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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Odessa: Ukraine’s Waco
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/05/04/odessa-ukraines-waco/
Published: May 5, 2014
Author: Justin Raimondo
Post Date: 2014-05-05 07:20:12 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 828
Comments: 51

Kiev fascists show their faces

The murder of at least 38 people in the city of Odessa in the midst of Kiev’s "anti-terrorist" offensive last Friday revealed the true face of the fascist regime that has seized power in Kiev – and the Western media is doing everything it can to cover up the truth.

Most "mainstream" accounts of what happened there are filled with ambiguity: it’s "not clear" who’s responsible, they say. Everybody was supposedly throwing Molotov cocktails and so who’s to say who started which conflagration? And yet the truth is getting out there. The Washington Post reported on Saturday that "police said at least 31 people were dead after pro-Kiev demonstrators hurled Molotov cocktails into a building where a pro-Russia contingent was holding out." The piece cites tweets from Howard Amos, a Guardian reporter on the scene, noting that the fire broke out on the main floor of the Trade Union building, where a pro-Kiev crowd had gathered and was storming the building – and where, as USA Today noted, "Witnesses and journalists reported that as the building burned with people inside, a crowd shouted, ‘Glory to Ukraine!” and ‘Death to enemies!’"

The USA Today headline read: "Fire Kills 31 in Odessa." But did the fire kill them – or was it the people who set the fire? And let’s go back to Howard Amos’ tweets to find out exactly who is fighting on the front lines on the pro-Kiev side: why it’s Right Sector! They’re leading the crowd, just as they did on Friday.

Right Sector is the violent neo-Nazi group that served as the Kiev coup leaders’ shock troops as they took over Ukraine’s capital city and drove Yanukovich and his supporters out. Their Fuehrer, Dymtro Yorash, is a fascist ideologue who recently announced he was moving the group’s headquarters to east Ukraine – the scene of recent fighting between pro-coup and pro-Russian factions.

By all accounts, the local police – under Kiev’s command – did nothing as the pro-Kiev crowd danced in the streets while the building burned. It took the fire department an hour to get to the scene.

Imagine if the roles had been reversed, with the pro-Russians outside the building and the pro-Kiev "activists" inside. John Kerry would be apoplectic with rage, threatening Russia with military force. Nicholas Kristof would be demanding the bombing of Moscow, and the neocons would be comparing it to China’s Tiananmen Square massacre.

Instead, what we hear from these folks is … nothing. Silence. Evasion. Ambiguity. Anything but the truth.

This is Kiev’s Waco – and a perfect analogy it is, indeed. Here we have a group of people – pro-Russian Ukrainians – who have been so demonized in the Western media that this mass murder is being framed as if the victims deserved it. They were executed by government officials in Kiev – imagine the Ukrainian version of Janet Reno – acting in concert with US officials in Washington, who no doubt gave the green light to the Ukrainian "anti-terrorist" operation in the first place. Like the Waco massacre, the Odessa mass murder was a political act designed to demonstrate the raw power of a State – and to serve as a warning to those who would defy its power.

On Twitter, former Swedish Prime Minister Carl Bildt, a fervent supporter of the Kiev coup, cries crocodile tears for Odessa, averring that the perpetrators must be "brought to justice." Yet the perpetrators are the very government he and his NATO-crat friends have been telling us is the rebirth of "democracy" and "European values" in Ukraine. And, what’s more – he knows it. Meanwhile, the clueless Kiev "activists" being subsidized with American tax dollars posted to YouTube an utterly disgusting and almost unwatchable video of the incinerated bodies in Odessa under the headline: "Russian Terrorists Burnt Alive." The video was posted under an account called "EuromaidanPR." This is "public relations" in Ukraine – oh but it’s the Russians (or Russian-speaking Ukrainians, to be precise) who are the "terrorists."

As the European news media isn’t holding anything back in their reporting of the Odessa slaughter, Bildt perhaps feels obligated to address it. Our own officials are less forthcoming: the response of the US State Department is that force used in the Ukrainian "anti-terrorist" operation was "proportionate and reasonable" – even as the Odessa death toll climbs.

