4um: Voice of the White House (on the rapture)

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Title: Voice of the White House (on the rapture)
Source: TBR news
URL Source: http://www.tbrnews.org/Archives/a2027.htm
Published: Dec 11, 2005
Author: Voice of the WH
Post Date: 2005-12-13 19:10:16 by Zipporah
Keywords: rapture), Voice, White
Views: 167
Comments: 11

December 11, 2005: “Two days ago, a fanatical Bush supporter from amongst the staff at the Monkey Palace, cornered me in the cafeteria with the fiercely joyful news that she was leaving the White House. I assumed that, like a growing number of disillusioned staff persons, she was getting better employment elsewhere, such as the Humane Society’s Kitten-Gassing commando or our very own District Sanitation Department, Minority Free Lunch Division, but no, she advised me that Rapture was coming soon and she and her entire family were “going to see Jesus” in person! There used to be quite a bit of that sort of blather around here but of late it is getting very muted. Since I had no historical background in the subject, I looked it up and have come to some very specific and clear cut views on the subject. I will share these with you now although there is always the possibility that I might be wrong and truly Be Left Behind.

‘The Rapture’ is a term most commonly used to describe an event in certain systems of Christian eschatology whereby “all true Christians are taken from Earth by God into Heaven.” Although almost all forms of Christianity believe that those who are "saved" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, the term "rapture" is usually applied specifically to those theories saying that “Christians alive before the end of the world will be taken into heaven,” and there will be an intermediate time frame where non-Christians will be still left on earth before “Christ arrives to set up his earthly kingdom.”

The word "Rapture" is not found in the Bible. There is also no single word used by the biblical authors to describe the prophetic factors which comprise the doctrine. Roman Catholics and nearly all of the main-line Protestants do not accept the concept of a rapture in which some are "taken up into Heaven" before the end of the world; this idea did not exist in the teachings of any Christians whatsoever until the late18th, and early 19^th centuries, so it cannot be said to belong to Apostolic tradition.

The legend of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, until after the year 1830. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned a syllable about it. Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it only ceased being taught (for some unknown reason) at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830 But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19^th and early 20^th century. This does not, in and of itself prove conclusively that the story is wrong, but it does mean that thousands of eminent scholars and theologians who lived over a span of seventeen centuries (including some of the most astute of the religious scholars of the early Christian and, later of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered as grossly incompetent for not having either knowledge or understanding of a teaching viewed by fringe religious groups as so central to their beliefs. This lapse of seventeen centuries, when no one mentioned anything about it, is certainly a serious obstacle to its reliability or its acceptance by the less credulous.

One of the strongest, and less appetizing, proponents of this theory was one Charles Fox Parham. Charles Parham was born in 1873, became a preacher by age 14/15, Charles Parham was a racist, becoming a full-fledged member of the KKK by 1910. Parham was also arrested for “repeated and carnal sexual indiscretions” with young boys. Parham was the first Pentecostal preacher to pray over handkerchiefs and mail them to those who desired his ministrations . Naturally, Parham charged money for these energized handkerchiefs.

In 1908 Parham raised funds from among his deluded parishioners to travel to the Holy Land on an “archaeological expedition to search for the lost ark of the covenant.” He claimed to the press that he had information about its location and that his finding the ark would fit into the end times biblical scheme. By December he announced that he had sufficient funds and he traveled to New York allegedly to begin his journey to Jerusalem. He never purchased a ticket to the Middle East and returned home dejectedly in January, claiming he was robbed after arriving in New York. His parishioners had been robbed somewhat earlier.

Naturally, I have no intention of communicating my findings on this hilarious subject to my fellow worker. Seeing the on-going ruination of the God-intoxicated

George W. (‘Fuck-the-Constitution”) Bush before her very eyes is more than enough for such a dim-wit to have to deal with. We ought not to dishonor the dead.”

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#1. To: christine (#0)

ping!

