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Title: On Resisting Pope Francis to his Face
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URL Source: http://www.theamericanconservative. ... -his-face-galatians-2-douthat/
Published: Oct 27, 2014
Author: ROD DREHER
Post Date: 2014-10-27 07:22:48 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 910
Comments: 25
Here’s a powerful column by Ross Douthat, in which he says Pope Francis is pushing the Catholic Church to a precipice. Here’s the gist of his piece: But going beyond such a welcome to a kind of celebration of the virtues of nonmarital relationships generally, as the synod document seemed to do, might open a divide between formal teaching and real-world practice that’s too wide to be sustained. And on communion for the remarried, the stakes are not debatable at all. The Catholic Church was willing to lose the kingdom of England, and by extension the entire English-speaking world, over the principle that when a first marriage is valid a second is adulterous, a position rooted in the specific words of Jesus of Nazareth. To change on that issue, no matter how it was couched, would not be development; it would be contradiction and reversal. Such a reversal would put the church on the brink of a precipice. Of course it would be welcomed by some progressive Catholics and hailed by the secular press. But it would leave many of the church’s bishops and theologians in an untenable position, and it would sow confusion among the church’s orthodox adherents — encouraging doubt and defections, apocalypticism and paranoia (remember there is another pope still living!) and eventually even a real schism. Those adherents are, yes, a minority — sometimes a small minority — among self- identified Catholics in the West. But they are the people who have done the most to keep the church vital in an age of institutional decline: who have given their energy and time and money in an era when the church is stained by scandal, who have struggled to raise families and live up to demanding teachings, who have joined the priesthood and religious life in an age when those vocations are not honored as they once were. They have kept the faith amid moral betrayals by their leaders; they do not deserve a theological betrayal. Here’s the bomb Douthat drops: [Theologically orthodox Catholics] can certainly persist in the belief that God protects the church from self-contradiction. But they might want to consider the possibility that they have a role to play, and that this pope may be preserved from error only if the church itself resists him. Call it the Galatians 2 Option. Here is St. Paul: When Cephas [St. Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned. For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? … Read the whole Douthat column. The point he raises is necessary but incendiary: that the Catholic faith is not Catholic without the Pope, but it is also not what the Pope says it is. That being the case, it is conceivable that those who want to be faithful to the Truth must stand up to the Pope — even to his face. UPDATE: The traditionalist Catholic priest Father Richard Cipolla explains why the pope’s behavior in the Synod is such a big deal. Excerpts: There are many of us who have been perplexed and upset by what happened at the first session of the Synod on the Family in Rome the last two weeks. Quite apart from the synodal procedure itself which the Bishop of Providence called a Protestant way of doing things, where one votes on the truth, what was most upsetting was the very real attempt to railroad through propositions dealing with divorced and remarried Catholics receiving Communion, and with gay unions, that depart from the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Church throughout her history, which teaching is affirmed as late as the pontificates of St. John Paul II and Benedict XVI and in the Catholic Catechism itself. Amidst this confusion and pain among those who love the Tradition of the Church there is also a sense of euphoria that the necessary two/thirds majority to pass these propositions as the sense of the Synod was not achieved. But, as I have said elsewhere, there remains the fact that over 50 percent of the Cardinals and Bishops at that Synod voted in favor of the propositions which included openness to giving Communion to divorced and remarried Catholics, to affirm positive aspects of cohabitation and civil unions, and to affirm positive elements in gay unions. This should astound us. More: But it is this question that is a denial of truth in matters of morality that lies at the heart of this drive to change the Church’s moral teaching in the name of more merciful pastoral practice. A writer for the Italian version of Huffington Post—I know, that gives one pause—lamented the failure of the Synod to carry out the “October revolution”. And they failed, he says, because they could not find a bridge that would lead from the indissolubility of marriage and the Church’s teaching on those sexual acts that are a part of gay unions to that pastoral practice that would give Holy Communion to divorced and remarried persons and to the affirmation of the goodness present in gay marriage. He laments this deeply because, he says, the Pope gave them the bridge. The Pontifex, the bridge builder in Latin, gave them the bridge, showed them how to get from one to the other, in the form of the question: Who am I to judge? This is the way to affirm doctrine and then adopt a pastoral practice that denies it. And it is the way, except the bridge leads to at best liberal Protestantism or at worst the individualism of secularism.
