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Dear Horse, which one of your posts has the Deep State so spun up that's causing 4um to run slow?

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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: An Open Letter to the Parents of Trayvon Martin
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Aug 6, 2013
Author: Glenda Wells
Post Date: 2013-08-06 00:10:23 by James Deffenbach
Keywords: None
Views: 3214
Comments: 237

Ms Fulton, Mr Martin I mourn your loss more than I can possibly say but let's be clear. Your son had as much opportunity to walk away as Mr Zimmerman did but chose instead to be aggressive himself.

Just as a reminder, Mr Zimmerman did not use Stand Your Ground as a defense. The facts are indisputable that your son was on top and pounding Mr Zimmerman. Your son was not stalked. Mr Zimmerman was judged in a court of law to be not guilty therefore no punishment is warranted.

Your son was depicted by the media as a young boy and portrayed as an innocent but let's be honest. We know that was not a true picture. Instead we learned you're son was a drug dealer and petty thief. Where were you when he should have been learning respect? Where were you when he needed the kind of guidance that would make him a good and decent man?

Your efforts now seem like the desperate reach of parents trying to make up for in death what they failed in life. To think otherwise would paint you as a crass and heartless people looking for personal gain on the grave of a soul lost too soon.

I am the Florida state coordinator for Gun Rights Across America. I represent more than 2,000 law abiding citizens who believe in our God-given right to defend ourselves, our families and our property against the kind of aggression displayed by your son that awful night and by countless thugs and criminals across the nation every day.

GRAA has the support of thousands of members in every state and we have the backing of millions more in hundreds of Patriot and Constitutional groups around the country. We will fight any effort designed to give thugs and criminals power over law abiding citizens.

We have no duty to retreat. We will not run and hide.

We are many. We are mighty. And we vote.

Respectfully and with heartfelt sadness.

Glenda Wells
Gun Rights Across America, Florida State Coordinator

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 168.

#2. To: James Deffenbach, 4 (#0)

let's be honest.

This author is not being honest, imo. Although I suspect this to be a Masonic-linked Op to stir up racial conflict, what's considered the reported evidence indicates that Martin (who had committed no "Running Man" crime that night by hurrying through his neighborhood to get home and out of the rain) was on the porch at his own home before the confrontation with Zimmerman. There are no witnesses that Zimmerman was aggressively struck first in the scenario -- just his word. That someone claimed it appeared to them that Zimmerman was being beaten while pinned to the ground doesn't mean they might not be mistaken or lying. Zimmerman's clothing did not look in film footage like he'd been on the wet ground, he requested help to restrain someone who most likely wouldn't even have been moving at that point and he tried to stop that person who had arrived with a flashlight from calling the police for help. That Zimmerman was reportedly in charge of patrolling the area for months and didn't know the names of the streets indicates he may have been motivated more by vigilantism than his safety duties. I think a good case could be made, though, for open carry instead of concealed carry by Neighborhood Watch patrols because that might prevent others being similarly shot by surprise during what was seemingly to them an unarmed fight with a probable stalker.

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-08-06   7:30:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: GreyLmist (#2) (Edited)

This author is not being honest, imo. Although I suspect this to be a Masonic-linked Op to stir up racial conflict

With this opening comment you stumble straight into the Land of Crackpottery.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2013-08-06   15:06:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Jethro Tull (#4)

This author is not being honest, imo. Although I suspect this to be a Masonic-linked Op to stir up racial conflict

With this opening comment you stumble straight into the Land of Crackpottery, thereby rendering anything else you state unworthy of serious debate.

Reference: Post #5 of 4um Title: Raw Video: George Zimmerman reenacts incident for Sanford Police

A number of things about this controversy make no logical sense but there is more checkable evidence to suspect Masonic involvement in a staged Op than there is for the insistent narrative that this happened from an aggressive first-strike against Zimmerman by Martin, for which there are no actual witnesses whatsoever to that in the scenario other than the claims of Zimmerman who killed him. I don't take it for granted that his statements about that must be deemed unquestionable due to Martin not being wounded instead to survive and dispute them himself and don't think it's my perspective there that's unreasonable.

