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Title: Whats the Fed Up To With the Money Supply?
Source:
Safe Haven
URL Source: http://www.safehaven.com/showarticle.cfm?id=4331&pv=1
Published: Dec 23, 2005
Author: by Robert McHugh
Post Date: 2005-12-23 13:05:23 by Horse
Keywords: Supply?, Whats, Money
Views: 152
Comments: 108
Over the past two days, December 21st - when our first Hindenburg Omen (of whatever cluster is coming) - and Thursday December 22nd, the Federal Reserve has conducted one of the largest two-day Repo injections of money into the system since back in September 2001. On Wednesday they added $18.0 billion in reserves and on Thursday they added another $20.0 billion. Is this a coincidence, coming right as we get another Hindenburg Omen? Probably not. Is something high-risk going on behind the scenes here? Let's review some facts at the Fed. On November 10th, 2005, shortly after appointing Bernanke to replace Greenbackspan, the Fed mysteriously announced with little comment and no palatable justification that they will hide M-3 effective March 2006. M-3 has been the main staple of money supply measurement and transparent disclosure since the Fed was founded back in 1913. It is the key monetary aggregate that includes Fed Repo transactions, that mechanism whereby the Fed increases reserves. The date when M-3 will start being hidden also happens to be the exact month that Iran will declare economic war against the U.S. Dollar by trading its oil in Petro-Euros on its new bourse. But there is more. The Federal Reserve currently has three vacancies within the 19 top Regional Bank and Board of Governor spots. Why? Part of ongoing wholesale resignations. The latest is from the Philly Fed. Fed President and Open Market Committee member Anthony Santomero has announced his resignation after only a brief year and a half tenure. Very unusual. Hey, Fed Presidents are treated like gods. They have enormous power, prestige, and presence. Why quit? He is far from alone. Over the past few years no less than six Federal Reserve Regional Bank Presidents have resigned. This is highly unusual. An immediate impact is that we are about to have a largely inexperienced batch of individuals conducting monetary policy in the United States. So of course, the first thing they will do is hide the key money figures. Two positions for the Board of Governors (there are 7)have been open for quite a while. Plus six of the 12 Regional Head spots have turned over during the past few years. If a substantial amount of oil transactions will suddenly be conducted in Euros instead of Dollars, this should put pressure on the Dollar as folks exchange Dollars for Euros, jeopardizing the Dollar's status as the world's reserve currency, making it more difficult to print all the dollars the Fed wants to without driving the Dollar into the ground. Iraq threatened to do what Iran has threatened to do just before we went in looking for weapons of mass disappearance. If the Dollar tanks, Treasuries might not be far behind. If Treasuries tank, kiss the Housing-driven boom goodbye. Could the Master Planners be hiding M-3 because they anticipate they may have to monetize the Federal debt, buy our own Treasury Bonds during the coming economic attack against the Dollar? That would require a ton of new fresh money creation - too much to disclose. Could it be some folks at the top of the Fed do not have the stomach to be part of what is about to go down? M-3 has a direct but lagging impact on financial markets. Look at the chart at the top of the prior page. Whenever M-3 rises, the Dow Industrials rise. Whenever M-3 is flat or declines, the Dow Industrials decline. The Dow Industrials are a bellwether for the economy. If we can monitor M-3, we can better monitor the future path of equities and the economy. It is wrong for the Fed to stop its disclosure for this very reason. Investors need to know in a free market economy, because M-3 infusion is centrally planned intervention into a free market system. Investors need to know when the Master Planners have decided to intervene. Our buy/sell signals were designed to pick up the scent of Master Planner intervention by analyzing supply and demand forces underlying the markets. So with or without a fully disclosed M-3, we will be able to continue to identify coming multi-week trends. So what about M-3 the past week? The latest figures show that on a seasonally adjusted basis, M-3 rose 27.3 billion last week, a 14.0 percent annualized clip, and is up $76 billion over the past month, a 9.8 percent growth rate. But those are the massaged numbers. For the raw figures, fasten your seat belt. Are you ready? M-3 was increased $58.7 billion last week (that does not include the huge Repo infusions noted above), a 30.0 percent annualized rate of growth. For the past two week, the Fed added $93.5 billion to the money supply, a 24.0 percent annual clip. Over the past 6 weeks it is up $192.9 billion, a 16.7 percent Banana Republic hyperinflationary pace. This is nuts, folks - unless there is an incredible risk out there we are not being told about. That is a lot of money for the Plunge Protection Team's arsenal to buy markets - stocks, bonds, currencies, whatever. This level of irresponsible money supply growth makes shorting markets hazardous, yet at the same time says markets are at huge risk of declining. Maybe M-3 growth doesn't stop the decline this time. Should be a fascinating storm in 2006. The recent rise in Gold catalogued 74 points over about a month, a 16 percent rally from precisely the day the Fed announced it would hide M-3 from taxpayers and citizens of this great nation. That is no coincidence. Gold sees hyperinflation, monetization of debt, and intervention into free markets. Gold is telling us it expects Ben Bernanke to be an inflationist.
Poster Comment: My apologies, but as usual with this computer I could not copy the chart. This article does tell us that the M3 money supply is growing at a fast clip. And as of April Fools Day 2006 the FED will no longer tell us how much money they are printing. I still believe that REPORTED INFLATION will be low during 2006,at least, until after the elections in November. But the real purpose is for Wall Street to unload their junk bonds, steal what has not yet been stolen and invest overseas so they can repatriate their funds after the dollar collapses buying America for pennies on the dollar.
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#1. To: Horse (#0)
Ping to the unUsusal Suspects Richard W.
Iraq did more than threaten. http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/RRiraqWar.html "The Federal Reserve's greatest nightmare is that OPEC will switch its international transactions from a dollar standard to a euro standard. Iraq actually made this switch in Nov. 2000 (when the euro was worth around 82 cents), and has actually made off like a bandit considering the dollar's steady depreciation against the euro. (Note: the dollar declined 17% against the euro in 2002.) "The real reason the Bush administration wants a puppet government in Iraq -- or more importantly, the reason why the corporate-military-industrial network conglomerate wants a puppet government in Iraq -- is so that it will revert back to a dollar standard and stay that way." (While also hoping to veto any wider OPEC momentum towards the euro, especially from Iran -- the 2nd largest OPEC producer who is actively discussing a switch to euros for its oil exports)."
Iran has been feeling pretty frisky lately now that they have us sinking in the swamp of Iraq. Richard W.
It could very well be that Iran will go to selling oil for euros knowing full well it will trigger world war. I note that on the radio they report that the US dollar will close the year higher against most major currencies than it started the year. With the massive trade deficit we have (the largest as a percentage of gdp sustained this long in world history) the dollar should drop. and yet it rises. because it is an artificial currency, propped up artificially, given artificial strength. so that the people of the world can pay a tribute. think about it. We can buy without exporting to cover our purchases. Nobody else can. It is a system of tribute.
Of course it is. Our government acts exactly as you would exact any mafia street thug to act. Pay me protection and do what you are told, and nothing blows up. If you don't, well then maybe a train or something goes boom. Richard W.
that's the sad part - the more effectively we resist them, then the worse the 'terrorism' will get. that's one reason I don't really advocate thinking that we can win. I do advocate informing people and educating them.
