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Religion
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Title: Couples faith in "jesus" gets them nothing but 2 dead kids and a murder charge(my title)
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/dead-pa-babys ... -divine-healing-025704613.html
Published: May 25, 2013
Author: j
Post Date: 2013-05-25 07:58:50 by PSUSA2
Keywords: None
Views: 2375
Comments: 177

PHILADELPHIA (AP) — After their 2-year-old son died of untreated pneumonia in 2009, faith-healing advocates Herbert and Catherine Schaible promised a judge they would not let another sick child go without medical care.

But now they've lost an 8-month-old to what a prosecutor called "eerily similar" circumstances. And instead of another involuntary manslaughter charge, they're now charged with third-degree murder.

"We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible, 44, told Philadelphia homicide detectives after their ninth child, Brandon, died in April. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs."

The Schaibles were ordered held without bail Friday, two days after their arrest, although defense lawyers argued that they are neither a flight risk nor a danger to the community.

"He is incarcerated because of his faith," said lawyer Bobby Hoof, who described client Herbert Schaible's mindset as resolute.

"He's strong willed," Hoof said. "(Yet) he's mourning this son. He's hurting as any dad would."

The only people theoretically at risk are the couple's seven surviving children, who are now in foster care, the lawyers said.

A judge acknowledged that the couple had never missed a court date in the first case but said he worried that might change amid the more serious charges. And he feared they may have supporters who would harbor them.

"Throughout this country ... there are churches like the Schaibles' whose members and leaders probably don't think they did anything wrong and might be willing — to paraphrase the Schaibles' pastor — to put their interpretation of God's will above the law," Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said.

About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine, typically from highly treatable problems, said Shawn Francis Peters, a University of Wisconsin lecturer who has studied faith-healing deaths.

In Oregon, four couples from a faith-healing church have been prosecuted, the most recent in 2011 when a couple was sentenced to more than six years in prison for manslaughter in the death of their newborn son.

The state legislature that year removed faith healing as a defense to murder charges. Members of the Followers of Christ have consistently refused to speak with journalists.

Defense lawyer Mark Cogan declined to comment Friday on whether the legal actions have changed the practice of any church members. Some testified at the 2011 trial that they do get medical care.

At the Schaibles' sentencing in February 2011 in their son Kent's death, they agreed to follow terms of the 10-year probation, which included an order to get their children regular checkups and sick visits as needed. Catherine Schaible, 43, let her husband speak for her and never addressed the judge.

"It's very clear that the law says that religious freedom is trumped by the safety of a child," Common Pleas Judge Carolyn Engel Temin explained.

But a transcript of a later probation hearing that year shows probation officers were confused by their mandate to oversee the required medical care and felt powerless to carry it out. The family was not being monitored by child-welfare workers, who are more accustomed to dealing with medical compliance.

"I think that we all on the jury thought that it would not happen again, that whatever social and legal institutions needed to be involved in their situation would just take over ... and that the mandated visits would be robust enough that they would not be able to do this again," Vincent Bertolini, a former college professor who served as jury foreman at the Schaibles' first trial, said Friday.

That jury convicted the couple of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment.

Like other cases Peters has studied, the Schaibles belong to a small, insular circle of believers. Both are third-generation members and former teachers at their fundamentalist Christian church, the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia.

Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death. He did not return phone messages this month, but he told The Associated Press in 2011 that his church is not a cult, and he faulted officials for trying to force his members into "the flawed medical system," which he blamed for 100,000 deaths a year.

"These are people who have been brought up in these communities; their beliefs are reinforced every day," Peters said. "They're not trained intellectually to question these doctrines, where the rest of us might engage in critical inquiry, weighing the benefits of medicine versus the benefits of prayer."

A handful of families, including one in western Pennsylvania, have lost two children after attempts at faith healing, according to Peters, who wrote "When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children and the Law."

Peters isn't sure that courts have the means to prevent the problem, since such people don't fear legal punishment, only Judgment Day. Some believe death "is a good outcome," given their belief in the afterlife, he said.

"They don't want to harm their children. They're just in this particularly narrow — and very, very dangerous — way misguided about the potential of medical science," he said.

He believes that "empathetic" intervention, through dialogue between church and public health educators, could help some "get to a point where they allow their beliefs and practices to evolve."

But there's a risk that could backfire, and drive these communities further underground, he said.

For the Schaibles, a third-degree murder conviction could bring seven to 14 years in prison or more.

