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Title: Forget 'evil' Putin - we are the bloodthirsty warmongers
Source:
Daily Mail
URL Source: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a ... -warmongers.html#ixzz3MlWkqjKN
Published: Dec 23, 2014
Author: Peter Hitchens
Post Date: 2014-12-23 19:51:48 by X-15
Keywords: Russia, Putin
Views: 2197
Comments: 61
This is a time of year for memories, and the ones that keep bothering me are from my childhood, which seemed at the time to be wholly happy and untroubled. Yet all the adults in my life still dwelt in the shadow of recent war. This was not the glamorous, exciting side of war, but the miserable, fearful and hungry aspect. My mother, even in middle-class suburban prosperity, couldn’t throw away an eggshell without running her finger round it to get out the last of the white. No butcher dared twice to try to cheat her on the weights. Haunted all her life by rationing, she would habitually break a chocolate bar into its smallest pieces. She had also been bombed from the air in Liverpool, and had developed a fatalism to cope with the nightly danger of being blown to pieces, shocking to me then and since. I am now beset by these ingrained memories of shortage and danger because I seem surrounded by people who think that war might be fun. This seems to happen when wartime generations are pushed aside by their children, who need to learn the truth all over again. It seemed fairly clear to me from her experiences that war had in fact been a miserable affair of fear, hunger, threadbare darned clothes, broken windows and insolent officials. And that was a victory, more or less, though my father (who fought in it) was never sure of that. Now I seem surrounded by people who actively want a war with Russia, a war we all might lose. They seem to believe that we are living in a real life Lord Of The Rings, in which Moscow is Mordor and Vladimir Putin is Sauron. Some humorous artists in Moscow, who have noticed this, have actually tried to set up a giant Eye of Sauron on a Moscow tower. We think we are the heroes, setting out with brave hearts to confront the Dark Lord, and free the saintly Ukrainians from his wicked grasp. This is all the most utter garbage. Since 1989, Moscow, the supposed aggressor, has – without fighting or losing a war – peacefully ceded control over roughly 180 million people, and roughly 700,000 square miles of valuable territory. The EU (and its military wing, Nato) have in the same period gained control over more than 120 million of those people, and almost 400,000 of those square miles. Until a year ago, Ukraine remained non-aligned between the two great European powers. But the EU wanted its land, its 48 million people (such a reservoir of cheap labour!) its Black Sea coast, its coal and its wheat. So first, it spent £300 million (some of it yours) on anti-Russian ‘civil society’ groups in Ukraine. Then EU and Nato politicians broke all the rules of diplomacy and descended on Kiev to take sides with demonstrators who demanded that Ukraine align itself with the EU. Imagine how you’d feel if Russian politicians had appeared in Edinburgh in September urging the Scots to vote for independence, or if Russian money had been used to fund pro-independence organisations. Then a violent crowd (20 police officers died at its hands, according to the UN) drove the elected president from office, in violation of the Ukrainian constitution. During all this process, Ukraine remained what it had been from the start – horrendously corrupt and dominated by shady oligarchs, pretty much like Russia. If you didn’t want to take sides in this mess, I wouldn’t at all blame you. But most people seem to be doing so. There seems to be a genuine appetite for confrontation in Washington, Brussels, London… and Saudi Arabia. There is a complacent joy abroad about the collapse of the rouble, brought about by the mysterious fall in the world’s oil price. It’s odd to gloat about this strange development, which is also destroying jobs and business in this country. Why are the Gulf oil states not acting – as they easily could and normally would – to prop up the price of the product that makes them rich? I do not know, but there’s no doubt that Mr Putin’s Russia has been a major obstacle to the Gulf states’ desire to destroy the Assad government in Syria, and that the USA and Britain have (for reasons I long to know) taken the Gulf’s side in this. But do we have any idea what we are doing? Ordinary Russians are pretty stoical and have endured horrors unimaginable to most of us, including a currency collapse in 1998 that ruined millions. But until this week they had some hope. If anyone really is trying to punish the Russian people for being patriotic, by debauching the rouble, I cannot imagine anything more irresponsible. It was the destruction of the German mark in 1922, and the wipeout of the middle class that resulted, which led directly to Hitler. Stupid, ill-informed people nowadays like to compare Mr Putin with Hitler. I warn them and you that, if we succeed in overthrowing Mr Putin by unleashing hyper-inflation in Russia, we may find out what a Russian Hitler is really like. And that a war in Europe is anything but fun. So, as it’s almost Christmas, let us sing with some attention that bleakest and yet loveliest of carols, It Came Upon The Midnight Clear, stressing the lines that run ‘Man at war with man hears not the love song which they bring. Oh, hush the noise, ye men of strife, and hear the angels sing’. Or gloat at your peril over the scenes of panic in Moscow.
