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Title: Would US Have Right of Hot Pursuit in Syria?
Source:
deseretnews.com
URL Source: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/ ... t-of-hot-pursuit-in-Syria.html
Published: Sep 23, 2014
Author: Stephen Braun, Associated Press
Post Date: 2014-09-24 04:06:41 by GreyLmist
Keywords: sovereignty, hot pursuit doctrine, Syria, Iraq
Views: 406
Comments: 18
Summary: Secretary of State John Kerry told senators last week that a "right of hot pursuit" could provide a basis for military forces to move across the border between Iraq and Syria to strike at Islamic State militants. But does Kerry's legal theory — which has little grounding in international law — provide firm precedent for Monday night's massive U.S. airstrikes in Syria and for future military actions? WASHINGTON — Secretary of State John Kerry told senators last week that a "right of hot pursuit" could provide a basis for military forces to move across the border between Iraq and Syria to strike at Islamic State militants. But does Kerry's legal theory — which has little grounding in international law — provide firm precedent for Monday night's massive U.S. airstrikes in Syria and for future military actions? President Barack Obama has said repeatedly in recent days that U.S. troops will advise Iraqi forces but will not be used for combat directly against the Islamic State group. During a hearing last week by the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Kerry said the same, but then unexpectedly explained the hot pursuit doctrine, which had not previously been cited by anyone in the Obama administration to legally justify any part of a new war. "So, Iraq is asking us to help them," Kerry said. "And as a matter of right, if they're being attacked from outside their country, you have a right of hot pursuit. You have a right to be able to attack those people who are attacking you as a matter of self-defense." International law experts said there is a recognized right of hot pursuit to pursue ships escaping in international waters, but there is no clear global legal authority that would allow one nation to violate another nation's border to apprehend an opposing force on land. Even without that precedent, numerous nations have repeatedly taken action across borders — including raids by U.S. troops in recent years pursuing militants from Afghanistan into Pakistan. A State Department spokesman, Jeff Rathke, elaborating on Kerry's comments last week, said Kerry "was referring to self-defense, which includes the right to use necessary and proportionate force to address armed attacks that emanate from another nation, if that nation is unwilling or unable to address the threat." Neither Kerry nor his spokesman identified which military forces, Iraqi or American, might rely on such a legal basis. But Kerry's comments, which came during an exchange last Wednesday with Sen. Ben Cardin, D-Md., closely followed a discussion about the role U.S. and Iraqi forces and an international coalition would play in countering the Islamic State threat. Cardin had asked Kerry how the government should obtain congressional approval for a war that would also "protect us against any lengthy particularly combat involvements in these countries in the future." U.S. forces used fighter jets, bombers and Tomahawk missile strikes against Islamic State targets in northern Syria on Monday, Pentagon officials said. Officials also said Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the United Arab Emirates took part in the airstrikes. Even recognizing that nations have repeatedly invoked their self-interest in striking at opposing forces across borders, legal experts said there is no governing legal code that sanctions a right of hot pursuit on land. Temple University law professor and international law authority Peter J. Spiro said the hot-pursuit doctrine is well-established in criminal law, used to justify U.S. law enforcement pursuit of an armed fugitive across a border or state lines. But that doctrine is "contested when it comes to the use of military force," he said. Spiro added that "without some justification or U.N. National Security Council authorization, any use of force will comprise a violation of Syrian sovereignty." There is clearer authority when it comes to pursuit on the sea. The 1958 Geneva Convention codified authorities' right to pursue and apprehend ships that have violated a nation's laws and have escaped from a country's national waters into international waters. Kerry cited that law in 2008 when, as the incoming chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, he called for the pursuit of pirates onto land in Somalia. The United Nations Security Council later authorized sea-to-land pursuit in Somalia. Even without any clear legal grounding for hot pursuit on land, the U.S. has previously done it when officials believe it's in the national interest. President Woodrow Wilson ordered an expeditionary force of 4,800 troops under Maj. Gen. John J. Pershing to pursue Mexican revolutionary Pancho Villa in 1916 into Mexican territory. U.S. soldiers were sent on raids into Cambodia and Laos during the Vietnam War. And U.S. forces have struck at Taliban militants in Pakistan from positions inside Afghanistan. In March 2007, U.S. Army Lt. Gen. Douglas Lute acknowledged that American troops had crossed from Afghanistan into Pakistan to attack retreating Taliban forces. "If they demonstrate hostile intent — so, for example, if just across the border inside Pakistan we have surveillance systems that detect a Taliban party setting up a rocket system which is obviously pointed west into Afghanistan — we do not have to wait for the rockets to be fired," Lute said at a congressional hearing. [4um Ref.: anticipatory self-defense aka "pre-emptive" strike] "They have demonstrated hostile intent and we can engage them, and by the way, we have." As a Swift Boat commander during the Vietnam War, Kerry practiced a version of hot pursuit on his own, beaching his boat to pursue Vietcong guerrillas firing from land. In one incident, Kerry shot and killed a Vietcong armed with a weapon and was later awarded the Silver Star — even though his superiors had ordered boat commanders not to risk combat on land. Associated Press writer Matthew Lee contributed to this report. Poster Comment: Cross-referencing Post #3 at 4um Title: Obama Launches Naked Aggression on Syria for more info and sources on the issues of hot pursuit and anticipatory self-defense/pre-emptive strike.