This is an absolute outrage. Usually Washington’s propaganda is more nuanced: even when they’re defending the most repressive regimes on earth (Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Ethiopia, Bahrain, etc.) there’s an attempt to balance it out with "constructive" criticism. Not here: instead we are treated to the ridiculously obscene notion that burning down a building full of people is a "proportionate" response to a demand for … regional autonomy!

What’s wrong with these people? Is it stupidity – or something a bit more calculated?

The first phase of the US-bought-and-paid-for regime change in Ukraine involved the exercise of "soft power" – the mobilization of compliant local "activists" who would take the pro-EU anti-Russian cause to the streets. Millions were pumped into the Ukrainian opposition under the guise of "democracy promotion" – and when enough people were out in the streets the next phase, the militarization of the campaign, began.

That’s when Right Sector jumped into the fray, leading the charge against government buildings and breaking the truce mediated by the European Union that would’ve kept the elected government in power in return for reining in presidential authority. State Department spokeswoman Victoria Nuland wasn’t cursing out the Europeans for no good reason: they were getting in the way of Uncle Sam’s plans, which had yet to fully unfold.

First, "democracy promotion," then – terror.

The burning of the Trade Union building in Odessa was meant to send the east Ukrainians – and, standing behind them, the Russians – a message: we mean business. And it isn’t only the authorities in Kiev issuing this warning. Because standing behind them is the United States of America: there’s a reason why CIA chief John Brennan allowed himself to be located in Kiev just prior to the Odessa massacre.

No matter what contortions the Western media engages in to spin Odessa as a morally ambiguous "tragedy," the facts are coming out and they point to one inescapable conclusion: this was mass murder for which the Kiev coup leaders and their American puppet-masters are directly responsible. In short, this is a war crime.

And I would argue it is a new type of war crime, which, on one level, the perpetrators deny, and yet on another level they proudly proclaim their guilt to the skies. Why else is "EuromaidenPR" posting gruesome videos of charred bodies on YouTube? Why is the US State Department declaring the bloody Ukrainian "anti- terrorist" operation is "proportionate"?

In the beginning, I thought this whole Ukrainian regime change effort was just sheer stupidity on the part our clueless leaders in Washington, who had no idea what they were getting into or what dark forces they were unleashing. Over time, however, as the crisis escalated, and we actually had the State Department defending Svoboda – a major factor in the "interim" government – against fully justified charges that it is fascist, I began to wonder. Why would the US government act as a lawyer for a party that traces its ideological lineage back to Stepan Bandera, the WWII Nazi collaborator whose "insurgent army" slaughtered 6,000 Jews in Lvov? Why would they go out of their way to characterize the party as having "moderated" its views?

It’s always a mistake to underestimate Washington’s capacity for evil. In retrospect, it’s clear they always knew what and who they were unleashing. It’s not ignorance of the historically specific and – to most Americans – unimaginably virulent hatred given free rein by our machinations in Ukraine. Washington knows perfectly well what they’re doing – and they’re doing it anyway.

One final point: I’ve noted before that the Russian "invasion" of Crimea was bloodless: no casualties, no deaths, no significant damage to property. If this was an "invasion," then we’re looking at a new kind of "warfare" entirely. Now look at Kiev’s invasion of east Ukraine, which they are calling an "anti- terrorist" campaign: I don’t think anyone has totaled the casualty count quite yet, but surely it is in the hundreds by now.

And the perpetrators of the violence are mostly supporters of the Kiev coup. Of the actual military personnel sent into restive regions, a good half have gone over to the other side or otherwise dropped out of the fight. The real fighters on behalf of the regime are mobs organized by Right Sector, which has in fact become a semiofficial arm of the Ukrainian "self-defense" forces, kind of like our National Guard. The Rada – the Ukrainian parliament – ratified Right Sector fuehrer Yorash as the deputy chief of the National Security Council by majority vote, but he was vetoed by the executive branch. It wouldn’t have looked good. Yet anyone who doubts Yorash got the job anyway, at least unofficially, has only to look at videos of the confrontations in east Ukraine, and read the reportage coming out of there.