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#1. To: Cynicom (#0)
Perhaps you need to read this and rethink your view on things.
We only know that the merchants of war must have more. “The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Jeb, Hillary....they win and We, The People, LOSE.
"The real deal is this: the ‘royalty’ controlling the court, the ones with the power, the ones with the ability to make a difference, with the ability to change our course, the ones who will live in infamy if we pass the tipping points, are the captains of industry, CEOs in fossil fuel companies such as EXXON/Mobil, automobile manufacturers, utilities, all of the leaders who have placed short-term profit above the fate of the planet and the well-being of our children." - James Hansen
#2. To: X-15 (#0)
But do we have any idea what we are doing? Ordinary Russians are pretty stoical and have endured horrors unimaginable to most of us, including a currency collapse in 1998 that ruined millions. But until this week they had some hope.
#3. To: Lod (#2)
the merchants of war must have more
-Alex Kurtagic
#4. To: X-15 (#3)
We the People have been losing since 1913.
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
#5. To: Lod (#2)
History tells us that those who just can't get enough eventually get a belly full. "In 1599, a Spanish governor in early colonial Ecuador suffered this fate. Native Indians of the Jivaro tribe, unscrupulously taxed in their gold trade, attacked the settlement of Logrono and executed the gold hungry governor by pouring molten gold down his throat.1 Pouring hot liquids or metals, such as lead or gold, into the mouth of a victim was a practice used on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean, by the Romans and the Spanish Inquisition among others." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1769869/ We only know that the merchants of war must have more.
"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan
#6. To: randge (#5)
Can we pour burning FRNs down their throats? Prolly tricky, but doable I guess...
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
#7. To: X-15 (#0)
I wish I'd written this. I could have if I was more intelligenter.
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#8. To: Hmmmmm (#7)
This mind bender was written by someone bent on brain washing the willful. It is so full of holes it is not worth an effort to even refute. I wish I'd written this. I could have if I was more intelligenter.
#9. To: Cynicom (#8)
That's your standard answer when presented with the truth. You should say "Poppycock" and save yourself 54 keystrokes. If you want to lay claim to the wisdom you claim is inherent in age (it's obviously not) you should share it with us for the record so that posterity may benefit long after you're gone. Is propaganda more effective now than it was 65 years ago? These are just some of the things I hope you can share your wisdom on while you can and in the spirit of discourse. It is so full of holes it is not worth an effort to even refute.
In the event you get your war do you think the "Duck and Cover" ads will provide sufficient protection to 330 million Americans?
What is the difference in the sound of a Chinese vs a Russian bullet?
Hitchens is writing of the horror from a Brit's perspective, do you have any insight (wisdom) on the Russian people's perspective of that war?
What difference do you see between the western interference and overthrow of the Russian government in 1917 (Isn't that the year you were born?) and the western interference and overthrow of the government of Ukraine in 2014?
Do you believe respect is earned, or should be granted based on a title of nobility, nationality, color of a uniform, race, or age?