Be loyal to your country always, and to the government only when it deserves it. ~Mark Twain

robin posted on 2005-12-13 19:19:55 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

#2. To: A K A Stone (#0)

FYI

Click to see: Making a difference in Iraq

Zipporah posted on 2005-12-13 19:23:27 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

#3. To: robin, Zipporah (#1)

Naturally, I have no intention of communicating my findings on this hilarious subject to my fellow worker. Seeing the on-going ruination of the God-intoxicated George W. (‘Fuck-the-Constitution”) Bush before her very eyes is more than enough for such a dim-wit to have to deal with.

now that is funny. interesting rapture origin history too. thanks for the ping, robin.

Keep the dialogue and discourse free and open. And let the truth fall where it may.

christine posted on 2005-12-13 20:31:57 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

#4. To: Zipporah (#2)

Your so thoughtful to ping me. Thanks. I don't believe in a pre-trib rapture. I believe that Matthew Chapter 24 makes that pretty clear. I think that some people use the scriptures concerning the second coming and try to make it into two events. If this were the case in Matthew 24 Jesus wouldn't have warned his followers to pray that it doesn't happen in the winter. There are other reasons but I'm not going to point them all out.

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone posted on 2005-12-13 23:46:46 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

#5. To: Zipporah, christine, robin, *Bereans* (#0)

The word "Rapture" is not found in the Bible. There is also no single word used by the biblical authors to describe the prophetic factors which comprise the doctrine. Roman Catholics and nearly all of the main-line Protestants do not accept the concept of a rapture in which some are "taken up into Heaven" before the end of the world; this idea did not exist in the teachings of any Christians whatsoever until the late18th, and early 19th centuries, so it cannot be said to belong to Apostolic tradition.
The legend of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, until after the year 1830.

Entirely false and sadly misinformed.

The "Rapture" is in the Bible, albeit not by that name (which is why the uninformed don't find it - but ostensible Christians and students of the Bible ought to know better). It was most specifically taught by Paul to the Corinthians and Thessalonians:

1Co 15:51-52 (NASB) Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

1Th 4:16-17 (NASB) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught⁷²⁶ up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Strong's G726

±Á À±¶É
harpazo
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).

Note that the phrase "caught⁷²⁶ up" in the original Greek is the word ± ÁÀ±¶É or harpazo. When the Greek Septuagint was translated into Latin (to become the Vulgate translation) the word ±ÁÀ±¶É or harpazo was translated into Latin as the verb rapio, meaning "caught up," or the noun raptura, which then became the Anglicanized term "rapture" when these passages were discussed.

So, no the word "rapture" does not appear exactly as such in any bible. It is the Anglicanized term for what Paul called the ±ÁÀ± ¶É or harpazo - the "catching up". So if one researches teachings on " catching up" or 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, one finds numerous references from the time of Paul's Epistle to the Thessalonians, forward. Below are a sampling of the ante-Nicene Church Fathers writings on "the Rapture" in the two centuries immediately following Paul's epistles.

Irenaeus A.D. 140-202
Tertulian A.D. 150-220
Hippolytus A.D. 160-240
Origen A.D. 185-254
Methodius A.D. 250-311

Note the following is not intended to be exhaustive and are only excerpts from their full writings. The point being that "The Rapture" was in fact taught from the beginning. The "Rapture" is scriptural and not a new doctrine.

Irenaeus A.D. 140-202

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV. Chap. XXII. - Christ Did Not Come for the Sake of the Men of One Age Only, but for All Who, Living Righteously and Piously, Had Believed upon Him; and for Those, Too, Who Shall Believe.

Wherefore He shall, at His second coming, first rouse from their sleep all persons of this description, and shall raise them up, as well as the rest who shall be judged, and give them a place in His kingdom.

Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book V. Chap. XXIX. - All Things Have Been Created for the Service of Man. The Deceits, Wickedness, and Apostate Power of Antichrist. This Was Prefigured at the Deluge, as Afterwards by the Persecution of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego

And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."

