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Title: Couples faith in "jesus" gets them nothing but 2 dead kids and a murder charge(my title)
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URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/dead-pa-babys ... -divine-healing-025704613.html
Published: May 25, 2013
Author: j
Post Date: 2013-05-25 07:58:50 by PSUSA2
Keywords: None
Views: 2816
Comments: 177
PHILADELPHIA (AP) — After their 2-year-old son died of untreated pneumonia in 2009, faith-healing advocates Herbert and Catherine Schaible promised a judge they would not let another sick child go without medical care. But now they've lost an 8-month-old to what a prosecutor called "eerily similar" circumstances. And instead of another involuntary manslaughter charge, they're now charged with third-degree murder. "We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible, 44, told Philadelphia homicide detectives after their ninth child, Brandon, died in April. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs." The Schaibles were ordered held without bail Friday, two days after their arrest, although defense lawyers argued that they are neither a flight risk nor a danger to the community. "He is incarcerated because of his faith," said lawyer Bobby Hoof, who described client Herbert Schaible's mindset as resolute. "He's strong willed," Hoof said. "(Yet) he's mourning this son. He's hurting as any dad would." The only people theoretically at risk are the couple's seven surviving children, who are now in foster care, the lawyers said. A judge acknowledged that the couple had never missed a court date in the first case but said he worried that might change amid the more serious charges. And he feared they may have supporters who would harbor them. "Throughout this country ... there are churches like the Schaibles' whose members and leaders probably don't think they did anything wrong and might be willing — to paraphrase the Schaibles' pastor — to put their interpretation of God's will above the law," Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said. About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine, typically from highly treatable problems, said Shawn Francis Peters, a University of Wisconsin lecturer who has studied faith-healing deaths. In Oregon, four couples from a faith-healing church have been prosecuted, the most recent in 2011 when a couple was sentenced to more than six years in prison for manslaughter in the death of their newborn son. The state legislature that year removed faith healing as a defense to murder charges. Members of the Followers of Christ have consistently refused to speak with journalists. Defense lawyer Mark Cogan declined to comment Friday on whether the legal actions have changed the practice of any church members. Some testified at the 2011 trial that they do get medical care. At the Schaibles' sentencing in February 2011 in their son Kent's death, they agreed to follow terms of the 10-year probation, which included an order to get their children regular checkups and sick visits as needed. Catherine Schaible, 43, let her husband speak for her and never addressed the judge. "It's very clear that the law says that religious freedom is trumped by the safety of a child," Common Pleas Judge Carolyn Engel Temin explained. But a transcript of a later probation hearing that year shows probation officers were confused by their mandate to oversee the required medical care and felt powerless to carry it out. The family was not being monitored by child-welfare workers, who are more accustomed to dealing with medical compliance. "I think that we all on the jury thought that it would not happen again, that whatever social and legal institutions needed to be involved in their situation would just take over ... and that the mandated visits would be robust enough that they would not be able to do this again," Vincent Bertolini, a former college professor who served as jury foreman at the Schaibles' first trial, said Friday. That jury convicted the couple of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment. Like other cases Peters has studied, the Schaibles belong to a small, insular circle of believers. Both are third-generation members and former teachers at their fundamentalist Christian church, the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia. Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death. He did not return phone messages this month, but he told The Associated Press in 2011 that his church is not a cult, and he faulted officials for trying to force his members into "the flawed medical system," which he blamed for 100,000 deaths a year. "These are people who have been brought up in these communities; their beliefs are reinforced every day," Peters said. "They're not trained intellectually to question these doctrines, where the rest of us might engage in critical inquiry, weighing the benefits of medicine versus the benefits of prayer." A handful of families, including one in western Pennsylvania, have lost two children after attempts at faith healing, according to Peters, who wrote "When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children and the Law." Peters isn't sure that courts have the means to prevent the problem, since such people don't fear legal punishment, only Judgment Day. Some believe death "is a good outcome," given their belief in the afterlife, he said. "They don't want to harm their children. They're just in this particularly narrow — and very, very dangerous — way misguided about the potential of medical science," he said. He believes that "empathetic" intervention, through dialogue between church and public health educators, could help some "get to a point where they allow their beliefs and practices to evolve." But there's a risk that could backfire, and drive these communities further underground, he said. For the Schaibles, a third-degree murder conviction could bring seven to 14 years in prison or more. Said Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore: "Somebody is dead now as a result of what they did — or didn't do."
