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Religion
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Title: Couples faith in "jesus" gets them nothing but 2 dead kids and a murder charge(my title)
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/dead-pa-babys ... -divine-healing-025704613.html
Published: May 25, 2013
Author: j
Post Date: 2013-05-25 07:58:50 by PSUSA2
Keywords: None
Views: 2298
Comments: 177

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — After their 2-year-old son died of untreated pneumonia in 2009, faith-healing advocates Herbert and Catherine Schaible promised a judge they would not let another sick child go without medical care.

But now they've lost an 8-month-old to what a prosecutor called "eerily similar" circumstances. And instead of another involuntary manslaughter charge, they're now charged with third-degree murder.

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible, 44, told Philadelphia homicide detectives after their ninth child, Brandon, died in April. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."

The Schaibles were ordered held without bail Friday, two days after their arrest, although defense lawyers argued that they are neither a flight risk nor a danger to the community.

"He is incarcerated because of his faith," said lawyer Bobby Hoof, who described client Herbert Schaible's mindset as resolute.

"He's strong willed," Hoof said. "(Yet) he's mourning this son. He's hurting as any dad would."

The only people theoretically at risk are the couple's seven surviving children, who are now in foster care, the lawyers said.

A judge acknowledged that the couple had never missed a court date in the first case but said he worried that might change amid the more serious charges. And he feared they may have supporters who would harbor them.

"Throughout this country ... there are churches like the Schaibles' whose members and leaders probably don't think they did anything wrong and might be willing — to paraphrase the Schaibles' pastor — to put their interpretation of God's will above the law," Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said.

About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine, typically from highly treatable problems, said Shawn Francis Peters, a University of Wisconsin lecturer who has studied faith-healing deaths.

In Oregon, four couples from a faith-healing church have been prosecuted, the most recent in 2011 when a couple was sentenced to more than six years in prison for manslaughter in the death of their newborn son.

The state legislature that year removed faith healing as a defense to murder charges. Members of the Followers of Christ have consistently refused to speak with journalists.

Defense lawyer Mark Cogan declined to comment Friday on whether the legal actions have changed the practice of any church members. Some testified at the 2011 trial that they do get medical care.

At the Schaibles' sentencing in February 2011 in their son Kent's death, they agreed to follow terms of the 10-year probation, which included an order to get their children regular checkups and sick visits as needed. Catherine Schaible, 43, let her husband speak for her and never addressed the judge.

"It's very clear that the law says that religious freedom is trumped by the safety of a child," Common Pleas Judge Carolyn Engel Temin explained.

But a transcript of a later probation hearing that year shows probation officers were confused by their mandate to oversee the required medical care and felt powerless to carry it out. The family was not being monitored by child-welfare workers, who are more accustomed to dealing with medical compliance.

"I think that we all on the jury thought that it would not happen again, that whatever social and legal institutions needed to be involved in their situation would just take over ... and that the mandated visits would be robust enough that they would not be able to do this again," Vincent Bertolini, a former college professor who served as jury foreman at the Schaibles' first trial, said Friday.

That jury convicted the couple of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment.

Like other cases Peters has studied, the Schaibles belong to a small, insular circle of believers. Both are third-generation members and former teachers at their fundamentalist Christian church, the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia.

Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death. He did not return phone messages this month, but he told The Associated Press in 2011 that his church is not a cult, and he faulted officials for trying to force his members into "the flawed medical system," which he blamed for 100,000 deaths a year.

"These are people who have been brought up in these communities; their beliefs are reinforced every day," Peters said. "They're not trained intellectually to question these doctrines, where the rest of us might engage in critical inquiry, weighing the benefits of medicine versus the benefits of prayer."

A handful of families, including one in western Pennsylvania, have lost two children after attempts at faith healing, according to Peters, who wrote "When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children and the Law."

Peters isn't sure that courts have the means to prevent the problem, since such people don't fear legal punishment, only Judgment Day. Some believe death "is a good outcome," given their belief in the afterlife, he said.

"They don't want to harm their children. They're just in this particularly narrow — and very, very dangerous — way misguided about the potential of medical science," he said.

He believes that "empathetic" intervention, through dialogue between church and public health educators, could help some "get to a point where they allow their beliefs and practices to evolve."

