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Title: Couples faith in "jesus" gets them nothing but 2 dead kids and a murder charge(my title)
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URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/dead-pa-babys ... -divine-healing-025704613.html
Published: May 25, 2013
Author: j
Post Date: 2013-05-25 07:58:50 by PSUSA2
Keywords: None
Views: 2676
Comments: 177
PHILADELPHIA (AP) — After their 2-year-old son died of untreated pneumonia in 2009, faith-healing advocates Herbert and Catherine Schaible promised a judge they would not let another sick child go without medical care. But now they've lost an 8-month-old to what a prosecutor called "eerily similar" circumstances. And instead of another involuntary manslaughter charge, they're now charged with third-degree murder. "We believe in divine healing, that Jesus shed blood for our healing and that he died on the cross to break the devil's power," Herbert Schaible, 44, told Philadelphia homicide detectives after their ninth child, Brandon, died in April. Medicine, he said, "is against our religious beliefs." The Schaibles were ordered held without bail Friday, two days after their arrest, although defense lawyers argued that they are neither a flight risk nor a danger to the community. "He is incarcerated because of his faith," said lawyer Bobby Hoof, who described client Herbert Schaible's mindset as resolute. "He's strong willed," Hoof said. "(Yet) he's mourning this son. He's hurting as any dad would." The only people theoretically at risk are the couple's seven surviving children, who are now in foster care, the lawyers said. A judge acknowledged that the couple had never missed a court date in the first case but said he worried that might change amid the more serious charges. And he feared they may have supporters who would harbor them. "Throughout this country ... there are churches like the Schaibles' whose members and leaders probably don't think they did anything wrong and might be willing — to paraphrase the Schaibles' pastor — to put their interpretation of God's will above the law," Common Pleas Judge Benjamin Lerner said. About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine, typically from highly treatable problems, said Shawn Francis Peters, a University of Wisconsin lecturer who has studied faith-healing deaths. In Oregon, four couples from a faith-healing church have been prosecuted, the most recent in 2011 when a couple was sentenced to more than six years in prison for manslaughter in the death of their newborn son. The state legislature that year removed faith healing as a defense to murder charges. Members of the Followers of Christ have consistently refused to speak with journalists. Defense lawyer Mark Cogan declined to comment Friday on whether the legal actions have changed the practice of any church members. Some testified at the 2011 trial that they do get medical care. At the Schaibles' sentencing in February 2011 in their son Kent's death, they agreed to follow terms of the 10-year probation, which included an order to get their children regular checkups and sick visits as needed. Catherine Schaible, 43, let her husband speak for her and never addressed the judge. "It's very clear that the law says that religious freedom is trumped by the safety of a child," Common Pleas Judge Carolyn Engel Temin explained. But a transcript of a later probation hearing that year shows probation officers were confused by their mandate to oversee the required medical care and felt powerless to carry it out. The family was not being monitored by child-welfare workers, who are more accustomed to dealing with medical compliance. "I think that we all on the jury thought that it would not happen again, that whatever social and legal institutions needed to be involved in their situation would just take over ... and that the mandated visits would be robust enough that they would not be able to do this again," Vincent Bertolini, a former college professor who served as jury foreman at the Schaibles' first trial, said Friday. That jury convicted the couple of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment. Like other cases Peters has studied, the Schaibles belong to a small, insular circle of believers. Both are third-generation members and former teachers at their fundamentalist Christian church, the First Century Gospel Church in northeast Philadelphia. Their pastor, Nelson Clark, has said the Schaibles lost their sons because of a "spiritual lack" in their lives and insisted they would not seek medical care even if another child appeared near death. He did not return phone messages this month, but he told The Associated Press in 2011 that his church is not a cult, and he faulted officials for trying to force his members into "the flawed medical system," which he blamed for 100,000 deaths a year. "These are people who have been brought up in these communities; their beliefs are reinforced every day," Peters said. "They're not trained intellectually to question these doctrines, where the rest of us might engage in critical inquiry, weighing the benefits of medicine versus the benefits of prayer." A handful of families, including one in western Pennsylvania, have lost two children after attempts at faith healing, according to Peters, who wrote "When Prayer Fails: Faith Healing, Children and the Law." Peters isn't sure that courts have the means to prevent the problem, since such people don't fear legal punishment, only Judgment Day. Some believe death "is a good outcome," given their belief in the afterlife, he said. "They don't want to harm their children. They're just in this particularly narrow — and very, very dangerous — way misguided about the potential of medical science," he said. He believes that "empathetic" intervention, through dialogue between church and public health educators, could help some "get to a point where they allow their beliefs and practices to evolve." But there's a risk that could backfire, and drive these communities further underground, he said. For the Schaibles, a third-degree murder conviction could bring seven to 14 years in prison or more. Said Assistant District Attorney Joanne Pescatore: "Somebody is dead now as a result of what they did — or didn't do."