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#10. To: Hmmmmm (#9)
First rule of honest, intelligent debate, known by most people here on 4um. As soon as any participant descends to a personal attack mode, they are displaying an inferiority complex, whether real or not. This denies any honest discourse. Example..The response to my post contains the word you or its variation seventeen times. Anyone wishing to carry on a discussion on any matter, must be able do so in a non personal non offensive manner. It works rather well. If I have enough up time today, I will respond to the original post, point by point.
#11. To: X-15 (#0)
It Came Upon a Midnight Clear - Christmas Instrumental as it’s almost Christmas, let us sing with some attention that bleakest and yet loveliest of carols, It Came Upon The Midnight Clear, stressing the lines that run ‘Man at war with man hears not the love song which they bring. Oh, hush the noise, ye men of strife, and hear the angels sing’.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#12. To: GreyLmist (#11)
Thanks Grey.
#13. To: Cynicom (#10)
As soon as any participant descends to a personal attack mode, they are displaying an inferiority complex, whether real or not. This denies any honest discourse. Example..The response to my post contains the word you or its variation seventeen times. Anyone wishing to carry on a discussion on any matter, must be able do so in a non personal non offensive manner. It works rather well. The first rule of debate is being able to defend your positions with facts or reasoning. You do not get to redefine the rules or words in the English language to suit your needs. Your (there it is again) dismissive manner is a sign of ignorance, deceit, or sloth that bars honest discourse by definition. Words have meanings. I have seldom attacked you beyond inviting you to step into a pile of "wisdom" in deference to your age. My preference would be to let you pontificate unmolested ad infinitum on matters that don't result in TEOTWAWKI, on these matters I have a duty to voice an opinion and or share some facts, with or without your permission. I have spent my life gleaning tidbits and gems from those with more experience and knowledge than I and will continue to do so given the opportunity. If a person does not develop wisdom with age, then his or her foolishness is all the more obvious and shameful; old age does not necessarily imply wisdom. Your best choice in answer to my questions is: because the alternative would be to take responsibility for your discourse. I have no desire for a battle or flame war with you but will continue to point out the folly of provoking endless wars and endless lies in support of the Dollar. First rule of honest, intelligent debate, known by most people here on 4um.
Poppycock!
Poppycock!
Poppycock!
Poppycock!
Poppycock!
Poppycock!
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#14. To: Hmmmmm (#13)
Christmas time is a good time to debate, isn't it?
#15. To: Deasy (#14)
Point taken. I really only want to watch tubes of girls dancing and singing.
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#16. To: Deasy (#14)
A time to celebrate the birth of the Prince of Peace.
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#17. To: Hmmmmm (#16)
Without a commitment to the principle of peace, celebrating the "birth" (it wasn't in December) of the prince of peace is just an empty act of self-deception on the part of Americans and other westerners. Which is why Christmas is increasingly humbug to me every year. Spare us the false spirituality of the season. I can imagine Jesus: "Your rejection of my teachings of peace is a sad thing but I'm still stoked that you adulate me as a personality. Merry Christmas"
John Howard says: There are 4 schools of economics:
Marxism: steal everything
Keynesianism: steal by counterfeiting whenever needed
Chicago school (Milton Friedman): steal by counterfeiting at a steady, predictable rate
Austrians: don't steal
Democrats don't mind war as long as they can have big government. Republicans don't mind big government as long as they can have war.
'Wiped off the Map' – The Rumor of the Century
#18. To: PnbC (#17)
Amen! I must talk to Howard about that. Without a commitment to the principle of peace, celebrating the "birth" (it wasn't in December) of the prince of peace is just an empty act of self-deception on the part of Americans and other westerners. Which is why Christmas is increasingly humbug to me every year. Spare us the false spirituality of the season.
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#19. To: Hmmmmm (#16)
I hail Odin on these occasions.
