[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help] 

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

Warning America About Palantir: Richie From Boston

I'm not done asking questions about the killing of Charlie Kirk.

6 reasons the stock market bubble is worse than anyone expected.

Elon Musk: Charlie Kirk was killed because his words made a difference.

Try It For 5 Days! - The Most EFFICIENT Way To LOSE FAT

Number Of US Student Visas Issued To Asians Tumbles

Range than U.S HIMARS, Russia Unveils New Variant of 300mm Rocket Launcher on KamAZ-63501 Chassis

Keir Starmer’s Hidden Past: The Cases Nobody Talks About

BRICS Bombshell! Putin & China just DESTROYED the U.S. Dollar with this gold move

Clashes, arrests as tens of thousands protest flood-control corruption in Philippines

The death of Yu Menglong: Political scandal in China (Homo Rape & murder of Actor)

The Pacific Plate Is CRACKING: A Massive Geological Disaster Is Unfolding!

Waste Of The Day: Veterans' Hospital Equipment Is Missing

The Earth Has Been Shaken By 466,742 Earthquakes So Far In 2025

LadyX

Half of the US secret service and every gov't three letter agency wants Trump dead. Tomorrow should be a good show

1963 Chrysler Turbine

3I/ATLAS is Beginning to Reveal What it Truly Is

Deep Intel on the Damning New F-35 Report

CONFIRMED “A 757 did NOT hit the Pentagon on 9/11” says Military witnesses on the scene

NEW: Armed man detained at site of Kirk memorial: Report

$200 Silver Is "VERY ATTAINABLE In Coming Rush" Here's Why - Mike Maloney

Trump’s Project 2025 and Big Tech could put 30% of jobs at risk by 2030

Brigitte Macron is going all the way to a U.S. court to prove she’s actually a woman

China's 'Rocket Artillery 360 Mile Range 990 Pound Warhead

FED's $3.5 Billion Gold Margin Call

France Riots: Battle On Streets Of Paris Intensifies After Macron’s New Move Sparks Renewed Violence

Saudi Arabia Pakistan Defence pact agreement explained | Geopolitical Analysis

Fooling Us Badly With Psyops

The Nobel Prize That Proved Einstein Wrong


Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Censorship and Free Speech
Source: jerf.org
URL Source: http://www.jerf.org/writings/communicationEthics/node5.html
Published: Dec 3, 2005
Author: ?
Post Date: 2005-12-03 08:40:00 by A K A Stone
Keywords: Censorship, Speech, Free
Views: 1485
Comments: 206

In the United States, we have the First Amendment of the Constitution that guarantees us certain things.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

This is less of a concern to some countries, such as China. However, modern communication capabilities can affect free speech in a lot of ways, both enhancing and diminishing, depending on how it is used. No matter how you look at it, freedom of speech will be affected in every country.

What's The Difference?

Censorship and free speech are often seen as being two sides of the same thing, censorship often defined as ``the suppression of free speech''. Perhaps there is nothing wrong with this definition, but for my purposes, I find I need better definitions. My definitions have no particular force, of course, but when grappling with problems, one must often clearly define things before one can even begin discussing the problem, let alone solving it. Thus, I will establish my own personal definitions. There is nothing necessarily wrong with the traditional definitions, but it turns out that the analysis I want to do is not possible with a fuzzy conception of what ``free speech'' is.

Free Speech

It's typically bad essay form to start a section with a dictionary definition, but since I want to contrast my definition with the conventional dictionary definition, it's hard to start with anything else. Free speech is defined by http://dictionary.com as

free speech The right to express any opinion in public without censorship or restraint by the government.

