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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: Forget 'evil' Putin - we are the bloodthirsty warmongers
Source: Daily Mail
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a ... -warmongers.html#ixzz3MlWkqjKN
Published: Dec 23, 2014
Author: Peter Hitchens
Post Date: 2014-12-23 19:51:48 by X-15
Keywords: Russia, Putin
Views: 2095
Comments: 61

This is a time of year for memories, and the ones that keep bothering me are from my childhood, which seemed at the time to be wholly happy and untroubled.

Yet all the adults in my life still dwelt in the shadow of recent war. This was not the glamorous, exciting side of war, but the miserable, fearful and hungry aspect.

My mother, even in middle-class suburban prosperity, couldn’t throw away an eggshell without running her finger round it to get out the last of the white. No butcher dared twice to try to cheat her on the weights.

Haunted all her life by rationing, she would habitually break a chocolate bar into its smallest pieces. She had also been bombed from the air in Liverpool, and had developed a fatalism to cope with the nightly danger of being blown to pieces, shocking to me then and since.

I am now beset by these ingrained memories of shortage and danger because I seem surrounded by people who think that war might be fun. This seems to happen when wartime generations are pushed aside by their children, who need to learn the truth all over again.

It seemed fairly clear to me from her experiences that war had in fact been a miserable affair of fear, hunger, threadbare darned clothes, broken windows and insolent officials. And that was a victory, more or less, though my father (who fought in it) was never sure of that.

Now I seem surrounded by people who actively want a war with Russia, a war we all might lose. They seem to believe that we are living in a real life Lord Of The Rings, in which Moscow is Mordor and Vladimir Putin is Sauron. Some humorous artists in Moscow, who have noticed this, have actually tried to set up a giant Eye of Sauron on a Moscow tower.

We think we are the heroes, setting out with brave hearts to confront the Dark Lord, and free the saintly Ukrainians from his wicked grasp.

This is all the most utter garbage. Since 1989, Moscow, the supposed aggressor, has – without fighting or losing a war – peacefully ceded control over roughly 180 million people, and roughly 700,000 square miles of valuable territory.

The EU (and its military wing, Nato) have in the same period gained control over more than 120 million of those people, and almost 400,000 of those square miles.

Until a year ago, Ukraine remained non-aligned between the two great European powers. But the EU wanted its land, its 48 million people (such a reservoir of cheap labour!) its Black Sea coast, its coal and its wheat.

So first, it spent £300 million (some of it yours) on anti-Russian ‘civil society’ groups in Ukraine.

Then EU and Nato politicians broke all the rules of diplomacy and descended on Kiev to take sides with demonstrators who demanded that Ukraine align itself with the EU.

Imagine how you’d feel if Russian politicians had appeared in Edinburgh in September urging the Scots to vote for independence, or if Russian money had been used to fund pro-independence organisations.

Then a violent crowd (20 police officers died at its hands, according to the UN) drove the elected president from office, in violation of the Ukrainian constitution.

During all this process, Ukraine remained what it had been from the start – horrendously corrupt and dominated by shady oligarchs, pretty much like Russia.

If you didn’t want to take sides in this mess, I wouldn’t at all blame you. But most people seem to be doing so.

There seems to be a genuine appetite for confrontation in Washington, Brussels, London… and Saudi Arabia.

There is a complacent joy abroad about the collapse of the rouble, brought about by the mysterious fall in the world’s oil price.

It’s odd to gloat about this strange development, which is also destroying jobs and business in this country. Why are the Gulf oil states not acting – as they easily could and normally would – to prop up the price of the product that makes them rich?

I do not know, but there’s no doubt that Mr Putin’s Russia has been a major obstacle to the Gulf states’ desire to destroy the Assad government in Syria, and that the USA and Britain have (for reasons I long to know) taken the Gulf’s side in this.

But do we have any idea what we are doing? Ordinary Russians are pretty stoical and have endured horrors unimaginable to most of us, including a currency collapse in 1998 that ruined millions. But until this week they had some hope.

If anyone really is trying to punish the Russian people for being patriotic, by debauching the rouble, I cannot imagine anything more irresponsible. It was the destruction of the German mark in 1922, and the wipeout of the middle class that resulted, which led directly to Hitler.

Stupid, ill-informed people nowadays like to compare Mr Putin with Hitler. I warn them and you that, if we succeed in overthrowing Mr Putin by unleashing hyper-inflation in Russia, we may find out what a Russian Hitler is really like. And that a war in Europe is anything but fun.