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#138. To: PSUSA2 (#132)
Infection and medical error variables~ While you continue to deny that the care itself has any blame, I offer you more statistics on the "best" medical care in the WORLD and the highest infant mortality rate in the industrialized world: You are 33,000 times more likely to die from hospital error than a plane crash. Your chance of death by hospital error is 1 in 300 1 in 5 patients suffer harm due to medical errors. Deaths per year due to medical error and infections: 200,000 What do mistakes in hospitals cost each year: $17 Billion (not counting funeral costs) How many infections are contracted in hospitals each year: 1.7 MILLION and this is the government number using select data from 2002 which is disputed as MUCH higher. How man die from infections: 100,000 Some date for the much higher number: By June, 2007, 2.4 percent of all patients had MRSA infections, according to the largest study of its kind, which was published in the American Journal of Infection Control. That would mean 880,000 victims a year for just ONE type of infection. Hospital contracted infections kill more people than AIDS, breast cancer, and auto accidents. America has thrown more money, more drugs, and more access to care out on the table while the deaths increase. " If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
That's not what I'm doing. I'm focused on the 11,000 dead babies that you brought up. I think we all know things are messed up when it comes to health care here. I haven't verified your stats, but I'm not arguing against them either. Big pharma is really no different than big government. What you have done is you stated that 11,000 babies are dead. Then you go on about big pharma. I'm focused on your 11,000 dead babies. You have yet to provide a link between those dead babies and the prenatal care given to those babies. I'm questioning whether or not they received that care. Now, I know health care is a racket. I knew that 3 decades ago when I read thru an itemized hospital bill. The fuckers charged the insurance company $20 for a fucking tylenol 3. I still remember that. Who knows how much they're charging now. I also know that because of advances people are living now when they would have died in the past. What's needed is balance. Everything is out of balance, not just health care, ------------------------------------------ Yes, it is. It'd be a different story if they kept their religious crap to themselves. But they don't. It affects everyone, believer or not, because they believe in spreading the misery. I'd love to see all 3 abrahamic faiths be destroyed. But that doesn't mean I'd love to see those that adhere to those beliefs be destroyed. That's because I used to be one. If I started out as an atheist, I'd probably be even more vicious. ------------------------------------------ Two decades ago we didn't have 30+ million dirt poor illegal aliens living in the country who do not go to doctors for prenatal visits. I'm not saying you are not correct in your observation but I have to wonder whether the illegal alien population has skewed the numbers for the worse - not only in this area but in all areas. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! I find this a difficult subject. Children have a right to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness just like everyone else so common sense says that the government should protect these rights by forcing the parents to treat illnesses that can be treated. The problem lies with the adage, "give an inch, take a mile." That is the government. If you allow the authoritarian nannies in government to overrule the decisions of the parents in this area, they use that as precedence to overrule the parents in other areas. We see that today and it is getting worse all the time. If the price of keeping the government out of raising my children at the point of a gun is allowing other parents to put their children's life at risk, then those children can take their chances. Until such a time that we can figure out how to stop the nanny state from using issues like this as a basis to try and control all aspects of parenthood, I am on the side of the parents, no matter how horrendous I may view their decisions. I do not say that with any happiness though and it makes me angry that the criminal syndicate known as the Republican-Democratic parties puts me in this position. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! You and me both. I don't think they have brought as much destruction and loss of life as the government worshipers have but they are a close second. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! Conservatives whimper and whine about "The Nanny State" - but should the state be able to REQUIRE parents who believe in faith healthy, who preumably have been helped by faith healing themselves, to violate their children's religious upbringing and resort to the latest medical technology? It's easy for outsiders to answer Yes when children are involved. But the same Conservatives complained when The Nanny State wanted to require all little girls to get that HPV vaccination (and it appears that there was a risk in that procedure). They complained when schools offered older kids condoms. Some got uptight about fluride in the water, although its benefit to children seems unassailable. Some of the court cases about medical decisions involving children in recent years have including compelling parents to submit the children, admittedly stricken with life-threatening ailments, to risky and traumatizing hospital treatments including surgery, radiation, and strong medications. Not all these stories have happy endings. I think in some cases the treatments that were compelled in one year were later found to be ineffective or otherwise dropped by the medical profession in a subsequent year.
