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Business/Finance
See other Business/Finance Articles

Title: Whats the Fed Up To With the Money Supply?
Source: Safe Haven
URL Source: http://www.safehaven.com/showarticle.cfm?id=4331&pv=1
Published: Dec 23, 2005
Author: by Robert McHugh
Post Date: 2005-12-23 13:05:23 by Horse
Keywords: Supply?, Whats, Money
Views: 245
Comments: 108

Over the past two days, December 21st - when our first Hindenburg Omen (of whatever cluster is coming) - and Thursday December 22nd, the Federal Reserve has conducted one of the largest two-day Repo injections of money into the system since back in September 2001. On Wednesday they added $18.0 billion in reserves and on Thursday they added another $20.0 billion. Is this a coincidence, coming right as we get another Hindenburg Omen? Probably not. Is something high-risk going on behind the scenes here? Let's review some facts at the Fed. On November 10th, 2005, shortly after appointing Bernanke to replace Greenbackspan, the Fed mysteriously announced with little comment and no palatable justification that they will hide M-3 effective March 2006. M-3 has been the main staple of money supply measurement and transparent disclosure since the Fed was founded back in 1913. It is the key monetary aggregate that includes Fed Repo transactions, that mechanism whereby the Fed increases reserves. The date when M-3 will start being hidden also happens to be the exact month that Iran will declare economic war against the U.S. Dollar by trading its oil in Petro-Euros on its new bourse. But there is more. The Federal Reserve currently has three vacancies within the 19 top Regional Bank and Board of Governor spots. Why? Part of ongoing wholesale resignations.

The latest is from the Philly Fed. Fed President and Open Market Committee member Anthony Santomero has announced his resignation after only a brief year and a half tenure. Very unusual. Hey, Fed Presidents are treated like gods. They have enormous power, prestige, and presence. Why quit? He is far from alone. Over the past few years no less than six Federal Reserve Regional Bank Presidents have resigned. This is highly unusual.

An immediate impact is that we are about to have a largely inexperienced batch of individuals conducting monetary policy in the United States. So of course, the first thing they will do is hide the key money figures. Two positions for the Board of Governors (there are 7)have been open for quite a while. Plus six of the 12 Regional Head spots have turned over during the past few years.

If a substantial amount of oil transactions will suddenly be conducted in Euros instead of Dollars, this should put pressure on the Dollar as folks exchange Dollars for Euros, jeopardizing the Dollar's status as the world's reserve currency, making it more difficult to print all the dollars the Fed wants to without driving the Dollar into the ground. Iraq threatened to do what Iran has threatened to do just before we went in looking for weapons of mass disappearance. If the Dollar tanks, Treasuries might not be far behind. If Treasuries tank, kiss the Housing-driven boom goodbye. Could the Master Planners be hiding M-3 because they anticipate they may have to monetize the Federal debt, buy our own Treasury Bonds during the coming economic attack against the Dollar? That would require a ton of new fresh money creation - too much to disclose. Could it be some folks at the top of the Fed do not have the stomach to be part of what is about to go down?

M-3 has a direct but lagging impact on financial markets. Look at the chart at the top of the prior page. Whenever M-3 rises, the Dow Industrials rise. Whenever M-3 is flat or declines, the Dow Industrials decline. The Dow Industrials are a bellwether for the economy. If we can monitor M-3, we can better monitor the future path of equities and the economy. It is wrong for the Fed to stop its disclosure for this very reason. Investors need to know in a free market economy, because M-3 infusion is centrally planned intervention into a free market system. Investors need to know when the Master Planners have decided to intervene. Our buy/sell signals were designed to pick up the scent of Master Planner intervention by analyzing supply and demand forces underlying the markets. So with or without a fully disclosed M-3, we will be able to continue to identify coming multi-week trends.