Let me help with that :)
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
It seems that I pinged without the ping. Ha! Thanks. Richard W.
Old proverb goes something like this: "When your enemy is busy destroying themselves, get out of the way and let them continue doing what they're doing". We don't have to win, we just have to survive, because this system is doing a fine job of tearing itself to pieces. Our efforts are best spent in thinking about what we want to build in the vacuum created by the sudden implosion of this system. Because if we don't have a plan, I can assure you that they do, and they're ready to implement it. Therefore I suggest that we spend less time talking about how bad things are, and instead talk about what we want to build once this nightmare passes. One other thought: Blind worship of the Constitution is not the solution, the Constitution is a great but deeply flawed document, and we need to ponder these flaws and come up with something new that embodies the spirt of the Constitution while also having a chance of working and persisting in the real world.
#2. To: Horse (#0)
Iraq threatened to do what Iran has threatened to do just before we went in looking for weapons of mass disappearance.
#3. To: Sam Houston (#2)
#4. To: Arete (#3)
#5. To: Red Jones (#4)
It is a system of tribute
#6. To: Arete (#5)
Pay me protection and do what you are told, and nothing blows up
#7. To: Arete, *unUsual Suspects* (#1)
Ping to the unUsusal Suspects
#8. To: Starwind (#7)
#9. To: Red Jones (#6)
That's one reason I don't really advocate thinking that we can win. I do advocate informing people and educating them.
 | Gold and silver are real money, paper is but a promise. |
#10. To: Elliott Jackalope (#9)
well, I sure hope you're right Elliott. and I certainly don't want to get in the way of any solutions. and I will admit that it doesn't do much good to harp on the extreme negatives, and I certainly do that.
sudden implosion of this system
#11. To: Elliott Jackalope (#9)
No problem. Here is how to solve all problems very quickly: Change the interstate commerce clause by adding this: ... but these powers are limited to regulating only the movement of goods and services across state borders. That ought to fix 80% of the woes we face in terms of regulation. The rest of it is fine the way it is with one exception - limit voting to taxpayers only and also cut out anyone recieving public assistance.
Blind worship of the Constitution is not the solution, the Constitution is a great but deeply flawed document, and we need to ponder these flaws and come up with something new that embodies the spirt of the Constitution while also having a chance of working and persisting in the real world.
#12. To: Horse (#0)
Hey that makes us even, I don't tell them how much money I am printing either. LOL!
And as of April Fools Day 2006 the FED will no longer tell us how much money they are printing.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#13. To: mirage (#11)
And this would end corporate dominace of our political system? This would end unlimited lobbying money? This would do something about our insane policies of unlimited free trade, unlimited immivasion and unlimited government power? By fixing the commerce clause? How? Sorry, we need to do a whole lot more thinking than that. One thing we need to think about is the whole idea of politicians. Is it really a good idea to have people who go into and then out of public service? Is it really a good idea to have politicians be multi-millionaires? Or would something more like a priesthood model be more appropriate, a system where one takes a vow of poverty and service, and is then guaranteed a modest living for the rest of their days, whether or not they are re-elected? And that's just one thing that needs to be re-thought, I've got lots of other issues with the Constitution, believe me. For example: It purports to be a great document for defining the government of a nation, but does absolutely nothing to acknowlege or even define what a nation is. Is a nation a polyglot assembly of every different tribe, race, color, creed and belief system shoved together into a work camp run by gangsters? Or is a nation more like an extended family, a larger reflection of the families that make it up? Because if that is the case, then we need to consider the issues of race, religion and culture. Oh, that's right, in the current system we can't even bring those issues up, can we?
| Gold and silver are real money, paper is but a promise. |
#14. To: Elliott Jackalope, mirage (#13)
I agree with Elliott on this point. and I chastise you mirage for putting faith in man and the things of man. We can't even follow the constitution as is. The constitution is just a piece of paper and nobody respects it other than in a token ceremonial way. That is fact, and if you want me to explain that to you I will. So, what good would it do to change it? In theory you have a good idea mirage. But you under-estimate the failure of man. You put your faith in man, a fatal mistake. The American nation has exposed the flaws of mankind for all to see. If evil has attacked our nation and we cannot prevail over it, then think how hopeless it is that other (lesser) nations can likewise prevail. Trying to be positive though, our ancestors used to tar and feather leaders that were known to be their enemies. That would help.
One thing we need to think about is the whole idea of politicians.
#15. To: Elliott Jackalope (#13)
No man made system of government will work very long, man is just too stupid and evil to get it right. The rise and fall of nations has been going on since the beginning of time, the USA won't be any different.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#16. To: Elliott Jackalope (#13)
I think a nation is like a family. and when those who rule over us take away national sovereignty for not only our nations, but for others as well, then they are engaging in great evil. that is what they have done on a mass scale with the New World Order / World Trade Organization and similar institutions.
Or is a nation more like an extended family
#17. To: RickyJ (#15)
It's not really a question of "getting it right", it's a question of getting things to where they work "good enough". And I believe that can be accomplished. However, we are dealing with modern times, and modern people, and a whole new geopolitical reality, so we're going to need some new ideas. And that's what forums and debate are for, so that people can toss out ideas for others to kick around like a rag doll, and maybe something good will come of it. I'm still just barely idealistic enough to think maybe this can make a difference.
| Gold and silver are real money, paper is but a promise. |
#18. To: Arete, Starwind (#8)
The Zen of the web: "If a poster pings on a message board without actually specifying the intended recipients, will there be any discussion?" Looks like the answer is yes.
It seems that I pinged without the ping. Ha!
 | "Over it is not, until over it is." -- Yoda Berra |
#19. To: Elliott Jackalope (#9)
Agreed. However, although it is necessary to identify the flaws in the Consitution, and to develop ideas on how to fix them, such is not sufficient. The worst problem we've had hasn't been the flaws in the Constition, but rather the flaws in our society, in or schools, in our families and in our selves. No Constitution can remedy apathy, ignorance, indifference and willful disregard of the principles of right and wrong.
Therefore I suggest that we spend less time talking about how bad things are, and instead talk about what we want to build once this nightmare passes.
| "Over it is not, until over it is." -- Yoda Berra |
#20. To: sourcery (#19)
I'll agree with that .. .. even at the risk that I am in agreement with George Bush on this point when he said it was just a g. d. piece of paper. We don't follow the constitution one bit you know. The constitution says that congress is supposed to regulate the creation and management of our money supply. In practice the federal reserve (a private bank) does this, the federal reserve is never even audited, nobody knows what they do; and they just announced that they wouldn't even tell us what the money supply is any more. So, congress has completely capitulated and is not following the cosntitution on this point at all. The first ammendment is another example. Congress shall make no law restricting freedom of speech, etc. But congress does make laws specifically limiting political speech, and when the US Supreme court was asked if this was constitutional it did not even mention the First Ammendment in its ruling, it used a European court precedent to justify the restrictions on political speech that were done in laws passed by constitution. the constitution is just a g. d. piece of paper. We'd like it to be more, but it is not.
No Constitution can remedy apathy, ignorance, indifference and willful disregard of the principles of right and wrong.
#21. To: Elliott Jackalope (#13)
I've said it would fix the Constitution. For the rest of it, Got Lead?