Phase three of Kiev’s terror campaign: attacks by Right Sector in Russia itself. Yes, and you can tell them you read it here first …

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#1. To: Ada (#0)

Right Sector is the violent neo-Nazi group that served as the Kiev coup leaders’ shock troops as they took over Ukraine’s capital city and drove Yanukovich and his supporters out. Their Fuehrer, Dymtro Yorash, is a fascist ideologue

Raimondo has his pants on backwards.

His history lessons seem to have gotten twisted around his slippery tongue.

Last time I looked, olde fascists Lenin/Stalin were around many long years afore Hitler was ever heard of.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-05   7:42:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Cynicom (#1)

Why are you defending these Nazis Cynicom? Are you buddies with Obama and his henchmen these days?

Are you too full of yourself to even do any basic research and find out the truth of all this, where these people (Red Sektor, Svoboda) actually DO idolize their Nazi forefathers who sided with the Nazi SS and fought on their side as the Ukrainian SS?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-05   10:23:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: FormerLurker (#2)

Are you too full of yourself to even do any basic research and find out the truth of all this,

Thats personal.

Keep it civil and I would be happen to enlighten you concerning geo/politics.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-05   11:26:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Cynicom (#3)

It's nothing personal Cyni, simply an observation.

You made up your mind long ago that this is all a game that Obama and Putin are playing for the sake of some geopolitical ambitions that both of them share.

That is basically a modified version of the fairy tale which the MSM is spewing across the US and Europe.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-05   12:20:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Cynicom (#3)

One other thing Cyni. My father fought the Nazis in WWII. I have a rather strong distaste for militarized groups who worship Nazis and who are actually the "security apparatus" of a government, especially when they are backed by MY taxes and my "representatives" in government.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-05   12:25:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: FormerLurker (#4)

That is basically a modified version of the fairy tale which the MSM is spewing across the US and Europe.

My contention, based on geo/politics and history, takes into account no consideration of what emanates from Moscow, Washington or the media.

Behind the curtain, it is in the interest of this country that Russia become stronger, regaining part or most of the olde Soviet Union.

This government/military has accepted that the US alone cannot forestall any ambitions of China. Russia with a huge land mass, few people, must recognize that two billion people next door cannot be ignored.

Recall China abstained at the UN from for or against Russia at outset of this affair. Perhaps in the near future, China might want to "reclaim" a huge portion of Northeast Russia, land that belonged to China and now populated with in excess of 20 million Chinese.

Remember the open mike, Obama and Medevev (sp), "I can do more for you after my reelection".

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-05   12:45:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Cynicom (#6)

Behind the curtain, it is in the interest of this country that Russia become stronger, regaining part or most of the olde Soviet Union.

Russia did not take any action to make this all happen. It was with US/EU/NATO meddling in the affairs of the Ukraine that this came to be.

If Russia wanted to they could take ALL of Ukraine in less than 2 days. They have not done so.

Russia's annexation of Crimea came AFTER that autonomous region held a referendum to secede from Ukraine. You must also know that Russia's Black Sea fleet is based there in Sevastopol, Crimea. Can you blame Russia for wanting to protect its naval fleet from wide eyed Nazis backed by NATO?

You are deluding yourself Cyni if you think this was a mutually decided turn of events. It is just another example of the PNAC/US/NATO/Rothschild desire for world domination.

Russia is surrounded by militarized NATO nations hell bent on "fighting Russians". Former Warsaw Pact nations such as Poland have bases right up to the Russian border. How would WE deal with Russian bases right on our border of Canada and/or Mexico. We are boxing Russia in and backing them into a corner. That is NOT the wisest thing to do IMHO considering they have ICBMs and submarine launched missiles which would rain down nuclear warheads across our continent.

The US promised Soviet President Gorbachev that NATO would not move an inch eastwards if the USSR would allow reunification of Germany. We have obviously broken that promise, many times over.

Russia has not invaded any foreign land since the breakup of the USSR. The US and NATO HAVE done so countless times, and have killed millions of civilians in so doing. WE are not the "good guys" here Cyni, and it is only in the minds of those who have fallen victim to the constant programming of the professional mind benders that this is some sort of geopolitical game being played by both sides here.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-05   13:01:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: FormerLurker (#7)

Behind the curtain, it is in the interest of this country that Russia become stronger, regaining part or most of the olde Soviet Union.