This definition misses some critical aspects of our common usage of the term. For instance, free speech is of no value if nobody is allowed to listen to the speech; people in solitary confinement have perfectly free speech, but that does not mean that we would have considered it an acceptable solution to lock up Martin Luther King Jr. in solitary confinement and let him preach what he may; along with the obvious unjust imprisionment we would consider this to be an obvious example of trampling on free speech. We should also consider the right to free speech as the right to listen to anybody we choose (subject to possible exceptions later), thus

free speech The right to express any opinion in public without censorship or restraint by the government, and the corresponding right to experience anybody's expressions in public without censorship or restraint by government.

I use ``experience'' here as a general verb: One listens to a speech, watches a movie, reads a book or webpage, etc.

Since I don't want to define free speech in terms of censorship, lets remove that and put in its place what people are really afraid of.

free speech The right to express any opinion in public, and the corresponding right to experience anybody's expressions in public, without being pressured, denied access, arrested, or otherwise punished by the government.

This definition really only applies to people in a government-controlled territory, like a public park. If one looks around at all of the various ways of expressing ourselves, we find that the government does not own very many of them. In common usage of the term ``free speech'', we expect ``free speech'' to allow us to say that a corporation ``sucks'', express our opinions about pop music stars, and review movies, without the non-governmental entities we are talking about, or that own the means of expression, being able to suppress our speech merely because they don't like it.

Considering both the target of the speech and the publisher of the speech is necessary. Suppose I use an Earthlink-hosted web page to criticise a Sony-released movie. If Earthlink can suppress my speech for any reason they please (on the theory that they own the wires and the site hosting), and have no legal or ethical motivation to not suppress the speech, then in theory, all Sony would have to do is convince Earthlink it is in their best interest to remove my site. The easiest way to do that is simply cut Earthlink a check exceeding the value to Earthlink of continuing to host my page, which is a trivial amount of money to Sony. In the absence of any other considerations, most people would consider this a violation of my right to ``free speech'', even though there may be nothing actually illegal in this scenario. So if we allow the owner of the means of expression to shut down our speech for any reason they see fit, it's only a short economic step to allow the target of the expression to have undue influence, especially an age where the gap between one person's resources and one corporation's resources continues to widen.

Hence the legal concept of a common carrier, both obligated to carry speech regardless of content and legally protected from the content of that speech. The ``safe harbor'' provisions in the DMCA, which further clarified this in the case of online message transmission systems, is actually a good part of the DMCA often overlooked by people who read too much Slashdot and think all of the DMCA is bad. The temptation to hold companies like Earthlink responsible for the content of their customers arises periodically, but it's important to resist this, because there's almost no way to not abuse the corresponding power to edit their customer's content.

I also change ``opinion'' to expression, to better fit the context of this definition, and let's call this ``the right to free speech'':

the right to free speech The right to express any expression in public, and the corresponding right to experience anybody's expressions in public, without being pressured, denied access, arrested, or otherwise punished by anyone.

There are standard exceptions to free speech, for instance ``libel'', ``slander'', ``threats'', and ``community standards.'' In my opinion, these are not deeply affected by the Internet era, with the exception of what the definition of a ``community'' is. I want to leave that for later. Thus, my final definition is

the right to free speech The right to express any expression in public, and the corresponding right to experience anybody's expressions in public, without being pressured, denied access, arrested, or otherwise punished by anyone, subject to somewhat fuzzy, but fairly well-understood exceptions.

It should be easily seen that this accurately reflects what we've known as free speech into the Internet domain (and indeed any other domain with equal ease). We can express, subject to the usual limitations, anything we want on a web page, in an e-mail, or with an instant message, and we are free to receive those expression. Unlike people behind restrictive national firewalls in countries such as China where there is no guarantee of free speech, we are largely allowed to access anything we wish.

Though it's not directly related to the definition of free speech, I'd like to add that we expect people to fund their expressions of free speech themselves, and the complementary expectation that nobody is obligated to fund speech they disagree with. For instance, we don't expect people to host comments that are critical about them on their own site.

By far the most important thing that this definition captures that the conventional definitions do not is the symmetry required of true free speech. Free speech is not merely defined in terms of the speakers, but also the listeners.