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#1. To: Ada (#0)
The Vatican is now and always has been an evil fraud and plague upon the world. I was raised a Catholic, was an altar boy when the mass was said in latin, and believe the education given me by the nuns was superior to that available at the public schools in the area where I grew up. There are millions if not billions of good Catholic people, priests and nuns included. It's the Vatican itself that's evil. And now it will become as evil as necessary for Scripture to be fulfilled. "I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
What Scripture are you referring to there? ------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
How can one man purport to speak for God!! Such arrogance, and papal infallibility is not scripturally supported. But this is the basic schism that separates the Roman Catholic Church from the Orthodox Church.
#2. To: noone222 (#1)
There are millions if not billions of good Catholic people, priests and nuns included. It's the Vatican itself that's evil. And now it will become as evil as necessary for Scripture to be fulfilled.
#3. To: Ada (#0)
(Edited)
Pope Francis is pushing the Catholic Church to a precipice
-Alex Kurtagic
#4. To: GreyLmist (#2)
I feel an Excedrin 666 developing and have had a very long day at work. We'll have to have this "spiritual" conversation at another time. What Scripture are you referring to there?
"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
#5. To: noone222 (#4) (Edited)
Ok. Some Migraine Folk Remedies and advice at alternativemedicine.com: >>Try 12 almonds: Because they contain the natural aspirin salicin, almonds can offer headache relief. >>A spoonful of honey: Taken at the first inkling of an impending headache, a tablespoon of raw honey can stop a headache. Take a spoonful, wait a half hour, if it doesn’t work, take another tablespoon with 3 glasses of water. Often times, migraines come on when the greatest stress is over. To avoid this, wind down slowly rather than suddenly. Edited for formatting. We'll have to have this "spiritual" conversation at another time.
I feel an Excedrin 666 developing and have had a very long day at work.
>>Vinegar compress: Soak a washcloth with vinegar and place it in the refrigerator until it’s chilled. Then apply the compress to your forehead, temples, and neck. You can also inhale vinegar for even faster relief. Boil equal parts vinegar and water, pour the mixture into a bowl, and place a towel over the bowl and your head as you inhale the rising steam.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#6. To: GreyLmist (#5) (Edited)
Religious debates are head aches. You of all people shouldn't need me to inform you as to the anti-scriptural positions of the Vatican. EDIT: The Catholic Churches are filled with graven images which defy the 10 Commandments. The Church has their members refer to the priests as "father" which violates scripture. The Vatican itself is overwhelmed with graven images. Saying the rosary is repetitious prayer as is saying 5 hail Marys and 4 our fathers, which violates scripture. Confessing one's sins to a priest violates scripture, and it conditions children to grow up with a guilt complex that Catholicism promotes. Tithes given to the Catholic Church are then reported to the FEDS (all 501(C)(3) churches do this) in violation of scripture. [The Catholic Church actually worships Mary, like goddess worship]. At one time I posted many artist renditions of the Pope granting titles and land to kings. These frescoes were published on the Vatican Website but the lat time I tried to access them they weren't available. They depicted monarchs on bended knee kissing the Pope's ass to get his blessing to rule over the masses and were contracted to pay what's known as "Peter's pence." I have read charters authored by the Pope to sailing ventures wherein the Pope granted authority to a sailing ventures that would allow the taking (even by genocide) of any lands ruled over by "savages" and not a christian prince. The inquisition was carried out by the Catholic Church using torture methods invented by them. The Catholic Church destroyed the scriptures and punished those that tried to make them available for centuries to keep people from reading them so they could be the sole source of godly instruction. You don't need me to write a book detailing the evils of the ROMAN Church as others have done this already. It's my opinion that the Vatican / Pope is "that man behind the curtain" pulling the strings of his puppets around the world but doesn't wish to be seen. Popery is a Babylonian descendant, as are the Ashkenazim Rabbis. I would add that "ALL" organized religions have been corrupted. The scriptures indicate that a man (I think is the Pope) will think to change times and laws. Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. It was the Pope that has changed the sabbath day to SUNday and even days like Easter (Ishtar) and Christmas (winter solstice) are unscriptural, yet celebrated by the churches around the world ... and while the people have the best intentions the church leaders know better or should. I feel an Excedrin 666 developing and have had a very long day at work.