But there's a risk that could backfire, and drive these communities further underground, he said.

For the Schaibles, a third-degree murder conviction could bring seven to 14 years in prison or more.

Said Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore: "Somebody is dead now as a result of what they did — or didn't do."

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#51. To: PSUSA2, abraxas (#50) (Edited)

If you had it Your Way, we'd all live forever. No one would die, no one would get sick, no one would get old, it would be a Pollyanna world, with hot naked willing women for all, sun shining and birds singing and blue skies forever.

Unfortunately, things don't work that way. People get sick, people die. But we can mitigate this to a certain degree. Your eeeeevilllll "big pharma" has done this.

Ask any doctor. There is always a risk with medicine, surgery, etc. This is not a risk-free world.

Golly whiz PSUSA, that was completely insane.

I was the one riding motorcycles up and down the street all night, not Abraxas.

Get your scapegoats in a row, man, before they turn on you!

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   14:02:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Dakmar (#49)

That's where you're wrong. The FDA has for years been certifying noxious superstitious substances as medicine.

I see. So if YOUR kid was sick from a disease which could easily be cured by taking amoxicillin, you'd prefer to allow that child to die a slow agonizing death just because you don't like the FDA.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2013-05-25   14:07:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: PSUSA2 (#50)

f you had it Your Way, we'd all live forever. No one would die, no one would get sick, no one would get old, it would be a Pollyanna world, with hot naked willing women for all, sun shining and birds singing and blue skies forever.

Ask any doctor.

I would say as Shakespeare said, "We are born to die."

No thanks, I don't need a doctor to tell me that death is inevitable.

Apparently, doctors are your new Jesus.

Big Pharma hasn't mitigated death for the most part. Shit, they haven't CURED a fricken' thing....of course, they are not in the business to cure anybody as that would impact sales. THEY ARE IN THE BUSINESS TO SELL DRUGS and business is good! To sell drugs, people must believe that they constantly NEED a pill for every frickin' thing. Create more ailments if necessary, but don't CURE anything.

America consumes 25% of all pharma drugs on the planet with only 5% of the population.....how's that working out for us? With all the "happy pills" getting popped we should be the happiest people on the planet....but no we are the most drug addicted and depressed.

The United States has the HIGHEST INFANT MORTALITY of all industrial nations. How's that working out for us? Don't you have an issue 11,300 babies dying within 24 hours of birth? Gee, if Big Pharma and doctors are so great why is the number increasing?

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:12:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Dakmar (#36)

Proper water and sewage systems have saved far more lives than pharmaceuticals, yet I see so few commercials for drainage tile. What gives?

It stops cholera.

Small pox and polio, not so much.

------------------------------------------

Death to the Draconians!!!

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   14:16:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: FormerLurker (#52) (Edited)

I see. So if YOUR kid was sick from a disease which could easily be cured by taking amoxicillin, you'd prefer to allow that child to die a slow agonizing death just because you don't like the FDA.

It's not political with me, I just don't trust anyone.

have you ever heard of Thalidomide? It seemed like a great idea in 1958!

People get fat from eating animal fat, ban butter, let them eat margerine!

Science is politicized, therefore compromised.

Real science will endure, since it is the fabric of the universe.

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   14:16:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: PSUSA2 (#54)

Small pox and polio, not so much.

Not been a polio outbreak in Indy for nigh on three years now.

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   14:23:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: abraxas (#53)

To sell drugs, people must believe that they constantly NEED a pill for every frickin' thing.

True.

This is abuse. It comes with money and political clout.

Ask your doctor if ____________________ is right for you.

Advertising like this should be illegal. In most countries, it is.

"The United States has the HIGHEST INFANT MORTALITY of all industrial nations"

FIRST DAY mortality.

-----------------------

...The problem in the U.S. is that many of the babies born here are premature. Miles said that means that most women, especially poor mothers, aren't getting enough access to medical care.

"We need to make sure particularly poor mothers get access to quality prenatal care and actually go to the doctor and go to the doctor on a regular basis," she said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57583237/u.s-has-highest-first-day-infant-mortality-out-of-industrialized-world-group-reports/

----------------------------------

How are the numbers broken down? By race? Drug abuse during pregnancy? It's not enough to just know how many died. We need to know why they died. Various groups are skewing the numbers here, most likely. So that might make it hard to find the real numbers, since it might not be politically correct.