Censorship

For structural symmetry with the Free Speech section, let's go ahead and start with the dictionary definition:

Censorship Censorship is the act of censoring.

OK, that was particularly useless.

The best way to understand my definition of censoring is to consider the stereotypical example of military censorship. During World War II, when Allied soldiers wrote home from the front, all correspondence going home was run through [human] censors to remove any references that might allow someone to place where that soldier was, what that soldier was armed with, etc. The theory was that if that information was removed, it couldn't end up in the hands of the enemy, which could be detrimental to the war effort. The soldier (sender) sent the message home (receiver) via the postal service as a letter (medium). The government censors intercepted that message and modified it before sending it on. If the censor so chose, they could even completely intercept the letter and prevent anything from reaching home.

This leads me naturally to my basic definition of censorship:

Censorship Censorship is the act of changing a message, including the change of deletion (complete elimination of the message), between the sender and the receiver.

Censorship is not always evil; few would argue that when practiced responsibly, military censorship as described above is truly ethically wrong. Censorship is a tool like anything else, it can be used to accomplish good or evil. But like war, censorship must be used sparingly, and only when truly necessary.

The Middleman - Not Censorship

There is one last thing that we must take into account, and that is the middleman. Newspapers often receive a press release, but they may process, digest, and editorialize on the basis of that press release, not simply run the press release directly. The Internet is granting astonishing new capabilities to the middlemen, in addition to making the older ways of pre-processing information even easier, and we should not label those all as censorship.

Fortunately, there is a simple criterion we can apply. Do both the sender and the receiver agree to use this information middleman? If so, then no censorship is occurring. This seems intuitive; newspapers aren't really censoring, they're just being newspapers.

You could look at this as not being censorship only as long as the middlemen are being truthful about what sort of information manipulation they are performing. You could equally well say that it is impossible to characterize how a message is being manipulated because a message is such a complicated thing once you take context into account. Basically, since this is simply a side-issue that won't gain us anything, so we leave it to the sender, receiver, and middleman to defend their best interests. It takes the agreement of all three to function, which can be removed at any time, so there is always an out.

For example, many news sites syndicate headlines and allow anybody to display them, including mine. If a news site runs two articles, one for some position and one against, and some syndication user only runs one of the stories, you might claim that distorts the meaning of the original articles taken together. Perhaps this is true, but if the original news site was worried about this occurring, perhaps those stories should not have been syndicated, or perhaps they should have been bound more tightly together, or perhaps this isn't really a distortion. Syndication implies that messages will exist in widely varying contexts.

Like anything else, there is some flex room here. The really important point is to agree that the criterion is basically correct. We can argue about the exact limits later.

So, my final definition:

censorship Censorship is the act of changing a message, including the act of deletion, between the sender and the receiver, without the sender's and receiver's consent and knowledge.

In terms of the communication model, censorship occurs when somebody interrupts or interferes with the medium such that a message is tampered with while traveling from the sender to the receiver.

The Difference

Going back to the original communication model I outlined earlier, the critical difference between the two definitions becomes clear. Free speech is defined in terms of the endpoints, in terms of the rights of the senders and receivers. Censorship is defined in terms of control over the medium.

The methods of suppressing free speech and the methods of censoring are very different. Suppression of free speech tends to occur through political or legal means. Someone is thrown in jail for criticizing the government, and the police exert their power to remove the controversial content from the Internet. On the receiver's side, consider China, which is an entire country who's government has decided that there are publicly available sites on the Internet that will simply not be available to anybody in that country, such as the Wall Street Journal. Suppressing free speech does not really require a high level of technology, just a high level of vigilance, which all law enforcement requires anyhow.

Censorship, on the other hand, is taking primarily technological forms. Since messages flow on the Internet at speeds vastly surpassing any human's capabilities to understand or process, technology is being developed that attempts to censor Internet content, with generally atrocious results. (A site called Peacefire http://www.peacefire.org has been good at documenting the failures of some of the most popular censorware, as censoring software is known.) Nevertheless, the appeal of such technology to some people is such that in all likelihood, money will continue to be thrown at the problem until some vaguely reasonable method of censorship is found.