So what about M-3 the past week? The latest figures show that on a seasonally adjusted basis, M-3 rose 27.3 billion last week, a 14.0 percent annualized clip, and is up $76 billion over the past month, a 9.8 percent growth rate. But those are the massaged numbers. For the raw figures, fasten your seat belt. Are you ready? M-3 was increased $58.7 billion last week (that does not include the huge Repo infusions noted above), a 30.0 percent annualized rate of growth. For the past two week, the Fed added $93.5 billion to the money supply, a 24.0 percent annual clip. Over the past 6 weeks it is up $192.9 billion, a 16.7 percent Banana Republic hyperinflationary pace. This is nuts, folks - unless there is an incredible risk out there we are not being told about. That is a lot of money for the Plunge Protection Team's arsenal to buy markets - stocks, bonds, currencies, whatever. This level of irresponsible money supply growth makes shorting markets hazardous, yet at the same time says markets are at huge risk of declining. Maybe M-3 growth doesn't stop the decline this time. Should be a fascinating storm in 2006.

The recent rise in Gold catalogued 74 points over about a month, a 16 percent rally from precisely the day the Fed announced it would hide M-3 from taxpayers and citizens of this great nation. That is no coincidence. Gold sees hyperinflation, monetization of debt, and intervention into free markets. Gold is telling us it expects Ben Bernanke to be an inflationist.


Poster Comment:

My apologies, but as usual with this computer I could not copy the chart. This article does tell us that the M3 money supply is growing at a fast clip. And as of April Fools Day 2006 the FED will no longer tell us how much money they are printing. I still believe that REPORTED INFLATION will be low during 2006,at least, until after the elections in November. But the real purpose is for Wall Street to unload their junk bonds, steal what has not yet been stolen and invest overseas so they can repatriate their funds after the dollar collapses buying America for pennies on the dollar.

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#32. To: mirage (#31)

So, given all that, what is the excuse for not trying to come up with a workable solution?

If society is ignorant and its leaders corrupt, what can one man do beyond speak truth? The trend is not our friend, in this instance. Does it help to complain about the weather?

Phaedrus  posted on  2005-12-24   7:44:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Red Jones (#28)

Man...that is one of the best posts I have ever read. Read the Book, folks...man screws things up so bad that Jesus Christ has to physically return to earth in order to straighten out the mess we've made. (I know, it's considerably more complex than that, but the bottom line is that faith in MAN will NEVER get us out of the situation(s) we find ourselves in.)

who knows what evil  posted on  2005-12-24   8:01:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: mirage (#11)

limit voting to taxpayers only and also cut out anyone recieving public assistance.

This would be very difficult to enforce. Most taxpayers also receive government assistance in some form.

Everyone 65 and over, for instance, would no longer be allowed to vote.

I think the Powers That Be have chosen a more convenient method to ensure results turn out as they desire

. Rather than go the unenforceable route of determining who and who is not a net taxpayer, they have decided to go down the "undetectable fraud" route of "black box voting" all the while pretending for public consumption that there are honest elections.

Sam Houston  posted on  2005-12-24   8:25:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: mirage (#31)

I've got no idea what "liberal Catholics"

on the other thread you ridiculed people who believe in the bible. you said that people who believe in the bible believe in slavery. and then you said you were a liberal catholic.

you are an idiot.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   11:15:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: who knows what evil (#33)

thanks for those kinds words. but I take no credit. I was just getting cranky at mirage. I better stop posting to him.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   11:17:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: DeaconBenjamin, sourcery, tauzero (#30)

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the stongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religous people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.

President John Adams; Address given October 11, 1798. Works of John Adams, Volume IX, p. 229.

Excellent pithy observation.

Would that our nation still had such men willing and able to serve as president.

Would that we'd recognize such men and support them, rather than cast them adrift in that vortex we call the election process.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2005-12-24   14:29:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: sourcery, Elliott Jackalope (#19)

However, although it is necessary to identify the flaws in the Consitution, and to develop ideas on how to fix them, such is not sufficient. The worst problem we've had hasn't been the flaws in the Constition, but rather the flaws in our society, in or schools, in our families and in our selves. No Constitution can remedy apathy, ignorance, indifference and willful disregard of the principles of right and wrong.

You hit the nail squarely on the head. In order for the Constitution, or any other governing document, to mean anything it has to be understood, accepted and respected. Being so many generations removed from it's creation, society has no memory of why it was written the way that it was or understanding of it's importance.