------------------------------------------

Death to the Draconians!!!

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   14:28:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Dakmar, PSUSA2 (#56)

Small pox and polio, not so much.

Not been a polio outbreak in Indy for nigh on three years now.

Why haven't they found a CURE for small pox and polio in all these years? Wouldn't it be a devastating loss in revenue to cure?

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:29:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: abraxas (#58)

Why haven't they found a CURE for small pox and polio in all these years?

Polio only affects cripples, not the rich white country club set!

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   14:34:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: PSUSA2 (#57)

most women, especially poor mothers, aren't getting enough access to medical care.

If people don't go to the doctor because of religious belief and 12 children die in a year it's an epidemic. But, if poor mothers aren't getting medical care and 11,300 babies die it's acceptable?

You have heard of Medicaid? Every poor pregnant woman is eligible for prenatal care and delivery under Medicaid.

"Medicaid is a government sponsored health insurance program for low income families who have no medical insurance or inadequate insurance. All states offer Medicaid or a program similar to Medicaid to help pregnant women receive adequate prenatal and postpartum care. Medicaid also offers health insurance to seniors, children and people with disabilities."

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:37:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: abraxas, Dakmar, PSUSA2 (#58)

Why haven't they found a CURE for small pox and polio in all these years? Wouldn't it be a devastating loss in revenue to cure?

Sure it would, they'd rather peddle their vaccines.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2013-05-25   14:40:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: FormerLurker (#61) (Edited)

With just a little effort, I bet we could eradicate tuberculosis in the US.

We've done it before.

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   14:42:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: PSUSA2 (#23)

I see protecting citizens as a legitimate function of government

You must be thrilled with this then.

Ohio bans those dangerous dens of iniquity, Internet cafes

During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.

Bill D Berger  posted on  2013-05-25   14:44:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Dakmar (#55)

have you ever heard of Thalidomide? It seemed like a great idea in 1958!

What it comes down to is that there ARE safe and effective cures for SOME diseases. Not everything is safe however, so one needs to do some basic research into things, but stuff like penicillin and synthetic substitutes for those who are allergic to it are not the same as a "feel good" optional drug which may carry MUCH greater risk than simply taking nothing at all.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2013-05-25   14:44:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Dakmar (#62)

There might be one or two vaccines which DO work, but most of them are ineffective at best and carry MUCH greater risk than simply living a healthy life and eating right.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2013-05-25   14:48:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: FormerLurker (#64)

What it comes down to is that there ARE safe and effective cures for SOME diseases

Qualify it enough and anything is acceptable to someome who is afraid of being called unreasonable.

I don't happen to one of those people.

A FEW people don't mind being caged for BRIEF periods of time...

What fun!

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   14:48:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: abraxas (#60)

If people don't go to the doctor because of religious belief and 12 children die in a year it's an epidemic.

Who has used the word "epidemic", besides you? No one.

" You have heard of Medicaid? Every poor pregnant woman is eligible for prenatal care and delivery under Medicaid. "

Not if those poor pregnant women are more concerned about clubbing and drinking/getting high/booking an appearance on Maury to find the babydaddy.

------------------------------------------

Death to the Draconians!!!

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   14:49:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Dakmar (#66)

Qualify it enough and anything is acceptable to someome who is afraid of being called unreasonable

So if you have a bacterial infection which can be cured, you'll just let it go untreated because you're afraid of the antibiotic they might prescribe to treat it?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2013-05-25   14:49:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: PSUSA2 (#67)

Not if those poor pregnant women are more concerned about clubbing and drinking/getting high/booking an appearance on Maury to find the babydaddy.

So you're suggesting a state appointed guardian ride along?

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   14:52:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: PSUSA2 (#67)

Not if those poor pregnant women are more concerned about clubbing and drinking/getting high/booking an appearance on Maury to find the babydaddy.

Your source stated that infant mortality was on the rise because poor pregnant women do not have access......which is bullshit because they have access to Medicaid.

Now you are adding in some other non supported reasoning about individual choices and concerns about the issue. Face it, access is not the mitigating factor in rising infant mortality in this nation.