Tertulian A.D. 150-220

The Writings of Tertullian Part First - Apologetic IX. A Treatise on the Soul. Chap. LV. - The Christian Idea of the Position of Hades; the Blessedness of Paradise Immediately After Death. The Privilege of the Martyrs.

How, indeed, shall the soul mount up to heaven, where Christ is already sitting at the Father's right hand, when as yet the archangel's trumpet has not been heard by the command of God, (1Co_15:52 and 1Th_4:16) - when as yet those whom the coming of the Lord is to find on the earth, have not been caught up into the air to meet Him at His coming, (1Th_4:17) in company with the dead in Christ, who shall be the first to arise? (1Th_4:16)

The Writings of Tertullian Part Second - Anti-Marcion II. The Five Books Against Marcion. Book III. Chap. XXIV. - Christ's Millennial and Heavenly Glory in Company with His Saints.

For we shall, according to the apostle, be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord (even the Son of man, who shall come in the clouds, according to Daniel (Dan_7:13)) and so shall we ever be with the Lord, (1Th_4:17) so long as He remains both on the earth and in heaven, ...

The Writings of Tertullian Part Second - Anti-Marcion II. The Five Books Against Marcion. Book V. Chap. XV. - The First Epistle to the Thessalonians. The Shorter Epistles Pungent in Sense and Very Valuable. St. Paul Upbraids the Jews for the Death First of Their Prophets and Then of Christ. This a Presumption that Both Christ and the Prophets Pertained to the Same God. The Law of Nature, Which Is in Fact the Creator's Discipline, and the Gospel of Christ Both Enjoin Chastity. The Resurrection Provided for in the Old Testament by Christ. Man's Compound Nature.

He says that those who "remain unto the coming of Christ," along with "the dead in Christ, shall rise first," being "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1Th_4:15-17) I find it was in their foresight of all this, that the heavenly intelligences gazed with admiration on "the Jerusalem which is above," (Gal_4:26) and by the mouth of Isaiah said long ago: "Who are these that fly as clouds, and as doves with their young ones, unto me?" (Isa_60:8) Now, as Christ has prepared for us this ascension into heaven, He must be the Christ of whom Amos356 spoke: "It is He who builds His ascent up to the heavens," (Amo_9:6) even for Himself and His people.

The Writings of Tertullian Part Second - Anti-Marcion II. The Five Books Against Marcion. Book V. Chap. XX. - The Epistle to the Philippians. The Variances Amongst the Preachers of Christ No Argument that There Was More than One Only Christ. St. Paul's Phrases - Form of a Servant, Likeness, and Fashion of a Man - No Sanction of Docetism. No Antithesis (Such as Marcion Alleged) in the God of Judaism and the God of the Gospel Deducible from Certain Contrasts Mentioned in This Epistle. A Parallel with a Passage in Genesis. The Resurrection of the Body, and the Change Thereof.

If, again, Christ in His advent from heaven "shall change the body of our humiliation, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body," (Phi_3:21)446 it follows that this body of ours shall rise again, which is now in a state of humiliation in its sufferings and according to the law of mortality drops into the ground. But how shall it be changed, if it shall have no real existence? If, however, this is only said of those who shall be found in the flesh (1Co_15:51-52) at the advent of God, and who shall have to be changed,"447 what shall they do who will rise first? They will have no substance from which to undergo a change. But he says (elsewhere), "We shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord (in the air)." (1Th_4:16-17) Then, if we are to be caught up alone with them, surely we shall likewise be changed together with them.

The Writings of Tertullian Part Second - Anti-Marcion VI. On the Resurrection of the Flesh. Chap. XXIV. - Other Passages Quoted from St. Paul, Which Categorically Assert the Resurrection of the Flesh at the Final Judgment.