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#8. To: PSUSA2 (#6)
You're starting to sound like Obama, ban everything if it saves the life of just one child. corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
Pretty cynical, Dakkie. Correct yet cynical. Godfrey Smith: Mike, I wouldn't worry. Prosperity is just around the corner. Where did I advocate banning anything? Other than maybe banning letting kids die because "going to jesus" is not anywhere as effective as "going to the doctor". ------------------------------------------ It's sad that these infants died, but keep in mind that the medical profession kills 100,000 or so in this country every year. I can't justify letting these children die, neither can I justify coercing the parents to relinquish their beliefs. In the long run, I think it best to let people live by their conscience. corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
Yes, it's best to err on the side of liberty. .gov has no business being involved in child-rearing. Godfrey Smith: Mike, I wouldn't worry. Prosperity is just around the corner. Do you store your kids in a closet? Rhetorical. I'm assuming you both have a conscience. I think you may be assuming that everyone is as sane as you and would move heaven(!) and earth to help your kids. Not everyone is like that; these parents for example. I wonder if these parents worshiped the Almighty God Of Lettuce what the results would be. They could pray to the Divine Head Of Lettuce for their kids divine healing. Would that be protected? That head of lettuce gave its life as a sacrificial offering so that we can eat salad in remembrance of Him, therefore healing is assured. Right? ------------------------------------------ So you are ok with Sheila Jackson Lee telling you that you should be worshiping eggplants instead? :) Seriously though, the problem I have is where does it end? Were you ok with Rick Perry when he floated a law requiring all 14 year old girls to get a Gardasil injection? corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
I think a better example would be how people here would react to a story about a Jewish infant dying from herpes he contracted from a Mohel... Baby’s Death Renews Debate Over a Circumcision Ritual Should Jewish parents have the liberty to have their babies circumcised in that manner? Personally I think they should all get a Heroin injection. It's more beneficial than Gardasil®.
Don't you find it alarming that kids can be expelled from school for bringing an aspirin from home, yet that same school can give them morning after abortion pills without the knowledge of their parents?
corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
As long as it's kept out of public discussion, sure. :) corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
No one asked you! Go back to Burma, creep! corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
What if it results in death as in the case I posted? I was being sarcastic, FL. The Jewish community seems to pride itself on airing everyone else's dirty laundry. I'm sure you've noticed.
corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
What it comes down to is that folks have no problem if the zealots are of similar, though more extreme flavor of beliefs. I doubt many here, including myself, think that Mohels are a great way to deal with circumcision. It's an outdated practice from several thousand years ago. Just because they did it that way then doesn't mean it's ok to do it that way today. Same with any other outdated medical practice, such as blood letting and various snake oil concoctions. But that's all besides the point. If a child has a serious illness that modern medicine can readily treat, then to withhold that treatment because the parent has a belief in the supernatural, while their child suffers and dies needlessly, well that is just beyond insane. Good question. I dont know the answer. Power is accumulated and never willingly given up. Laws seem to start out with good intentions (usually) and end up with what we have now, an emerging police state. I see protecting citizens as a legitimate function of government. But we all have differing ideas on what that entails. So there is conflict there. Then the psychopaths, the ones that always seem to make it to the top, use this open ended idea of protecting citizens to accumulate more power for themselves, at citizens expense. So that is 2 ways things get screwed up. Then there are the fucked up people like this couple. People can't be forced to come to their senses, even though I admit at times I'd sure like to try and force them to do that very thing. And I wouldn't be gentle. The only solution I see is rebooting. The culture is one big BSOD. ------------------------------------------ post 23
------------------------------------------ A dozen........that must be an epidemic. 6,700 die in automobiles. OUTLAW CHILDREN IN CARS!!!! 1,000 drown to death.......OUTLAW CHILDREN AND WATER!!!! 540 die the horrible death by fire.....OUTLAW ALL FIRE!!! 970 die of unintentional poisoning and 133 intentional is this close to an epidemic yet? 1260 die of unintentional suffocation and strangulation and 740 from intentional suffocation and strangulation. 138 from firearm accidents and 2200 firearm homicides and 680 firearm suicides. Thousands more children die from the cure after SEEKING medical "expertise" than the dozen that die from not seeking it......do they matter? Now for medicated children.....25 percent of children in the U.S. were on regular medication. 45 million children are on asthma medications, 24 million are on ADHD medications, almost 10 million are on antidepressants with another six and a half million on other antipsychotics. Then there are the antihypertensives, the sleep aids, the medications for Type 2 diabetes and high cholesterol, and on and on. 45 Million kids are popping pills and going to the doctor...aren't your relieved! Nothing to see here Looky Lou, keep your eye on the 12 that didn't get medical attention while 45 million keep popping pills that kill thousands under doctor supervision. " If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
