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Title: An Open Letter to the Parents of Trayvon Martin
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Published: Aug 6, 2013
Author: Glenda Wells
Post Date: 2013-08-06 00:10:23 by James Deffenbach
Keywords: None
Views: 2042
Comments: 237
Ms Fulton, Mr Martin I mourn your loss more than I can possibly say but let's be clear. Your son had as much opportunity to walk away as Mr Zimmerman did but chose instead to be aggressive himself. Just as a reminder, Mr Zimmerman did not use Stand Your Ground as a defense. The facts are indisputable that your son was on top and pounding Mr Zimmerman. Your son was not stalked. Mr Zimmerman was judged in a court of law to be not guilty therefore no punishment is warranted. Your son was depicted by the media as a young boy and portrayed as an innocent but let's be honest. We know that was not a true picture. Instead we learned you're son was a drug dealer and petty thief. Where were you when he should have been learning respect? Where were you when he needed the kind of guidance that would make him a good and decent man? Your efforts now seem like the desperate reach of parents trying to make up for in death what they failed in life. To think otherwise would paint you as a crass and heartless people looking for personal gain on the grave of a soul lost too soon. I am the Florida state coordinator for Gun Rights Across America. I represent more than 2,000 law abiding citizens who believe in our God-given right to defend ourselves, our families and our property against the kind of aggression displayed by your son that awful night and by countless thugs and criminals across the nation every day. GRAA has the support of thousands of members in every state and we have the backing of millions more in hundreds of Patriot and Constitutional groups around the country. We will fight any effort designed to give thugs and criminals power over law abiding citizens. We have no duty to retreat. We will not run and hide. We are many. We are mighty. And we vote. Respectfully and with heartfelt sadness. Glenda Wells
Gun Rights Across America, Florida State Coordinator
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#153. To: scrapper2 (#134)
(Edited)
That part is true. And just as any normal person would think and react, Trayvon reacted in fear and tried to defend himself. He died in his attempt. And like I said, had Trayvon been armed, chances are he'd still be alive. Somebody had posted on this forum that Trayvon was a juvenile delinquent. If that were true, Trayvon would have either been in the custody of the county or state under close supervision, or he'd have been under house arrest. And even were this the case, he would never have been allowed to walk the streets at night as he did. And since there is no record of him being under house arrest or serving time in county or state custody, Trayvon had just as much right to walk to the store and back home. He was a free young black man until, some trigger happy vigilante decided to take that freedom and life away from Trayvon. c. I thought you were the get-along gal who posted a few messages up. "I'd go crazy on their ass" doesn't sound very peace seeking, "I'm ok you're ok" per the persona you presented in message #83: Oh I am but if somebody is tailing me from behind with a loaded pistol, I am in fear of my life and will defend myself all the way. I will not cower like a pussy with my tail between my legs running home. I will fight!
Jethro Tull already posted that Saint Skittles own mother called juvenile detention FIRST when he came up missing. That speaks for itself. b.Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman was armed. There is no evidence that suggests Trayvon had any knowledge of Zimmerman being armed before the shooting took place.
#154. To: purplerose (#153)
Somebody had posted on this forum that Trayvon was a juvenile delinquent. If that were true
-Alex Kurtagic
#155. To: X-15 (#154)
I don't the Florida laws on this but it appears to me that the mother was aware her son was up and around the neighborhood and unless Florida Juvenile Detention Center has some exceptions to juveniles basic freedom and liberties then Trayvon really was a free man and had every right to be where he was.
#156. To: purplerose (#155)
I don't the Florida laws on this but it appears to me that the mother was aware her son was up There. Fixed it for you. I don't the Florida laws on this but it appears to me that the mother was aware her son was up and around the neighborhood
and to no good around the neighborhood...