Combating Censorship and Free Speech Suppression

The ways of combating suppression of free speech and censorship must also differ. Censorship is primarily technological, and thus technological answers may be found to prevent censorship, though making it politically or legally unacceptable can work. Suppression of free speech, on the other hand, is primarily political and legal, and in order to truly win the battle for free speech, political and legal power will need to be brought to bear.

These definitions are crafted to fit into the modern model of communication I am using, and I have defined them precisely enough that hopefully we can recognize it when we see it, because technology-based censorship can take some truly surprising forms, which we'll see as we go.

Summary

* Free speech is the right to express any expression in public, and the corresponding right to experience anybody's expressions in public, without being pressured, denied access, arrested, or otherwise punished by anyone, subject to somewhat fuzzy, but fairly well-understood exceptions. * Censorship is the act of changing a message, including the act of deletion, between the sender and the receiver, without the sender's and receiver's consent and knowledge.

[Thread Locked]   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 31.

#4. To: A K A Stone (#0)

In the United States, we have the First Amendment of the Constitution that guarantees us certain things.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

And on a private website you have no such guarantees.

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

82Marine89  posted on  2005-12-03   9:28:14 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: 82Marine89 (#4)

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

you sound like a nice little fascist. You were the one who started a vanity thread for the purpose of saying that Coral Snake should not be able to post here. I also have seen you gloat on LP about how war is good. a little fascist you are.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-03   9:38:58 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Red Jones (#5)

I posted his thread as humor. I never asked for him to be banned. I thought it was funny how he made a big deal about posting here and told christine this would be his new home and two weeks later, he cuts a deal with RimJob.

As for the WOT, I never said war was good, it isn't. War is a necessary evil.

82Marine89  posted on  2005-12-03   9:42:53 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: 82Marine89 (#7)

As for the WOT, I never said war was good, it isn't. War is a necessary evil.

you are a cheerleader for this war in Iraq. I have read your comments at LP that say so.

there is no justification whatsoever for this war. you are a fascist pig to support it.

you accomplish nothing but gossip and self-gratification on any of the forums you participate in. and then you complain that others speak.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-03   9:46:26 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Red Jones (#8)

you are a cheerleader for this war in Iraq. I have read your comments at LP that say so.

there is no justification whatsoever for this war. you are a fascist pig to support it.

Yes, I support the WOT. I also support what we are doing in Iraq. Do I think Saddam had WMD's? Yes. Do I think he either disposed of them or hid them? Yes. Do I think he was an idiot for calling America's bluff? Absolutely. If he had nothing to hide, then why did he make life so miserable for the weapons inspectors?

accomplish nothing but gossip and self-gratification on any of the forums you participate in. and then you complain that others speak.

Every forum is gossip and no I don't complain that others speak. I called Stone a whiner and CS a hypocrite. As for self-gratification, that is only done in private.

82Marine89  posted on  2005-12-03   10:54:01 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: 82Marine89, A K A Stone (#10)

do you think that Donald Rumsfeld was wrong in the 1980's to support Saddam Hussein?

Do you think that the US was wrong to give Saddam Hussein 40 billion dollars worth of cash & goods during the 1980's?

Do you think that the US was wrong to transfer chemical & biological weapons know-how & materials to Saddam Hussein during the 1980's?

Do you support the US sniper who shot and killed a 6 year old Iraqi boy in Fallujah?

Do you actually believe that the American homeland is made safer by attacking foreign nations who did not attack us?

Do you believe that the US government should respect the will of the American people, if so how do you justify continuing the war when 60% of the Americans want to end it?

In hindsight was it wrong for the US to court saddam hussein with paychecks and special relationship in 1957 when Saddam was 18 years old?