Is there any merit at all in the above quote????

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-05   13:13:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: FormerLurker (#7)

In 1952, I underwent my first initiation into the intelligence world via a briefing by NSA. Media, politics etc had nothing to do with it, just gut wrenching facts.

Our army was on the ground in Korea, Fighting Chinese that were killing grunts by the thousands, and here we were, laying plans to bomb the Soviets back into the dark ages.

The Chinese and Koreans were never mentioned. The olde axiom that what you see is not always real and what you hear is usually a lie.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-05   13:32:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Cynicom (#8)

Behind the curtain, it is in the interest of this country that Russia become stronger, regaining part or most of the olde Soviet Union.

I'd say that's a highly exaggerated statement. Russia already HAD it's Black Sea naval base in the Ukraine, and had friendly relations with the entire country in terms of travel, commerce, and finance.

NATO/US/EU tried to take that away from them. Russia's actions are not of expansion, but of self preservation. They are in fact acting in terms of their own national security and interests, and are NOT "reclaiming parts of the Soviet Union" as you insist.

To them this is not a game of Risk or geopolitics, it's a matter of self defense, unlike our own wars of choice against nations who have not attacked us.

In fact, it is Obama and company who fired the first shots, committing acts of war against Russia by imposing sanctions against that nation in response to our own meddling in their back yard.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-05   13:33:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Cynicom (#9)

The olde axiom that what you see is not always real and what you hear is usually a lie.

Call it what you will, the global one world government conspiracy, the NWO, etc., is very real. Read the PNAC docs for an idea of what they have in mind.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-05   13:35:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: FormerLurker (#11)

Call it what you will, the global one world government conspiracy, the NWO,

Nowhere have I ever written anything denying the NWO.

I am merely saying, Washington and Moscow are ON THE SAME PAGE IN THIS CRIMEA, UKRAINE AFFAIR.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-05   13:39:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Cynicom (#12) (Edited)

I am merely saying, Washington and Moscow are ON THE SAME PAGE IN THIS CRIMEA, UKRAINE AFFAIR.

You are flat out wrong Cyni, for all the reasons I mentioned above.

It's like saying the US would welcome a Chinese takeover of Mexico, and that it'd be part of our "big plan". Hey maybe the traitors we have in government WOULD welcome it, but being Putin is a nationalistic individual with strong loyalty to his country, and is not a tyrant as described by western propaganda, I see it as not only highly unlikely that he or the Russian Parliament would approve of such a plan, but totally devoid of any semblance of reality.

Do you truly believe that Russia wishes to see another Nazi government take hold on its border?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-05   13:51:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: FormerLurker (#13)

You are flat out wrong Cyni, for all the reasons I mentioned above.

If that premise is wrong, then the opposite must be right or true.

The US and Russia DO NOT WANT RUSSIA TO BECOME STRONGER, RATHER A WEAKER RUSSIA WOULD BE BEST.

China is NOT a player in this affair, yet we are building a defense line from the Aleutians to Darwin Australia for what reason?

Fence in Russia????

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-05   15:26:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Cynicom (#14)

The US and Russia DO NOT WANT RUSSIA TO BECOME STRONGER, RATHER A WEAKER RUSSIA WOULD BE BEST.

China is NOT a player in this affair, yet we are building a defense line from the Aleutians to Darwin Australia for what reason?

Fence in Russia????

RUSSIA does not WANT to become weaker. Russia wants to maintain and protect the land they DO already have, and do not want to be subjugated to western corporate oligarchs any more than they want to be subservient to native oligarchs.

WESTERN corporate and banking elite (in reality massive organized global crime syndicates) are the ones who wish to weaken and defeat Russia. It is THEY who wish to dominate the entire world, and Russia amongst several other nations such as India, Iran, and China do NOT want to be dominated by those or any other hostile entities.

China IS in fact signing oil and gas agreements with Russia, and are contemplating dealing in NON US financial instruments for trade. Such action would sink the US Petrol Dollar, which in turn would sink the US Economy. Perhaps THAT is the plan Cyni, the total and complete demise of the United States.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-05   16:01:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: FormerLurker (#15)

Perhaps it would be useful if you had a 4x3 world map on a wall so you could refer to it daily.