Much of what the Constitution represented to the people who wrote is no longer accepted by most of the country. Take a look at how it was so easily side-stepped during the depression era. The general standard of living wasn't all that extravagant before that time, but the drop was painful. Today we have a much higher level to fall from. A crash from that height will be much more unpleasant. When it happens, the soccer moms sure as hell aren't going to think returning to the Constitution will be the way to go. Nature abhors a vacuum, and those big-assed soccer moms will rally behind whoever convinces them that they can get them back their SUV's, 2500 square foot houses in the suburbs filled with abundant trinkets...no matter what the cost is to them, their neighbors or the rest of the country.

"Shit, Earl....you shot Ted Hollister!"

orangedog  posted on  2005-12-24   15:03:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: mirage, Red Jones, Deacon Benjamin, Phaedrus (#31)

Something from a man who knows where he stands

"I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of God, I will do." - Edward Everett Hale

The Iraq War is an unconstitutional, unjustifiable conflict devouring innocent lives and abetting the growth of an increasingly lawless leviathan state. It must be ended -- now.

christine  posted on  2005-12-24   15:04:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Red Jones (#35)

Sticks and stones, my friend.

mirage  posted on  2005-12-24   17:47:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: mirage (#40)

So, given all that, what is the excuse for not trying to come up with a workable solution?

you're an idiot Mirage. First you bad-mouth bible believers. Then you say you're a liberal catholic. Then you say you don't know what a liberal catholic is. Then you explain to me what a liberal catholic is. Then you make this accusation above to me.

I pegged you a long time ago. You talk round and round with flowery words. and have no understanding.

but merry christmas anyway.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   21:10:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Red Jones (#28)

We must be ruled by god if we are to prosper, or even if we are to live.

I presume you meant to capitalize "God", but that's neither here nor there.

Do you mean the perfectly just "God" who killed 70,000 innocent people to punish David because he was tempted by the devil to take a census?

Or who made a gentleman's wager with the same devil to test the fortitude of his faithful servant Job, and inflicted inordinate misery in the process?

The "God" of perfect compassion who closed the wombs of all of the women of the house of Abimelech because Abraham deluded him regarding his wife, Sarah?

The "God" who believed other gods (particularly of Egypt) lived, necromancy is possible or slavery is a legitimate institution?

The "God" who calls human art corruption on account of his own insecurities. (Deut 4:16)

The "God" who savors burnt offerings, blood-smeared altars and enjoys the death of every living thing in towns that are at odds with "his people"?

The "God" that prescribes bathing a pigeon in anothers blood, or slaying assorted animals for various transgressions?

The "God" who was ready to destroy even his own people when they worshiped a false idol until Moses reminded him that he in fact has a covenant to uphold?

The "God" who endowed man with free will, then got pissed and killed most of them in a worldwide flood for exercising said will?

The "God" who would eternally burn the vast majority of all souls ever created because of the faults of short and sometimes tortured lives?

This tyrant, worse than the villians of other religions has an interest in redeeming anything? And would offer his son for that purpose? This monster should judge me?

I ain't buying.

This subliminal advertising is brought to you by The HonkeyMotherFucker Corporation for Internet Blogging ©2000-2010 all rights reserved worldwide

Dude Lebowski  posted on  2005-12-24   21:59:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

at the top you asked me which god I meant. I mean the god who spoke and with his words brought into existence all creation. I mean the god who is described as the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.

but let me try to respond to other responses of yours one by one, as best I can in next post.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   22:07:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

Do you mean the perfectly just "God" who killed 70,000 innocent people to punish David because he was tempted by the devil to take a census?

Or who made a gentleman's wager with the same devil to test the fortitude of his faithful servant Job, and inflicted inordinate misery in the process?

The "God" of perfect compassion who closed the wombs of all of the women of the house of Abimelech because Abraham deluded him regarding his wife, Sarah?

god has brought down many people and done many things to them that were unpleasant. This is true. he uses every nation for his purposes not for ours'. our understanding of his purposes is not very good, we are limited in that capacity. But he has no problem understanding us completely and far better than we understand ourselves.

history unfolds for the sake of teaching the people who god is and proper attitude we should have towards him. and to test us as individuals so that god can judge us when the appointed time comes. Many people die in this process and it perplexes us greatly.