He teaches them that they must "not sorrow concerning them that are asleep," and at the same time explains to them the times of the resurrection, saying, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus shall God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of our Lord, shall not prevent them that are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord." (1Th_4:13-17) What archangel's voice, (I wonder), what trump of God is now heard, except it be, forsooth, in the entertainments of the heretics? For, allowing that the word of the gospel may be called "the trump of God," since it was still calling men, yet they must at that time either be dead as to the body, that they may be able to rise again; and then how are they alive? Or else caught up into the clouds; and how then are they here? "Most miserable," no doubt, as the apostle declared them, are they "who in this life only" shall be found to have hope: (1Co_15:19) they will have to be excluded while they are with premature haste seizing that which is promised after this life; erring concerning the truth, no less than Phygellus and Hermogenes. (2Ti_1:15) Hence it is that the Holy Ghost, in His greatness, foreseeing clearly all such interpretations as these, suggests (to the apostle), in this very epistle of his to the Thessalonians, as follows: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, there is no necessity for my writing unto you. For ye yourselves know perfectly, that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, 56;Peace,' and 56;All things are safe,' then sudden destruction shall come upon them." (1Th_5:1-3) Again, in the second epistle he addresses them with even greater earnestness: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, " that is, the word of false prophets, "or by letter," that is, the letter of false apostles, "as if from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come, unless indeed there first come a falling away," he means indeed of this present empire, "and that man of sin be revealed," that is to say, Antichrist, "the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or religion; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, affirming that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was with you, I used to tell you these things? And now ye know what detaineth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." (2Th_2:1-7) What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish." (2Th_2:8-10)

The Writings of Tertullian Part Second - Anti-Marcion VI. On the Resurrection of the Flesh. Chap. XLI. - The Dissolution of Our Tabernacle Consistent with the Resurrection of Our Bodies.

Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death,78 which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1Th_4:15-17)

Origen A.D. 185-254

Origen De Principiis. Book II. Chap. XI. - On Counter Promises.

... Then, if that atmosphere which is between heaven and earth is not devoid of inhabitants, and those of a rational kind, as the apostle says, "Wherein in times past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now worketh in the children of disobedience."67 And again he says, "We shall be caught up in the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1Th_4:17) ...
6. We are therefore to suppose that the saints will remain there until they recognise the twofold mode of government in those things which are performed in the air....
... I think, therefore, that all the saints who depart from this life will remain in some place situated on the earth, which holy Scripture calls paradise, as in some place of instruction, and, so to speak, class-room or school of souls, in which they are to be instructed regarding all the things which they had seen on earth, and are to receive also some information respecting things that are to follow in the future, as even when in this life they had obtained in some degree indications of future events, although "through a glass darkly," all of which are revealed more clearly and distinctly to the saints in their proper time and place.

Origen Against Celsus. Book V. Chap. XVII.

Then, in the next place, having either himself misunderstood the sacred Scriptures, or those (interpreters) by whom they were not understood, he proceeds to assert that "it is said by us that there will remain at the time of the visitation which is to come upon the world by the fire of purification, not only those who are then alive, but also those who are long ago dead;" not observing that it is with a secret kind of wisdom that it was said by the apostle of Jesus: "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (cf. 1Co_15:51, 1Co_15:51) Now he ought to have noticed what was the meaning of him who uttered these words, as being one who was by no means dead, who made a distinction between himself and those like him and the dead, and who said afterwards, "The dead shall be raised incorruptible," and "we shall be changed." And as a proof that such was the apostle's meaning in writing those words which I have quoted from the first Epistle to the Corinthians, I will quote also from the first to the Thessalonians, in which Paul, as one who is alive and awake, and different from those who are asleep, speaks as follows: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who are asleep; for the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God." (cf. 1Th_4:15, 1Th_4:16) Then, again, after this, knowing that there were others dead in Christ besides himself and such as he, he subjoins the words, "The dead in Christ shall rise first; then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." (cf. 1Th_4:16, 1Th_4:17)

Hippolytus A.D. 160-240

The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II. - Dogmatical and Historical. Treatise on Christ and Antichrist.

