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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: Forget 'evil' Putin - we are the bloodthirsty warmongers
Source: Daily Mail
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a ... -warmongers.html#ixzz3MlWkqjKN
Published: Dec 23, 2014
Author: Peter Hitchens
Post Date: 2014-12-23 19:51:48 by X-15
Keywords: Russia, Putin
Views: 2131
Comments: 61

This is a time of year for memories, and the ones that keep bothering me are from my childhood, which seemed at the time to be wholly happy and untroubled.

Yet all the adults in my life still dwelt in the shadow of recent war. This was not the glamorous, exciting side of war, but the miserable, fearful and hungry aspect.

My mother, even in middle-class suburban prosperity, couldn’t throw away an eggshell without running her finger round it to get out the last of the white. No butcher dared twice to try to cheat her on the weights.

Haunted all her life by rationing, she would habitually break a chocolate bar into its smallest pieces. She had also been bombed from the air in Liverpool, and had developed a fatalism to cope with the nightly danger of being blown to pieces, shocking to me then and since.

I am now beset by these ingrained memories of shortage and danger because I seem surrounded by people who think that war might be fun. This seems to happen when wartime generations are pushed aside by their children, who need to learn the truth all over again.

It seemed fairly clear to me from her experiences that war had in fact been a miserable affair of fear, hunger, threadbare darned clothes, broken windows and insolent officials. And that was a victory, more or less, though my father (who fought in it) was never sure of that.

Now I seem surrounded by people who actively want a war with Russia, a war we all might lose. They seem to believe that we are living in a real life Lord Of The Rings, in which Moscow is Mordor and Vladimir Putin is Sauron. Some humorous artists in Moscow, who have noticed this, have actually tried to set up a giant Eye of Sauron on a Moscow tower.

We think we are the heroes, setting out with brave hearts to confront the Dark Lord, and free the saintly Ukrainians from his wicked grasp.

This is all the most utter garbage. Since 1989, Moscow, the supposed aggressor, has – without fighting or losing a war – peacefully ceded control over roughly 180 million people, and roughly 700,000 square miles of valuable territory.

The EU (and its military wing, Nato) have in the same period gained control over more than 120 million of those people, and almost 400,000 of those square miles.

Until a year ago, Ukraine remained non-aligned between the two great European powers. But the EU wanted its land, its 48 million people (such a reservoir of cheap labour!) its Black Sea coast, its coal and its wheat.

So first, it spent £300 million (some of it yours) on anti-Russian ‘civil society’ groups in Ukraine.

Then EU and Nato politicians broke all the rules of diplomacy and descended on Kiev to take sides with demonstrators who demanded that Ukraine align itself with the EU.

Imagine how you’d feel if Russian politicians had appeared in Edinburgh in September urging the Scots to vote for independence, or if Russian money had been used to fund pro-independence organisations.

Then a violent crowd (20 police officers died at its hands, according to the UN) drove the elected president from office, in violation of the Ukrainian constitution.

During all this process, Ukraine remained what it had been from the start – horrendously corrupt and dominated by shady oligarchs, pretty much like Russia.

If you didn’t want to take sides in this mess, I wouldn’t at all blame you. But most people seem to be doing so.

There seems to be a genuine appetite for confrontation in Washington, Brussels, London… and Saudi Arabia.

There is a complacent joy abroad about the collapse of the rouble, brought about by the mysterious fall in the world’s oil price.

It’s odd to gloat about this strange development, which is also destroying jobs and business in this country. Why are the Gulf oil states not acting – as they easily could and normally would – to prop up the price of the product that makes them rich?

I do not know, but there’s no doubt that Mr Putin’s Russia has been a major obstacle to the Gulf states’ desire to destroy the Assad government in Syria, and that the USA and Britain have (for reasons I long to know) taken the Gulf’s side in this.

But do we have any idea what we are doing? Ordinary Russians are pretty stoical and have endured horrors unimaginable to most of us, including a currency collapse in 1998 that ruined millions. But until this week they had some hope.

If anyone really is trying to punish the Russian people for being patriotic, by debauching the rouble, I cannot imagine anything more irresponsible. It was the destruction of the German mark in 1922, and the wipeout of the middle class that resulted, which led directly to Hitler.

Stupid, ill-informed people nowadays like to compare Mr Putin with Hitler. I warn them and you that, if we succeed in overthrowing Mr Putin by unleashing hyper-inflation in Russia, we may find out what a Russian Hitler is really like. And that a war in Europe is anything but fun.

So, as it’s almost Christmas, let us sing with some attention that bleakest and yet loveliest of carols, It Came Upon The Midnight Clear, stressing the lines that run ‘Man at war with man hears not the love song which they bring. Oh, hush the noise, ye men of strife, and hear the angels sing’.

Or gloat at your peril over the scenes of panic in Moscow.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 55.

#7. To: X-15 (#0)

I wish I'd written this. I could have if I was more intelligenter.

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-24   0:38:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Hmmmmm (#7)

I wish I'd written this. I could have if I was more intelligenter.

This mind bender was written by someone bent on brain washing the willful.