I wish I knew in the bible where it counsels us about death. God laughs at our deaths in this world. For he can restore us and he tells us not to fear this death. We fear this death and he laughs at us for it. But after death there is a judgement. and this judgement in the negative is like a second death. and god says this second death is what we should fear.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   22:16:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

The "God" who believed other gods (particularly of Egypt) lived, necromancy is possible or slavery is a legitimate institution?

there are many spirits and there are fallen angels as well. there are others besides the one true god with power. If you read Moses' dealings with pharoah in egypt it is obvious that pharoah's preachers could exercise powers and work what we'd call miracles. But who was the more powerful god in those contests. The one true god who is above all others played with the egyptians. he showed them he was the powerful one by comparison. He taught them this and they recognized this. Then he put it into their hearts to still persecute the israelites even though they knew that the one true god was on their side. even after it was clearly demonstrated to them that they were going to be harmed very severely by persecuting the israelites, they still did this. and then they chased after the israelites and tried to kill them, this was even after many miracles were worked by god to protect the israelites. and then when it looked like the israelites would all be slaughtered by this powerful army god worked more miracles. He opened the river up by making the water stand up like a wall and dried out the bed of the river so the israelites could walk across. they were trapped next to the river ready to die it seemed and then god opened the river up and let them walk across the dry river bed. and when they got to the other side they turned and looked and they saw the egyptian army with the pharoah on that dry river bed and then the wall of water let loose and then these pursuers were all killed. that's right. god plotted and planned their deaths. these egyptians learned that god was god, they learned that this god was more powerful than their gods, they recognized this and they knew it was in their interest to let these israelites go. and then god himself put it in their hearts to try to kill the israelites again. and when they tried god killed them. he did this to teach the israelites who was god. that is why he did it.

he did not do it for your comfort or for your bank account or for your pleasure. he did it for his glory.

as far as necromancy goes, I don't know what that word means.

as far as slavery goes, slavery was once a common institution. and when it was common in old testament days and in the days of jesus god did not think so badly of it. he spoke at length in the bible of a master's responsibilities to his slaves and likewise a slave's responsibilities to his master. he actually said in the bible that when you are a slave you should assume you are put in that position by god and to serve your master.

many of the individuals who actually wrote the bible actually were slaves. it seems they didn't have such a money-based market economy as we have today and slavery was a convenient way for people to get by. But I am only telling you obvious things about history with regard to this slavery. Many (like that Mirage naysayer) think that if you believe in the bible then you think slavery is good. this is false. slavery was once a fact of life. In the times when the bible was written there were many skilled craftsmen such as doctors who lived very comfortable and relatively prosperous lives but were slaves. The real poverty in those days was for people who were outside of any established and self-sustaining household and had nothing. there was massive poverty in those days. people lived short lives.

but the one true god is a spirit and more powerful than any of these other spirits.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   22:33:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

The "God" who calls human art corruption on account of his own insecurities. (Deut 4:16)

yes, that's correct. human art is corruption generally, unless inspried by god. nothing good comes from the people. that is true and that is god's view. we people might think different. but we do need to learn god's view, because it is true and we are corrupt.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   22:35:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

The "God" who savors burnt offerings, blood-smeared altars and enjoys the death of every living thing in towns that are at odds with "his people"?

The "God" that prescribes bathing a pigeon in anothers blood, or slaying assorted animals for various transgressions?

in the old testament it drones on and on and on and on for hundreds and hundreds of pages it seems about special ceremonies god gave to the israelites to perform. he gave very meticulous instructions. and he told them exactly who was to perform what among them. and when they fell away from these things he did sometimes kill the offenders, just like that.

he liked blood sacrifices, that is true. and for different transgressions he recommended slaughtering different animals. that is true. and this same god gave the israelites great prosperity as well. he empowered them to kill their enemies. all so they could know that he is god. this was to create the desired atmosphere and to teach the jews, in preparation for jesus' coming here. this was next phase. It goes in phases. we need to pay attention to these phases or seasons. that's why I tell people we are in the season of the end-times now. because jesus will return. judgement will occur. his kingdom will be buil there on earth. the people will be separated. only those who love god and do his work will be admitted into the kingdom of god. The rest will be barred.

these special ceremonies you mention, this was part of what god gave the jews and was called 'the law'. when jesus came he was the fulfillment of the law. and was here to show the whole world the blessings of god. and these blessings were no longer given for following these precise instructions he gave. but to all, not just the jews and to those who believe in him.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   22:46:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Red Jones (#46)

god's view

well, I've read and heard much BS, and if you wan't to adhere to your expressed beliefs, well, go for it.