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#1. To: All (#0)
(Edited)
Post #1 at 4um Title: "The American fear-mongering machine is about to scare us back into war again" | BBC News: "Isis, Isil or Da'ish [Daesh]? What to call militants in Iraq?", excerpts Post #1 at 4um Title: "Kerry Touts ISIS War, Hypes Iraq ‘Success Story’" - AUMF/Authorization for Use of Military Force issues ABC News: What Is the Khorasan Group, Targeted By US in Syria? - they are “seasoned al Qaeda veterans.” 4um Title: US admits there is a much scarier terrorist group than ISIS [Al "Khorasan" Qaeda] Synopsis of posts at 4um Title: "Obama Launches Naked Aggression on Syria" #5: The Perpetual War for Perpetual War formula seems to be: Destablize nations by inserting agents provocateur to cause internal strife and civil war. Then accuse those haggard nations of not responsibly preventing the misuse of their territory by terrorists and so giving them safe haven. Posture as if it's the duty of America's Military to be on-call forces for the "free world". Assert that D.C. directed violations of Constitutional and International Law in pursuit of war are the new "norms" for US and allies. #7: Cuckoo Strategy - nations suckered to provide their military manpower to fight someone else’s war. #8: the so-called “responsibility to protect” [aka R2P or RtoP] is a thinly- veiled excuse for Western meddling in countries thousands of miles away. It is a UN intended "norm" being marketed as a "customary" law of war but is actually not a legislated international law. Edited the Synopsis section and for spelling. ------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
Pure poopaganda ! Hot pursuit is a laugh, Kerry is a Jewish joke, and I wish I could count to three and snap my fingers to awaken people from accepting ANYTHING that oozes out of D.C.
"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
Good Lord these whack jobs are now extending the local concept of 'hot pursuit' to foreign nationals and nations. Who in their right mind would refer to Obama as their Commander-in-Chief/president?
No kidding ... exigent circumstances. (Unreal). "I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
It very much seems like D.C. "officialdom" has declared independence for themselves from the Constitution like insurgents, yet they act like a Secessionist invasion force authorized by their alien system to annex our Republic, our Military and its arsenals, our Treasury and our nation's Resources. That is not America's legitimate government and anyone who defers to them as such is an accomplice to their aggressions against our real government that is the Constitution. After the Scotland Referendum for Independence was allegedly voted down, an article comment suggested the formations of a Free Scotland and a UK Scotland version. Constitutional America is real America and so it is free to nullify at once all impositions against it by imposters and reject, too, the misusages of our nation's identification as theirs. Edited for punctuation. ------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
My understanding is police "hot pursuit" is only applicable with sovereign county or state lines. If the perp crosses those lines then it is up to that county or state's police to deal with. "Hot pursuit" in Syria implies that the US has sovereign jurisdiction over Syria, something that should disturb everyone. "Hot pursuit" could end up going through a whole swath of countries. Will the US have jurisdiction over them as well? Don't answer that. John Howard says: There are 4 schools of economics: Democrats don't mind war as long as they can have big government. Republicans don't mind big government as long as they can have war. That is their misdirectional trajectory, yes. Multitudes of civilians in this country are probably unaware that Presidents are not their Commander-in-Chief and mistakenly presume that the Presidency is exempt from the Constitution. ------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
"Hot pursuit" could end up going through a whole swath of countries. Will the US have jurisdiction over them as well? Don't answer that. All countries that would like to be bombed on those grounds say, "Aye". *crickets* ------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
There's a whole lot of people who curse Obongo on the one hand and on the other hand cheer on the Air Farce and Naval Jelly pilots who do his bidding by violating their oaths every time they drop a bomb without a declaration of war from Congress. That ol' 'hobgoblin of consistency' keeps rearing it's ugly head, but that's just a bad dream, right? Stick a fork in America, it's done..... #3: info and sources on the issues of hot pursuit and anticipatory self-defense/pre-emptive strike.