I've seen it asserted in discussions about this that it doesn't matter who struck first in the fight, just that Zimmerman feared for his life -- except that it seems to matter for the purposes of convincing people that it means nothing if Martin was fighting in fear of a stalker; that his killing was completely justifiable (even though he wasn't being pursued because Zimmerman had been alerted to any criminal acts in the area that night) on the grounds that he was imperfect (Zimmerman's imperfections dismissable) and because Zimmerman claims that he was hit first. If that's the type of "reasoning" you consider worthy of serious debate, I can't agree but am not perplexed, then, if you aren't interested in seriously discussing the safety merits of the Open Carry issue for Neighborhood Watch patrollers and those they serve v. Concealed Carry.

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-08-06   19:02:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: GreyLmist, Jethro Tull (#8)

A number of things about this controversy make no logical sense but there is more checkable evidence to suspect Masonic involvement in a staged Op than there is for the insistent narrative that this happened from an aggressive first-strike against Zimmerman by Martin, for which there are no actual witnesses whatsoever to that in the scenario other than the claims of Zimmerman who killed him.

No actual witnesses whatsoever to that scenario? Say what?

Here's the transcript of John Good's testimony. John Good was the Prosecution's witness btw...

legalinsurrection.com/201...mixed-martial-arts-style/

snip

...the longer the State’s witness was in the stand, the more damage he did to the State’s theory of the case. The continually growing climax was realized at the very end of the testimony, when O’Mara held a copy of Good’s initial statement to then-lead Investigator Chris Serino (a transcript of is provided below):

O’Mara: Just to clarify what was actually talked about with Chris Serino, Investigator Serino, during this, we’re going to call it for the moment the Ground-and-Pound conversation. We have a rule called completeness, so what I want to do is put it in context for you, ask you if this is what you said to Chris Serino. OK?

“Yeah I pretty much heard somebody yelling outside. I wasn’t sure if it was, you know, a fight or something going wrong. So I opened my blinds and I see kind of like a person out there. I didn’t know if it was a dog attack or something. So I open my door. It was a black man with a black hoodie on top of the other, either a white guy or now I found out I think it was a Hispanic guy with a red sweatshirt on the ground yelling out help! And I tried to tell them, get out of here, you know, stop or whatever, and then one guy on top in the black hoodie was pretty much just throwing down blows on the guy kind of MMA-style.”

Is that the context in which that happened?

Good: Yes.

O’Mara: And then Investigator Serino said, a word that I have, and the transcripts may differ, ground, couldn’t figure it, maybe he said Ground-and-Pound, and then you said:

“Yeah, like a Ground-and-Pound on the concrete at this point, so at this point I told him I’m calling 911.”

AND

legalinsurrection.com/201...ideo-of-states-witnesses/

snip

Once again, it was simply not a very good day at all for the prosecution. The primary State witnesses today were Rachel Jeantel, Jenna Lauer, and Selma Mora. The first had her credibility substantively destroyed, the second was powerfully–almost humiliatingly–co-opted by the defense, and the third provided testimony entirely consistent with the defense’s theory of lawful self-defense.

scrapper2  posted on  2013-08-06   19:56:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: scrapper2 (#11)

The issue was who struck first. What you provided does not indicate anywhere that anyone ever witnessed Martin doing that. Good indicated that a fight was already in process before he saw anything. That is a fact in evidence and not Martin-apologetics. Because the "Good guy" claims to have seen Zimmerman being pounded on the ground at the time he looked doesn't mean that the fight couldn't have started with Martin the one being pounded to the ground at first. Establishing what's actually factual or not in this case doesn't seem to be as imporatant to many as a "Saint Zimmerman" narrative. I'd like to think real jurors would be more diligent but, from the recoil tensions witnessed in this case, it looks like the chances of that are slim to none.

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-08-06   21:20:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: GreyLmist (#20)

The issue was who struck first

Who struck first has zero to do with the use of necessary force to defend oneself from deadly physical force. To be clearer, let's assume Z struck Martin first. If TM responded by beating Z to the point he feared for his life, Z was within his rights to use necessary force to stop the attack. It's called self defense.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2013-08-06   23:11:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Jethro Tull (#30)

Who struck first has zero to do with the use of necessary force to defend oneself from deadly physical force.

I don't have a problem agreeing with that.

To be clearer, let's assume Z struck Martin first.

Ok.

If TM responded by beating Z to the point he feared for his life, Z was within his rights to use necessary force to stop the attack. It's called self defense.