#22. To: Red Jones (#14)
There is no hope? We should just stop trying to improve things? Never. You are to be chastened for giving up and accepting things as is. There is always room for improvement. Perhaps we should try some.
I agree with Elliott on this point. and I chastise you mirage for putting faith in man and the things of man.
#23. To: Elliott Jackalope (#17)
The Constitution, as written, is fine. The Constitution, as interpreted, rapes the original document. Changing it would mean nothing. Centralization of FedGov power has been underway for well over a century and was markedly accelerated by Franklin Roosevelt (not my hero). Negative social, political and fiscal trends have been firmly in place for decades. They are worsening. I do NOT think there is any solution within the current political system. I believe we will crash and burn and that all attempts at reform are a waste of time and energy. All just my opinion, of course ...
#24. To: Red Jones (#20)
We'd like it to be more, but it is not. And a computer program is just electrons arranged in patterns to represent ones and zeros. A Consititition is like a computer program. The program can't run correctly if the machine that executes it is flawed. A Constitution can't operate correctly if the society that animates it is dysfunctional.
the constitution is just a g. d. piece of paper.
| "Over it is not, until over it is." -- Yoda Berra |
#25. To: sourcery (#24)
A Constitution can't operate correctly if the society that animates it is dysfunctional.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#26. To: Starwind (#25)
Shame on you ! :P
Click to see: Making a difference in Iraq
#27. To: sourcery (#24)
(bandwidth thief!...Grrr... plagerist maybe, but bandwidth thief? ?? If ya don't want your pic's served up, don't put'm on the web - Sheesh!)
A Constitution can't operate correctly if the society that animates it is dysfunctional.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#28. To: mirage (#22)
you are a fool to put your faith in man or the things of man. Nothing really good ever came from a man. What men produce we build sewers and treatment plants for. if we turn our hearts to god, then our nation can be healed. and there is no other way. it is foolish to pretend that by tweaking a law or through some educational innovation or super-therapy for the people that things will improve. The United States of America was a strong effort by man to rule himself. This effort has failed, you are a fool not to see this. We must be ruled by god if we are to prosper, or even if we are to live. you are enamored with man mirage.
Perhaps we should try some.
#29. To: mirage (#22)
tell me what the 'liberal catholics' think about this - are we going to evolve? how sophistocated the liberal catholics are. The condition of man will not change until god makes it change. This will not happen until trials & tribulations, judgement and the kingdom of god built here on earth by jesus.
You are to be chastened for giving up and accepting things as is
#30. To: Starwind, sourcery (#25)
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the stongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religous people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. President John Adams; Address given October 11, 1798. Works of John Adams, Volume IX, p. 229.
A Constitution can't operate correctly if the society that animates it is dysfunctional.
#31. To: Red Jones (#29)
Good question. I've got no idea what "liberal Catholics" think because there is no real way to define what one is. I would assume one might say a "liberal Catholic" is simply one who thumbs his nose at the Vatican and often times ignores the occasional utter rubbish and nonsense that comes out of them? That would be the definition I'd use. The defining mark of Catholicism, as you should know, is the use of reason. That particular characteristic was cast into stone by St. Augustine and has been a defining hallmark of that particular branch of Christianity ever since. The Vatican, to this day, continues to accept "proofs" of God's existance. It is even part of Catholic theology to "let your conscience be your guide" for in that, God speaks to you, and "no man who does something in good conscience can be held accountable in judgment for his actions." - both of those quotes can be found in the Essential Moral Handbook with Imprimatur. A typical Catholic would tell you that God gave you a brain and you're expected to use it, learn from your errors, and not make the same mistake twice. One would assume that a "liberal Catholic" would also tell you the same thing. One might also assume that God would tell you the same thing, that He gave you a brain, the capacity to use it, and expects you to do just that. So, given all that, what is the excuse for not trying to come up with a workable solution?
#32. To: mirage (#31)
If society is ignorant and its leaders corrupt, what can one man do beyond speak truth? The trend is not our friend, in this instance. Does it help to complain about the weather?
So, given all that, what is the excuse for not trying to come up with a workable solution?
#33. To: Red Jones (#28)
Man...that is one of the best posts I have ever read. Read the Book, folks...man screws things up so bad that Jesus Christ has to physically return to earth in order to straighten out the mess we've made. (I know, it's considerably more complex than that, but the bottom line is that faith in MAN will NEVER get us out of the situation(s) we find ourselves in.)
#34. To: mirage (#11)
This would be very difficult to enforce. Most taxpayers also receive government assistance in some form. Everyone 65 and over, for instance, would no longer be allowed to vote. I think the Powers That Be have chosen a more convenient method to ensure results turn out as they desire . Rather than go the unenforceable route of determining who and who is not a net taxpayer, they have decided to go down the "undetectable fraud" route of "black box voting" all the while pretending for public consumption that there are honest elections.
limit voting to taxpayers only and also cut out anyone recieving public assistance.
#35. To: mirage (#31)
on the other thread you ridiculed people who believe in the bible. you said that people who believe in the bible believe in slavery. and then you said you were a liberal catholic. you are an idiot.
I've got no idea what "liberal Catholics"
#36. To: who knows what evil (#33)
thanks for those kinds words. but I take no credit. I was just getting cranky at mirage. I better stop posting to him.
#37. To: DeaconBenjamin, sourcery, tauzero (#30)
President John Adams; Address given October 11, 1798. Works of John Adams, Volume IX, p. 229. Excellent pithy observation. Would that our nation still had such men willing and able to serve as president. Would that we'd recognize such men and support them, rather than cast them adrift in that vortex we call the election process.
We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the stongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religous people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#38. To: sourcery, Elliott Jackalope (#19)
You hit the nail squarely on the head. In order for the Constitution, or any other governing document, to mean anything it has to be understood, accepted and respected. Being so many generations removed from it's creation, society has no memory of why it was written the way that it was or understanding of it's importance. Much of what the Constitution represented to the people who wrote is no longer accepted by most of the country. Take a look at how it was so easily side-stepped during the depression era. The general standard of living wasn't all that extravagant before that time, but the drop was painful. Today we have a much higher level to fall from. A crash from that height will be much more unpleasant. When it happens, the soccer moms sure as hell aren't going to think returning to the Constitution will be the way to go. Nature abhors a vacuum, and those big-assed soccer moms will rally behind whoever convinces them that they can get them back their SUV's, 2500 square foot houses in the suburbs filled with abundant trinkets...no matter what the cost is to them, their neighbors or the rest of the country.
However, although it is necessary to identify the flaws in the Consitution, and to develop ideas on how to fix them, such is not sufficient. The worst problem we've had hasn't been the flaws in the Constition, but rather the flaws in our society, in or schools, in our families and in our selves. No Constitution can remedy apathy, ignorance, indifference and willful disregard of the principles of right and wrong.
"Shit, Earl....you shot Ted Hollister!"
#39. To: mirage, Red Jones, Deacon Benjamin, Phaedrus (#31)
Something from a man who knows where he stands "I am only one, but I am one. I cannot do everything, but I can do something. And because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do the something that I can do. What I can do, I should do. And what I should do, by the grace of God, I will do." - Edward Everett Hale
The Iraq War is an unconstitutional, unjustifiable conflict devouring innocent lives and abetting the growth of an increasingly lawless leviathan state. It must be ended -- now.