#2. To: GreyLmist (#0)
#3. To: GreyLmist, 4 (#0)
Secretary of State John Kerry told senators last week that a "right of hot pursuit" could provide a basis for military forces to move across the border between Iraq and Syria to strike at Islamic State militants
#4. To: Jethro Tull (#3)
Good Lord these whack jobs are now extending the local concept of 'hot pursuit' to foreign nationals and nations.
#5. To: noone222 (#2)
(Edited)
I wish I could count to three and snap my fingers to awaken people from accepting ANYTHING that oozes out of D.C.
#6. To: GreyLmist (#0)
Marxism: steal everything
Keynesianism: steal by counterfeiting whenever needed
Chicago school (Milton Friedman): steal by counterfeiting at a steady, predictable rate
Austrians: don't steal
'Wiped off the Map' – The Rumor of the Century
#7. To: Jethro Tull (#3)
Good Lord these whack jobs are now extending the local concept of 'hot pursuit' to foreign nationals and nations.
Who in their right mind would refer to Obama as their Commander-in-Chief/president?
#8. To: PnbC (#6)
My understanding is police "hot pursuit" is only applicable with sovereign county or state lines. If the perp crosses those lines then it is up to that county or state's police to deal with. "Hot pursuit" in Syria implies that the US has sovereign jurisdiction over Syria, something that should disturb everyone.
#9. To: Jethro Tull (#3)
Who in their right mind would refer to Obama as their Commander-in-Chief/president?
-Alex Kurtagic
#10. To: GreyLmist (#0)
Little? Try NONE! But does Kerry's legal theory — which has little grounding in international law
#11. To: Pinguinite (#10)
Little? Try NONE! Thanks for correcting that inaccurate blurb. You're precisely right. But does Kerry's legal theory — which has little grounding in international law
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#12. To: X-15 (#9)
I suspect you've been buzzed by a WWII-vintage squadron of Mirage-type Foo Fighters, sir. Stand to at your best speed, please, then move away from that foe-looking fork in your post and reach for the sky until they're shooed away. Stick a fork in America, it's done.....
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#13. To: GreyLmist (#5)
Couldn't have said it better myself, GL.
#14. To: All (#1)
#10 ...rebels attempting to overthrow a valid government are not what even the UN ventures to codify in terms of a "Right to Protect" Also, arming rebels to overthrow a valid government (as D.C. has done many times for regime change objectives and has recently moved again to do in its ongoing targeting of Syria) is a mockery of the "Right to Protect" principle. #8: the so-called “responsibility to protect” [aka R2P or RtoP] is a thinly- veiled excuse for Western meddling in countries thousands of miles away. It is a UN intended "norm" being marketed as a "customary" law of war but is actually not a legislated international law.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#15. To: PnbC (#6)
Archiving this chart of Foreign fighters in Syria and Iraq, numerous home countries of which are located in Europe: "Hot pursuit" could end up going through a whole swath of countries.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#16. To: Obnoxicated (#13)
Thanks, Ob. Am cross-referencing 2 links here for posts concerning the Golan region background issues involved in the hostilities against Syria: Post #1 at 4um Title: Anti-Assad Extremists and Obama Plan Coordinated Attacks on Syria Post #1 at 4um Title: Reactions to Obama's UN AddressCouldn't have said it better myself, GL.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#17. To: GreyLmist (#14)
American pilots are fighting the very rebels that we armed in the first place. It's all nothing more than mass insanity and mass hypocrisy on parade. I guess Obama needs his 'war' to pad his resume and show everybody that he's some kind of badass on the international stage...... Also, arming rebels to overthrow a valid government (as D.C. has done many times for regime change objectives and has recently moved again to do in its ongoing targeting of Syria) is a mockery of the "Right to Protect" principle.
-Alex Kurtagic
#18. To: X-15 (#17)
Yes it is. : ( American pilots are fighting the very rebels that we armed in the first place. It's all nothing more than mass insanity and mass hypocrisy on parade.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
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