I suppose so except that what he described to the police in his reenactment video was not self defense so much as an accidental shooting that he wasn't even aware had happened to hit TM. There are serious oddities after that point and at least one of those examples that could perhaps be considered a criminal attempt to prevent a call to the police for emergency help by the man with a flashlight who couldn't have been sure that Z had already called them, as he claimed, or whether Martin had been shot in self defense/unintentionally or might have been murdered by Z. In addition to that, by Z's own account in the video, he not only did nothing himself to try and help Martin and didn't ask the man if he was able to help Martin or would get help for him, Z bizarrely insisted that he needed help from the man to restrain Martin who was likely not moving. If those examples were in evidence in a case that wasn't this one, wouldn't you think the attempted obstruction of a call to the police for help was at least indicative of reckless disregard for the life of someone who had used no weaponry against him?

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-08-07   6:10:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: GreyLmist (#35)

I suppose so except that what he described to the police in his reenactment video was not self defense so much as an accidental shooting that he wasn't even aware had happened to hit TM.

Never happened. Z expresses surprise TM had died during his first police interview some hours after the incident, but he never once suggested the shooting was accidental.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2013-08-07   6:56:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Jethro Tull (#36)

Me: what he described to the police in his reenactment video was not self defense so much as an accidental shooting that he wasn't even aware had happened to hit TM.

JT Post #36: Never happened. Z expresses surprise TM had died during his first police interview some hours after the incident, but he never once suggested the shooting was accidental.

Raw Video: George Zimmerman reenacts incident for Sanford Police - at 12 minutes 54 seconds, says he didn't think he hit Trayvon when he shot him.

Hannity interview article - transcription | Hannity interview video

5. He didn’t know he’d shot Trayvon

HANNITY: When you think back, there was one report or police report that actually said you didn’t know after you fired, you didn’t think — you thought you missed?

ZIMMERMAN: I didn’t think I hit him, yes.

-------------------------

JT Post #16: BTW, Serino tried to shake Zimmerman up in one of his five, voluntary, lawyer free interviews. He told him that there was a possibility that the fight was caught by a camera. Zimmerman's reaction? He thanked god and hoped that it was true.

Odd how he gave so many lawyer free interviews to the police and on TV too but didn't want to testify in court. Could you please source which interview and where in it those comments were made or an article about it? Am posting these two audio archives for access conveniene:

George Zimmerman’s Statements To Sanford PD [Audio]

Links to all of the available audio files from the Trayvon Martin / George Zimmerman case

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-08-08   9:31:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: GreyLmist, Jethro Tull (#64)

Raw Video: George Zimmerman reenacts incident for Sanford Police - at 12 minutes 54 seconds, says he didn't think he hit Trayvon when he shot him.

JT Post #36: Never happened. Z expresses surprise TM had died during his first police interview some hours after the incident, but he never once suggested the shooting was accidental.

GreyLMist - I don't understand why you think the raw video you link to proves that what JT said is wrong.

I watched the video.

Zimmerman says he didn't realize his shot hit and mortally wounded Trayvon. Because Travyon initially was getting up saying something like "Okay, okay you got me." Zimmerman thought Trayvon was indicating to him that now he knew that Zimmerman had a gun.

Zimmerman did not say the shooting was "accidental".

It's just that initially Zimmerman did not realize that his gun shot killed Trayvon because Trayvon was strong enough to attempt to get up off Zimmerman and talk to him. That's why Zimmerman tried to restrain restrain Trayvon after he fell to the ground by holding arms his arms apart on the ground.

One thing that that shouted out to me as I watched this video reanactment by Zimmerman was what a small statured man Zimmerman was at the time of the shooting. I did not realize that fact because most of the photos MSM had published of Zimmerman's face during the trail was of a big fat faced person, implying that Zimmerman was a big man, while Trayvon's photos showed a young 12 year old looking little "kid."

In fact, the reverse was true. Zimmerman was a very small guy. I'm definitely much taller than Zimmerman and Zimmerman didn't look too heavy either. Travyon was 5'11" and 155/160 lbs. Big difference between Trayvon and Zimmerman in stature.

scrapper2  posted on  2013-08-08   16:55:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: scrapper2, GreyLmist (#98)

GreyLmist is the only person I know that connected the word accidental to the shooting. No proof has been offered because none exists.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2013-08-08   17:29:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: Jethro Tull, All (#102) (Edited)

GreyLmist is the only person I know that connected the word accidental to the shooting. No proof has been offered because none exists.