"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
#7. To: noone222 (#6)
Not so. Catholics aren't idol worshippers. It's perplexing to me how the multitudes of similar Protestant imageries throughout centuries of their history seem to suddenly vanish whenever such charges are being aimed at Catholicism, as if all those transponders are reflexively auto-jammed. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image - Wikipedia The English word "idol" in translations of the Bible may represent any of several Hebrew words. In the commandment "You shall not make for yourselves an idol", the word is pesel, indicating something carved or hewn. In subsequent passages, pesel was applied to images of metal and wood, as well as those of stone. The ancient understanding apparently did not conflict with the artistic rendering of created things, and the Bible describes the Tabernacle, and later the Temple, as having tapestries and objects incorporating cherubim, flowers, fruits, trees, and animals.EDIT: The Catholic Churches are filled with graven images which defy the 10 Commandments. [...] The Vatican itself is overwhelmed with graven images.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: [Exodus 20 KJV]
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#8. To: noone222 (#6)
I have read charters authored by the Pope to sailing ventures wherein the Pope granted authority to a sailing ventures that would allow the taking (even by genocide) of any lands ruled over by "savages" and not a christian prince. I could say much the same about Protestantism and its Euro-monarchies in general, the Church of England and the East India Company, modern day imperialism and so on but surely you can spare a commendation for the Vatican on this: Excerpt from the opening article: At one time I posted many artist renditions of the Pope granting titles and land to kings. These frescoes were published on the Vatican Website but the lat time I tried to access them they weren't available. They depicted monarchs on bended knee kissing the Pope's ass to get his blessing to rule over the masses and were contracted to pay what's known as "Peter's pence."
The Catholic Church was willing to lose the kingdom of England, and by extension the entire English-speaking world, over the principle that when a first marriage is valid a second is adulterous, a position rooted in the specific words of Jesus of Nazareth.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#9. To: noone222 (#6)
Why have Priests? Call no man Father, Confession, etc. The Priesthood | Catholics Come Home In Acts 7:1-2, the first Christian martyr, Stephen, referred to the Jewish authorities and elders who were about to stone him as brothers and “fathers,” Call No Man Father? - Catholic Answers In fact, to forbid it would rob the address "Father" of its meaning when applied to God, for there would no longer be any earthly counterpart for the analogy of divine Fatherhood. There are, in fact, so many uses of "father" in the New Testament, that the Fundamentalist interpretation of Matthew 23 (and the objection to Catholics calling priests "father") must be wrong, The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term "teacher," in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Fundamentalists themselves slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people "doctor," for example, medical doctors, as well as professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What they fail to realize is that "doctor" is simply the Latin word for "teacher." Even "Mister" and "Mistress" ("Mrs.") are forms of the word "master," also mentioned by Jesus. [...] Fundamentalists would be just as guilty for using the word "teacher" and "doctor" and "mister" as Catholics for saying "father." But clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of Christ’s words.The Church has their members refer to the priests as "father" which violates scripture.
Some Evangelicals point to the Scripture passage, "Call no man your father?" (Matt 23:9-10) as a reason not to call priests "father." Yet in the same sentence Jesus says, "Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah." Using this passage to claim that we cannot call a priest "father" would mean that we could not call professors at an Evangelical Bible college "instructors."
If you interpret this passage from Matthew 23 as an absolute ban against calling anyone your spiritual father, then there are some problems for you in the rest of Scripture. For example, Jesus, in the story of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16, has the rich man referring to Abraham as “father”
To understand why the charge does not work, one must first understand the use of the word "father" in reference to our earthly fathers.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#10. To: noone222 (#6) (Edited)
No, the Catholic Churxh doesn't worship Mary. It honors her. Yes, it's repetitions help to keep people focused on prayerful contemplation and maybe for a longer timespan than might be likely at other times while going about their daily schedules and such. Edit to add: Can you be more specific, please, about which scripture you believe that violates? [The Catholic Church actually worships Mary, like goddess worship].