No it wouldn't be a different story. You expect of others what you do not do not expect of yourself. You don't keep you religious crap to yourself. Instead, you fling your ass hurt over your experiences far and wide and create ridiculous reasoning for your "vicious" behavior. You hypocritically spread your misery while whining about other doing the same; sniveling about the "affect" on everyone while you affect others negatively. It's painfully comical to see you act as you claim to disdain in others with your "if's" to justify your personal spread of misery. A different story arises when the author creates one and takes responsibility for the story created. " If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
What benefit is "unassailable"? Prove it. " If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
Agreed. "If the price of keeping the government out of raising my children at the point of a gun is allowing other parents to put their children's life at risk, then those children can take their chances. " Disagreed. No one should have to take their chances, because kids are not given a chance when parents think their 'god' is a doctor. It's is this lack of balance that is the problem here. I've heard the saying "hard cases make bad law". It's true. Government unrestrained will use those hard cases to get their way. But that doesn't mean that there is no need for government, just less centralized government. ------------------------------------------ I express my opinions, same as everyone else. You may not like my opinions, but I don't care. " sniveling about the "affect" on everyone while you affect others negatively. " Nonsense. If I affect others negatively, it's because they arent strong in their faith. If they were faithful, nothing I would say could bother them. If they are bothered ny anything I say, it's because I hit close to home. Here's a little secret. It was this anger I felt at others questioning my True Christian faith that made me question it. Where did that anger come from? Why was I mad, just because someone disagreed with me? That started the journey that ended with me telling the kike god, "jesus" and the "holy spirit" to go fuck themselves. ------------------------------------------ ping to 147
------------------------------------------ I agree, but that is the way of government. Those who join it and move up its ranks are the authoritarian nannies that want to mind everyone's business and use the force of government to do their bidding. Those who support the nanny staters also want to mind everyone's business while at the same time demanding that no one minds their business. Due to this reality there will always be an imbalance and because of that imbalance the only protection we have is not giving them the inch they need. But I understand where you are coming from and as I said, I am not happy about my conclusion. Calling Ron Paul an isolationist is like calling your neighbor a hermit because he doesn't come over and break your window - unknown I WITHDRAW MY CONSENT! You Go Girl! ;-)
You've GOT to be shitting me?!? Yeah, I want to drink more fluoride.....that stuff is industrial poison, the claim that it reduces cavities is ridiculous and without merit. If you have the wrong variables, you won't get a right solution.
#139. To: abraxas (#136)
(Edited)
Why do you dodge and weave these variables thrown out as a solution by "experts" across this nation?
#140. To: noone222 (#135)
Your responses to people's Christian beliefs are pretty vicious.
#141. To: abraxas (#136)
Two decades ago the US had less care, less money, and less drugs thrown at the problem and the US ranked 28th in infant mortality. Now, the US has more care, more money, and more drugs thrown at the problem and the ranking is 41st among nations.....a drop of 13 in two decades.
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#142. To: PSUSA2 (#0)
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#143. To: PSUSA2 (#140)
I'd love to see all 3 abrahamic faiths be destroyed.
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#144. To: PSUSA2 (#0)
#145. To: PSUSA2 (#140)
It'd be a different story if they kept their religious crap to themselves. But they don't. It affects everyone, believer or not, because they believe in spreading the misery.