66. Concerning the resurrection of the righteous, Paul also speaks thus in writing to the Thessalonians: "We would not have you to be ignorant concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive (and) remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice and trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive (and) remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1Th_4:12)

Methodius A.D. 250-311

Methodius The Banquet of the Ten Virgins; or, Concerning Chastity. Discourse VI. - Agathe. Chap. IV. - What the Oil in the Lamps Means.

For it is to be observed that the word of God says, that after the cry all the virgins arose, that is, that the dead shall be raised after the voice which comes from heaven, as also Paul intimates, (1Th_4:16) that "the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;" that is the tabernacles,82 for they died, being put off by their souls. "Then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them," meaning our souls.83 For we truly who are alive are the souls which, with the bodies, having put them on again, shall go to meet Him in the clouds, bearing our lamps trimmed, not with anything alien and worldly, but like stars radiating the light of prudence and continence, full of ethereal splendour.

Methodius From the Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. II. A Synopsis of Some Apostolic Words from the Same Discourse.

VII. Now the passage, "The dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive," St. Methodius thus explains: Those are our bodies; for the souls are we ourselves, who, rising, resume that which is dead from the earth; so that being caught up with them to meet the Lord, we may gloriously celebrate the splendid festival of the resurrection, because we have received our everlasting tabernacles, which shall no longer die nor be dissolved.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind posted on 2005-12-14 0:04:55 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

#6. To: Starwind (#5)

at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
1Th 4:16-17 (NASB) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught726 up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Key word, last trump. Look in revelation for the last trumpet. It's judgement day. The end.

For the lord himself will descend from heaven.......

To believe in a pretrib rapture you would have to believe in a second and a third coming.

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone posted on 2005-12-14 0:09:38 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

#7. To: A K A Stone (#4)

The short version of what I was always taught. Christ came once to die for sins and to be resurrected (sic). Christ will come again prior to the Tribulation in the rapture to take away His church. Christ will come again at the end of the period of Tribulation (7 years) to establish a 1000 year reign, after which the Devil will be loosed for an unspecified time after which Christ will come again and destroy the Devil at Armagedden.

What I have come to know. Outside of the first statement regarding Christ coming once for His Passion, Christ is returning three separate times. The Word of God knows no such thing. Christendom has generally held one of two things: that either the 1000 years is a symbol for a perfect amount of time the devil is prevented from attempting to destroy the church until he is loosed for a period of great tribulation after which Christ returns and the church is raptured, or that at some point a great tribulation will occur after which Christ raptures the church and establishes a literal 1000 year reign after which the devil is destroyed at Armagedden. My limited understanding is the former is mostly the Eastern view and the latter is mostly a Roman one. I think any reading of the Church Fathers will lead one to conclude one of these two thoughts. The Eastern Church still guards the book of Revelation with much caution, mystery and if I may so bold as to say apprehension because it has been a contested book over the centuries. It is the only book in the Bible not read in the Orthodox Church. During services (Liturgies, Vespers, etc) all the books of the Bible are chanted (read) out of over a period of time. Revelation is not read because of what I mention above. Revelation speaks to things present, things past and yet to come. It is symbolic and literal. Sometimes it is all five at the same time. To say we have an exact understanding of it I think borders on the arrogant.

I think the pre-tribulation rapture belief has led to unfortunate consequences. We are seeing people (sometimes very powerful ones) who are actively working to bring about the events which they think will lead to the rapture. And the ends justify the means. No cost to high, no sacrifice to great. Whatever lives must be lost and whatever unions must be made to make this happen. The other consequence that I have seen among friends, family members and through general observations, is an apathy concerning current events be they religious, political, etc. It can be best summed up: these things are happening to bring about the rapture, the end times, who am I to question God and who I am to stand in the way of what is supposed to happen according to what I have been taught my whole life?

scooter posted on 2005-12-14 0:36:32 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

#8. To: scooter, Starwind, A K A Stone (#7)

I think the pre-tribulation rapture belief has led to unfortunate consequences. We are seeing people (sometimes very powerful ones) who are actively working to bring about the events which they think will lead to the rapture. And the ends justify the means. No cost to high, no sacrifice to great. Whatever lives must be lost and whatever unions must be made to make this happen. The other consequence that I have seen among friends, family members and through general observations, is an apathy concerning current events be they religious, political, etc. It can be best summed up: these things are happening to bring about the rapture, the end times, who am I to question God and who I am to stand in the way of what is supposed to happen according to what I have been taught my whole life?