Said Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore: "Somebody is dead now as a result of what they did — or didn't do."

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 87.

#25. To: PSUSA2 (#0)

About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine,

A dozen........that must be an epidemic.

6,700 die in automobiles. OUTLAW CHILDREN IN CARS!!!! 1,000 drown to death.......OUTLAW CHILDREN AND WATER!!!! 540 die the horrible death by fire.....OUTLAW ALL FIRE!!! 970 die of unintentional poisoning and 133 intentional is this close to an epidemic yet? 1260 die of unintentional suffocation and strangulation and 740 from intentional suffocation and strangulation. 138 from firearm accidents and 2200 firearm homicides and 680 firearm suicides.

Thousands more children die from the cure after SEEKING medical "expertise" than the dozen that die from not seeking it......do they matter?

Now for medicated children.....25 percent of children in the U.S. were on regular medication. 45 million children are on asthma medications, 24 million are on ADHD medications, almost 10 million are on antidepressants with another six and a half million on other antipsychotics. Then there are the antihypertensives, the sleep aids, the medications for Type 2 diabetes and high cholesterol, and on and on. 45 Million kids are popping pills and going to the doctor...aren't your relieved! Nothing to see here Looky Lou, keep your eye on the 12 that didn't get medical attention while 45 million keep popping pills that kill thousands under doctor supervision.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   12:58:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: abraxas (#25)

Thousands more children die from the cure after SEEKING medical "expertise" than the dozen that die from not seeking it......do they matter?

Really?

Don't look at the child mortality rates of the 1800's and early 1900's. You'll REALLY fly off the handle if you did that.

Those medicines (and vaccines lol) save kids lives.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   13:27:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: PSUSA2 (#32) (Edited)

Those medicines (and vaccines lol) save kids lives.

Look at the studies, most of the anti-psychotic medications "save" no more than placebos and are no more effective than placebos, which brings us full circle to "faith healing" in effectiveness. Give 'em to millions of children!

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   13:31:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: abraxas (#37)

Look at the studies, most of the anti-psychotic medications

I didn't say that was right, did I?

We're talking different kinds of medicines here.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   13:39:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: PSUSA2 (#43)

We're talking different kinds of medicines here.

Shit, 45 MILLION are medicated after seeking medical advice for everything from restless leg syndrome to bi-polar disorders......four bus loads of children are taken the he ER EVERYDAY for overdose, adverse reactions, poisoning.

That's 165 a day.....a bit more that a dozen a year and these kiddies are SEEKING medical attention. You do the math. The difference is that the dozen are faith in religion (gasp! Oh de humanity!) and the 45 million are faith in Big Pharma.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   13:46:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: abraxas (#48)

, 45 MILLION are medicated after seeking medical advice for everything from restless leg syndrome to bi-polar disorders......four bus loads of children are taken the he ER EVERYDAY for overdose, adverse reactions, poisoning.

That's 165 a day.....a bit more that a dozen a year and these kiddies are SEEKING medical attention. You do the math. The difference is that the dozen are faith in religion (gasp! Oh de humanity!) and the 45 million are faith in Big Pharma.

You throw numbers around like a gun control advocate would.

I know. If you had it Your Way, we'd all live forever. No one would die, no one would get sick, no one would get old, it would be a Pollyanna world, with hot naked willing women for all, sun shining and birds singing and blue skies forever.

Unfortunately, things don't work that way. People get sick, people die. But we can mitigate this to a certain degree. Your eeeeevilllll "big pharma" has done this.

Ask any doctor. There is always a risk with medicine, surgery, etc. This is not a risk-free world.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   13:58:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: PSUSA2 (#50)

f you had it Your Way, we'd all live forever. No one would die, no one would get sick, no one would get old, it would be a Pollyanna world, with hot naked willing women for all, sun shining and birds singing and blue skies forever.

Ask any doctor.

I would say as Shakespeare said, "We are born to die."

No thanks, I don't need a doctor to tell me that death is inevitable.

Apparently, doctors are your new Jesus.

Big Pharma hasn't mitigated death for the most part. Shit, they haven't CURED a fricken' thing....of course, they are not in the business to cure anybody as that would impact sales. THEY ARE IN THE BUSINESS TO SELL DRUGS and business is good! To sell drugs, people must believe that they constantly NEED a pill for every frickin' thing. Create more ailments if necessary, but don't CURE anything.

America consumes 25% of all pharma drugs on the planet with only 5% of the population.....how's that working out for us? With all the "happy pills" getting popped we should be the happiest people on the planet....but no we are the most drug addicted and depressed.