I'm not joining.

I hope that you aren't expecting others to join you.

Another Mogambo Day

rack42  posted on  2005-12-24   22:49:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

The "God" who was ready to destroy even his own people when they worshiped a false idol until Moses reminded him that he in fact has a covenant to uphold?

The "God" who endowed man with free will, then got pissed and killed most of them in a worldwide flood for exercising said will?

yes, exactly. that is the god I am talking about. for a people like the jews of ancient times or I believe they were called hebrews in those days. I've used the term israelites, I'm not sure that's accurate. for this people the jews who were chosen of god in those days as you say it is a bit dangerous to be so chosen. Because if you turn from him or fail to put forth the actions expected of you, then you can inspire wrath. and that wrath is furious. that is exactly correct.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   22:50:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: rack42 (#48)

I hope that you aren't expecting others to join you.

the fellow named Dude asked me questions. I am merely responding. I'm not expecting anything of you.

do you ever want to express joy and happiness over the god that made you?

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   22:52:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Red Jones (#49)

You've seriously gotten off track from the "point" of the post.

Another Mogambo Day

rack42  posted on  2005-12-24   22:53:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

The "God" who would eternally burn the vast majority of all souls ever created because of the faults of short and sometimes tortured lives?

now I do not believe that it says in the bible that the vast majority will be judged negatively. If it says so, then I'd sure like to know. we do not understand god's judgement so well. God will judge not us. we are all sinners and must be contrite and seek forgiveness. the one true god is a god that forgives.

and also you described this negative judgement as 'eternally burn'. there is a spot in the bible (wish I knew where it was) that tells of an evil rich man who had no sympathy for the poor ending up in a spot after death where he felt like he was in a lake of fire. and there's a spot where it says that jesus will throw satan into a lake of fire. but this is only in two spots. In other spots it describes this negative judgement differently. the word 'eternal' is used sometimes. But the phrase 'for a thousand years' is used in other spots to describe the time period for this punishment. It is hard to know the meaning. but god's judgement is always just. and I think it is good.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   22:57:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

I liked reading in the bible that there will be a day when the believers of god will tear down the evil ones who oppose god and bring them right before god and kill them in front of him for his pleasure. I really liked that part.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   23:00:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Red Jones (#50)

do you ever want to express joy and happiness over the god that made you?

Non sequitur.

I know that you can't handle this logical-linear thinking. Your thinking is magical.

Please note that I do not "believe" in the "Big Bang." I do not "belive" in "EVOLUTION."

By the same token, I do not "believe" in the "Holy" Bible.

All of them are, IMHO, garbage.

None pass my "smell test."

Another Mogambo Day

rack42  posted on  2005-12-24   23:08:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

This tyrant, worse than the villians of other religions has an interest in redeeming anything? And would offer his son for that purpose? This monster should judge me?

You sound like a hindu idol worshiper. (no offense intended to hindus). the hindus believe you can choose your own god. there is only one god that is worth worshiping, that is above all others and has all power.

and yes, that god will judge you. and this should give you cause to fear god. and the fear of god is the beginning of wisdom. and that is what the bible says. Don't blame me.

the bible says that people of other faiths who are pious and loyal to their consciences can be judged positively when judgement comes. it does not ridicule other faiths. I'd rather throw my lot in with a pious humble muslim who feared god than an arrogant christian zionist who wants to kill iraqis for jesus. the bible says that god is a spirit, not a denomination or religious sect. the organized religions are ridiculed in the bible.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   23:12:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)

I ain't buying.

that's your choice. here is a bible verse regarding it.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

this ever-lasting life you can choose freely. god has given us that choice. Remember, god created the world and all in it, we did not. We don't make the rules. he does. if you turn your back on god you will be cut off, lost and confused, your mind will be turned over to evil things. But if you seek him and his face, then events in your life will show you the way of life, everlasting life, that he will give you. it is your choice.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   23:24:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: rack42 (#54)

do you ever want to express joy and happiness over the god that made you?