Good analysis, and IMO, there is nothing scriptural about their response. There are plenty of verses about doing good and seeking peace. "Only the Father knows the hour" verse seems to have become "Only the pre-tribs know the hour" and they actually think God wants them to facilitate their intrepretation of the end times. Very dangerous thinking that is not found anywhere in the Scriptures.

I posted this on another thread last week:

Not all of Protestant Christianity is absorbed in the rapture. The Presbyterians are boycotting Israeli goods and see the end times differently.

This is a very sensible approach to eschatology (it's more like what I was taught in my Baptist Sunday School):

To those obsessed with trying to work out a timetable for Christ's return, Presbyterians say, "Only God knows, but God has given us important work to do in the meantime."

The Lutherans also interpret the rapture differently.

The Methodists also do not interpret the rapture in the recently popularized way.

And of course Catholics and Episcopalians do not believe in the rapture.

I've noticed those who teach a second baptism for talking in tongues, are very emotional kinds of evangelical churches. And, they also tend to be very absorbed in the rapture and the end times in general. Which, IMO, is an unhealthy indicator.

Be loyal to your country always, and to the government only when it deserves it. ~Mark Twain

robin posted on 2005-12-14 11:22:32 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

#9. To: robin (#8)

Yes, it is generally best to avoid labels and stick to facts.

And sadly, most "denominations" and "doctrinal pureists" have factionalized along ideological lines ranging from political to theological, and most of them carry a lot of baggage into what should be predominantly biblical discussions.

It's one thing to criticize a politician's actions or viewpoint and hold them to a biblical standard. But it's quite another matter altogether to use that same politician's heresy as biblical standard.

There are all too few Bereans any more.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind posted on 2005-12-14 12:27:47 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

#10. To: Starwind (#5)

The point probably is.. that how you see it.. the 'rapture' and what the orthodox interpretation has been for almost 2000 years is different in that you see it as the catching up of Christians and then that is the beginning of the reign of Christ on earth.. How your believe and the orthodox belief differs is that yes "and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive (and) remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord.".. but that is where it parts company.. it is a matter of order.. Acts 24:15 (NKJV) "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Now consider these verses:

Matthew 16:27-28 (NKJV) "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. 28 "Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."

Who was He speaking to? The Lord was speaking to His disciples.. not to a future generation but to "some standing here who shall not taste death".. meaning that those He was with would see Christ coming in His kingdom.. not some far in the future event but His kingdom would come with his resurrection. What IS the kingdom?? What does the scripture say about the Kingdom? *there are many describing the kingdom such as the kingdom of God is like.. etc but the following are selected for their relevance as to what the kingdom is, when and where it can be found.

Mt 3:2 - Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Mr 14:25 - "Truly I say to you, I will never again drink of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God."

Lu 17:21 - "the kingdom of God is within you." Not a physical kingdom but a spiritual kingdom.

Lu 9:27 - "But I say to you truthfully, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God."

Lu 17:20 - Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed;

Joh 3:3 - Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." How can the kingdom be on earth with those born again.. Christians have LEFT this earth?

Joh 18:36 - Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm." SO Jesus is made a liar then? If the kingdom is to be of THIS earth then those who believe the kingdom will be on this earth are in fact saying the Lord lied

Ro 14:17 - for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Click to see: Making a difference in Iraq

Zipporah posted on 2005-12-14 21:59:19 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

#11. To: A K A Stone (#4)

Now on Matt 24.. Jesus was not speaking of the end IMO but rather what was prophesized in Daniel.. the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Click to see: Making a difference in Iraq

Zipporah posted on 2005-12-14 22:00:52 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

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