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#157. To: abraxas, All (#82) (Edited)
Perhaps he isn't good with street names. Is that so difficult to believe? Hell, I don't remember the names of all the streets in my neighborhood either. Why is recall of street names such an important conspiracy theory aspect? Also it was dark and raining, so he couldn't simply see the street signs. He wanted to give the cop on the phone the correct information...wouldn't you want to do the same? Apparently, there are only 3 streets in the entire complex. Retreat View Circle goes all the way around it circularly and is the street Zimmerman lived on, as well as the fiancee of Trayvon's father on the other side of the neighborhood. Zimmerman lived where a short street named Long Oak Way went in a straight line to Twin Trees Lane, which is the main street that winds from the front entrance of the complex, along the clubhouse and to the back entrance. According to Zimmerman's statements, he knew that he wasn't on the huge, circling street that he lived on. He was on The Long and Winding Road, so it couldn't have been Long Oak Way, the short street that ran directly across from his house to Twin Trees Lane, the street he was on that night, which was the only one left of the three to pick from. He claimed in his police station interview to be unfamiliar with that street name because he didn't live on it [never mind his patrols of the area for months?] and because it was "just a sidestreet" that cut through the neighborhood. But everytime he went in and out of the complex in his vehicle (like his weekly trip to the grocery store, as he said he was doing that night), he would have had to encounter that street intersection, Twin Trees Lane -- the main thoroughfare connecting both gates, which he claimed to be unfamiliar with and so didn't know the name of it. George Zimmerman Sanford Police Interview [Lie Detector/Polygraph] (February 27, 2012) - at 27:12-27:24 of the video for that statement. Map link 1, Map link 2, Map link 3 There is much more than that about his statements which isn't credible. He never had to go beyond the house he parked in front of to get an address number by the garage door and say it was for the main street connecting the entrances or he could have gone a short distance to his left through the walkway between the buildings to get to an address for Retreat View Circle -- a street that he wasn't on but oddly wanted to give as directions for the police. Reference: Reenactment video 7:00-7:45. He did not shoot Trayvon to stop his head from being bashed into the cement. He says that he had moved off the cement and he stated numerous times to the police that he was being suffocated but then the screaming recorded likely wouldn't be his. Turns out that he wasn't even acting as an on-duty Neighborhood Watch Patrol that night and, reportedly, the HOA/Homeowners Association stated that they aren't supposed to be armed there. What he was acting like is a Janet Napolitano "See something, say something" spy/vigilante because someone who actually might still have been unfamiliar with the area was looking around... not walking fast enough in the rain... running... not running... looked out of place. Zimmerman's actions are comparative to the person who got their neighbor killed by the police because she reported him as up and about at strange hours when that was because he worked nights. Edited for spacing and capitalization + timestamp. Why didn't Zimmerman know the names of the streets he'd been in charge of patrolling for six months when he had lived in that neighborhood for years since 2009?
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#158. To: Jethro Tull (#149)
That's not what he says here at 35:56-36:56. Do you have another source? It was Zimmerman's decision to not go to the hospital, not the paramedics at the scene.
George Zimmerman Sanford Police Interview [Lie Detector-Polygraph] (February 27, 2012) - YouTube
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#159. To: GreyLmist (#158)
Name: Kevin Patrick O’Rourke Witness Summary: He has been a firefighter/EMT for 10 years. They responded to the incident while heading back to the station from another call. They arrived on the scene about 5 mins after the call, and there were police present. They were directed to the back of the building and where they were told was gunshot victim. They placed their 4-lead monitor on Martin and found he was asystole in all four leads. The medic on scene, Mike Brandy called it. They gathered their equipment, and the police told them there was another patient. Zimmerman had what looked to be a fractured nose. Bleeding was under control, and he had lacerations on the back of his head. They cleaned him up and headed on their way. They cleaned blood off his hands and face. They left him in the care of the Sanford Police Department. O’Rourke was Rescue 38, he and his partner, Mike Brandy. The medic on the scene is in charge of the scene. He got on the scene and he grabbed the airway bag. He placed him on the monitor, if he remembers–he put the stickers on him. Once it was done, he disconnected him. He says the monitor indicated no heartbeat whatsoever. “He is DOA and unworkable.” Mike Brandy is responsible for making that call. Martin was DOA, and was never conscious. He had a gunshot wound to the chest. His shirt was already rolled up. They had been busy that night. At the time they didn’t have ID on Trayvon. Zimmerman declined transport to the hospital.http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/fire-department/kevin-orourke-paramedic/
#160. To: Jethro Tull (#151)
No felonious assault against Zimmerman was said to be witnessed, just a fight in-process and Zimmerman said that he had moved to the grass, so he did not shoot Martin to stop his head from being banged into cement. At #30, you said: You seem to be saying there that if an unarmed person is defending themself successfully in a struggle against an attacker, their attacker can shoot them to death in the heart and that is considered necessary force for the attacker's self defense, so they shouldn't be charged with anything if they claim the deceased made them fear for their life. Additionally, even though Zimmerman says the fight had moved to the grass where he wasn't in danger of the cement and his face didn't appear to have been beaten (just a small scratch on his nose and a small mark or two on his head alleged to the fight) and his hands showed no signs of a defensive struggle in a life threatening situation, you seem to be saying that it's ok to end a fisticuffs fight by shooting someone to death in the heart -- all that's required for that to be considered "necessary deadly force in self defense" is to claim to have been in fear of losing their own life, since the dead person can't contest the claim. That seems like it would be one way to reduce the workload of the police and courts but not reasonably. Zimmerman used necessary force to terminate a potential life threatening felonious assault.