Non sequitur.

no, it is a question you dumb ass. I don't even know what non sequitur means.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   23:26:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Red Jones (#55)

I'd rather throw my lot in with a pious humble muslim who feared god than an arrogant christian zionist who wants to kill iraqis for jesus.

Red, that is a beautiful sentiment, full of what I feel G-d's desire really is.

I sure ain't Pat Robinson and his fellow travellers.

tom007  posted on  2005-12-24   23:26:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: rack42 (#54)

Your thinking is magical.

life is magical. praise god.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   23:27:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: All (#58)

non sequitur means.

LAtin - "not in sequence", meaning "does not follow".

tom007  posted on  2005-12-24   23:28:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: rack42 (#54)

I do not "believe" in the "Holy" Bible.

All of them are, IMHO, garbage.

None pass my "smell test."

Your opinion is wrong. God is very real. The Holy Bible is his word. You will know this in the not too distant future. Either before you die, or after, but you will know it soon.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]

RickyJ  posted on  2005-12-24   23:29:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: tom007 (#58)

all I did was post that thread called "Luke Chapter 2". and immediately I was attacked, not on that thread, but on this thread for comments I made a long time ago. Someone decided that their tolerance limit was reached when I posted that Luke Chapter 2 stuff. and then all I did was sincerely answer every question & comment I could. and then I was attacked again. I don't mind though. I'm happy about it.

I need to read the bible better and study better so that I can answer such questions better.

merry christmas.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   23:30:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: RickyJ (#61)

Either before you die, or after, but you will know it soon

that is true RickyJ. here's a bible verse.

Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

history will unfold to make this verse true. It will be spectacular.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   23:34:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: rack42, Tom007 (#54)

do you ever want to express joy and happiness over the god that made you? Non sequitur.

I know that you can't handle this logical-linear thinking. Your thinking is magical.

Please note that I do not "believe" in the "Big Bang." I do not "belive" in "EVOLUTION."

By the same token, I do not "believe" in the "Holy" Bible.

All of them are, IMHO, garbage.

now rack42, since Tom explained to me what that latin word means I can better converse with you on this.

I think you're saying it is not logical to praise the one who made us. I may have a magical or mystical side to my thought process, but I have a logical side also. and it is illogical (non sequitor) to think that just because a person can think in a mystical manner that he can't think in a logical manner. but it is very logical to worship the one that made you, especially if he is god and he wants you to worship him and is teaching you to worship him.

here's a possible explanation for your failure to be logical on these matters - it comes in a bible verse.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

you see if you reject god, then your mind will be turned over to illogical thinking, perverted thinking and wrong thinking. that may explain (in a logical sequitor fashion) why you feel it is illogical to worship the one that made you, especially when the one who made you wants you to do this. because I don't follow your logic, it doesn't make sense to me.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-24   23:57:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Red Jones (#44)

god has brought down many people and done many things to them that were unpleasant.

Not to be a contrarian, but this couldn't possible be God. Rather is is a literal account of Eastern desert scribes depiction of a God. Every tribe had one or many and in every case they were nationalistic deities and favored only their own, they were great and powerful, fair and just etc. etc. Yahweh is no more realistic than Osiris, Horus or Isis. But you wouldn't think about worshipping them.

But he has no problem understanding us completely and far better than we understand ourselves.

He only understood what his authors wanted him to understand; the worst characteristics of humanity - envy, avarice, narcissism, irritibility, cruelty. His sensibilities mirror those of the men of the era. He loved gold and precious gems, in fact his kingdom and tabernacle are littered with them. But on the molecular level they are simply condensed energy. Like wood and granite.

He understands everything, correct? Except the scientific principles of the world he created. On behalf of Isaiah and Hezekiah he stopped the Earth, which spins at a thousand miles per hour, reversed it's rotation without upsetting anything else, mind you, and set the sundial back 15 degrees (1 hour, I believe). Of course you have no trouble believing that. It's a miracle and God could (and in fact did) it, right? Yet if I told you, and sincerely believed myself there was once a lesser deity named Promethuis who has his heart and liver eaten daily by an eagle only to have it constantly grow back... well that's the variety of miracle you probably laugh off. So it's all subjective, but as I haven't witnessed any such burning bushes, talking donkeys or cheubim myself, I choose to remain skeptical.