#40. To: Red Jones (#35)
Sticks and stones, my friend.
#41. To: mirage (#40)
you're an idiot Mirage. First you bad-mouth bible believers. Then you say you're a liberal catholic. Then you say you don't know what a liberal catholic is. Then you explain to me what a liberal catholic is. Then you make this accusation above to me. I pegged you a long time ago. You talk round and round with flowery words. and have no understanding. but merry christmas anyway.
So, given all that, what is the excuse for not trying to come up with a workable solution?
#42. To: Red Jones (#28)
I presume you meant to capitalize "God", but that's neither here nor there. Do you mean the perfectly just "God" who killed 70,000 innocent people to punish David because he was tempted by the devil to take a census? Or who made a gentleman's wager with the same devil to test the fortitude of his faithful servant Job, and inflicted inordinate misery in the process? The "God" of perfect compassion who closed the wombs of all of the women of the house of Abimelech because Abraham deluded him regarding his wife, Sarah? The "God" who believed other gods (particularly of Egypt) lived, necromancy is possible or slavery is a legitimate institution? The "God" who calls human art corruption on account of his own insecurities. (Deut 4:16) The "God" who savors burnt offerings, blood-smeared altars and enjoys the death of every living thing in towns that are at odds with "his people"? The "God" that prescribes bathing a pigeon in anothers blood, or slaying assorted animals for various transgressions? The "God" who was ready to destroy even his own people when they worshiped a false idol until Moses reminded him that he in fact has a covenant to uphold? The "God" who endowed man with free will, then got pissed and killed most of them in a worldwide flood for exercising said will? The "God" who would eternally burn the vast majority of all souls ever created because of the faults of short and sometimes tortured lives? This tyrant, worse than the villians of other religions has an interest in redeeming anything? And would offer his son for that purpose? This monster should judge me? I ain't buying.
We must be ruled by god if we are to prosper, or even if we are to live.
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#43. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)
at the top you asked me which god I meant. I mean the god who spoke and with his words brought into existence all creation. I mean the god who is described as the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. but let me try to respond to other responses of yours one by one, as best I can in next post.
#44. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)
Or who made a gentleman's wager with the same devil to test the fortitude of his faithful servant Job, and inflicted inordinate misery in the process? The "God" of perfect compassion who closed the wombs of all of the women of the house of Abimelech because Abraham deluded him regarding his wife, Sarah? god has brought down many people and done many things to them that were unpleasant. This is true. he uses every nation for his purposes not for ours'. our understanding of his purposes is not very good, we are limited in that capacity. But he has no problem understanding us completely and far better than we understand ourselves. history unfolds for the sake of teaching the people who god is and proper attitude we should have towards him. and to test us as individuals so that god can judge us when the appointed time comes. Many people die in this process and it perplexes us greatly. I wish I knew in the bible where it counsels us about death. God laughs at our deaths in this world. For he can restore us and he tells us not to fear this death. We fear this death and he laughs at us for it. But after death there is a judgement. and this judgement in the negative is like a second death. and god says this second death is what we should fear.
Do you mean the perfectly just "God" who killed 70,000 innocent people to punish David because he was tempted by the devil to take a census?
#45. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)
there are many spirits and there are fallen angels as well. there are others besides the one true god with power. If you read Moses' dealings with pharoah in egypt it is obvious that pharoah's preachers could exercise powers and work what we'd call miracles. But who was the more powerful god in those contests. The one true god who is above all others played with the egyptians. he showed them he was the powerful one by comparison. He taught them this and they recognized this. Then he put it into their hearts to still persecute the israelites even though they knew that the one true god was on their side. even after it was clearly demonstrated to them that they were going to be harmed very severely by persecuting the israelites, they still did this. and then they chased after the israelites and tried to kill them, this was even after many miracles were worked by god to protect the israelites. and then when it looked like the israelites would all be slaughtered by this powerful army god worked more miracles. He opened the river up by making the water stand up like a wall and dried out the bed of the river so the israelites could walk across. they were trapped next to the river ready to die it seemed and then god opened the river up and let them walk across the dry river bed. and when they got to the other side they turned and looked and they saw the egyptian army with the pharoah on that dry river bed and then the wall of water let loose and then these pursuers were all killed. that's right. god plotted and planned their deaths. these egyptians learned that god was god, they learned that this god was more powerful than their gods, they recognized this and they knew it was in their interest to let these israelites go. and then god himself put it in their hearts to try to kill the israelites again. and when they tried god killed them. he did this to teach the israelites who was god. that is why he did it. he did not do it for your comfort or for your bank account or for your pleasure. he did it for his glory. as far as necromancy goes, I don't know what that word means. as far as slavery goes, slavery was once a common institution. and when it was common in old testament days and in the days of jesus god did not think so badly of it. he spoke at length in the bible of a master's responsibilities to his slaves and likewise a slave's responsibilities to his master. he actually said in the bible that when you are a slave you should assume you are put in that position by god and to serve your master. many of the individuals who actually wrote the bible actually were slaves. it seems they didn't have such a money-based market economy as we have today and slavery was a convenient way for people to get by. But I am only telling you obvious things about history with regard to this slavery. Many (like that Mirage naysayer) think that if you believe in the bible then you think slavery is good. this is false. slavery was once a fact of life. In the times when the bible was written there were many skilled craftsmen such as doctors who lived very comfortable and relatively prosperous lives but were slaves. The real poverty in those days was for people who were outside of any established and self-sustaining household and had nothing. there was massive poverty in those days. people lived short lives. but the one true god is a spirit and more powerful than any of these other spirits.
The "God" who believed other gods (particularly of Egypt) lived, necromancy is possible or slavery is a legitimate institution?
#46. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)
yes, that's correct. human art is corruption generally, unless inspried by god. nothing good comes from the people. that is true and that is god's view. we people might think different. but we do need to learn god's view, because it is true and we are corrupt.
The "God" who calls human art corruption on account of his own insecurities. (Deut 4:16)
#47. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)
The "God" that prescribes bathing a pigeon in anothers blood, or slaying assorted animals for various transgressions? in the old testament it drones on and on and on and on for hundreds and hundreds of pages it seems about special ceremonies god gave to the israelites to perform. he gave very meticulous instructions. and he told them exactly who was to perform what among them. and when they fell away from these things he did sometimes kill the offenders, just like that. he liked blood sacrifices, that is true. and for different transgressions he recommended slaughtering different animals. that is true. and this same god gave the israelites great prosperity as well. he empowered them to kill their enemies. all so they could know that he is god. this was to create the desired atmosphere and to teach the jews, in preparation for jesus' coming here. this was next phase. It goes in phases. we need to pay attention to these phases or seasons. that's why I tell people we are in the season of the end-times now. because jesus will return. judgement will occur. his kingdom will be buil there on earth. the people will be separated. only those who love god and do his work will be admitted into the kingdom of god. The rest will be barred. these special ceremonies you mention, this was part of what god gave the jews and was called 'the law'. when jesus came he was the fulfillment of the law. and was here to show the whole world the blessings of god. and these blessings were no longer given for following these precise instructions he gave. but to all, not just the jews and to those who believe in him.