Who struck first has zero to do with the use of necessary force to defend oneself from deadly physical force. To be clearer, let's assume Z struck Martin first. If TM responded by beating Z to the point he feared for his life, Z was within his rights to use necessary force to stop the attack. It's called self defense.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#161. To: GreyLmist (#160)
John Good, from 20' away, witness TM on top of Z, beating him about the face & body "MMA style" *while* Zs head was on the concrete walkway, ergo, felonious assault given Zs subsequent injuries.
#162. To: GreyLmist (#160)
The unarmed person (TM) was the aggressor, and not the defender. Again, according to the sole eye witness, John Good, Z (the defender) was yelling for help. The jurists believed Z was indeed losing the fight badly as we subsequently learned and justifiably used deadly physical force to terminate the attack. Had TM survived he would have been charged with felonious assault. You seem to be saying there that if an unarmed person is defending themself successfully in a struggle against an attacker, their attacker can shoot them to death in the heart and that is considered necessary force for the attacker's self defense, so they shouldn't be charged with anything if they claim the deceased made them fear for their life.
#163. To: GreyLmist (#160)
Just the opposite happened. It moved from the grass up to the cement walkway. See Good's testimony. Additionally, even though Zimmerman says the fight had moved to the grass where he wasn't in danger of the cement
#164. To: GreyLmist (#160)
and his face didn't appear to have been beaten (just a small scratch on his nose and a small mark or two on his head
alleged (accepted in court as true, not alleged) to the fight) 
#165. To: GreyLmist (#160)
and a small mark or two on his head
alleged (not alleged, his injuries were accepted by the State as having been caused by TM) to the fight 
#166. To: Jethro Tull (#159) (Edited)
Me at #158: That's not what he says here at 35:56-36:56. Do you have another source? Jethro Tull at #159: http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/people/fire-department/kevin-orourke-paramedic/ Name: Kevin Patrick O’Rourke Witness Summary: [Excerpts] ... They placed their 4-lead monitor on Martin and found he was asystole in all four leads. ... Zimmerman declined transport to the hospital. At the axiomamnesia.com site: Florida Department of Law Enforcement – March 24, 2012 (~ min) [11:09 AM audio interview of Firefighter/EMT O’Rourke more than a year later] axiomamnesia.com blurb: Zimmerman had what looked to be a fractured nose. Site Comment says that O'Rourke's lead crew member, Michael Brandy, wrote in the report that there was tenderness to the patient's nose. At 2:44-2:50 of the audio, O'Rourke says they placed their 4-lead [monitor] on Martin and determined that he was dead then at 5:18-5:23 he says that Martin was assessed with 3-lead. At 4:04-4:18, O'Rourke sounds agitated over being asked to clarify who he means by "we". At 5:14-5:18, the questioner says he isn't a Medic and O'Rourke makes a reply about not having to use colloquial/informal speech. He then makes a strange statement at 5:28-5:34 that (after he disconnected Martin and walked away from that scene) he went to treat Nano-Zimmerman. Nano-Zimmerman?? Says there at Wikipedia that Nano is a prefix meaning a billionth; a Greek-derived prefix meaning dwarf; nanoscience/nanotechnology. At 7:18-7:43 and again at 8:32-8:39, O'Rourke says that he recalls no statements made by Zimmerman in his