But after death there is a judgement.

This is a subjective claim. I have no doubts that everything that exists in nature is needed. Is there a cosmic need for post-mortem reprisals against the exceedingly naughty. I doubt it. Another possible misconception born of the mind of man. Generally when I argue religion I get the believer to reveal something when he says "Well what if there is a hell". He reveals uncertainty, since no one really knows (even near-death experiences might brain functions). So he acknowledges that it's good to hedge your bets and believe. Well philospohically and spiritually I need more than that and empty promises of bliss in the next life. The slaves and the downtrodden needed a belief in something better the next time around. Now the creed only appeals to vanity. You want your self, your personal property (experiences, personality) to last forever. We know some of this is kept in certain centers of the brain which stays here and rots after death. So when the sea gives up her dead and every once living person is resurrected (Lot's sister mentioned this), do the molecules that comprised them also return? Even after they've long since been recycled into new things and people? Heck, if you believe in miracles, why not? Everything could be a potential miracle if God says so? Pigs could fly if God wanted them to.

As for me, it's too unlikely a story.

there are many spirits and there are fallen angels as well. there are others besides the one true god with power.

Do you see these guys often? Their existence made perfect sense to ignorant people thousands of years ago. Before diseases had causes or names, strokes of bad fortune, severe weather phenomena. It was demons and spirits and spiteful heffalumps. They are no more real than ghosts.

as far as slavery goes, slavery was once a common institution. and when it was common in old testament days and in the days of jesus god did not think so badly of it.

Interesting. So the age old question of morality. Morality clearly says you can't enslave another. It doesn't matter what was common then. To Yahweh it was immoral to disrespect him. But that isn't nearly as immoral as murder, as we know morality. So where does law come from? From a flawed idea of God. Or did he invent sin which is inordinately more evil than commiting it. Don't go on the original sin tangent because carniverous dinosaurs and pre-human creatures, which are fact, disprove that concept.

So God could have set things straight and said, don't enslave your fellow man or don't wage wars of vengance or don't kill in my name as additional commandments. But he didn't. Jesus, in seeing the future could have said, don't torture others on my account but he didn't.

In his name an inordinate amount of bodies have been tortured and mental growth stunted. He even said he came not to bring peace, but the sword. To seperate fathers from daughters, etc. Or something to that effect.

Sadly, he was correct about that.

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Dude Lebowski  posted on  2005-12-25   0:28:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Dude Lebowski, Mekons4 (#65)

Existence is a hell we must each crawl out of, always has been always will be. To remake the human condition is to impose tyranny, for people choose to be corrupt, and no amount of coercion shall cleanse them - Dak 1 : 03 am

And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush

Dakmar  posted on  2005-12-25   0:51:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)

"Well what if there is a hell". He reveals uncertainty, since no one really knows

as I alluded to earlier - this is controversial in the christian world - whether there is a hell or not. Because something like the popular conception of hell is described in the bible. but briefly and the concept is not well developed in the bible. god's creation is a mystery, and we are purposely kept ignorant of some aspects of it. we are prompted to have faith. the words of the bible that describe things like hell, the after-life, etc., and many other things can be interpreted differently by different people. we are to have faith in what god tells us, not to know everything.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-25   1:03:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)

So when the sea gives up her dead and every once living person is resurrected (Lot's sister mentioned this), do the molecules that comprised them also return? Even after they've long since been recycled into new things and people? Heck, if you believe in miracles, why not? Everything could be a potential miracle if God says so?