Relying on media for who did what to whom, when nobody was looking, is not a reliable barometer of what is in flux in this world. A student of history, with a mind that looks over the horizon, knows full well that the babble uttered by political figures, is totally for consumption by the masses.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-05   17:38:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Cynicom (#16)

There was a time when America and its leaders had virtues and ideals. Just because THIS nation has lost its moral bearings and is led by an unknown cabal of elitists who see the rest of us as livestock to be used as they see fit, doesn't mean the rest of the world has followed suit.

Russians have fought long and hard to achieve that which we once had, and they are not about to toss it away because Uncle Sam and his masters say so.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-05   19:43:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Cynicom (#16)

Relying on media for who did what to whom, when nobody was looking, is not a reliable barometer of what is in flux in this world.

Cyni, please answer with a yes or a no.

Did the US State Department send 5 BILLION dollars to Ukraine anti-Yanukovych groups and NGO's?

Does the US and its NATO affiliates side with the new Ukraine regime?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-05   20:28:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: FormerLurker, Cynicom, Jethro Tull, randge, Tatarewicz (#18)

Do you truly believe that Russia wishes to see another Nazi government take hold on its border? ... Cyni, please answer with a yes or a no.

I'll answer: this is not the proper framing of the question. I suggest that both of you are correct. At an ideal level, Russia does want to be stronger, does not want to have Nazis on its borders, and does want to maintain its sphere of influence in the Ukraine. That much is obvious. America and the EU do want a weaker Russia, again an obvious thing.

But Russians know things are more complex than that, and so do the "Grand Chess Players" under the influence of Brzezinski. The Russians know that NATO and the EU is whittling down their reach into the Ukraine. The Americans know that the Russians are aiming to reassert themselves. The Americans know that Russia could be a bulwark against China if the ZBIG Grand Chess Board falls into place. The Chinese know what the Americans are doing, and so do the Russians. In that sense the Russians also know that the Americans know that China has a greater potential to become the next major antagonist.

This makes you both correct in many ways that are far from mutually exclusive analysis. An unstable Ukraine translates into an "opportunity" for both Russia and the EU/NATO to fulfill their desired results in the region. How it shakes out in the end will not lead to a weakening of Russia, nor will it lead to WWIII directly as many seem to be suggesting. Cyni gets points for alluding to the strategic value the Russians offer the west at this unique point in history. In that sense, the chess board involves the US, its allies, and China, as well as Russia, and the weak Baltic/Eastern European states.

Westerners dominated by globalist values find it difficult to sympathize with the Russians for caring about their ethnic kin, so this twists a wrench into the western strategic machinery. The Chinese know all of this, and should be moving to translate the instability posed by the tumult in western markets into strategic value.

One other thing Cyni. My father fought the Nazis in WWII.
That only increases your responsibility to learn from history and see it with your eyes wide open. I'll assume that you are not a Marxist and you aren't a Zionist. I'll bet that your father did not know much about why he was in the war.

Neither WWII nor WWI were "good wars," and they did not lead to the betterment of Mankind. It's time we begin to understand what that actually means to us. Many of the things Woodrow Wilson and FDR did under the pretenses of "democracy" were overtly totalitarian and collectivist. We can look around today and see that what your father hoped he could achieve by defeating the Germans has not been realized. With conservative estimates putting the death toll of communism beginning in the 1930s at around 60 million people and many more whose lives were destroyed in China, Eastern Europe, and the Soviet Union, the defeat of the Axis simply opened up the world to a worse plague.

Wars rarely have the positive benefits that the grunts are being deployed to achieve. In practice they simply shuffle the political power around, and concentrate it at higher levels than could ever be possible without conflict.

A couple of interesting things are happening right now: the Uyghurs in China's back yard are wigging out. Holy war, anyone? Where have we seen that before? In fact, ZBIG was big in those days too.