presence. Meaning no statements from Zimmerman that he thought his nose or skull was fractured or that he was in pain and O'Rourke doesn't mention that he had a nosebleed. Even if O'Rourke believed that Zimmerman declined hospital transport (in contrast with his comments about hearing no statements made by Zimmerman in his presence), that wouldn't be the same thing as hearing him decline transport there. If Zimmerman did decline an option of transport to a hospital instead of going to the police station first, then that would indicate he probably didn't think himself that he was very seriously injured or was more concerned with the financial aspect. However, he's indicated that the police made the decision to take him to the station for questioning first, evidently because he had not been determined at the scene to have been seriously injured enough to require stitches or fracture X-rays with immediacy or further treatment. In addition to Zimmerman's CVSA-video statements cited above at 35:56-36:56 on the issue of his being transported directly to the police station, he also says with more detail earlier in the video at 0:06:38-0:07:26 that the police said they were going to bring him to the police station first. He says he spoke to his doctor later and was told that if he had been cleared at the site as not in emergency need of MRI/CT scans, that it was up to him if he wanted to pay for that after he was released from the police station. Around 0:04:40-0:05:00 he mentions his Psychologist and his medications at 0:15:27-0:15:47, Librax for his stomach and two narcotics: Aderall and Temazepam. Although he claims difficulty breathing through his nose at 35:04-25:15, it doesn't seem noticeable and he never complains of a headache from it being slammed into cement, nor does he appear to have trouble moving his neck and head. Noting here also that he writes in the CVSA video with his left hand at 0:03:07-0:03:38 to sign for a swab-test, like he's ambidextrous -- gestures Edited parenthesis wording at 3rd paragraph from the bottom + last paragraph. Jethro Tull at #149: It was Zimmerman's decision to not go to the hospital, not the paramedics at the scene.
George Zimmerman Sanford Police Interview [Lie Detector-Polygraph] (February 27, 2012) - YouTube
twice three times that his gun was on his right hip at 0:32:36-0:0:32:42, at 0:32:53-0:33:04, and at 0:41:37-0:41:40, as well as in his Reenactment video at 12:27-12:50.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#167. To: Jethro Tull (#165)
The State could be wrong about that. not alleged, his injuries were accepted by the State as having been caused by TM
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#168. To: GreyLmist (#166)
Crump said Wednesday the injuries cited in Zimmerman's medical report do not clear him of shooting Martin. "You have to look at this in the full context," he said. "George Zimmerman made the decision to get out of his car, profile Trayvon Martin, pursue Trayvon Martin and confront him." He said the report shows that Martin was fighting for his life and the altercation never would have happened if Zimmerman had not pursued the teen. He also questioned the severity of Zimmerman's injuries. He said Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital at the scene usatoday30.usatoday.com/n...medical-report/55022578/1
#169. To: GreyLmist (#167)
You would know about being wrong. The State could be wrong about that.
#170. To: Jethro Tull (#169)
foolish words talking about the person like a small mind rather than the issue like a gentleman. You would know about being wrong.