The "God" who savors burnt offerings, blood-smeared altars and enjoys the death of every living thing in towns that are at odds with "his people"?
#48. To: Red Jones (#46)
well, I've read and heard much BS, and if you wan't to adhere to your expressed beliefs, well, go for it. I'm not joining. I hope that you aren't expecting others to join you.
god's view
Another Mogambo Day
#49. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)
The "God" who endowed man with free will, then got pissed and killed most of them in a worldwide flood for exercising said will? yes, exactly. that is the god I am talking about. for a people like the jews of ancient times or I believe they were called hebrews in those days. I've used the term israelites, I'm not sure that's accurate. for this people the jews who were chosen of god in those days as you say it is a bit dangerous to be so chosen. Because if you turn from him or fail to put forth the actions expected of you, then you can inspire wrath. and that wrath is furious. that is exactly correct.
The "God" who was ready to destroy even his own people when they worshiped a false idol until Moses reminded him that he in fact has a covenant to uphold?
#50. To: rack42 (#48)
the fellow named Dude asked me questions. I am merely responding. I'm not expecting anything of you. do you ever want to express joy and happiness over the god that made you?
I hope that you aren't expecting others to join you.
#51. To: Red Jones (#49)
You've seriously gotten off track from the "point" of the post.
Another Mogambo Day
#52. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)
now I do not believe that it says in the bible that the vast majority will be judged negatively. If it says so, then I'd sure like to know. we do not understand god's judgement so well. God will judge not us. we are all sinners and must be contrite and seek forgiveness. the one true god is a god that forgives. and also you described this negative judgement as 'eternally burn'. there is a spot in the bible (wish I knew where it was) that tells of an evil rich man who had no sympathy for the poor ending up in a spot after death where he felt like he was in a lake of fire. and there's a spot where it says that jesus will throw satan into a lake of fire. but this is only in two spots. In other spots it describes this negative judgement differently. the word 'eternal' is used sometimes. But the phrase 'for a thousand years' is used in other spots to describe the time period for this punishment. It is hard to know the meaning. but god's judgement is always just. and I think it is good.
The "God" who would eternally burn the vast majority of all souls ever created because of the faults of short and sometimes tortured lives?
#53. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)
I liked reading in the bible that there will be a day when the believers of god will tear down the evil ones who oppose god and bring them right before god and kill them in front of him for his pleasure. I really liked that part.
#54. To: Red Jones (#50)
Non sequitur. I know that you can't handle this logical-linear thinking. Your thinking is magical. Please note that I do not "believe" in the "Big Bang." I do not "belive" in "EVOLUTION." By the same token, I do not "believe" in the "Holy" Bible. All of them are, IMHO, garbage. None pass my "smell test."
do you ever want to express joy and happiness over the god that made you?
Another Mogambo Day
#55. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)
You sound like a hindu idol worshiper. (no offense intended to hindus). the hindus believe you can choose your own god. there is only one god that is worth worshiping, that is above all others and has all power. and yes, that god will judge you. and this should give you cause to fear god. and the fear of god is the beginning of wisdom. and that is what the bible says. Don't blame me. the bible says that people of other faiths who are pious and loyal to their consciences can be judged positively when judgement comes. it does not ridicule other faiths. I'd rather throw my lot in with a pious humble muslim who feared god than an arrogant christian zionist who wants to kill iraqis for jesus. the bible says that god is a spirit, not a denomination or religious sect. the organized religions are ridiculed in the bible.
This tyrant, worse than the villians of other religions has an interest in redeeming anything? And would offer his son for that purpose? This monster should judge me?
#56. To: Dude Lebowski (#42)
that's your choice. here is a bible verse regarding it. Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: this ever-lasting life you can choose freely. god has given us that choice. Remember, god created the world and all in it, we did not. We don't make the rules. he does. if you turn your back on god you will be cut off, lost and confused, your mind will be turned over to evil things. But if you seek him and his face, then events in your life will show you the way of life, everlasting life, that he will give you. it is your choice.
I ain't buying.
#57. To: rack42 (#54)
do you ever want to express joy and happiness over the god that made you? Non sequitur. no, it is a question you dumb ass. I don't even know what non sequitur means.
#58. To: Red Jones (#55)
Red, that is a beautiful sentiment, full of what I feel G-d's desire really is. I sure ain't Pat Robinson and his fellow travellers.
I'd rather throw my lot in with a pious humble muslim who feared god than an arrogant christian zionist who wants to kill iraqis for jesus.
#59. To: rack42 (#54)
life is magical. praise god.
Your thinking is magical.
#60. To: All (#58)
LAtin - "not in sequence", meaning "does not follow".
non sequitur means.
#61. To: rack42 (#54)
All of them are, IMHO, garbage. None pass my "smell test." Your opinion is wrong. God is very real. The Holy Bible is his word. You will know this in the not too distant future. Either before you die, or after, but you will know it soon.
I do not "believe" in the "Holy" Bible.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02]
#62. To: tom007 (#58)
all I did was post that thread called "Luke Chapter 2". and immediately I was attacked, not on that thread, but on this thread for comments I made a long time ago. Someone decided that their tolerance limit was reached when I posted that Luke Chapter 2 stuff. and then all I did was sincerely answer every question & comment I could. and then I was attacked again. I don't mind though. I'm happy about it. I need to read the bible better and study better so that I can answer such questions better. merry christmas.
#63. To: RickyJ (#61)
that is true RickyJ. here's a bible verse. Romans 14:11 For it is written, [As] I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. history will unfold to make this verse true. It will be spectacular.
Either before you die, or after, but you will know it soon
#64. To: rack42, Tom007 (#54)
do you ever want to express joy and happiness over the god that made you? Non sequitur. I know that you can't handle this logical-linear thinking. Your thinking is magical. Please note that I do not "believe" in the "Big Bang." I do not "belive" in "EVOLUTION." By the same token, I do not "believe" in the "Holy" Bible. All of them are, IMHO, garbage. now rack42, since Tom explained to me what that latin word means I can better converse with you on this. I think you're saying it is not logical to praise the one who made us. I may have a magical or mystical side to my thought process, but I have a logical side also. and it is illogical (non sequitor) to think that just because a person can think in a mystical manner that he can't think in a logical manner. but it is very logical to worship the one that made you, especially if he is god and he wants you to worship him and is teaching you to worship him. here's a possible explanation for your failure to be logical on these matters - it comes in a bible verse. Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; you see if you reject god, then your mind will be turned over to illogical thinking, perverted thinking and wrong thinking. that may explain (in a logical sequitor fashion) why you feel it is illogical to worship the one that made you, especially when the one who made you wants you to do this. because I don't follow your logic, it doesn't make sense to me.