The United States has the HIGHEST INFANT MORTALITY of all industrial nations. How's that working out for us? Don't you have an issue 11,300 babies dying within 24 hours of birth? Gee, if Big Pharma and doctors are so great why is the number increasing?

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:12:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: abraxas (#53)

To sell drugs, people must believe that they constantly NEED a pill for every frickin' thing.

True.

This is abuse. It comes with money and political clout.

Ask your doctor if ____________________ is right for you.

Advertising like this should be illegal. In most countries, it is.

"The United States has the HIGHEST INFANT MORTALITY of all industrial nations"

FIRST DAY mortality.

-----------------------

...The problem in the U.S. is that many of the babies born here are premature. Miles said that means that most women, especially poor mothers, aren't getting enough access to medical care.

"We need to make sure particularly poor mothers get access to quality prenatal care and actually go to the doctor and go to the doctor on a regular basis," she said.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-204_162-57583237/u.s-has-highest-first-day-infant-mortality-out-of-industrialized-world-group-reports/

----------------------------------

How are the numbers broken down? By race? Drug abuse during pregnancy? It's not enough to just know how many died. We need to know why they died. Various groups are skewing the numbers here, most likely. So that might make it hard to find the real numbers, since it might not be politically correct.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   14:28:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: PSUSA2 (#57)

most women, especially poor mothers, aren't getting enough access to medical care.

If people don't go to the doctor because of religious belief and 12 children die in a year it's an epidemic. But, if poor mothers aren't getting medical care and 11,300 babies die it's acceptable?

You have heard of Medicaid? Every poor pregnant woman is eligible for prenatal care and delivery under Medicaid.

"Medicaid is a government sponsored health insurance program for low income families who have no medical insurance or inadequate insurance. All states offer Medicaid or a program similar to Medicaid to help pregnant women receive adequate prenatal and postpartum care. Medicaid also offers health insurance to seniors, children and people with disabilities."

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:37:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: abraxas (#60)

If people don't go to the doctor because of religious belief and 12 children die in a year it's an epidemic.

Who has used the word "epidemic", besides you? No one.

" You have heard of Medicaid? Every poor pregnant woman is eligible for prenatal care and delivery under Medicaid. "

Not if those poor pregnant women are more concerned about clubbing and drinking/getting high/booking an appearance on Maury to find the babydaddy.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   14:49:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: PSUSA2 (#67)

Not if those poor pregnant women are more concerned about clubbing and drinking/getting high/booking an appearance on Maury to find the babydaddy.

Your source stated that infant mortality was on the rise because poor pregnant women do not have access......which is bullshit because they have access to Medicaid.

Now you are adding in some other non supported reasoning about individual choices and concerns about the issue. Face it, access is not the mitigating factor in rising infant mortality in this nation.

Again, if big pharma and the doctors are so wonderful.....why is infant mortality increasing? It's 11,300 at last count and continues to rise. Access to care is actually INCREASING with more women on Medicare, not decreasing. Try again.

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   14:54:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: abraxas (#70)

Your source stated that infant mortality was on the rise because poor pregnant women do not have access......which is bullshit because they have access to Medicaid.

OK, bullshit proven. They have access, and I never disputed that fact. But you can't make anyone take advantage of that access. Right?

I know you have a hard time imagining this, but not everyone is as responsible as you. And NO, I do not mean that as an insult. I'm stating a fact. You blame doctors and "big pharma" for that. I don't. Not until it is proven that those poor women see the doctors in the first place.

If the first time a doctor sees a patient is in the delivery room, why blame him/her for the outcome?

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:08:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: PSUSA2 (#77)

You blame doctors and "big pharma" for that. I don't. Not until it is proven that those poor women see the doctors in the first place.

If the first time a doctor sees a patient is in the delivery room, why blame him/her for the outcome?

Again, it is a FACT that infant mortality is now at 11,300 per year and steadily INCREASING. No decrease in doctors or big pharma. Proven and substantiated increases in women getting medical care via Medicaid rolls, proving your argument moot.

There is no evidence to support your claim of first visit at delivery....none.

Sticking with just the facts......we have more drugs, more doctors, more medical care and MORE DEATHS. These are just the facts. Dispute them with facts if you like, but have you considered that the 25% of people consuming the drugs that are dispenses by the doctors and big pharma is actually a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR IN DEATHS in the same way it contributes to rise in SUICIDE, HOMICIDE, OVERDOSE, and death by DRUG INTERACTIONS?