______________________________________
Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) (It's a more positive message)
#171. To: Jethro Tull (#163)
Just the opposite happened. It moved from the grass up to the cement walkway. See Good's testimony. See Zimmerman's own statements about that -- here for example, where he clearly tells Hannity that he was able to get from the cement to the grass: video.foxnews.com: Interview segment with Sean Hannity at 5:20-5:39 Also, in the first 33 seconds of that video interview, he talks about walking to Retreat View Circle at the end of the long sidewalk where he thought he would meet with a police officer but he didn't wait there or give the non-emergency dispatcher an address for that street as directions (who he said he was on the phone with at the time in his CVSA interview at 0:28:50-0:30:32 and had claimed then was the reason he walked to that street). He could have gotten to an address for Retreat View Circle quicker by the walkway between the buildings to his left when he got out of his vehicle but giving any address for that street would delay the police (and EMT, if needed) from reaching the correct location from there. Even simpler, he could have gotten an address number for the street he was actually parked on (Twin Trees Lane - not Retreat View Circle) from the house in front of him or the one next door to it. Additionally, even though Zimmerman says the fight had moved to the grass where he wasn't in danger of the cement
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#172. To: Jethro Tull (#162)
There is no evidence that TM was the aggressor and Good's testimony isn't evidence of that. He did not see the start of the fight. The news footage of Z at the station that night doesn't show that he was losing the fight badly and neither do the videos the next day of his Reenactment and his CVSA interview. Justifiable use of deadly force to terminate an unarmed physical fight is not indicated by his appearance in any of those films and his hands showed no defensive wounds. The unarmed person (TM) was the aggressor, and not the defender. Again, according to the sole eye witness, John Good, Z (the defender) was yelling for help. The jurists believed Z was indeed losing the fight badly as we subsequently learned and justifiably used deadly physical force to terminate the attack.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#173. To: Jethro Tull (#168)
[Crump] said Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital at the scene No evidence is reported in that article to support Crump's claim and Zimmerman's own statements say otherwise. I gave you the coordinates at Post #166 to verify what Zimmerman said about that himself in the CVSA interview at 0:06:38-0:07:26 and 0:35:56-0:36:56. usatoday30.usatoday.com/n...medical-report/55022578/1
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#174. To: GreyLmist (#172)
Wrong. We're talking about what Good testified to. He testified that TM was on top of Z "in the dominate position" delivering blows to Z "MMA, ground and pound style." Further, he testified that Z was screaming for help. Once again you mind has managed to skip off into areas that haven't been testified to. There is no evidence that TM was the aggressor and Good's testimony isn't evidence of that
#175. To: GreyLmist (#173)
Zimmerman refused to be hospitalized. This is sworn testimony of the first police officer on the scene. Officer Timothy Smith of the Sanford Police Department, the first officer on the scene, testified that Mr. Zimmerman, although he complained of dizziness, ultimately declined to be taken to the hospital. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/29/us/neighbor-describes-glimpse-of-fight-in-zimmerman-case.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
#176. To: titorite (#170)
So how's that "proof" of yours coming? You know, the proof that you claim to have that Martin was being chased by Zimmerman door to door while Martin was screaming for help...
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#177. To: GreyLmist (#172)
Good Lord, since you seem to believe that Zimmerman is a minion of Satan, if not the devil himself, why don't you make it your mission to hunt him down and kill him? You do realize the jury didn't agree with you and found him not guilty so why do you persist? I believed O.J. Simpson was guilty of murdering his wife and Ron Goldman too and I think that he got away with it because of his race and money. But I don't know that I took on as much over that as some of you have over poor Saint Skittles (who was actually a thug in real life).
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#178. To: James Deffenbach, Former Lurker (#177)
When a person is proven to have gotten a fact wrong, the honorable thing to do is to acknowledge their error and move on. What's happening in this thread is a prime example of ignorance, as in lack of knowledge, coupled with a juvenile conspiratorial mindset.
#179. To: All (#157) (Edited)
Cross-referencing info at Post #49 of 4um Title: New Mural In Florida’s Capitol Building Shows Zimmerman Shooting Trayvon Martin Edited for spelling.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#180. To: Jethro Tull (#174)
Wrong. We're talking about what Good testified to. He testified that TM was on top of Z "in the dominate position" delivering blows to Z "MMA, ground and pound style." Further, he testified that Z was screaming for help. That has nothing to do with seeing who was the aggressor/assaulter in starting the fight -- just a fight in process. You probably know that, really, but have some reason for insisting otherwise and making matters needlessly worse so that people lose even more hope and confidence in any due process in this country. There is no evidence that TM was the aggressor and Good's testimony isn't evidence of that
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#181. To: Jethro Tull (#178)
It's hard for any of us to admit we're wrong about something but we are all wrong at times. And you are right, the honorable thing to do is to own up to it and thank those who have pointed out where you were in error. But we don't see much of that and none on this thread. When a person is proven to have gotten a fact wrong, the honorable thing to do is to acknowledge their error and move on. What's happening in this thread is a prime example of ignorance, as in lack of knowledge, coupled with a juvenile conspiratorial mindset.