To wrap up, American patriots are divided on meddling in the Russian Federation. Some are against it out of sympathy for Russian nationalism, which is different from its former Bolshevist aims of expansion. Others, like Cyni and JT, are more cynical. The Russians were our "allies" during WWII, but the Cold Warriors remember the decision to stop at the River Elbe and let them take Berlin. (So do the German women.)

Solzhenitsyn argues that the peoples who dominated the communist abuses were usually not Russians. But Russians let it happen. It's fair enough that JT and Cyni refuse to be sympathetic to Putin. I'm a simple person: I just want peace. I know better than to shake a stick in Putin's face at this moment. The grand chess board that ZBIG plays has nuclear and biological weapons on it. I find the ZBIG crowd to be unforgivable in this regard. But I've got simple priorities.

This does not make me pro-Putin. I'm pro-America, and I'm for Fortress America in military isolation. America first. If more countries took that approach, it could be a safer world. I don't care for the EU or NATO, seeing them as entangling alliances and collectivist encroachments on national sovereignty of natural nations. This still does not make me a Putin groupie. There's a lot of Pro-Russian chatter out there, and it's not all coming from American nationalists. Count me out of that!

Deasy  posted on  2014-05-06   15:34:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: FormerLurker, Cynicom (#19)

"My intent was to indicate that wars are NOT spontaneous, rather years in the making. " [Cynicom on another thread]

This is a related point: the ZBIG crowd knows it's playing with fire, and so do the Russians. That's acceptable to these people, and all the same unforgivable.

Deasy  posted on  2014-05-06   15:44:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Deasy (#19)

That much is obvious. America and the EU do want a weaker Russia, again an obvious thing.

What would be the advantage of EU and US wanting a weaker Russia?

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-06   15:52:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Cynicom (#21)

I oversimplified again. I should have said that in the short term they may want to weaken Russia's position in central Europe, but in the long run, they know that Russia will rebuild its military capabilities and assist strategically against China. Short and long-term goals with complementary results.

Does that agree with your perspective?

Deasy  posted on  2014-05-06   15:56:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Deasy, Cynicom (#19) (Edited)

I think this whole thing seems like some sort of "game" to some people, and feel that those people aren't looking at the reality of the situation. You speak of "chess boards" and how WWII wasn't such a great thing, well sure, it wasn't, but the real world doesn't play out like a chess board dreamed up by some grand master.

Nazis were driven to commit horrible acts against entire populations, and the Ukraine Nazis were (and ARE) just as bad as the German ones.

I'd say OUR government HAS been and IS following the road to Nazism, where wars of aggression and of choice are as common as the Red Sox or the Yankees making it to the playoffs. Such a transition has been gradual, but became more noticeable once it was clear that the media outlets were simply mouthpieces for the elite and powerful, without any regard whatsoever to truth and integrity.

The LIES and FALSEHOODS being reported as truth by the US media are at levels I've NEVER seen before in my life. Obviously SOME people thought it'd be a great idea to stir up a hornet's nest of trouble in the Ukraine, a neighbor and ally of Russia (who BTW has a LARGE number of nuclear tipped ICBMs, sub launched missiles, etc.) by "gifting" 5 BILLION DOLLARS to anti-government groups, aiding and advising them on how to go about overthrowing their government.

It's also worth mentioning that those whom we supported and placed in power are NAZIS, intent on "cleansing" the country of Ukraine of all Jews, those of Russian ethnicity, and others whom they see as "impure". They recently set fire to 38 or so people in the city of Odessa, after chasing them into a building by gunshots and Molotov cocktails.

There is also the matter of the Russian Black Sea fleet being based in Crimea. Apparently NATO thought they'd be occupying or at least controlling a country hosting one of Russia's most vital naval bases. Being that the Crimean population was largely of Russian ethnicity, it was pretty much a no-brainer that they'd refuse to accept the Nazi government in Kiev, and since they were already an autonomous region with their own political system, decided to secede from Ukraine, requesting Russia to annex them.

This was made out to be some sort of "Russian Invasion" by the liars in the State Department who CREATED this mess in the first place. Russia already HAD tens of thousands of armed forces there due to their naval base, a little factoid never mentioned in the western press.