Saying the rosary is repetitious prayer as is saying 5 hail Marys and 4 our fathers, which violates scripture.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#11. To: GreyLmist (#10)
Have it your way.
"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
#12. To: noone222 (#6)
I'll address that later when I'm not so rushed. When Protestants left the Church, they decided to leave out some of the Bible in their versions. What's your opinion on that? "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). Jesus didn't require Confessions before Forgiveness but probably not even the Apostles could judge penitance or not as observantly as He did. The scripture about rendering unto Caesar comes to mind here but if you disagree, please clarify. You can see him on TV pretty much any day of the week on the Catholic channel and also at Vatican sevices/events and on his travels -- much more often, I think than most other administrators, secular and religious. Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. It was the Pope that has changed the sabbath day to SUNday and even days like Easter (Ishtar) and Christmas (winter solstice) are unscriptural, yet celebrated by the churches around the world ... and while the people have the best intentions the church leaders know better or should. I'm dismayed you picked that scripture because Russia is being villified lately and recently scrapped Daylight Savings time. I'd like to see that scrapped here too, wouldn't you? The inquisition was carried out by the Catholic Church using torture methods invented by them.
The Catholic Church destroyed the scriptures and punished those that tried to make them available for centuries to keep people from reading them so they could be the sole source of godly instruction.
Confessing one's sins to a priest violates scripture, and it conditions children to grow up with a guilt complex that Catholicism promotes.
Tithes given to the Catholic Church are then reported to the FEDS (all 501(C)(3) churches do this) in violation of scripture.
It's my opinion that the Vatican / Pope is "that man behind the curtain" pulling the strings of his puppets around the world but doesn't wish to be seen. Popery is a Babylonian descendant, as are the Ashkenazim Rabbis.
I would add that "ALL" organized religions have been corrupted. The scriptures indicate that a man (I think is the Pope) will think to change times and laws.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#13. To: noone222 (#1)
Agree. "The Church" itself is an abomination, imo.
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
#14. To: GreyLmist (#10)
5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the 2hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. Edit to add: Can you be more specific, please, about which scripture you believe that violates?
"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
#15. To: GreyLmist (#12)
The scripture about rendering unto Caesar comes to mind here but if you disagree, please clarify. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: Tithes given to the Catholic Church are then reported to the FEDS (all 501(C)(3) churches do this) in violation of scripture.
"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
#16. To: Lod, GreyLMist (#13)
I agree. Today the Church is going with the flow like the Supreme Court did with abortion and slavery, trending towards wider acceptance of things God called abominations. Grey Mist just likes to play devil's advocate ... a role that's a perfect fit. "The Church" itself is an abomination, imo.
"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
#17. To: GreyLmist (#12)
Ha hahahaha .... George H.W. Bush was on Tel Aviv Vision quite often ... so what !!! The Pope has a benevolent public persona but underneath the bullshit robes and miters is a murdering, blood-thirsty vampire that devours men's (and women's) souls. You can see him on TV pretty much any day of the week on the Catholic channel and also at Vatican sevices/events and on his travels -- much more often, I think than most other administrators, secular and religious.
"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
#18. To: GreyLmist (#7) (Edited)
Not so. Catholics aren't idol worshippers. It's perplexing to me how the multitudes of similar Protestant imageries throughout centuries of their history seem to suddenly vanish whenever such charges are being aimed at Catholicism, as if all those transponders are reflexively auto-jammed. To me it looks like you have gone to a website that the church has built to defend against allegations of anti-biblical behaviors conducted by the church. When I was a kid I had to go to church every day. The first thing one sees is Christ hanging dead on a cross. The ritual is to genuflect, make the sign of the cross before entering the pew ... and then sing about how "He Lives" ! Catholics do the Stations of the Cross ... where you go from one image to another of Christ's crucifixion and genuflect before each one. As you pass these images and look around the church you'll see statues of saints and Mary everywhere, and you'll be wearing your St. Christopher medal along with your scapula ... all images that offend scripture. If you were a defense lawyer I think it'd be wise for you to plea bargain for your Catholic Church client as the evidence is overwhelming and guilt is obvious. EDIT: Would you like to discuss sin or INDULGENCES for CASH or Papal indulgences for the Crusaders??? EDIT: The Catholic Churches are filled with graven images which defy the 10 Commandments. [...] The Vatican itself is overwhelmed with graven images.