Americans who have no experience with, or knowledge of, tyranny believe that only terrorists will experience the unchecked power of the state. They will believe this until it happens to them, or their children, or their friends.
Paul Craig Roberts
#182. To: GreyLmist (#180)
Show me anywhere, on this thread or elsewhere, where I argued who started the fight. Unlike you I'm not speculating on things that aren't in evidence, I'm simply offering you material that has been testified to, and subsequently accepted by the jury as fact. Now, don't leave this point you raised; show me *anywhere* where I argued as to who started the fight. If you aren't able to find it, be mature enough to acknowledge it. That has nothing to do with seeing who was the aggressor/assaulter in starting the fight
#183. To: Jethro Tull (#175) (Edited)
Zimmerman refused to be hospitalized. This is sworn testimony of the first police officer on the scene. Officer Timothy Smith of the Sanford Police Department, the first officer on the scene, testified that Mr. Zimmerman, although he complained of dizziness, ultimately declined to be taken to the hospital. What are you trying to prove by ignoring Zimmerman's own statements that I've posted more than once? That he didn't think he was seriously injured? That he refused to go to the hospital unless Sanford paid those bills? That he lied in his statements? I don't know what your point is on this but no matter how many sources you cite to the contrary, Zimmerman himself stated that the police made the decision to transport him directly to the station and he did not opt to go to the hospital on his own after he was released from questioning either. Edited for spelling + grammar, last sentence. http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/29/us/neighbor- describes-glimpse-of-fight-in-zimmerman-case.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#184. To: GreyLmist, 4 (#183)
35:56 - 36:56 In the vid you provide, Z never discusses how that decision to go directly to the police station was arrived at. The sworn court testimony I've provided should clear up that part of your tangled conspiracy; he declined to be transported to the hospital at the scene of the shooting because that's what he wanted. Now, given that it's only you still arguing the outcome of the trial (yes, even Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and Obama have dumped it) I strongly suggest you reconsider the evidence and join the real world. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjRp-vIvTNg
#185. To: GreyLmist (#183)
What, no answer? Ping to #182
#186. To: Jethro Tull, James Deffenbach (#182)
James Deffenbach at #181: It's hard for any of us to admit we're wrong about something but we are all wrong at times. And you are right, the honorable thing to do is to own up to it and thank those who have pointed out where you were in error. But we don't see much of that and none on this thread. Jethro Tull to me at #182: Show me anywhere, on this thread or elsewhere, where I argued who started the fight. Unlike you I'm not speculating on things that aren't in evidence, I'm simply offering you material that has been testified to, and subsequently accepted by the jury as fact. Now, don't leave this point you raised; show me *anywhere* where I argued as to who started the fight. If you aren't able to find it, be mature enough to acknowledge it. All throughout this thread, I have been discussing the issue of who started the fight in terms of the aggressor/assaulter. At #162, JT, you said: "The unarmed person (TM) was the aggressor, and not the defender. Again, according to the sole eye witness, John Good, Z (the defender) was yelling for help. ... Had TM survived he would have been charged with felonious assault." When I disagreed at #172, saying: "There is no evidence that TM was the aggressor and Good's testimony isn't evidence of that", you replied at #174 that was wrong and went into Good's testimony again as proof. My understanding was that we were discussing the aggressor/assaulter as the starter of the fight. You are claiming now, seemingly, to have a different interpretation of such terms, as if to mean TM overpowering GZ at the time John Good observed the situation and not that TM started the fight. I don't see that I erred in my view of the terms aggressor/assault but would not refuse to apologize if wrong. I apologize if I misunderstood your meaning but it sounds confusing to me and like moving the goal posts, unintentionally or not. As for the limited perspectives alluded to at #178, imo, that would be conspiratorially confining the scope of this as an Op to merely the Media's usual bag of racebaiting tricks, inflammatory hyping and "journalistic" deceit. Jethro Tull at #178: When a person is proven to have gotten a fact wrong, the honorable thing to do is to acknowledge their error and move on. What's happening in this thread is a prime example of ignorance, as in lack of knowledge, coupled with a juvenile conspiratorial mindset.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#187. To: GreyLmist (#186)
I've only discussed what's in evidence, that would include Zs statement as to how it started, but I've never argued how it began. In fact, for the sake of debate, I've stated even if Z started the fight, TM was constrained by law to use only necessary force to terminate the assault. John Good, incredibly a witness for the prosecution, turned the case with his (already discussed too much) testimony, IMO. My understanding was that we were discussing the aggressor/assaulter as the starter of the fight.