With acts of war against Russia, such as sanctions, destabilizing a neighboring nation friendly to Russia and vital to its economic infrastructure in terms of pipelines, agriculture, industry, natural resources, and it's military significance, it's amazing that Russia has NOT yet invaded Ukraine to defend its national security and interests, AND of reciprocating by carrying out hostile acts against the US and EU by shutting off gas to Europe and dumping the dollar.

I don't care what some crazy old men conjured up in their heads decades ago or last month for that matter, but it's NOT going to play out in anyone's favor, UNLESS the western governments can admit their role in what is going on, back off on hostile acts and rhetoric, and call it a day.

Never even in the Cold War did we directly confront Russia (with the exception of the Cuban missile crisis, where today we are threatening Russia with missiles in Poland and Czechoslovakia).

Playing with thermonuclear war is a lose-lose situation for the human race. People need to wake up and see things for what they are, or we won't be around much longer to debate about it.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-06   21:43:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Deasy, Cynicom (#22)

but in the long run, they know that Russia will rebuild its military capabilities and assist strategically against China.

Russia and China are signing gas and oil agreements, and Russia has military exercises planned with China in the East China Sea for this month.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-06   21:51:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: FormerLurker (#23)

Playing with thermonuclear war is a lose-lose situation for the human race

Indeed...

We have indulged in two GROUND WARS in Asia in the recent past, neither brought about a nuclear confrontation. In the offing is yet another Asian ground war. We have 25,000 men sitting on the Asian mainland, men that will be written off should China decide for another foray in Asia.

With a movement South by China and its allies, would we sacrifice the troops in Korea and do nothing, engage in yet another land war or use nuclear?

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-06   21:59:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Cynicom (#25)

We have indulged in two GROUND WARS in Asia in the recent past, neither brought about a nuclear confrontation.

Which were both against halves of two tiny countries, North Korea, and North Vietnam. Hell, we can't even win in tiny craphole countries, and we're supposed to be able to win a conventional war against nations who have equal or better aircraft and firepower as we have?

With a movement South by China and its allies, would we sacrifice the troops in Korea and do nothing, engage in yet another land war or use nuclear?

I guess we'll have to wait and see what our sage strategists have in mind...


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-06   22:05:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: FormerLurker (#26)

With a movement South by China and its allies, would we sacrifice the troops in Korea and do nothing, engage in yet another land war or use nuclear?

Which option should this country follow???????

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-06   22:11:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Cynicom (#27)

Which option should this country follow???????

Avoid the confrontation altogether by eliminating our acts of war against other nations, becoming a true partner in world commerce by rebuilding our engineering and manufacturing infrastructure, exporting goods to the world rather than importing them, rebuilding the leadership and character of the military, and imprisoning the corrupt oligarchs who currently control our economy and government.

If we did all those things we wouldn't have to worry about an invasion.

Oh, did I forget about the part where we'd pull out of North Korea in order to save lots of money and avoid the chance of what you ask happening?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-06   22:22:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Cynicom (#27)

Which option should this country follow???????

In the previous post I answered what this country SHOULD do.

What it WOULD do is probably go nuclear. Do you think we'd try bombing Beijing with regular bombs?


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-06   22:24:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: FormerLurker (#28)

The men are there, 25,000 strong. That contingent has been there for 64 years.

What option should we use??????

You are in charge, make the decision, it could happen tonight?

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-06   22:25:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Cynicom (#30)

The men are there, 25,000 strong. That contingent has been there for 64 years.

What option should we use??????

You are in charge, make the decision, it could happen tonight?

It wasn't my idea to have them there. I voted for a guy who WOULD have pulled them out, so don't bitch at me.

My decision if I were president is to PULL THEM OUT.

The ONLY reason for having them there is to have a base adjacent to China. We can get the intelligence we need by satellite these days, we don't need spy stations on the border anymore.

As far as South Korea, they're big boys, they can handle North Korea. If China get's involved, well we screwed the pooch when we gave them all of our technology and military secrets.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-06   22:29:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: FormerLurker (#31)

It wasn't my idea to have them there. I voted for a guy who WOULD have pulled them out, so don't bitch at me.

Trying to have a civil conversation.