Was it wrong for the US to support Saddam Hussein during the coup where Saddam took power in 1979?

Was it a mistake for US ambassador April Gilespie to tell Saddam Hussein that the US didn't care if he invaded Kuwait in 1989? Or was she engaging in the war on terror at that time?

Was the US wrong to impose economic sanctions on Iraq during the 1990's and thus kill 500,000 Iraqi children? Or should the brown muslims be wiped out? and is this effort to kill Iraqis inherent to the war on terror?

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-03   11:08:05 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Red Jones (#11)

do you think that Donald Rumsfeld was wrong in the 1980's to support Saddam Hussein?

Do you think that the US was wrong to give Saddam Hussein 40 billion dollars worth of cash & goods during the 1980's?

Do you think that the US was wrong to transfer chemical & biological weapons know-how & materials to Saddam Hussein during the 1980's?

It's called an unholy alliance. Happens all the time.

Do you support the US sniper who shot and killed a 6 year old Iraqi boy in Fallujah?

Haven't heard that one.

Do you actually believe that the American homeland is made safer by attacking foreign nations who did not attack us?

We went there to enforce U.N. resolutions regarding WMD's, but yes, I do feel safer knowing the terrorists are fighting us there and not here.

Do you believe that the US government should respect the will of the American people, if so how do you justify continuing the war when 60% of the Americans want to end it?

How do they want to end it? A decisive victory or a retreat?

Was it wrong for the US to support Saddam Hussein during the coup where Saddam took power in 1979?

Let me research it and I'll get back to you.

Was it a mistake for US ambassador April Gilespie to tell Saddam Hussein that the US didn't care if he invaded Kuwait in 1989? Or was she engaging in the war on terror at that time?

Yes.

Was the US wrong to impose economic sanctions on Iraq during the 1990's and thus kill 500,000 Iraqi children? Or should the brown Muslims be wiped out? and is this effort to kill Iraqis inherent to the war on terror?

The U.N. imposed economic sanctions and Saddam did nothing to help his people. It was his corruptness that killed his people.

WTF is the brown Muslim comment about? I'm not a racist.

82Marine89  posted on  2005-12-03   11:21:09 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: 82Marine89 (#12)

well, thank-you for answering.

I'd say you're dysfunctional and sick.

Since 1980 about 1.2 million Iraqis have died directly due to US policy. If you want me to give you a brief accounting of that number I will. That country did not attack us. Instead, the US intervened into Iraqi affairs to install puppet named Saddam Hussein in power.

It is this type of wrong-headed aggression by the US that you support. Thus you and people like you are not only a horrible ugly blight on our country, but you also represent a grave danger to america in that forces will be arrayed against us aimed at destroying us completely because of citizens like you.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-03   11:30:54 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Red Jones (#13)

well, thank-you for answering.

I'd say you're dysfunctional and sick.

That's what my shrink said. Do you know him?

82Marine89  posted on  2005-12-03   11:57:13 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: 82Marine89 (#19)

That's what my shrink said. Do you know him?

pretty funny, but no I don't know your shrink.

perhaps rather than me telling you that you are 'dysfunctional and sick' it would be more accurate for me to say that you are more dysfunctional and sick than is normal. We're all dysfunctional and sick, that is true. But you Marine - you stand out on this score as a real achiever.

after all, you support the war, and yet there is no reason for this war.

Can you tell me please, where is an example of even one time when Iraqis insurgents or terrorists attacked us here in America? Because you said that one reason you support this war is because you think we should fight them over there rather than over here. But is there an example you can show us of even one time when some Iraqis attacked us over here?

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-03   12:05:13 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Red Jones (#22)

Can you tell me please, where is an example of even one time when Iraqis insurgents or terrorists attacked us here in America?

U.S. Embassies and military bases are American soil

Iran Hostage Crisis, November 4, 1979: After President Carter agreed to admit the Shah of Iran into the US, Iranian radicals seized the U.S. Embassy in Tehran and took 66 American diplomats hostage. Thirteen hostages were soon released, but the remaining 53 were held until their release on January 20, 1981.