#65. To: Red Jones (#44)
god has brought down many people and done many things to them that were unpleasant. Not to be a contrarian, but this couldn't possible be God. Rather is is a literal account of Eastern desert scribes depiction of a God. Every tribe had one or many and in every case they were nationalistic deities and favored only their own, they were great and powerful, fair and just etc. etc. Yahweh is no more realistic than Osiris, Horus or Isis. But you wouldn't think about worshipping them. But he has no problem understanding us completely and far better than we understand ourselves. He only understood what his authors wanted him to understand; the worst characteristics of humanity - envy, avarice, narcissism, irritibility, cruelty. His sensibilities mirror those of the men of the era. He loved gold and precious gems, in fact his kingdom and tabernacle are littered with them. But on the molecular level they are simply condensed energy. Like wood and granite. He understands everything, correct? Except the scientific principles of the world he created. On behalf of Isaiah and Hezekiah he stopped the Earth, which spins at a thousand miles per hour, reversed it's rotation without upsetting anything else, mind you, and set the sundial back 15 degrees (1 hour, I believe). Of course you have no trouble believing that. It's a miracle and God could (and in fact did) it, right? Yet if I told you, and sincerely believed myself there was once a lesser deity named Promethuis who has his heart and liver eaten daily by an eagle only to have it constantly grow back... well that's the variety of miracle you probably laugh off. So it's all subjective, but as I haven't witnessed any such burning bushes, talking donkeys or cheubim myself, I choose to remain skeptical. But after death there is a judgement. This is a subjective claim. I have no doubts that everything that exists in nature is needed. Is there a cosmic need for post-mortem reprisals against the exceedingly naughty. I doubt it. Another possible misconception born of the mind of man. Generally when I argue religion I get the believer to reveal something when he says "Well what if there is a hell". He reveals uncertainty, since no one really knows (even near-death experiences might brain functions). So he acknowledges that it's good to hedge your bets and believe. Well philospohically and spiritually I need more than that and empty promises of bliss in the next life. The slaves and the downtrodden needed a belief in something better the next time around. Now the creed only appeals to vanity. You want your self, your personal property (experiences, personality) to last forever. We know some of this is kept in certain centers of the brain which stays here and rots after death. So when the sea gives up her dead and every once living person is resurrected (Lot's sister mentioned this), do the molecules that comprised them also return? Even after they've long since been recycled into new things and people? Heck, if you believe in miracles, why not? Everything could be a potential miracle if God says so? Pigs could fly if God wanted them to. As for me, it's too unlikely a story. there are many spirits and there are fallen angels as well. there are others besides the one true god with power. Do you see these guys often? Their existence made perfect sense to ignorant people thousands of years ago. Before diseases had causes or names, strokes of bad fortune, severe weather phenomena. It was demons and spirits and spiteful heffalumps. They are no more real than ghosts. as far as slavery goes, slavery was once a common institution. and when it was common in old testament days and in the days of jesus god did not think so badly of it. Interesting. So the age old question of morality. Morality clearly says you can't enslave another. It doesn't matter what was common then. To Yahweh it was immoral to disrespect him. But that isn't nearly as immoral as murder, as we know morality. So where does law come from? From a flawed idea of God. Or did he invent sin which is inordinately more evil than commiting it. Don't go on the original sin tangent because carniverous dinosaurs and pre-human creatures, which are fact, disprove that concept. So God could have set things straight and said, don't enslave your fellow man or don't wage wars of vengance or don't kill in my name as additional commandments. But he didn't. Jesus, in seeing the future could have said, don't torture others on my account but he didn't. In his name an inordinate amount of bodies have been tortured and mental growth stunted. He even said he came not to bring peace, but the sword. To seperate fathers from daughters, etc. Or something to that effect. Sadly, he was correct about that.
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#66. To: Dude Lebowski, Mekons4 (#65)
Existence is a hell we must each crawl out of, always has been always will be. To remake the human condition is to impose tyranny, for people choose to be corrupt, and no amount of coercion shall cleanse them - Dak 1 : 03 am
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#67. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)
as I alluded to earlier - this is controversial in the christian world - whether there is a hell or not. Because something like the popular conception of hell is described in the bible. but briefly and the concept is not well developed in the bible. god's creation is a mystery, and we are purposely kept ignorant of some aspects of it. we are prompted to have faith. the words of the bible that describe things like hell, the after-life, etc., and many other things can be interpreted differently by different people. we are to have faith in what god tells us, not to know everything.
"Well what if there is a hell". He reveals uncertainty, since no one really knows
#68. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)
I don't know the precise answer to that, whether the person's body is restored and made youthful even, etc. But I think likely so. and as you said, if god can create us, then why can't he re-create us? so many think judgement is to occur right after death. I believe there are references in the bible that when you die it is possible to be immediately restored and brought to a kingdom of god that is not on this earth, a place like the popular conception of heaven. and as I said there are also references that a person can be immediately punished too. But there are many references that these people who have died are sleeping. There are far far more references that say judgement will occur at an appointed time at the end of this era of history rather than immediately on death. what will happen is as you say the people who lived throughout time will be restored regardless of when they lived. and then they'll all be judged. we don't know when that will be. But we tend to believe that we are in the season of the end of this era now. but we don't know how long that season will last. The bible does say that to god a thousand years is as a day. God has great patience. Time means little to him. This season can last a long time. The bible says that when this end of this era comes it will come suddenly and by surprise and that no one will expect it when it comes.
So when the sea gives up her dead and every once living person is resurrected (Lot's sister mentioned this), do the molecules that comprised them also return? Even after they've long since been recycled into new things and people? Heck, if you believe in miracles, why not? Everything could be a potential miracle if God says so?
#69. To: Red Jones (#55)
That's beautiful Red, and I wish that everyone who claims to believe in some sort of higher being could grasp that simple concept. It seems to me much of the friction between religios and secular types is caused by a small minority of each fostering ill will. I myself am an athiest, and I've seen athiesm attacked many times here as some sort of monstrous hate-cult, but I assure you I'd never do anything like that. I think everyone (ok, not everyone...) gets too emotional about stuff and blows it, but most people are conditioned to be barking dogs, left and right, protestant and catholic, hindoo and hyena worshipper... The Mainstream Media keeps attacking my beliefs too, saying it's trite to be a fiscal conservative but a social liberal (all the while, I might point out, I'm a boatload more fiscally conservative than they even have cold sweat nightmares about) another belief they insist on stomping on is "not religious, but spiritual", which, granted is a cop-out used by millions of chanting mush-heads, who are prolly getting paid in PTL dollars. Basically what I believe is that there is no congealed god that has a concienscienous of its own, it is an energy that is made of the spirit energy of every living thing.
the bible says that people of other faiths who are pious and loyal to their consciences can be judged positively when judgement comes. it does not ridicule other faiths. I'd rather throw my lot in with a pious humble muslim who feared god than an arrogant christian zionist who wants to kill iraqis for jesus. the bible says that god is a spirit, not a denomination or religious sect. the organized religions are ridiculed in the bible.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#70. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)
that is a very interesting point. I think that popular morality we have today says exactly as you say. But I am under the impression that the bible does not have an absolute condemnation of slavery in it. If I am wrong, I'd like to know. many bible characters that god favored did own slaves. Consider george washington. he owned slaves. Many say they hate him for it. What would you have done if you were in george washington's shoes in 1770 or so when he inherited his father-in-law's slaves. Would you free your slaves in order to meet modern morality's standards? If so, then those slaves would've been destitute, they'd have died young in poverty. In Virginia it was illegal to be black and free at that time. They would've had to leave the state. Where would they go, how would they get by? Far better to let them stay and treat them decently. The slave population on george washington's land did prosper. He had three times the # of slaves he needed to work his land. He refused to sell or trade any of them unless he got written permission from the slave to do so. He never got that permission and never sold or traded any. He sacrificed family money to keep them. he did the right thing. On his death he willed that his family offer free education through college level to all his slaves, and that they be allowed to leave at any time they wanted. The last slave left Washington's land 34 years after he died. The guy was born 7 years after Washington died and had a college education. George Washington did the right thing, but he owned slaves.