I said: not self defense so much as an accidental shooting, meaning more like an alleged accidental shooting than self defense.

This case has morphed into a vitriolic "Stand Your Ground on the Narrative, right or wrong" thing for many against any questions, objections or attempts to right the record. I don't know what it is about this issue that seems to make the very same people who have strongly opposed harassment and overreach by so-called "authority" figures suddenly toss all that out to condone it for Zimmerman who never even identified himself as a Neighborhood Watch official and wasn't dressed like a Security Guard either. But I'm not set on standing my ground on the accidental shooting possibility rather than self defense. It might have been to Zimmerman's advantage if considered an accidental killing but I'm willing to debate it as a strictly self defense issue.

Zimmerman was examined and treated by Paramedics at the scene and his alleged injuries were not determined to be serious enough to be transported to the hospital for stitches or x-rays, etc. He was taken directly to the police station for questioning. It's being asserted that it was wrong for Trayvon to use unarmed force to try and incapacitate Zimmeran but not wrong for Zimmerman to deliberately shoot him to death in the heart rather than try to stop the fight by firing a warning shot or aiming at his arm. Explain, please, how that amounts to "necessary force" under the definitions of self defense. In your opinion, did Zimmerman have more right because he was armed to use more force against his opponent to cause their death than they did to subdue him?

Edited 1st sentence + 1st and last sentence of last paragraph + spacing.

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-08-09   12:03:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: GreyLmist (#144)

Zimmerman was examined and treated by Paramedics at the scene and his alleged injuries were not determined to be serious enough to be transported to the hospital for stitches or x-rays, etc.

It was Zimmerman's decision to not go to the hospital, not the paramedics at the scene.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2013-08-09   13:34:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: Jethro Tull (#149)

It was Zimmerman's decision to not go to the hospital, not the paramedics at the scene.

That's not what he says here at 35:56-36:56.

George Zimmerman Sanford Police Interview [Lie Detector-Polygraph] (February 27, 2012) - YouTube

Do you have another source?

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-08-10   8:18:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: GreyLmist (#158)

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/fire-department/kevin-orourke-paramedic/

Name:

Kevin Patrick O’Rourke

Witness Summary:

He has been a firefighter/EMT for 10 years. They responded to the incident while heading back to the station from another call. They arrived on the scene about 5 mins after the call, and there were police present. They were directed to the back of the building and where they were told was gunshot victim. They placed their 4-lead monitor on Martin and found he was asystole in all four leads. The medic on scene, Mike Brandy called it. They gathered their equipment, and the police told them there was another patient.

Zimmerman had what looked to be a fractured nose. Bleeding was under control, and he had lacerations on the back of his head. They cleaned him up and headed on their way. They cleaned blood off his hands and face. They left him in the care of the Sanford Police Department. O’Rourke was Rescue 38, he and his partner, Mike Brandy. The medic on the scene is in charge of the scene. He got on the scene and he grabbed the airway bag. He placed him on the monitor, if he remembers–he put the stickers on him. Once it was done, he disconnected him. He says the monitor indicated no heartbeat whatsoever. “He is DOA and unworkable.” Mike Brandy is responsible for making that call.

Martin was DOA, and was never conscious. He had a gunshot wound to the chest. His shirt was already rolled up. They had been busy that night. At the time they didn’t have ID on Trayvon. Zimmerman declined transport to the hospital.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2013-08-10   8:29:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: Jethro Tull (#159) (Edited)

Jethro Tull at #149: It was Zimmerman's decision to not go to the hospital, not the paramedics at the scene.

Me at #158: That's not what he says here at 35:56-36:56.

George Zimmerman Sanford Police Interview [Lie Detector-Polygraph] (February 27, 2012) - YouTube

Do you have another source?

Jethro Tull at #159: http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/fire-department/kevin-orourke-paramedic/

Name:

Kevin Patrick O’Rourke

Witness Summary: [Excerpts]

... They placed their 4-lead monitor on Martin and found he was asystole in all four leads. ... Zimmerman declined transport to the hospital.