This case in particular is troubling. It's not like the parents were actively abusing the infants. Let's step outside of the box for a moment, shall we? Let's just say that you were promoted, but your new job required you to move to China. One day one of the kids gets sick, so a man wearing a dragon costume shows up splashing tea all over your walls and chanting some crazy i-ching nonsense, and insists that your kid drink blue fizzy liquid from an urn with live tentacles coming out the top. Do you oblige? corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
Protecting the rights of citizens is the only legitimate function of government. Protecting citizens is too vague, protecting us from what? It becomes politicized quickly. Rights can be defined and agreed upon. corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
680 children committed suicide using firearms? That's over 30 per state. You'd think it would make the nightly news, at least once. corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
How about passive abuse? It's all in how the word abuse is defined. Personally I see it as active abuse. They actively sought help from someone that can't help, and doing what any "reasonable man" would see as being counterproductive. So they actually did something, the idiotic thing, and people died because of it. "China. One day one of the kids gets sick, so a man wearing a dragon costume shows up splashing tea all over your walls and chanting some crazy i-ching nonsense, and insists that your kid drink blue fizzy liquid from an urn with live tentacles coming out the top. Do you oblige? " I oblige by handing him a bucket of soapy suds and a rag and tell that SOB to clean my f'n walls. ------------------------------------------ Might is the wrong term. Why do you have such a hard-on for other people's religious beliefs ? Strange times are these in which we live when old and young are taught in falsehood’s school. And the one man who dares to tell the truth is called at once a lunatic and fool. – Plato (429-347 BC)
Like plopping toddlers in front of the teevee instead of reading to them? Are there enough FEMA camps? corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
Really? Don't look at the child mortality rates of the 1800's and early 1900's. You'll REALLY fly off the handle if you did that. Those medicines (and vaccines lol) save kids lives. ------------------------------------------ Bar Association is gonna get you for that, heathen! corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
That doesn't make the news because it's directly tied to the anti psychotic medications they are taking and that issue is off the table. Also, suicide is a more "private" matter, especially with children who cannot be named in news reports. Average out 680 tweens and teenagers for 12 months and you get 58 a month, a little over 1 per state every month if evenly distributed. " If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
Don't get me started on TV. So much wasted potential there. 50+ channels and it's hard to find something good to watch. ------------------------------------------ Proper water and sewage systems have saved far more lives than pharmaceuticals, yet I see so few commercials for drainage tile. What gives?
corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
Look at the studies, most of the anti-psychotic medications "save" no more than placebos and are no more effective than placebos, which brings us full circle to "faith healing" in effectiveness. Give 'em to millions of children! " If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
Divide by two for each senator and it comes out to roughly...six million! corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
A) I wouldn't go. B) I know better than making the kid drink the blue fizzy liquid. Wouldn't have anything to do with clean water/sanitation/mobility would it? No, of course not, all hail Big Pharma. Lol! " If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
So, you like jews now? lol ------------------------------------------ What if it was just a blueberry ice cone, not actually fizzing? corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
I didn't say that was right, did I? We're talking different kinds of medicines here. ------------------------------------------ PSUSA is like the smoker who quits when it comes to religion. He was a Christian but he didn't get all of his expectations met so he now has gone the other way and is zealot about it, which, ironically, is one of the things he feels contempt for Christians in their behavior. He fails to see that he is what he doth protests ad nauseum because he has traded one pair of rose colored glasses for another. " If you cannot govern yourself, you will be governed by assholes. " Randge, Poet de Forum, 1/11/11 "Life's tough, and even tougher if you're stupid." --John Wayne
A) I wouldn't go. B) I know better than making the kid drink the blue fizzy liquid. I'm not even sure what this has to do with the topic. ------------------------------------------ I wouldn't be there in the first place. But IF I was there, and IF I knew that what was in that cone was safe and would cure whatever ailed my kid, then I suppose I would let him have it. If I didn't know what was in it then I would not. There's a difference between taking a spoonful of amoxicillin several times a day for several days, and taking some superstitious brew of noxious substances. I most certainly do. The world has gone insane.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestTo me, the "gut issues" are 2 dead kids that in all probability died needlessly.
#9. To: Dakmar (#7)
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)
#10. To: Dakmar (#8)
You're starting to sound like Obama, ban everything if it saves the life of just one child.