#146. To: Shoonra (#144)
Some got uptight about fluride in the water, although its benefit to children seems unassailable.
#147. To: F.A. Hayek Fan (#142)
The problem lies with the adage, "give an inch, take a mile." That is the government.
#148. To: abraxas (#145)
You expect of others what you do not do not expect of yourself. You don't keep you religious crap to yourself.
#149. To: Shoonra (#144)
#150. To: PSUSA2 (#147)
It's is this lack of balance that is the problem here.
Any perceived compliance with unconstitutional “laws” or orders put forth by government employees is NOT recognition of their authority; it is simply the result of carefully calculated submission to an entity exhibiting superior firepower.
#151. To: abraxas (#145)
#152. To: Shoonra (#144)
Some got uptight about fluride in the water, although its benefit to children seems unassailable.
-Alex Kurtagic
#153. To: PSUSA2 (#148)
Why was I mad, just because someone disagreed with me? By your own admission you are "viscous" and frankly, nobody here at 4um has treated you in kind over religious differences. What "affect" are you intending if not negative? You bait it, speak viciously, and then snivel and whine about responses you get with lame hypotheticals to justify your behavior. If this, if that....all the while you fail to see that the common denomination isn't this if or that if but YOU. You're mad on a regular basis when people disagree with you, nothing has changed since you decided to no longer be a Christian. If you want to see a change, start with yourself. Your journey is circular, but you're too busy making justifications for your admitted "viscous" behavior to see it. When are you going to own your own admitted "viscous" behavior? Your opinions don't merit a like or dislike, no such emotion has been expressed. What I dislike is your disrespect for others who do not merit such treatment with your admitted "viscous" commentary. You do it to piss people off and then you whine and create silly hypotheticals when you get the result you were seeking. When will the anger you continue to wallow in bring you to question your "true" satanic faith as it did your "true" Christian faith? When will you own your anger and stop blaming your faith of the week? I express my opinions, same as everyone else. You may not like my opinions, but I don't care.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
#154. To: PSUSA2, abraxas (#153) (Edited)
PSUSA, the question is on the table. Please answer the lady, I'm curious what your response is on this one. When will the anger you continue to wallow in bring you to question your "true" satanic faith as it did your "true" Christian faith?
-Alex Kurtagic
#155. To: abraxas (#153)
I never said anyone did treat me bad over religious differences (with the exception of the "believe or burn" crowd but they don't bother me because they don't count) But I express my opinions, same as everyone else. Those that don't like me or my opinions know that there is a fix for that, and presto changeo! My posts disappear. "You're mad on a regular basis when people disagree with you," Nonsense. I don't get mad at words on a page. I can disagree with someone on one thread and agree with them on another. It's never personal. "What I dislike is your disrespect for others who do not merit such treatment with your admitted "viscous" commentary. " Why is this all about me all the sudden? Have you given up with the state of health care and doctors, and the 11,000 dead babies you brought up? Is it because you think I'm being vicious towards you? "You do it to piss people off and then you whine and create silly hypotheticals when you get the result you were seeking." Perhaps you can show some examples of this? I'd love to see them. If people are pissed off by my opinions, by litte ol' me, that's their problem, not mine. I can discuss it with them, if they stick to the point, which you aren't doing here. By your own admission you are "viscous" and frankly, nobody here at 4um has treated you in kind over religious differences.
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#156. To: X-15 (#154)
PSUSA, the question is on the table. Please answer the lady, I'm curious what your response is on this one. What do you know about Satanic "faith"? (I used quotes for a reason) Do you go off of what the church teaches? (they're a little biased) How about Hollywood? Tell me in a nutshell what you know about Satanism. Then we can perhaps discuss it. Not that I speak for Satanism, but just for myself. When will the anger you continue to wallow in bring you to question your "true" satanic faith as it did your "true" Christian faith?