Again, if big pharma and the doctors are so wonderful.....why is infant mortality increasing? It's 11,300 at last count and continues to rise. Access to care is actually INCREASING with more women on Medicare, not decreasing. Try again.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:54:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: FormerLurker (#68)

So if you have a bacterial infection which can be cured, you'll just let it go untreated because you're afraid of the antibiotic they might prescribe to treat it?

Is it a blue fizzy antibiotic? Haven't you already established grounds to reject such?

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   14:55:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Dakmar, PSUSA2 (#69)

So you're suggesting a state appointed guardian ride along?

LOL!

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:56:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: abraxas (#70)

Your source stated that infant mortality was on the rise because poor pregnant women do not have access......which is bullshit because they have access to Medicaid.

Not to mention why we as a society are paying pregnant women to go out clubbing and/or drinking. Seems like an examination of priorities might be in order, to say the least.

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   14:58:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: abraxas (#58)

Why haven't they found a CURE for small pox and polio in all these years? Wouldn't it be a devastating loss in revenue to cure?

So, do you build your own car? Car makers rake in that eeeevillll revenue to provide a product. They should do it for free, right?

Or how about this, since a car is not needed and is a luxury.

Do you raise all of your own food? Either you have it or you die. So, that should be supplied for free? Those farmers are screwing you by charging eeeeevilll money.

If you've never had polio or smallpox because you've been vaccinated, that is better than a cure.

You all have been vaccinated, right? Those evil doctors injected you with that awful poison that you try and save others from, right? You'd deny people the same protection you (presumably) already have?

------------------------------------------

Death to the Draconians!!!

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:00:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Dakmar (#71)

If a person has pneumonia, is it better to just allow them to choke to death with fluid in the lungs, or give them an antibiotic which is known to cure said infection?

I'm not talking about a blue fizzy liquid some witch doctor brewed up, I'm talking about a widely accepted and effective medicine.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2013-05-25   15:01:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: PSUSA2, abraxas (#74)

If you've never had polio or smallpox because you've been vaccinated, that is better than a cure.

More than a few people have contracted polio FROM the vaccine itself, in fact it was the ONLY known cause of infection at the time.

The smallpox vaccine HAS led to massive epidemics throughout Europe leading to HUGE numbers of fatalities. Almost ALL of those people HAD been vaccinated.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2013-05-25   15:03:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: abraxas (#70)

Your source stated that infant mortality was on the rise because poor pregnant women do not have access......which is bullshit because they have access to Medicaid.

OK, bullshit proven. They have access, and I never disputed that fact. But you can't make anyone take advantage of that access. Right?

I know you have a hard time imagining this, but not everyone is as responsible as you. And NO, I do not mean that as an insult. I'm stating a fact. You blame doctors and "big pharma" for that. I don't. Not until it is proven that those poor women see the doctors in the first place.

If the first time a doctor sees a patient is in the delivery room, why blame him/her for the outcome?

------------------------------------------

Death to the Draconians!!!

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:08:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: FormerLurker (#76)

More than a few people have contracted polio FROM the vaccine itself, in fact it was the ONLY known cause of infection at the time.

I never said it was without risk.

If it wasn't for the vaccines, how many would have it now?

------------------------------------------

Death to the Draconians!!!

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:10:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: PSUSA2 (#74)

If you've never had polio or smallpox because you've been vaccinated, that is better than a cure.

How is it better than a cure? If there is a cure only those infected get the cure not everybody else who doesn't have it and would most likely NEVER get it. But, that's not a money maker.

Vaccination is a self perpetuating profit machine that has no intention whatsoever of finding any cure. Money is lost in eradication. Many people get vaccinated and still get the diseases, so there is an issue of efficacy as well.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   15:10:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: PSUSA2 (#77)

You blame doctors and "big pharma" for that. I don't. Not until it is proven that those poor women see the doctors in the first place.

If the first time a doctor sees a patient is in the delivery room, why blame him/her for the outcome?

Again, it is a FACT that infant mortality is now at 11,300 per year and steadily INCREASING. No decrease in doctors or big pharma. Proven and substantiated increases in women getting medical care via Medicaid rolls, proving your argument moot.

There is no evidence to support your claim of first visit at delivery....none.