Morality clearly says you can't enslave another.
#71. To: Red Jones (#70)
George Washington wan't a bible character, Red. :)
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#72. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)
all depends on what you mean by 'the law'. There is a powerful old testament concept called 'the law'. This is where god gave 'the law' to Moses and he told it to the jews. It says in the bible we should pattern our laws on earth after those laws he gave. I wish we did. We do not though. We have tried to do so at times in our history. This results in just laws. But here on earth man makes laws through the governments he has. But the bible says that god chooses the rulers for all nations. The biblical view is that it is foolish to think that man really rules. If god wants a nation to prosper he will appoint wise rulers. If he wants to perform some other purpose with that nation, then he appoints rulers to that nation who perform those other purposes. Those other purposes could be punishment for that nation or destruction or to be used to destroy yet another nation, or some other purpose. The bible says that god appoints these leaders and then the people follow like sheep. it is a supernatural process. I do not believe that christians should put faith in democracy or democratic republic systems of governments as being of god. these are of man.
So where does law come from?
#73. To: Red Jones (#72)
Victim to burglar: `I want my Bible'
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#74. To: Red Jones (#72)
Jewish law. It's called the Talmud these days.
all depends on what you mean by 'the law'. There is a powerful old testament concept called 'the law'.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#75. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)
Original sin is a concept from the bible. It means that man is fundamentally fallen in nature. Man fundamentally falls short of god's standards. all men (and women) do. I don't see what that has to do with dinosaurs or apes. the bible says that god made all of the creatures and all of the plants too. I have heard it taught from the bible that there were previous eras prior to the era of man. But man is special per the bible. man is made in 'god's image' to use terminology from the bible. I do not wish to disprove that dinosaurs existed because I think that they did exist. and I'll tell you something else - very few believe that the bible says the world is 6,000 years old. That comes (I think) from a recounting of the generations descended from a particular point in time. That point in time is to be the time when the first man was here on earth. Scientific evidence does show that man existed prior to that time (6,000 years ago). I explain this discrepancy by saying that we don't know how to interpret what god was saying. There is a spot in the bible that says it is to be interpreted 'in the spirit'. As I was alluding to earlier, the prompting of us to have faith in the things of god is more important than literal details. he always gives us the choice to believe or not to believe.
Don't go on the original sin tangent because carniverous dinosaurs and pre-human creatures, which are fact, disprove that concept.
#76. To: Red Jones, Dude Lebowski, AKA Stone, Zipporah (#75)
Can't speak for anyone buy my self, but I think A K A Stone is a brain-dead moron for insisting that the Earth is only 400 years old. That's what all dinosaur stuff is about, in my opinion anyway...
Man fundamentally falls short of god's standards. all men (and women) do. I don't see what that has to do with dinosaurs or apes. the bible says that god made all of the creatures and all of the plants too.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#77. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)
the only response I can give you on that is - it is true there's a spot where he says he did not come to bring peace, but the sword. and then there's other spots where he says his ways are non-violent. and it is true that he said he would bring separation of families as you said. look at the very last verse of the old testament - it says to parents they must turn their hearts to their children and children must turn their hearts to parents, or else he will come and smite us. I think his word is so controversial that it will bring violence and division. and I think that his judgement and chastisement of us can involve violence. But that violence interestingly is not perpetrated by god, but by people set up to do that violence by god instead of god.
He even said he came not to bring peace, but the sword. To seperate fathers from daughters, etc.
#78. To: A K A Stone (#77)
4000 I meant, sorry for the confusion.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#79. To: Dude Lebowski, Red Jones (#65)
right on, redemption...
He even said he came not to bring peace, but the sword. To seperate fathers from daughters, etc.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#80. To: Dakmar (#74)
no no no no. 'The law' is given in the first 3-4 books of old testament. this is known in the jewish world as the torah. the first 5 books of the bible are the torah. That is something christians and jews share completely. The talmud came after jesus and was a reaction to jesus. the jews may say that their law is the talmud law. But this is not what the orthodox jews believe. I am under the impression that when orthodox jews talk about 'the law' they are talking of the old testament law handed down by god to moses which does include the ten commandments and much else as well. ignore the talmud is all I can say about that. certainly when christians (and jesus) talk about the law as a religious concept they're talking about the early books of the bible.
Jewish law. It's called the Talmud these days.
#81. To: Dude Lebowski (#65)
I guess some 'christians' in spain & italy about 500-600 years ago were doing some torture. but I would saythese were false believers. we should be repulsed by the torture and degredation of human beings.
In his name an inordinate amount of bodies have been tortured and mental growth stunted
#82. To: Red Jones (#80)
It's more likely these days I'll get arrested for making such a claim...Have you seen David Irving lately?
the jews may say that their law is the talmud law.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#83. To: Dakmar (#82)
who is David Irving?
Have you seen David Irving lately?
#84. To: Red Jones (#81)
You don't think rapture monkeys are stunted? It's prolly those ciggys we made them smoke while roller skating.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#85. To: Red Jones (#83)
bttt
David Irving
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#86. To: Red Jones (#83)
If, instead of seeing faults in others, we look within ourselves, we are loving God. If, instead of robbing others to help ourselves, we rob ourselves to help others, we are loving God. If we suffer in the sufferings of others and feel happy in the happiness of others, we are loving God. If, instead of worrying over our own misfortunes, we think ourselves more fortunate than many many others, we are loving God. If we endure our lot with patience and contentment, accepting it as His Will, we are loving God. If we understand and feel that the greatest act of devotion and worship to God is not to hurt or harm any of His beings, we are loving God. To love God as He ought to be loved, we must live for God and die for God, knowing that the goal of life is to Love God, and find Him as our own self. - Meher Baba
To love God in the most practical way is to love our fellow beings. If we feel for others in the same way as we feel for our own dear ones, we love God.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#87. To: Dakmar (#71)
yes that's true. but I used him as an example. I think there are characters like george washington that god uses for a purpose. And I think he was one and I think our nation likewise is used for a purpose by god. even today. the dominion christians say that the US government is going to violently impose the kingdom of god on earth. This is (IMHO) the 'fallen away' church of the end times for them to think that. It is not of the bible at all. God will allow the world's greatest nation that is oppressing the world to be destroyed completely and utterly. then god will return and build the kingdom of god in his way. that's what the bible says. so I take an unusual and unpopular view that the United States is mixed up with what is referred to as 'babylon' in end times prophecy. and that our nation will be destroyed as a result. Read bible prophecy about babylon's destruction.
George Washington wan't a bible character, Red. :)
#88. To: Red Jones (#80)
Old Covenant matters, completely out of my hands...
I am under the impression that when orthodox jews talk about 'the law' they are talking of the old testament law handed down by god to moses which does include the ten commandments and much else as well.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#89. To: Red Jones (#87)
A slave owner? In the Age of Reason? You go to hell, Red Jones, God liked Jefferson better!