So, as it’s almost Christmas, let us sing with some attention that bleakest and yet loveliest of carols, It Came Upon The Midnight Clear, stressing the lines that run ‘Man at war with man hears not the love song which they bring. Oh, hush the noise, ye men of strife, and hear the angels sing’.

Or gloat at your peril over the scenes of panic in Moscow.

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#21. To: X-15 (#20)

Merry!

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-24   15:05:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Hmmmmm (#13)

Great improvement....

Only ten "yous"...

When discussing anything, always remember, "I" points the finger inward, the use of the term "you" is accusatory and points outward.

Excellent way to have an intelligent discussion.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-24   16:09:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Cynicom (#22)

Excellent way to have an intelligent discussion.

Your dishonesty has given me a new reason to live, thank you.
Tick-tock

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-24   17:51:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Hmmmmm (#9) (Edited)

What is the difference in the sound of a Chinese vs a Russian bullet?

I don't recommend shaking boxes of those like maracas to find out but products made in China typically being chintzier than some others, as they are, I suspect they might make a lightly-chinking sound whereas the Russian ones might make more of a heavier toned clankety-clank. I reckon, though, that no whistling bullet on the fly sounds better than this:

It came upon a midnight clear - Tin whistle - YouTube

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-25   0:50:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: GreyLmist (#24)

I reckon, though, that no whistling bullet on the fly sounds better than this:

OMG! Is it possible you've been paying attention AND have a sense of humor.

Seriously, did you read FROM MAJOR JORDAN'S DIARIES from the link I posted to you?

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   1:22:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Hmmmmm (#15)

I really only want to watch tubes of girls dancing and singing.

It Came Upon a Midnight Clear: Sara Groves and Jars of Clay live in Harrisburg 12/21/2008

Sara Groves It Came Upon A Midnight Clear - Sundance version with better sound quality

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-25   1:24:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Hmmmmmm, GreyLmist (#25) (Edited)

Seriously, did you read FROM MAJOR JORDAN'S DIARIES from the link I posted to you?

I'm frankly a'scared of both y'all. Can I have a glass of water?

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2014-12-25   1:28:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: GreyLmist (#24)

That was beautiful once I turned the volume to 0.

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   1:32:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Hmmmmm, GreyLmist, christine (#28) (Edited)

It's a shame I can't just send you kids to your rooms.

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2014-12-25   1:40:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Dakmar (#27)

Merry Christmas Dak, I was looking for something with a little more jiggle if you know what I mean.

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   1:46:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Hmmmmm (#30)

I want to be the girl with the most cake! :)

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2014-12-25   1:55:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Dakmar (#31)

I know you'll find this hard to believe, I missed that WHOLE series. Yeah, right!

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   2:24:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Hmmmmm (#28)

That was beautiful once I turned the volume to 0.

That there was a historic, Celtic penny whistle from the British Isles, I'll have you know. Goes to show that it doesn't take even that much to outwhistle bullets flying around.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-25   2:28:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Cynicom (#22)

You got slam dunked Cynical Old Man.

And Merry Christmas to you.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2014-12-25   2:39:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Dakmar (#31)

You post stupid shit. I tried watching it for a minute or so,

Fred Mertz  posted on  2014-12-25   2:57:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Dakmar, Fred Mertz (#31)

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   3:26:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Dakmar, Hmmmmm (#27) (Edited)

Hmmmmm at #25: Seriously, did you read FROM MAJOR JORDAN'S DIARIES from the link I posted to you?

Me: I don't recall reading a link with that title but couldn't see any text at the calculators link. Have been studying this one and plan to comment there eventually, if either of those are what you were inquiring about.

Dakmar at #29: It's a shame I can't just send you kids to your rooms.

Hmmmmm at #13: TEOTWAWKI, on these matters I have a duty to voice an opinion and or share some facts, with or without your permission.

Me: And I'm still listening for sleigh bells here. [Official NORAD Santa Tracker - Live]

Dakmar at #27: I'm frankly a'scared of both y'all. Can I have a glass of water?

With or without Wings? /s You could check the Clay Jars at #26 for some but be quick about it because God only knows if it would turn into wine or not before you get in the Christmas spirit enough to wait on your ownself instead of asking me to do that.

This is for you, Hmmmmm. See what you can do to write some better lyrics, please:

R.E.M. - It's The End Of The World As We Know It INSTRUMENTAL

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-25   4:40:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: GreyLmist, Dakmar (#37)

I can handle the blackest of the black death metal. I can handle thug rap. I can handle Mozart. I can handle old country & western. I can handle bluegrass. I can handle disco. But I cannot, and will will not be made to listen to REM.

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25   6:05:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Cynicom, Jethro Tull (#22)

Merry Christmas, Cyni & JT!