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#157. To: PSUSA2, abraxas (#156)
It's bad. There, in two words I summed it all up. Tell me in a nutshell what you know about Satanism.
-Alex Kurtagic
#158. To: PSUSA2 (#155)
Perhaps you can show some examples of this? I'd love to see them. Happy to share an example~ Example One: YOUR TITLE FOR THIS THREAD! The sole purpose of the title change is to piss people off. The original title for the article was fine but you felt the need to insert your own for negative "affect" with complete and total disregard and disrespect for others on 4um who do not share your newly minted beliefs. Yet you feign innocence while proving yourself to be as transparent as Saran Wrap. People aren't pissed off. However, people are not going to allow you to snivel and whine about the behaviors of others that you exhibit daily. People are not going to allow you to feign innocence while you spew admitted "viscous" commentary for no other purpose than negative "affect" on others which you hypocritically claim to disdain when you are on the receiving end of it. Again, when will you own your own behavior and anger and stop blaming your chosen "faith" of the week? Do you have another useless "if" for an answer? As for the infant mortality.......I've posted fact after fact after fact while you have offered nothing but unsubstantiated opinions. If you wish to discuss specific posted facts, do some research and contribute more than your unsubstantiated opinion. "You do it to piss people off and then you whine and create silly hypotheticals when you get the result you were seeking."
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
#159. To: PSUSA2 (#1)
Example TWO: Stated for no other pupose than to piss people on this 4um off and garner negative "affect".......and I have to ask: who benefits? Where is your "jesus" now. Idiots.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
#160. To: abraxas (#158)
Couples faith in "jesus" gets them nothing but 2 dead kids and a murder charge(my title) 1) Did they have faith in "jesus"? Yes. 2) Did 2 kids die because of this misplaced faith? Yes. 3) Are murder charges pending? Yes. Now you may not like my title, but it is accurate. If people got pissed off when reading the title, then that's their problem. What they should be pissed off about is the 2 dead kids that their "jesus" didn't think enough of to heal. I wonder why "jesus" ignored their pleas. Probably not enough faith. OOPS! I don't want to make people angry here... so I'll stop. lol "people are not going to allow you to snivel and whine about the behaviors of others that you exhibit daily. People are not going to allow you to feign innocence while you spew admitted "viscous" commentary for no other purpose than negative "affect" on others which you hypocritically claim to disdain when you are on the receiving end of it. " Speak for yourself. If you think I'm guilty of those things, hers's the place to prove it. I claim no "disdain" when people disagree with me. None. Nada. Zilch. "As for the infant mortality.......I've posted fact after fact after fact while you have offered nothing but unsubstantiated opinions." I have offered one main question: Show where your 11,000 dead babies received prenatal care. And kindly answer that without using the word "epidemic" that you used above. Example One: YOUR TITLE FOR THIS THREAD! The sole purpose of the title change is to piss people off.
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#161. To: PSUSA2 (#160)
So are you going to suggest that scribbling pentagrams in the dirt and worshipping bloody steer skulls would have saved that baby? Oh, wait, Satanists have been known to SACRIFICE babies at the altar of their misguided genuflecting.
-Alex Kurtagic
#162. To: abraxas (#159)
Example TWO: Stated for no other pupose than to piss people on this 4um off and garner negative "affect".......and I have to ask: who benefits? Simple question, really. Where's their jesus now? If that makes people angry, then they must know the answer to that question, right? So, where is their jesus now? 2 kids died due to "his" incompetence, or maybe he was busy doing something else, or maybe it was all "gods' will" that these kids die. But if that was the case, the least "jesus" could do is put in an appearance and explain a few things. Maybe that was too much trouble? OOPS! I don't want to piss people off. So I'll stop now. lol Where is your "jesus" now. Idiots.
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#163. To: X-15 (#157)
It's bad. There, in two words I summed it all up. Then there's really nor much to discuss, right? Tell me in a nutshell what you know about Satanism.