I think there are characters like george washington that god uses for a purpose.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#90. To: Dakmar (#84)
I don't go along with the rapture ideology. Neither do a lot of others. It is controversial. There is language in the bible that describes something exactly like what the rapture proponents describe, a sudden taking of the believers from the earth. But that language is prefaced by the phrase 'as if'. And I think god is just describing the time when the separation of the people will occur. This occurs after great trials, tribulation and trouble; and that is very plainly and explicitly and at great length described in the bible. But rapture ideology people deny this, the suspicion is that they are afraid to look at the trouble coming and fantasize they won't face it. I go along with the conventional christian view (not the rapture view). the rapture view is relatively new, only less than 150 years old. But the bible says very clearly we will not be able to understand the prophecies of the end times until the end times get here. the bible says there will be many false teachers and teachings in those end times. and much deception. Matthew chapter 24 is a good quick summary of the end times from the point of view of a common believer as is told by jesus. But this is only the quick short version spoken by jesus. these prophecies are spoken of at great length in multiple other books, new testament & old testament, especially Daniel and Revelation.
You don't think rapture monkeys are stunted?
#91. To: Red Jones (#90)
Many false teachers, I agree. Follow the freaking money. Messiah pointed to the door, but no one had the guts to leave the temple...
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#92. To: Dakmar (#89)
Jefferson was a lover of women. Women love Jefferson. fiery red hair. passionate lover. when his wife died when he was about 39 or so he went into deep depression, only came out of it a year later because his daughter diligently forced him out of it. then jefferson went on to have other close female relations, including a married woman in france. he wrote poetry of love, etc. women love him. Washington was father of our country, but never fathered a child himself. His wife had about 3 kids from a previous marriage. Women liked washington a lot. But there is no record of him having a lover.
#93. To: Dakmar (#91)
Exactly correct. here is bible verse. 1 Timothy 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. it does not say that sexual lust or unfaithfulness is the root of all evil. It does not say failure to follow either god's law or man's law is hte root of all evil. It says the LOVE OF MONEY is the root of all evil.
Follow the freaking money
#94. To: Red Jones (#93)
I know, I was really poor most of my life.
For the love of money is the root of all evil
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#95. To: Red Jones (#92)
There's a guy that would have ordered the 413 Max Wedge straight from the factory!
Jefferson was a lover of women. Women love Jefferson. fiery red hair. passionate lover.
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#96. To: Dakmar (#76)
400 yo? I've got Roman coins centuries older than that. 4000 yo is what some believe the earth to be. I have problems with that. Real problems, as I live, and hike in Colorado, Utah, NM, and Old Mexico.
A K A Stone is a brain-dead moron for insisting that the Earth is only 400 years old. That's what all dinosaur stuff is about, in my opinion anyway...
#97. To: tom007 (#96)
6000 yr old. I should either go to bed or get in my car and do a smash-and-grab at liquorland. What do you recommend?
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#98. To: Dakmar (#97)
My attorney seems to think the "smash-and grab" is a great idea, therefore, I strongly recommed against it.
6000 yr old. I should either go to bed or get in my car and do a smash-and-grab at liquorland. What do you recommend?
#99. To: tom007 (#98)
You got stuck with stuck-up lawyer too?
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#100. To: Dakmar (#99)
Pretty common occurance, it seems. At least the Doctors usually do not make you sick, on purpose,for their own good. And this is exactly what the legal"profession" does routinely.Remember they control the so called "Law Enforcement".
#101. To: tom007 (#100)
Morrow: You hop aboard my magic carpet and I'll show you sights that you've never seen before. Longfellow Deeds: Well, I'd kinda like to see Grant's tomb and the Statue of Liberty. Morrow: Well, you'll not only see those, but before the evening's half through, you'll be leaning against the Leaning Tower of Pisa, you'll mount Mount Everest, I'll show you the Pyramids and all the little pyramidees, leaping from sphinx to sphinx!
And I'm optimistic. See, I think you can be realistic and optimistic at the same time. I'm optimistic we'll achieve -- I know we won't achieve if we send mixed signals. I know we're not going to achieve our objective if we send mixed signals - gwbush
#102. To: Dakmar (#66)
o, dak, you're so cute. i love you love, chrissy
Existence is a hell we must each crawl out of, always has been always will be. To remake the human condition is to impose tyranny, for people choose to be corrupt, and no amount of coercion shall cleanse them - Dak 1 : 03 am
The Iraq War is an unconstitutional, unjustifiable conflict devouring innocent lives and abetting the growth of an increasingly lawless leviathan state. It must be ended -- now.
#103. To: christine, Dakmar (#102)
i love you love, chrissy Are you wearing a sundress in Tuscon Arizona? My God, your methods of communications are becoming more like others I see. Merry Christmas
o, dak, you're so cute.
BTW, Thank you for a splendid website. I don't post much here because most of all you fine folks say what is on my mind with the exception of Dakmar ... this guy is the evil one; he is evil to the core of his own existence; inspired by Beelzebub, himself.
#104. To: Elliott Jackalope (#13)
In the aggregate, the Constitution is near perfect. It's individuals and coalitions who've compromised it through the years. The common man in particular doesn't have much difficulty in interpreting it, it's all this "penumbral" and pseudo legalistic interpretive bullshit that has screwed us up. The first instance of disbursing the publics money to people in need (IIRC, victims of a fire, and Jefferson said we'd regret it...) began the decline from the standpoint of using guilt and sympathy to manage public funds and sentiment. If you started from scratch with the same constitution and added "NO PUBLIC MONEY FOR SYMPATHY OR CHARITY" (which includes subsidies, et. al.), and went back to corporate charters having a defined expiration time you'd solve 99% of the problems.
Government blows, and that which governs least blows least...
#105. To: Red Jones (#20)
If the public were on their toes at the time, they, or a super secret, anti-secret society society would have had the assasins bullet finding every one of the bankers who pulled that off in 1913 and the subsequent fear of that type of retribution would have kept the meddling elites a hell of a lot more honest. Slowly working incrementalism up on folks until they're effectively slaves results in something just as bad as going out and rounding them up at gunpoint and putting them in bondage, and should be punished 10X more harshly because people are suckers for the soft sell, repeatedly. It's like the fable of the capture and domestication of the wild pigs...
The constitution says that congress is supposed to regulate the creation and management of our money supply. In practice the federal reserve (a private bank) does this, the federal reserve is never even audited, nobody knows what they do; and they just announced that they wouldn't even tell us what the money supply is any more. So, congress has completely capitulated and is not following the cosntitution on this point at all.
Government blows, and that which governs least blows least...
#106. To: buckeroo (#103)
i'm wearing red in austin, texas. :P merry christmas to you, buck.
Are you wearing a sundress in Tuscon Arizona?
The Iraq War is an unconstitutional, unjustifiable conflict devouring innocent lives and abetting the growth of an increasingly lawless leviathan state. It must be ended -- now.
#107. To: Red Jones (#41)
No, I have plenty of understanding. I go where the *data* takes me. That's the whole thing. It is *data driven* purely. I gave you a definition of things. Evidently, that is not good enough. Have fun and with any luck, the new year will bring greater understanding for all.
#108. To: buckeroo (#103)
Merry Christmas Buck, and have a great new year.
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
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