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25   6:07:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Hmmmmm (#23)

Your dishonesty has given me a new reason to live, thank you. Tick-tock

Good heavens...

One line, two "yous".

Improvement gone bad. Give it another try, patience is a virtue.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-25   7:40:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Deasy (#39)

Thank you and the same.

I am just thankful to be here.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-25   7:42:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Fred Mertz (#34)

Merry Christmas Fred.

Have a toddy for the New Year.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-25   7:48:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Deasy (#38)

I can handle the blackest of the black death metal. I can handle thug rap. I can handle Mozart. I can handle old country & western. I can handle bluegrass. I can handle disco. But I cannot, and will will not be made to listen to REM.

Well then, maybe you'll find this Christmas tune more to your liking. Even Dakmar might, too, since Paul McCartney's in the video:

When Peace Breaks Through (Christmas Time) Beyond R.E.M - lyrics in the Description section

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-25   7:53:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Cynicom (#41)

I am just thankful to be here.

That's a really cheerful response! I'm glad you're here too. Not only that but I'm happy that 4um is still available.

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25   7:56:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Deasy (#44)

That's a really cheerful response!

Well, reality is a stern taskmaster, there is no equivocation.

When the surgeon, sits down beside your bed, you know what is coming is not going to be cheerful.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-25   8:06:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Hmmmmm (#36)

some humans aint human

https://www.youtube.com/v/bio70ZWHj94

https://www.youtube.com/v/dwKcjRD1DNE

Neo TryingtoWarnYou  posted on  2014-12-25   8:06:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Cynicom (#45)

Are you recovering or are you due for surgery, or both?

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25   8:14:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Deasy (#47)

Are you recovering or are you due for surgery, or both?

Neither.

See PM...

Cyni...

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-25   8:24:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Cynicom (#40)

One line, two "yous".

Shhhhhh. I'm writing your obit. It's a doozy
Tick tock.

50% improvement.

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   8:25:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Hmmmmm (#49)

Shhhhhh. I'm writing your obit. It's a doozy

Hum...Get in line it has already been prepared.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-25   8:32:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Cynicom (#50)

it has already been prepared.

Awww shush,it's no bother at all. So far, it has no yous (isn't that great) and no fallacious arguments.
Tick tock

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   8:50:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Hmmmmm (#23)

On a forum this old, we've probably each in turns been unable to change the other's opinions multiple times. There's always a reason it gets one's goat. Insight comes in time.

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25   8:54:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Deasy (#52) (Edited)

Where we have no rules or honest discourse we have anarchy.

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   9:17:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Hmmmmm (#53)

Discourse is free form here, without debating rules. In that sense it's not a contest. In fact, over the years camaraderie has overtaken the urge to debate for many on 4um. Here on the last forum, where many of us came after being threatened with expulsion elsewhere, it could be described as a harbor for libertines. Online anarchy, if you will.

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25   9:35:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Deasy (#54)

Discourse is free form here, without debating rules. In that sense it's not a contest. In fact, over the years camaraderie has overtaken the urge to debate for many on 4um.

Of course I know and embrace that. We shouldn't get so chummy that we allow one of ours to advocate for (a thermonuclear) WWIII unchallenged.

Cyni is playing a lazy cowards game, and honestly that is the best strategy available to him. When challenged he refuses to defend his position, I don't really blame him.

Camaraderie, inclusion ALWAYS has its limits in ANY group, tribe, pack, or herd.

I don't won't to change his mind, I will discredit his idea.

“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele

“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb

“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   10:35:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Hmmmmm (#55)

I probably agree with you more than Cyni on some of your differences, but settling an argument between one of us and the other here on 4um won't change the world. I have massive differences between myself and many others here but I would rather be able to meet everyone on 4 at a tavern and laugh about our disagreements face to face.

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25   11:00:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Dakmar (#43)

Paul McCartney ping for you at #43 because I didn't see that you had vanished from the To: line during construction until after it was posted.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2014-12-25   12:06:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Cynicom (#42)

Have a toddy for the New Year.

Thanks. I will.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2014-12-25   12:23:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Deasy (#56)

...but I would rather be able to meet everyone on 4 at a tavern and laugh about our disagreements face to face.

I'd give you a ride home and dump you in one of the deepest ditches on the way there. Merry Christmas.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2014-12-25   12:26:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Fred Mertz (#59)

Happy new year!

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25   13:01:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Fred Mertz (#35)

You post stupid shit. I tried watching it for a minute or so,

Luv you too, Ferd, enjoy!

corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Dakmar  posted on  2014-12-26   16:29:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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