"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
#19. To: noone222 (#18)
Me at #7: Not so. Catholics aren't idol worshippers. It's perplexing to me how the multitudes of similar Protestant imageries throughout centuries of their history seem to suddenly vanish whenever such charges are being aimed at Catholicism, as if all those transponders are reflexively auto-jammed. You at #18: To me it looks like you have gone to a website that the church has built to defend against allegations of anti-biblical behaviors conducted by the church. Nope. It was the secular site, Wikipedia. Sounds to me like you didn't even see it at all on account of Protestant-tuned transponders auto-jamming reflexively and selectively again, as they oftentimes seemingly do. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image - Wikipedia You at #6: EDIT: The Catholic Churches are filled with graven images which defy the 10 Commandments. [...] The Vatican itself is overwhelmed with graven images.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#20. To: noone222 (#14) (Edited)
You at #14: 5 “And when you pray, you shall not be like the 2hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6 But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7 And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 8 “Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. I can't even think of a time I ever saw someone praying the Rosary on a street corner. Generally, afaik, that's done in quiet solitude (or to the extent that is practical) with few exceptions for like instructive purposes, commemorative occasions or some optional congregational gatherings/prayer meetings. Matthew 6:7 - secular Wikipedia again [Re: part of the Sermon on the Mount] [Eduard] Schweizer presents an alternate view [in "The Good News According to Matthew"]. He does not feel battalogeo is a reference to repetition, but to nonsense. As you know, Catholics also pray too in their very own words and Jesus Himself prayed about three times in regard to one thing: the cup that was before Him and God's will. I thought after explaining the Rosary as prayerful contemplation (not vain nonsense) and something like a rather substantial time-fasting period of spiritual dedication (apart from worldly tasks and such) and you replied Burger Kingly, "Have it your way," that you understood it as so then. How about now? If not, you might as well just be claiming hypocritically that Protestants can say the Our Father repetitively as often as they want, recite the same Grace routinely before meals, exclaim over and over the same words like "Hallelujah! Praise God! Praise the Lord! Amen and Amen!" umpteen times during their church services and however else they choose to pray but Catholics can't. Edited paragraph 1 for punctuation. Me at #10: Edit to add: Can you be more specific, please, about which scripture you believe that [saying the Rosary] violates?
The term translated as "vain repetitions" is battalogein. This word is unknown outside this verse appearing in none of the contemporary literature. It might be linked to the Greek term for babbling, or it might also be derived from the Hebrew batel, vain.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#21. To: noone222 (#18)
No, not unless you want to discuss how quietly the collection plate is passed in Catholic assemblies (except maybe like when Mother Angelica asks on EWTN for the broadcast ministry to be remembered, when possible, between one's gas and electric bills) and the many marketing barrages of Protestants inculcating donations of money and other assets to them as a means of "getting right with God" and so on. What I planned to discuss today was the Inquisition(s). EDIT: Would you like to discuss sin or INDULGENCES for CASH or Papal indulgences for the Crusaders???