Bombing of U.S. Embassy in Beirut, April 18, 1983: Sixty-three people, including the CIA’s Middle East director, were killed and 120 were injured in a 400-pound suicide truck-bomb attack on the U.S. Embassy in Beirut, Lebanon. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

Kidnapping of Embassy Official, March 16, 1984: The Islamic Jihad kidnapped and later murdered Political Officer William Buckley in Beirut, Lebanon. Other U.S. citizens not connected to the U.S. government were seized over a succeeding two- year period.

TWA Hijacking, June 14, 1985: A Trans-World Airlines flight was hijacked en route to Rome from Athens by two Lebanese Hizballah terrorists and forced to fly to Beirut. The eight crew members and 145 passengers were held for seventeen days, during which one American hostage, a U.S. Navy sailor, was murdered. After being flown twice to Algiers, the aircraft was returned to Beirut after Israel released 435 Lebanese and Palestinian prisoners.

Kidnapping of William Higgins, February 17, 1988: U.S. Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel W. Higgins was kidnapped and murdered by the Iranian-backed Hizballah group while serving with the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization (UNTSO) in southern Lebanon.

Attempted Iraqi Attacks on U.S. Posts, January 18-19, 1991: Iraqi agents planted bombs at the U.S. Ambassador to Indonesia’s home residence and at the USIS library in Manila.

World Trade Center Bombing, February 26, 1993: The World Trade Center in New York City was badly damaged when a car bomb planted by Islamic terrorists exploded in an underground garage. The bomb left 6 people dead and 1,000 injured. The men carrying out the attack were followers of Umar Abd al-Rahman, an Egyptian cleric who preached in the New York City area.

Attempted Assassination of President Bush by Iraqi Agents, April 14, 1993: The Iraqi intelligence service attempted to assassinate former U.S. President George Bush during a visit to Kuwait. In retaliation, the U.S. launched a cruise missile attack 2 months later on the Iraqi capital Baghdad.

Khobar Towers Bombing, June 25, 1996: A fuel truck carrying a bomb exploded outside the US military's Khobar Towers housing facility in Dhahran, killing 19 U.S. military personnel and wounding 515 persons, including 240 U.S. personnel. Several groups claimed responsibility for the attack.

Empire State Building Sniper Attack, February 23, 1997: A Palestinian gunman opened fire on tourists at an observation deck atop the Empire State Building in New York City, killing a Danish national and wounding visitors from the United States, Argentina, Switzerland, and France before turning the gun on himself. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."

U.S. Embassy Bombings in East Africa, August 7, 1998: A bomb exploded at the rear entrance of the U.S. Embassy in Nairobi, Kenya, killing 12 U.S. citizens, 32 Foreign Service Nationals (FSNs), and 247 Kenyan citizens. Approximately 5,000 Kenyans, 6 U.S. citizens, and 13 FSNs were injured. The U.S. Embassy building sustained extensive structural damage. Almost simultaneously, a bomb detonated outside the U.S. Embassy in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, killing 7 FSNs and 3 Tanzanian citizens, and injuring 1 U.S. citizen and 76 Tanzanians. The explosion caused major structural damage to the U.S. Embassy facility. The U.S. Government held Usama Bin Laden responsible.

Attack on U.S.S. Cole, October 12, 2000: In Aden, Yemen, a small dingy carrying explosives rammed the destroyer U.S.S. Cole, killing 17 sailors and injuring 39 others. Supporters of Usama Bin Laden were suspected.

Terrorist Attacks on U.S. Homeland, September 11, 2001: Two hijacked airliners crashed into the twin towers of the World Trade Center. Soon thereafter, the Pentagon was struck by a third hijacked plane. A fourth hijacked plane, suspected to be bound for a high-profile target in Washington, crashed into a field in southern Pennsylvania. The attacks killed 3,025 U.S. citizens and other nationals. President Bush and Cabinet officials indicated that Usama Bin Laden was the prime suspect and that they considered the United States in a state of war with international terrorism. In the aftermath of the attacks, the United States formed the Global Coalition Against Terrorism.