Sticking with just the facts......we have more drugs, more doctors, more medical care and MORE DEATHS. These are just the facts. Dispute them with facts if you like, but have you considered that the 25% of people consuming the drugs that are dispenses by the doctors and big pharma is actually a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR IN DEATHS in the same way it contributes to rise in SUICIDE, HOMICIDE, OVERDOSE, and death by DRUG INTERACTIONS?

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   15:17:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: abraxas (#79)

How is it better than a cure?

Because damage already done is not reversible.

"Vaccination is a self perpetuating profit machine that has no intention whatsoever of finding any cure. "

You dont know what their intentions are. That doesn't change the fact that you and others that hate vaccines are alive, maybe or probably because of those same vaccines.

------------------------------------------

Death to the Draconians!!!

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:21:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: PSUSA2 (#81)

"Vaccination is a self perpetuating profit machine that has no intention whatsoever of finding any cure. "

There is no PROFIT in CURE. Do you not comprehend this fact?

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   15:26:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: abraxas (#80)

Proven and substantiated increases in women getting medical care via Medicaid rolls, proving your argument moot.

No it doesn't.

Medicaid is expanding. OK. Show where it's expanding for prenatal care for poor women. But even that won't prove your case. You'd have to show that these 11,000+ dead babies were from women that took advantage of this care. I say it's much more likely that they never took advantage of this prenatal care.

"25% of people consuming the drugs that are dispenses by the doctors and big pharma is actually a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR IN DEATHS"

So, now they are mere "contributing factors"? How many other factors are there?

I thought "big pharma" was the "big cause" of all these deaths. Which is it?

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Death to the Draconians!!!

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:31:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: PSUSA2 (#83)

I see the problem, Medicaid patients should be forced to take their prescriptions. It will save the taxpayers billions in the long run.

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   15:40:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: PSUSA2 (#0)

Looks like murder by negligence to me.

I've had pneumonia before. Both as a child and adult. It is very treatable.

These parents went against God, not doing all in their power to save their babies.

______________________________________

Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) (It's a more positive message)

titorite  posted on  2013-05-25   15:47:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: PSUSA2 (#83)

Show where it's expanding for prenatal care for poor women.

Here is an abstract from one of hundreds of studies noting the increase of access and the benefits for poor women on Medicaid:

Abstract

OBJECTIVES: Over 80% of US states have implemented expansions in prenatal services for Medicaid-enrolled women, including case management, nutritional and psychosocial counseling, health education, and home visiting. This study evaluates the effect of Washington State's expansion of such services on prenatal care use and low-birthweight rates. METHODS: The change in prenatal care use and low-birthweight rates among Washington's Medicaid-enrolled pregnant women before and after initiation of expanded prenatal services was compared with the change in these outcomes in Colorado, a control state. RESULTS: The percentage of expected prenatal visits completed increased significantly, from 84% to 87%, in both states. Washington's low-birthweight rate decreased (7.1% to 6.4%, P = .12), while Colorado's rate increased slightly (10.4% to 10.6%, P = .74). Washington's improvement was largely due to decreases in low-birthweight rates for medically high-risk women (18.0% to 13.7%, P = .01, for adults; 22.5% to 11.5%, P = .03, for teenagers), especially those with preexisting medical conditions. CONCLUSIONS: A statewide Medicaid-sponsored support service and case management program was associated with a decrease in the low-birthweight rate of medically high-risk women.

I can keep posting these all day. Medicaid for pregnant women is and has been increasing substantially while the INFANT MORTALITY RATE INCREASES. Again, more care, more doctors, more drugs = MORE DEATHS. What part of the equation are you having difficulty comprehending today?

Read the full paper at the link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1508570/

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   15:49:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Dakmar (#84)

I see the problem, Medicaid patients should be forced to take their prescriptions. It will save the taxpayers billions in the long run.

So, let me get this straight.

Medicaid is available for poor women. I wont get into whether or not they actually use it. Let's say they do.

What good does it do if treatment is not followed? Who was it that sang "I did it myyyyyyyy wayyyyyyy!" Elvis? Sinatra? Both?

Why just go into a doctors office and say "WazzzUP muhfugga! Ah doan wan' no scripshun that doan get muh high! Bye!"