At the axiomamnesia.com site: Florida Department of Law Enforcement – March 24, 2012 (~ min) [11:09 AM audio interview of Firefighter/EMT O’Rourke more than a year later]

axiomamnesia.com blurb: Zimmerman had what looked to be a fractured nose. Site Comment says that O'Rourke's lead crew member, Michael Brandy, wrote in the report that there was tenderness to the patient's nose.

At 2:44-2:50 of the audio, O'Rourke says they placed their 4-lead [monitor] on Martin and determined that he was dead then at 5:18-5:23 he says that Martin was assessed with 3-lead.

At 4:04-4:18, O'Rourke sounds agitated over being asked to clarify who he means by "we".

At 5:14-5:18, the questioner says he isn't a Medic and O'Rourke makes a reply about not having to use colloquial/informal speech. He then makes a strange statement at 5:28-5:34 that (after he disconnected Martin and walked away from that scene) he went to treat Nano-Zimmerman. Nano-Zimmerman?? Says there at Wikipedia that Nano is a prefix meaning a billionth; a Greek-derived prefix meaning dwarf; nanoscience/nanotechnology.

At 7:18-7:43 and again at 8:32-8:39, O'Rourke says that he recalls no statements made by Zimmerman in his presence. Meaning no statements from Zimmerman that he thought his nose or skull was fractured or that he was in pain and O'Rourke doesn't mention that he had a nosebleed.

Even if O'Rourke believed that Zimmerman declined hospital transport (in contrast with his comments about hearing no statements made by Zimmerman in his presence), that wouldn't be the same thing as hearing him decline transport there. If Zimmerman did decline an option of transport to a hospital instead of going to the police station first, then that would indicate he probably didn't think himself that he was very seriously injured or was more concerned with the financial aspect. However, he's indicated that the police made the decision to take him to the station for questioning first, evidently because he had not been determined at the scene to have been seriously injured enough to require stitches or fracture X-rays with immediacy or further treatment.

In addition to Zimmerman's CVSA-video statements cited above at 35:56-36:56 on the issue of his being transported directly to the police station, he also says with more detail earlier in the video at 0:06:38-0:07:26 that the police said they were going to bring him to the police station first. He says he spoke to his doctor later and was told that if he had been cleared at the site as not in emergency need of MRI/CT scans, that it was up to him if he wanted to pay for that after he was released from the police station. Around 0:04:40-0:05:00 he mentions his Psychologist and his medications at 0:15:27-0:15:47, Librax for his stomach and two narcotics: Aderall and Temazepam. Although he claims difficulty breathing through his nose at 35:04-25:15, it doesn't seem noticeable and he never complains of a headache from it being slammed into cement, nor does he appear to have trouble moving his neck and head.

Noting here also that he writes in the CVSA video with his left hand at 0:03:07-0:03:38 to sign for a swab-test, like he's ambidextrous -- gestures twice three times that his gun was on his right hip at 0:32:36-0:0:32:42, at 0:32:53-0:33:04, and at 0:41:37-0:41:40, as well as in his Reenactment video at 12:27-12:50.

Edited parenthesis wording at 3rd paragraph from the bottom + last paragraph.

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-08-11   21:23:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: GreyLmist (#166)

usatoday30.usatoday.com/n...medical-report/55022578/1

Crump said Wednesday the injuries cited in Zimmerman's medical report do not clear him of shooting Martin.

"You have to look at this in the full context," he said. "George Zimmerman made the decision to get out of his car, profile Trayvon Martin, pursue Trayvon Martin and confront him."

He said the report shows that Martin was fighting for his life and the altercation never would have happened if Zimmerman had not pursued the teen.

He also questioned the severity of Zimmerman's injuries. He said Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital at the scene

Jethro Tull  posted on  2013-08-11   21:56:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 168.

#173. To: Jethro Tull (#168)

usatoday30.usatoday.com/n...medical-report/55022578/1

[Crump] said Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital at the scene

No evidence is reported in that article to support Crump's claim and Zimmerman's own statements say otherwise. I gave you the coordinates at Post #166 to verify what Zimmerman said about that himself in the CVSA interview at 0:06:38-0:07:26 and 0:35:56-0:36:56.

GreyLmist  posted on  2013-08-12 05:36:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 168.

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