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#164. To: PSUSA2 (#162)
You are skirting the issue again. What purpose does your statement have other than to be "viscous" and/or piss people on this 4um off and/or create a negative "affect" in stating it? Who benefits from your question? Do you benefit from total disregard and respect for others on this 4um who do not share your newly minted beliefs? Do you benefit from negatively affecting others while you snivel others do this to you? Do you benefit from intentionally trying to piss others off? Same with your title change......who benefits? What purpose is served? You asked for examples and I have provided them......the least you could do is answer the questions directed toward you instead of ducking, weaving, and tossing red herrings. You aren't fooling anybody. Are you a victim of your seething anger at Christianity that didn't meet your lofty exceptions? Is religion responsible for your "viscous" behavior or are you accountable for your own damn self? If that makes people angry, then they must know the answer to that question, right?
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
#165. To: PSUSA2. X-15 (#163)
Bingo! X can't seem to locate an iota of give a damn to discuss the issue, even when you try to package it as a "great mystery" to behold. Then there's really nor much to discuss, right?
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
#166. To: abraxas (#164)
Lololol!! ;-) "viscous"...."affect"...."viscous"
-Alex Kurtagic
#167. To: abraxas (#164) (Edited)
What makes it "vicious"? Is it vicious to say that there is no santa claus or easter bunny? They are free to disagree. After all, I don't KNOW that there is no santa claus or easter bunny, or "jesus" for that matter, but I doubt their existence. If they are so sure any of these characters exist, then nothing I can possibly say will change their minds. Their faith is strong and they are secure in their beliefs. They can comfort themselves with the belief that I am going to "hell", and they are going to "heaven". Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other. What purpose does your statement have other than to be "viscous" and/or piss people on this 4um off and/or create a negative "affect" in stating it?
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#168. To: PSUSA2 (#167)
Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other. YOUR OWN ADMISSION! You described your actions as such. However, on a deeper and more honest level, it has to do with your INTENT which I have questioned you about over and over and over again while you duck and weave. We both know that your INTENT is to be disrespectful, to be rude, to be hateful, to anger others by your self describe "viscous" behavior. Again, WHO BENEFITS? Why is so important for you to try to piss others off? Because anger loves company? Do you ever see beyond yourself? Ever? You continually blame others for your behavior.....it's religion to blame, it is their lack of faith to blame, it is the anger you feel. All about you.....all the time. Are you EVER responsible for your own actions? EVER? Here's a newsflash: You are NOT a victim of anything other than yourself. Religion doesn't make you angry, you choose to be angry. You like to believe that you are so all important that you are a catalyst in the others "losing their faith".......LOL! Just because you lost your faith doesn't mean that others are doing the same because...gasp...they are angry when their lofty expectations are not met as demanded. What makes it "vicious"?
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
#169. To: abraxas (#168)
I must be pretty powerful to do that. Or could you be twisting my words? Let's go back and see what I wrote. Here it is again: "Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other. " Please stop lying. It's not very ladylike. You like to believe that you are so all important that you are a catalyst in the others "losing their faith".......LOL!
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#170. To: PSUSA2 (#169)
Who is lying? Why do you avoid the intent questions? By your own words you are "viscous" to others, yet you skirt what your purpose in doing so is. Again, what is your purpose in trying to piss people off for holding beliefs you used to hold that are now different from the beliefs you hold today? Who benefits? I'm not twisting your words, simply attempting to get to the bottom of your intent and determine your purpose. Gee, what a shock that you attempt to play the "victim" card again. Religion makes you do it! Asking you your intent is "twisting your words" while you skirt all direct questions! Nobody buys your poor victim routine, but it is comical. If not attempting to act as a catalyst to sway belief, to piss people off, to mock what you used to believe, to disrespect others, to be hateful...what is your intention? You asked for examples, I provided them. Now answer what is your intent? Who is responsible for your actions and your anger? Your intent is to piss people off, you get the result you intend and then you say that "they are losing their faith" in response to your attempts to piss people off. Your cause and effect chain is faulty. What am I twisting in your reasoning that you believe you are a catalyst when you succeed in pissing people off and divert the anger you intended from yourself to their "failing" religious beliefs? Please stop lying. It's not very ladylike.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
#171. To: abraxas (#170)
I must be pretty powerful to do that. Or could you be twisting my words? Let's go back and see what I wrote. Here it is again: "Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other. " Please stop lying. It's not very ladylike. You like to believe that you are so all important that you are a catalyst in the others "losing their faith".......LOL!