I don't know the precise answer to that, whether the person's body is restored and made youthful even, etc. But I think likely so. and as you said, if god can create us, then why can't he re-create us?

so many think judgement is to occur right after death. I believe there are references in the bible that when you die it is possible to be immediately restored and brought to a kingdom of god that is not on this earth, a place like the popular conception of heaven. and as I said there are also references that a person can be immediately punished too. But there are many references that these people who have died are sleeping. There are far far more references that say judgement will occur at an appointed time at the end of this era of history rather than immediately on death. what will happen is as you say the people who lived throughout time will be restored regardless of when they lived. and then they'll all be judged.

we don't know when that will be. But we tend to believe that we are in the season of the end of this era now. but we don't know how long that season will last. The bible does say that to god a thousand years is as a day. God has great patience. Time means little to him. This season can last a long time. The bible says that when this end of this era comes it will come suddenly and by surprise and that no one will expect it when it comes.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-25   1:13:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Red Jones (#55)

the bible says that people of other faiths who are pious and loyal to their consciences can be judged positively when judgement comes. it does not ridicule other faiths. I'd rather throw my lot in with a pious humble muslim who feared god than an arrogant christian zionist who wants to kill iraqis for jesus. the bible says that god is a spirit, not a denomination or religious sect. the organized religions are ridiculed in the bible.

That's beautiful Red, and I wish that everyone who claims to believe in some sort of higher being could grasp that simple concept. It seems to me much of the friction between religios and secular types is caused by a small minority of each fostering ill will. I myself am an athiest, and I've seen athiesm attacked many times here as some sort of monstrous hate-cult, but I assure you I'd never do anything like that. I think everyone (ok, not everyone...) gets too emotional about stuff and blows it, but most people are conditioned to be barking dogs, left and right, protestant and catholic, hindoo and hyena worshipper...

The Mainstream Media keeps attacking my beliefs too, saying it's trite to be a fiscal conservative but a social liberal (all the while, I might point out, I'm a boatload more fiscally conservative than they even have cold sweat nightmares about)

another belief they insist on stomping on is "not religious, but spiritual", which, granted is a cop-out used by millions of chanting mush-heads, who are prolly getting paid in PTL dollars.

Basically what I believe is that there is no congealed god that has a concienscienous of its own, it is an energy that is made of the spirit energy of every living thing.

And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush

Dakmar  posted on  2005-12-25   1:18:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)

Morality clearly says you can't enslave another.

that is a very interesting point. I think that popular morality we have today says exactly as you say. But I am under the impression that the bible does not have an absolute condemnation of slavery in it. If I am wrong, I'd like to know.

many bible characters that god favored did own slaves.

Consider george washington. he owned slaves. Many say they hate him for it. What would you have done if you were in george washington's shoes in 1770 or so when he inherited his father-in-law's slaves. Would you free your slaves in order to meet modern morality's standards? If so, then those slaves would've been destitute, they'd have died young in poverty. In Virginia it was illegal to be black and free at that time. They would've had to leave the state. Where would they go, how would they get by? Far better to let them stay and treat them decently. The slave population on george washington's land did prosper. He had three times the # of slaves he needed to work his land. He refused to sell or trade any of them unless he got written permission from the slave to do so. He never got that permission and never sold or traded any. He sacrificed family money to keep them. he did the right thing. On his death he willed that his family offer free education through college level to all his slaves, and that they be allowed to leave at any time they wanted. The last slave left Washington's land 34 years after he died. The guy was born 7 years after Washington died and had a college education. George Washington did the right thing, but he owned slaves.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-25   1:21:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Red Jones (#70)

George Washington wan't a bible character, Red. :)

And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush

Dakmar  posted on  2005-12-25   1:23:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)

So where does law come from?

all depends on what you mean by 'the law'. There is a powerful old testament concept called 'the law'. This is where god gave 'the law' to Moses and he told it to the jews. It says in the bible we should pattern our laws on earth after those laws he gave. I wish we did. We do not though. We have tried to do so at times in our history. This results in just laws. But here on earth man makes laws through the governments he has. But the bible says that god chooses the rulers for all nations. The biblical view is that it is foolish to think that man really rules. If god wants a nation to prosper he will appoint wise rulers. If he wants to perform some other purpose with that nation, then he appoints rulers to that nation who perform those other purposes. Those other purposes could be punishment for that nation or destruction or to be used to destroy yet another nation, or some other purpose. The bible says that god appoints these leaders and then the people follow like sheep. it is a supernatural process. I do not believe that christians should put faith in democracy or democratic republic systems of governments as being of god. these are of man.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-12-25   1:27:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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