#188. To: Jethro Tull (#184) (Edited)
In the vid you provide, Z never discusses how that decision to go directly to the police station was arrived at. The sworn court testimony I've provided should clear up that part of your tangled conspiracy; he declined to be transported to the hospital at the scene of the shooting because that's what he wanted. I also cited this section: 0:06:38-0:07:26 as well as 0:35:56-0:36:56. He never indicates that he refused transport or that it was his decision to make. He says that the police made that decision. If he was seriously injured enough to require further treatment immediately, likely he would have been transported to the hospital whether he wanted to go or not. I don't know what you mean by a tangled conspiracy about that, except to insult, or what your point is in arguing about it but I'm out of time right now to go round and round about it. Edited for formatting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjRp- vIvTNg
35:56 - 36:56
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#189. To: Jethro Tull (#187)
I've discussed what's in evidence too. The evidence from Zimmerman himself is that he had moved to the grass before the time of the shooting and so wasn't having his head banged into the cement. Reference the Hannity video segment I cited above on that. I've only discussed what's in evidence, that would include Zs statement as to how it started, but I've never argued how it began. In fact, for the sake of debate, I've stated even if Z started the fight, TM was constrained by law to use only necessary force to terminate the assault. John Good, incredibly a witness for the prosecution, turned the case with his (already discussed too much) testimony, IMO.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#190. To: GreyLmist, The Mystic Knights of Tir Na Nog, 4 (#189)
Show me. You do realize that nobody but you, and perhaps King Samir Shabazz of the New Black Panther Party, believe this right? The evidence from Zimmerman himself is that he had moved to the grass before the time of the shooting and so wasn't having his head banged into the cement
#191. To: GreyLmist, 4 (#188)
49:45 - 50:30 As per trial testimony, it was Zs decision whether to go to hospital or not. He chose to go directly to the police station. Now, if you're still are confused I suggest you call the Sanford PD, ask for Officer Timothy Smith, and call him a liar. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xJWmVvuhnU
#192. To: Jethro Tull (#190)
Show me. I already posted evidence of that at #171: ... he clearly tells Hannity that he was able to get from the cement to the grass: Here's the relevant transcript verification: HANNITY: ... And you made a statement to the police you wanted to get to the grass. Was that to prevent your head from banging on to the cement again? The Big Numbers Song - Video link set to start at 2:15 I realize that's what you are claiming but I think you are underestimating the number of people you've overlooked. The evidence from Zimmerman himself is that he had moved to the grass before the time of the shooting and so wasn't having his head banged into the cement
video.foxnews.com: Interview segment with Sean Hannity at 5:20-5:39
FOX Exclusive: George Zimmerman breaks silence on 'Hannity' - Transcript, Pg. 4
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.
HANNITY: How close was that in proximity?
ZIMMERMAN: It butts up into the concrete.
HANNITY: And were you able to get to the grass?
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir.You do realize that nobody but you, and perhaps King Samir Shabazz of the New Black Panther Party, believe this right?
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#193. To: GreyLmist (#192)
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir. Do you realize this comment you are offering is a statement by Z which indicates he was wanting to get on to the grass to prevent additional blows to his head on the cement? Does that get thru to you? HANNITY: ... And you made a statement to the police you wanted to get to the grass. Was that to prevent your head from banging on to the cement again?
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