#11. To: PSUSA2 (#10)
Where did I advocate banning anything? Other than maybe banning letting kids die because "going to jesus" is not anywhere as effective as "going to the doctor".
#12. To: Dakmar, PSUSA2 (#11)
I think it best to let people live by their conscience.
Mike Flaherty: Yeah, it's been there a long time. I wish I knew which corner.
My Man Godfrey (1936)
#13. To: Esso, Dakmar (#12)
Yes, it's best to err on the side of liberty. .gov has no business being involved in child-rearing.
#14. To: PSUSA2 (#13)
I wonder if these parents worshiped the Almighty God Of Lettuce what the results would be. They could pray to the Divine Head Of Lettuce for their kids divine healing. Would that be protected? That head of lettuce gave its life as a sacrificial offering so that we can eat salad in remembrance of Him, therefore healing is assured. Right?
#15. To: PSUSA2, Esso, Dakmar (#13)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#16. To: Dakmar (#14)
#17. To: PSUSA2 (#13)
#18. To: FormerLurker (#15)
(Edited)
Should Jewish parents have the liberty to have their babies circumcised in that manner?
#19. To: Original_Intent (#16)
Personally I think they should all get a Heroin injection. It's more beneficial than Gardasil®.
#20. To: Dakmar (#18)
As long as it's kept out of public discussion, sure. :)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#21. To: FormerLurker (#20)
#22. To: Dakmar (#21)
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#23. To: Dakmar (#14)
Seriously though, the problem I have is where does it end?
#24. To: Dakmar (#17)
#25. To: PSUSA2 (#0)
About a dozen children die each year in the U.S. when parents turn to faith healing instead of medicine,
#26. To: FormerLurker, PSUSA2 (#22)
If a child has a serious illness that modern medicine can readily treat, then to withhold that treatment because the parent has a belief in the supernatural, while their child suffers and dies needlessly, well that is just beyond insane.
#27. To: PSUSA2 (#23)
I see protecting citizens as a legitimate function of government.
#28. To: abraxas (#25)
1260 die of unintentional suffocation and strangulation and 740 from intentional suffocation and strangulation. 138 from firearm accidents and 2200 firearm homicides and 680 firearm suicides.
#29. To: Dakmar (#26)
It's not like the parents were actively abusing the infants.
#30. To: PSUSA2 (#6)
I might be an asshole, but at least I'm not a lawyer or a legislator.
#31. To: PSUSA2 (#29)
How about passive abuse?
#32. To: abraxas (#25)
Thousands more children die from the cure after SEEKING medical "expertise" than the dozen that die from not seeking it......do they matter?
#33. To: PSUSA2 (#29)
Personally I see it as active abuse. They actively sought help from someone that can't help
#34. To: Dakmar (#28)
680 children committed suicide using firearms? That's over 30 per state. You'd think it would make the nightly news, at least once.
#35. To: Dakmar (#31)
Like plopping toddlers in front of the teevee instead of reading to them?
#36. To: PSUSA2 (#32)
#37. To: PSUSA2 (#32)
(Edited)
Those medicines (and vaccines lol) save kids lives.
#38. To: abraxas (#34)
Average out 680 tweens and teenagers for 12 months and you get 58 a month, a little over 1 per state every month if evenly distributed.
#39. To: Dakmar, PSUSA2 (#26)
Let's just say that you were promoted, but your new job required you to move to China. One day one of the kids gets sick, so a man wearing a dragon costume shows up splashing tea all over your walls and chanting some crazy i-ching nonsense, and insists that your kid drink blue fizzy liquid from an urn with live tentacles coming out the top. Do you oblige?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#40. To: PSUSA2 (#32)
child mortality rates of the 1800's and early 1900's
#41. To: noone222 (#30)
Why do you have such a hard-on for other people's religious beliefs ?
#42. To: FormerLurker (#39)
B) I know better than making the kid drink the blue fizzy liquid.
#43. To: abraxas (#37)
Look at the studies, most of the anti-psychotic medications
#44. To: noone222, PSUSA2 (#30)
Why do you have such a hard-on for other people's religious beliefs ?
#45. To: FormerLurker (#39)
Let's just say that you were promoted, but your new job required you to move to China. One day one of the kids gets sick, so a man wearing a dragon costume shows up splashing tea all over your walls and chanting some crazy i-ching nonsense, and insists that your kid drink blue fizzy liquid from an urn with live tentacles coming out the top. Do you oblige?
#46. To: Dakmar (#42)
What if it was just a blueberry ice cone, not actually fizzing?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#47. To: Dakmar, PSUSA2 (#17)
Don't you find it alarming that kids can be expelled from school for bringing an aspirin from home, yet that same school can give them morning after abortion pills without the knowledge of their parents?
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
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