82Marine89  posted on  2005-12-03   12:26:15 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: 82Marine89 (#24)

the information you provided is unconvincing. There have been some criminal attacks over a long period of time, but as to who it is that is behind these attacks is very much in question.

The Iraqis have not attacked the US, yet the US has attacked Iraq.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-03   12:32:29 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Red Jones (#27)

the information you provided is unconvincing. There have been some criminal attacks over a long period of time, but as to who it is that is behind these attacks is very much in question.

The Iraqis have not attacked the US, yet the US has attacked Iraq.

Unconvincing? That is factual data. They are not criminal attacks, they are terrorist attacks and the people behind them are Muslim fundamentalists.

Again, why have you become a shill for AKA Stone?

82Marine89  posted on  2005-12-03   12:41:27 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: 82Marine89 (#29)

In 1993 an undercover FBI agent set a bomb that destroyed a parking structure at World Trade Center in NYC and killed at least 6 people. This was terrorism. This was done by an undercover FBI agent at the instruction of the US government. These are facts according to the sworn testimony of the US citizen in US court who actually did the terrorist act.

This calls into question all of the 'facts' you mentioned as we just don't know who is behind the terrorism.

It is absurd to think that the muslim world is at war with us. There have been some incidents. This is not a war of 'them' against 'us'.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-03   12:45:38 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Red Jones (#30)

Provide a link to that fairy tale.

82Marine89  posted on  2005-12-03   12:47:05 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 31.

#33. To: 82Marine89 (#31)

Provide a link to that fairy tale.

AP Worldstream

09-03-2003

Dateline: WASHINGTON The FBI missed opportunities to thwart the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center by failing to heed an informant's warnings, a new book says.

Emad Salem, an ex-Egyptian army major recruited by the FBI, infiltrated a group led by blind Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman as the conspirators planned the bombing.

But at a crucial point, Salem had a falling out with his FBI handlers and withdrew from the plot after agents told him he would have to testify in open court, according to the book, "1000 Years for Revenge: International Terrorism and the FBI: The Untold Story."

"Don't call me when the bombs go off," Salem is quoted as telling the FBI, according to author Peter Lance, a former ABC television correspondent.

The Feb. 26, 1993, explosion in the trade center's underground garage killed six people, injured more than 1,000 others and caused half a billion dollars in damage.

After the bombing, Salem told the FBI the blast could have been prevented if agents had listened to his advice and placed two of the conspirators under surveillance, according to Lance's book.

The book also said law enforcement agencies overlooked evidence in 47 boxes seized three years before the bombing that would have alerted investigators to the terrorist threat Abdel-Rahman posed. The evidence included a bomb-making formula and threats by the sheik in Arabic writing that were not translated until after the blast. The boxes were seized in the murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane.

FBI officials had not read the book and could not immediately comment.

Copyright 2003, AP News All Rights Reserved

Jethro Tull  posted on  2005-12-03 12:54:07 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: 82Marine89 (#31)

I'm not going to provide a link Marine. I will only cite that it is history. I first read it from a New York Times article. But it is also published in a book about the incident. The hard cold facts are that in US courts testimony occurred by a US citizen that he himself did the terrorism of 1993 at the WTC at the instruction of the FBI. This testimony was used to convict the Egyptians who were members of the group that pulled off that criminal act.

This is history. and it proves that we simply cannot trust the US government to tell us who committed this criminal act or that criminal act because the US government has itself used its own undercover agents among 'muslim' organizations for the purpose of engendering terrorist acts that are then used to justify a broad war against the Iraqis.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-03 12:59:43 ET  [Locked]   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 31.

TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest


[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help]