It is so full of holes it is not worth an effort to even refute.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-24   0:55:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Cynicom (#8)

It is so full of holes it is not worth an effort to even refute.

That's your standard answer when presented with the truth. You should say "Poppycock" and save yourself 54 keystrokes. If you want to lay claim to the wisdom you claim is inherent in age (it's obviously not) you should share it with us for the record so that posterity may benefit long after you're gone.

Is propaganda more effective now than it was 65 years ago?
In the event you get your war do you think the "Duck and Cover" ads will provide sufficient protection to 330 million Americans?
What is the difference in the sound of a Chinese vs a Russian bullet?
Hitchens is writing of the horror from a Brit's perspective, do you have any insight (wisdom) on the Russian people's perspective of that war?
What difference do you see between the western interference and overthrow of the Russian government in 1917 (Isn't that the year you were born?) and the western interference and overthrow of the government of Ukraine in 2014?
Do you believe respect is earned, or should be granted based on a title of nobility, nationality, color of a uniform, race, or age?

These are just some of the things I hope you can share your wisdom on while you can and in the spirit of discourse.

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-24   2:56:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Hmmmmm (#9)

First rule of honest, intelligent debate, known by most people here on 4um.

As soon as any participant descends to a personal attack mode, they are displaying an inferiority complex, whether real or not. This denies any honest discourse.

Example..The response to my post contains the word you or its variation seventeen times. Anyone wishing to carry on a discussion on any matter, must be able do so in a non personal non offensive manner. It works rather well.

If I have enough up time today, I will respond to the original post, point by point.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-24   4:13:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Cynicom (#10)

First rule of honest, intelligent debate, known by most people here on 4um.

As soon as any participant descends to a personal attack mode, they are displaying an inferiority complex, whether real or not. This denies any honest discourse.

Example..The response to my post contains the word you or its variation seventeen times. Anyone wishing to carry on a discussion on any matter, must be able do so in a non personal non offensive manner. It works rather well.

The first rule of debate is being able to defend your positions with facts or reasoning. You do not get to redefine the rules or words in the English language to suit your needs. Your (there it is again) dismissive manner is a sign of ignorance, deceit, or sloth that bars honest discourse by definition. Words have meanings.

I have seldom attacked you beyond inviting you to step into a pile of "wisdom" in deference to your age. My preference would be to let you pontificate unmolested ad infinitum on matters that don't result in TEOTWAWKI, on these matters I have a duty to voice an opinion and or share some facts, with or without your permission.

I have spent my life gleaning tidbits and gems from those with more experience and knowledge than I and will continue to do so given the opportunity.

If a person does not develop wisdom with age, then his or her foolishness is all the more obvious and shameful; old age does not necessarily imply wisdom.

Your best choice in answer to my questions is:
Poppycock!
Poppycock!
Poppycock!
Poppycock!
Poppycock!
Poppycock!

because the alternative would be to take responsibility for your discourse.

I have no desire for a battle or flame war with you but will continue to point out the folly of provoking endless wars and endless lies in support of the Dollar.

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-24   12:26:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Hmmmmm (#13)

Great improvement....

Only ten "yous"...

When discussing anything, always remember, "I" points the finger inward, the use of the term "you" is accusatory and points outward.

Excellent way to have an intelligent discussion.

Cynicom  posted on  2014-12-24   16:09:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Cynicom (#22)

Excellent way to have an intelligent discussion.

Your dishonesty has given me a new reason to live, thank you.
Tick-tock

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-24   17:51:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Hmmmmm (#23)

On a forum this old, we've probably each in turns been unable to change the other's opinions multiple times. There's always a reason it gets one's goat. Insight comes in time.

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25   8:54:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Deasy (#52) (Edited)

Where we have no rules or honest discourse we have anarchy.

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   9:17:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Hmmmmm (#53)

Discourse is free form here, without debating rules. In that sense it's not a contest. In fact, over the years camaraderie has overtaken the urge to debate for many on 4um. Here on the last forum, where many of us came after being threatened with expulsion elsewhere, it could be described as a harbor for libertines. Online anarchy, if you will.

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25   9:35:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Deasy (#54)

Discourse is free form here, without debating rules. In that sense it's not a contest. In fact, over the years camaraderie has overtaken the urge to debate for many on 4um.

Of course I know and embrace that. We shouldn't get so chummy that we allow one of ours to advocate for (a thermonuclear) WWIII unchallenged.

Cyni is playing a lazy cowards game, and honestly that is the best strategy available to him. When challenged he refuses to defend his position, I don't really blame him.

Camaraderie, inclusion ALWAYS has its limits in ANY group, tribe, pack, or herd.

I don't won't to change his mind, I will discredit his idea.

Hmmmmm  posted on  2014-12-25   10:35:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 55.

#56. To: Hmmmmm (#55)

I probably agree with you more than Cyni on some of your differences, but settling an argument between one of us and the other here on 4um won't change the world. I have massive differences between myself and many others here but I would rather be able to meet everyone on 4 at a tavern and laugh about our disagreements face to face.

Deasy  posted on  2014-12-25 11:00:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 55.

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