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#172. To: PSUSA2 (#171)
They are losing their faith. Again your words and your intention to piss people off. Why is it when you succeed "something is wrong with their religious programming"? Explain this correlation. Again, your intention is to piss people off, so how is it that when you succeed "they are losing their faith"? Explain this correlation. What makes you so all important that when you set out an intention to piss people off and succeed then your success proves that "something is wrong with their religious programming" and "they are losing their faith"? Explain the correlation in your own statements. Your words......how are they twisted? Who is lying? lol if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming.
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
#173. To: abraxas (#172)
"Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other. " I dont know how I could make it any more plain. Giving a partial quote is also as good as lying. Nowhere did I even hint that this was due to my efforts. I'm just not that powerful. I'm flattered that you think I am, though. You like to believe that you are so all important that you are a catalyst in the others "losing their faith".......LOL!
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#174. To: PSUSA2 (#173)
Why do you divert your intentions PSUSA? Are you opposed to honest analysis? If, then......cause and effect statement. Let's break down the two components. First, you admit that you make "viscous" statements and divert that your intention is to piss people off but we both know this is the truth of the matter. So, let's move to the "if they are mad at me" after you INTENDED to piss them off with "viscous" commentary........do we have the if part right? Yes, we do. Now for then, "something is wrong with their religious programming"....wow what an effect for your "if they are mad at me" after you intended to piss them off with your "viscous" statements. Explain how a person getting mad at your admitted "viscous" statements intending to piss them off equates to "something is wrong with their religious programming". Simply explain your own cause and effect reasoning. It is YOUR self righteous if/then statement. I didn't write it. We have a problem with correlation that you continue to avoid. How does getting mad at you after you spew "viscous" comments by your own admission and have the sole intention of pissing people off equate to "losing their faith"? I agree you are not that important, yet I am curious as to why you would make such an idiotic and self righteous if/then correlation. if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
#175. To: abraxas (#174)
"Again, if they are mad at me, then something is wrong with their religious programming. They are losing their faith. It shouldn't matter what I have to say about anything. I'm just one insignificant person no different than any other. " What more can I say? If there is anger at what one person has to say, then where is that anger coming from? It's just one persons opinion. It shouldn't matter what one person thinks. If what I express as an opinion can be refuted, then refute it. Tell me how real "jesus" is, tell me what your pastor says, tell me what your bible says, whatever floats your boat. There are Christians here. There are atheists here. There might even be more than 1 Satanist here. They are just as free to express their opinions as I am.
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#176. To: PSUSA2 (#175)
You speak to piss people off and then question where the anger comes from? Why must the anger be connected to a person's religious beliefs rather than the person who shows blatant disrespect with admitted "viscous" comments? That makes no fricken' sense. Again, you duck the issue but is comes down to your admitted "viscous" statements and your intention to piss people off. Who benefits? You are NOT a victim. Nobody is asking you not to express anything or restrict your "freedom"--what is asked is that you have some respect for others and take responsibility for your admitted "viscous" statements. Who benefits? The answer is: NOBODY BENEFITS--not you, not the 4um, not other posters. If there is anger at what one person has to say, then where is that anger coming from?
" If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11
"Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
#177. To: abraxas (#176)
About those 11,000 dead kids you mentioned, and then ducked. Did they receive prenatal care? You're trying to make this all about me. I dont have the power to make anyone angry. Their anger is their problem. Their happiness is their problem. Their emotions are their problem. Now, did those 11000 dead babies get prenatal care? If you don't know, then say so. But if you don't know, why did you even mention them? Again, you duck the issue
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