It has nothing to do with "force". Either follow professional advise or face the consequences. It seems like people want to do it their own way without any consequences.

------------------------------------------

Death to the Draconians!!!

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:52:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: PSUSA2 (#87)

It has nothing to do with "force". Either follow professional advise or face the consequences. It seems like people want to do it their own way without any consequences.

I am forced at the risk of incarceration to pay for said healthcare, seems the least I should expect is an honest attempt at it.

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   15:55:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: abraxas (#86)

I can keep posting these all day. Medicaid for pregnant women is and has been increasing substantially while the INFANT MORTALITY RATE INCREASES. Again, more care, more doctors, more drugs = MORE DEATHS. What part of the equation are you having difficulty comprehending today?

Again, you need to show that those 11,000 dead babies actually died when under a physicians prenatal care. You are assuming that is the case, and that doctors are being incompetent (or worse).

That medicaid is available for this care - no one disputes. That more money is being spent on this care- no one disputes.

Those deaths need to be a separate topic for study to find out why this is happening. Just saying that "more care, more doctors, more drugs = MORE DEATHS" proves nothing about what caused those deaths.

------------------------------------------

Death to the Draconians!!!

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   16:02:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: PSUSA2 (#87)

Either follow professional advise or face the consequences

Or follow it and face the consequences:

A 2008 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association showed that about 2.2 million people age 57 to 85 were taking potentially dangerous combinations of drugs.

A report this month by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that deaths from accidental drug interactions rose 68 percent between 1999 and 2004, continuing a steady climb since the early 1990s. Unintentional drug poisonings accounted for nearly 20,000 deaths in 2004, said the CDC, making the problem now the second-leading cause of accidental death in the United States, after automobile accidents.

For the first time in nearly a century, automobile accidents are no longer the nation’s leading cause of accidental deaths, according to a major report released Tuesday by the National Center for Health Statistics. The new number one killer is drugs—not smack, crystal meth or any other stepped-on menace sold in urban alleyways or trailer parks, but bright, shiny pills prescribed by doctors, approved by the government, manufactured by pharmaceutical companies and sold to the consumer as “medicine.”

Three quarters of the poisoning are unintentional—likely the result of overdoses rather than drug interactions or allergic reactions—and some 13 percent are suicides.

In 2009, for the first time, emergency-room visits resulting from prescription drug ODs topped 1 million, with some 343,000 due to opiate analgesics like oxy, 363,000 due to benzodiazepines and other sedatives, and 22,000 due to stimulants.

"Women were known to use less lethal means until the SSRl antidepressants hit the market. But on Prozac and Paxil, women committed 40% of the suicides - many were strikingly violent and clearly leaving no means for rescue." 'PROZAC Panacea or Pandora' by Ann Blake Tracy PhD, page 280

"Because suicidal tendencies are a frequent characteristic of depression, perhaps one of the most serious problems associated with antidepressants is the potential for drug overdose. The potential for suicide caused by the very medication prescribed to prevent it, is further enhanced by the synergistic interaction of the antidepressives with alcohol, barbiturates, and other central nervous system depressants. A glance through the PDR indicates that the quantity and the magnitude of the dangers associated with Elavil are equally present with the other antidepressants." 'Get Healthy Now' by Gary Null, page 215

"GULF WAR VETERANS: Captain Joyce Riley, who has headed the battle in exposing Gulf War Syndrome, has noted that approximately 80- 90% of the Gulf War vets are now on or have been offered one of the SSRI antidepressants. As a result many have had their lives turned upside down with others committing suicide or murder/suicide". 'PROZAC Panacea or Pandora' by Ann Blake Tracy PhD, page 15

Some consequences......

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   16:05:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: PSUSA2 (#89)

Just saying that "more care, more doctors, more drugs = MORE DEATHS" proves nothing about what caused those deaths.

Not "just saying" but posting articles on the topic. Increase in infant mortality correlates with more prescription drug use and abuse. It's a fact. So data does indicate MORE DRUGS is actually causing MORE DEATH in all age groups, not just newborns.

More care is a fact but it is NOT DECREASING INFANT MORTALITY in the first 24 hours. Medicaid increases do show some improvement for the first year, but not the first 24 hours where the numbers are INCREASING.

" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11

"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   16:09:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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