The war started two hours ago, North Korea has a million and a half man army heading south, what do you do??? You are in charge.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-06   22:37:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Cynicom (#32)

The war started two hours ago, North Korea has a million and a half man army heading south, what do you do??? You are in charge.

I drop a million and half Playboy magazines on them and in the ensuing chaos I make good my escape.

"Have Brain, Will Travel

Turtle  posted on  2014-05-06   23:16:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Cynicom (#32)

Trying to have a civil conversation.

Sorry for the wry humor, I'll try not to let it slip again...

The war started two hours ago, North Korea has a million and a half man army heading south, what do you do??? You are in charge.

You said China, not North Korea.

That's an impossible scenario, where if I WAS in charge those troops would no longer be there.

In terms of China (which you originally specified); It's a strategic mistake having our troops there. We realistically can't do anything other than launch nukes if China were to attack us. They would obviously be dumping our economy and embargoing any exports (which includes virtually EVERYTHING we need in terms of manufactured goods) already. If they hadn't yet they would.

We'd be screwed if they went to war with us, plain and simple.

In terms of ONLY North Korea invading the south; Aerial bombardment of North Korean artillery, massive artillery attacks against military installations, naval attacks of military and industrial centers, bombardment of forward areas, then massive invasion of North Korea.

But wait, THEY have nukes too. I guess we'd have to see if they launched or not.. If they did then there wouldn't be much to defend, or left to save for that matter.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-06   23:25:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Turtle (#33)

Well, at least that is a non lethal approach.

One day that decision may well have to be made by someone.

There are two approaches to such a situation.

Cut and run, write the 25,000 off or play hardball.

Remember, when the Japs moved south, we wrote off thousands of men. We were naked, toothless, all bluff and no testicles.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-06   23:25:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Cynicom (#32)

The war started two hours ago

And BTW, two hours is an eternity in terms of how long it'd take North Korea to level Seoul along with our bases. Two MINUTES is more like the response time necessary to stop such an attack before it's too late to save the capital and any US bases.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-06   23:28:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: FormerLurker (#34)

That's an impossible scenario, where if I WAS in charge those troops would no longer be there.

They are however there, been there for decades.

North Koreans like the Vietnamese are Chinese pawns, doing Chinas bidding.

What is your decision, the Koreans have been across the border now for three hours, a decision must be made.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-06   23:32:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Cynicom (#37) (Edited)

What is your decision, the Koreans have been across the border now for three hours, a decision must be made.

Well if they're across the border they'd be wearing radiation suits, that or they'd be dying within minutes anyways due to the proximity of the nuclear blast and its radiation.

If North Korea were to attack South Korea it'd be with a nuke. It's a suicide maneuver, but so would be a massive conventional attack against South Korea as it'd trigger massive retaliation against them in terms of conventional weaponry.

I believe I've already answered your question as best I can, several different times.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-06   23:38:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Cynicom (#37)

Ok, I suppose I didn't accept your question as it would not be a scenario which could actually occur without weeks of forewarning (eavesdropping, troop movements visible via satellite, stuff like that...)

So given we'd have naval assets there, along with air power on alert, the aforementioned bombardments would stop any troop advance. Then it'd be time to hit them hard all over the country as I mentioned.

If all else failed, then it'd be time for a tactical nuke to neutralize the million or so troops you mention.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-06   23:45:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: FormerLurker (#38)

If North Korea were to attack South Korea it'd be with a nuke

Possible but not probable.

Recall, we have fought and lost two conventional land wars in Asia.

We refrained from using nuclear, even though we held a superior hand. China and its friends are betting on a huge conventional land war. A war which we would lose. Therefore why should anyone start out throwing nuclear bombs, something that would trigger an all in approach for everyone, with no winners.

We came close during Cuban thing, totally unknown to Kennedy and the military, in that Kruschev had given prior permission for his troops in Cuba to use tactical nuclear weapons in case of an American invasion.

It has been four hours now and North Koreans have taken Seoul, as President you must make a decision.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-05-06   23:49:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Cynicom (#40)

It has been four hours now and North Koreans have taken Seoul, as President you must make a decision.

Try reading what I already wrote.


"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen

FormerLurker  posted on  2014-05-07   0:02:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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