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#22. To: noone222 (#15) (Edited)
Me at #12: The scripture about rendering unto Caesar comes to mind here but if you disagree, please clarify. You at #15: 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: Matthew 6:3 - secular Wikipedia the third this day and the second Re: part of the Sermon on the Mount One interpretation, outlined by Hendriksen, is that Jesus is here stating that just as we should avoid seeking the praise of others for our good deeds, we should also avoid self-congratulation for our piety. One should not feel smug about our own goodness, but should rather try to forget our own good deeds. Hendriksen feels this view is supported by Matthew 25:37-39.[1] An alternate view, expressed by Filson, is that this verse is not a condemnation of smugness, but rather of scheming for public praise. Giving should be an automatic action without need to consider the potential rewards. If one spends too much effort pondering giving, one will scheme to have even secret donations made public so that you might be praised. Thus the verse means that right hand should by reflex be generous without the need for mental calculus, and if the mind is avoided so too is the left hand. This view sees this verse simply of a metaphor explaining the rules already laid out in the previous two verse.[2] Fowler agrees with this second interpretation, and believes that Matthew 6:4 bears it out.[3] Lewis takes a third approach, arguing the proverb is a metaphor for secrecy, and that it was earlier used as such by the Stoics. By this interpretation the left hand not knowing what the right is doing is a metaphor for how covert the proper donor should be.[4] Harrington believes that the verse is based on an ancient proverb whose exact meaning is not known. His guess is that it referred to close friendship, and that this verse implies that friends that are even as close as one's left hand should not be made aware of donations.[5] Edited for formatting. You at #6: Tithes given to the Catholic Church are then reported to the FEDS (all 501(C)(3) churches do this) in violation of scripture.
This verse continues the discussion of how one should give to charity.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#23. To: GreyLmist (#22)
What were we talking about the Bible or Wiki ... I'm really done with you.
"I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces.". Étienne de La Boétie
#24. To: noone222 (#18)
Catholics do the Stations of the Cross ... where you go from one image to another of Christ's crucifixion and genuflect before each one. As you pass these images and look around the church you'll see statues of saints and Mary everywhere, and you'll be wearing your St. Christopher medal along with your scapula ... all images that offend scripture. Firstly, Catholics aren't genuflecting to statues or even the cross but out of respectfulness to the Lord and as an expression of penitence. They might be more mindful than others of Jesus having suffered to death on the cross (defintely more mindful, I'd say, than those who should never be consulted on the subject, imo, like some authors of DaVinci Code propaganda whom I recall dubbing "The Three Stooges" as charitably as I could muster once upon a time) but I'm certain I've seen many examples of Protestant depictions about that. Communion is a celebration of His Resurrection and continued ministerings. I don't think that angels were put on the Ark as objects of worship and there are numerous other objects involved in Judaic observances customarily that you'd probably be less apt to consider scriptually offensive than any at all of Catholic Christians, which are faithful-reminders of God's graces and care. When I was a kid I had to go to church every day. The first thing one sees is Christ hanging dead on a cross. The ritual is to genuflect, make the sign of the cross before entering the pew ... and then sing about how "He Lives" !
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#25. To: noone222 (#23)
If you were a defense lawyer I think it'd be wise for you to plea bargain for your Catholic Church client as the evidence is overwhelming and guilt is obvious. I thought we were talking today about the Bible without me using Catholic defense sources, as you'd rather. Of course I must disagree with your second statement above from #18. Re: You at #16 and #17, Wow. : [ I was mistaken that our Christian Bible-Study sessions here were proceeding whatsoever in a mutual spirit of Fellowship, as Protestants tend to call it in their circles. Unless you accidently overdid it on the vinegar suggested remedially at #5 for migraines, I'll have to consider those sourful comments there as reminders to never do that again without inquiring first as to what the level of Anti-Catholic bitters might be in a person's system presently which could possibly react so adversely. Don't think I won't appreciate it if you choose to prosecutorily cease and desist as one of the Protestant Inquisition's merciless accusers against Catholicism, among which there were many historical torturers of Catholics even unto death and even of their own, Puritanically garbed and otherwise. I hope you won't mind too much but I still intend to post some eventually on the Catholic Inquisition(s), for whomever it may concern or just to archive the info where I can find it as needed if nothing else. I will apologize at this time for my apostrophe error at #10, I think it was, and the various other typos made by me in haste yesterday to now. What were we talking about the Bible or Wiki ... I'm really done with you.
You also at #18: To me it looks like you have gone to a website that the church has built to defend against allegations of anti-biblical behaviors conducted by the church.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
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