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25   15:17:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: abraxas (#80)

Proven and substantiated increases in women getting medical care via Medicaid rolls, proving your argument moot.

No it doesn't.

Medicaid is expanding. OK. Show where it's expanding for prenatal care for poor women. But even that won't prove your case. You'd have to show that these 11,000+ dead babies were from women that took advantage of this care. I say it's much more likely that they never took advantage of this prenatal care.

"25% of people consuming the drugs that are dispenses by the doctors and big pharma is actually a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR IN DEATHS"

So, now they are mere "contributing factors"? How many other factors are there?

I thought "big pharma" was the "big cause" of all these deaths. Which is it?

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:31:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: PSUSA2 (#83)

I see the problem, Medicaid patients should be forced to take their prescriptions. It will save the taxpayers billions in the long run.

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25   15:40:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Dakmar (#84)

I see the problem, Medicaid patients should be forced to take their prescriptions. It will save the taxpayers billions in the long run.

So, let me get this straight.

Medicaid is available for poor women. I wont get into whether or not they actually use it. Let's say they do.

What good does it do if treatment is not followed? Who was it that sang "I did it myyyyyyyy wayyyyyyy!" Elvis? Sinatra? Both?

Why just go into a doctors office and say "WazzzUP muhfugga! Ah doan wan' no scripshun that doan get muh high! Bye!"

It has nothing to do with "force". Either follow professional advise or face the consequences. It seems like people want to do it their own way without any consequences.

PSUSA2  posted on  2013-05-25   15:52:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 87.

#88. To: PSUSA2 (#87)

It has nothing to do with "force". Either follow professional advise or face the consequences. It seems like people want to do it their own way without any consequences.

I am forced at the risk of incarceration to pay for said healthcare, seems the least I should expect is an honest attempt at it.

Dakmar  posted on  2013-05-25 15:55:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: PSUSA2 (#87)

Either follow professional advise or face the consequences

Or follow it and face the consequences:

A 2008 study in the Journal of the American Medical Association showed that about 2.2 million people age 57 to 85 were taking potentially dangerous combinations of drugs.

A report this month by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention found that deaths from accidental drug interactions rose 68 percent between 1999 and 2004, continuing a steady climb since the early 1990s. Unintentional drug poisonings accounted for nearly 20,000 deaths in 2004, said the CDC, making the problem now the second-leading cause of accidental death in the United States, after automobile accidents.

For the first time in nearly a century, automobile accidents are no longer the nation’s leading cause of accidental deaths, according to a major report released Tuesday by the National Center for Health Statistics. The new number one killer is drugs—not smack, crystal meth or any other stepped-on menace sold in urban alleyways or trailer parks, but bright, shiny pills prescribed by doctors, approved by the government, manufactured by pharmaceutical companies and sold to the consumer as “medicine.”

Three quarters of the poisoning are unintentional—likely the result of overdoses rather than drug interactions or allergic reactions—and some 13 percent are suicides.

In 2009, for the first time, emergency-room visits resulting from prescription drug ODs topped 1 million, with some 343,000 due to opiate analgesics like oxy, 363,000 due to benzodiazepines and other sedatives, and 22,000 due to stimulants.

"Women were known to use less lethal means until the SSRl antidepressants hit the market. But on Prozac and Paxil, women committed 40% of the suicides - many were strikingly violent and clearly leaving no means for rescue." 'PROZAC Panacea or Pandora' by Ann Blake Tracy PhD, page 280

"Because suicidal tendencies are a frequent characteristic of depression, perhaps one of the most serious problems associated with antidepressants is the potential for drug overdose. The potential for suicide caused by the very medication prescribed to prevent it, is further enhanced by the synergistic interaction of the antidepressives with alcohol, barbiturates, and other central nervous system depressants. A glance through the PDR indicates that the quantity and the magnitude of the dangers associated with Elavil are equally present with the other antidepressants." 'Get Healthy Now' by Gary Null, page 215

"GULF WAR VETERANS: Captain Joyce Riley, who has headed the battle in exposing Gulf War Syndrome, has noted that approximately 80- 90% of the Gulf War vets are now on or have been offered one of the SSRI antidepressants. As a result many have had their lives turned upside down with others committing suicide or murder/suicide". 'PROZAC Panacea or Pandora' by Ann Blake Tracy PhD, page 15

Some consequences......

abraxas  posted on  2013-05-25 16:05:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 87.

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