#20. To: Deasy (#19)
Ice giants menacing naughty children with axe-headed sugar canes make for a festive occasion!!
-Alex Kurtagic
#21. To: X-15 (#20)
Merry!
#22. To: Hmmmmm (#13)
Great improvement.... Only ten "yous"... When discussing anything, always remember, "I" points the finger inward, the use of the term "you" is accusatory and points outward. Excellent way to have an intelligent discussion.
#23. To: Cynicom (#22)
Your dishonesty has given me a new reason to live, thank you.Excellent way to have an intelligent discussion.
Tick-tock
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#24. To: Hmmmmm (#9) (Edited)
I don't recommend shaking boxes of those like maracas to find out but products made in China typically being chintzier than some others, as they are, I suspect they might make a lightly-chinking sound whereas the Russian ones might make more of a heavier toned clankety-clank. I reckon, though, that no whistling bullet on the fly sounds better than this: It came upon a midnight clear - Tin whistle - YouTube What is the difference in the sound of a Chinese vs a Russian bullet?
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#25. To: GreyLmist (#24)
OMG! Is it possible you've been paying attention AND have a sense of humor. Seriously, did you read FROM MAJOR JORDAN'S DIARIES from the link I posted to you? I reckon, though, that no whistling bullet on the fly sounds better than this:
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#26. To: Hmmmmm (#15)
It Came Upon a Midnight Clear: Sara Groves and Jars of Clay live in Harrisburg 12/21/2008 Sara Groves It Came Upon A Midnight Clear - Sundance version with better sound quality I really only want to watch tubes of girls dancing and singing.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#27. To: Hmmmmmm, GreyLmist (#25) (Edited)
I'm frankly a'scared of both y'all. Can I have a glass of water?Seriously, did you read FROM MAJOR JORDAN'S DIARIES from the link I posted to you?
corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
#28. To: GreyLmist (#24)
That was beautiful once I turned the volume to 0.
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#29. To: Hmmmmm, GreyLmist, christine (#28) (Edited)
It's a shame I can't just send you kids to your rooms.
corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
#30. To: Dakmar (#27)
Merry Christmas Dak, I was looking for something with a little more jiggle if you know what I mean.
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#31. To: Hmmmmm (#30)
I want to be the girl with the most cake! :)
corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
#32. To: Dakmar (#31)
I know you'll find this hard to believe, I missed that WHOLE series. Yeah, right!
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#33. To: Hmmmmm (#28)
That there was a historic, Celtic penny whistle from the British Isles, I'll have you know. Goes to show that it doesn't take even that much to outwhistle bullets flying around. That was beautiful once I turned the volume to 0.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#34. To: Cynicom (#22)
You got slam dunked Cynical Old Man. And Merry Christmas to you.
#35. To: Dakmar (#31)
You post stupid shit. I tried watching it for a minute or so,
#36. To: Dakmar, Fred Mertz (#31)
“Anti-semitism is a disease–you catch it from Jews”–Edgar J. Steele
“The jew cries out in pain, as he strikes you.”–Polish proverb
“I would like to express my heartfelt apologies for the unfortunate and tasteless quotes I published in my tag lines. I am very sorry and ashamed. I never wanted to offend anyone, or to encroach human rights."- Hmmmmm
#37. To: Dakmar, Hmmmmm (#27) (Edited)
Me: I don't recall reading a link with that title but couldn't see any text at the calculators link. Have been studying this one and plan to comment there eventually, if either of those are what you were inquiring about. Dakmar at #29: It's a shame I can't just send you kids to your rooms. Hmmmmm at #13: TEOTWAWKI, on these matters I have a duty to voice an opinion and or share some facts, with or without your permission. Me: And I'm still listening for sleigh bells here. [Official NORAD Santa Tracker - Live] Dakmar at #27: I'm frankly a'scared of both y'all. Can I have a glass of water? With or without Wings? /s You could check the Clay Jars at #26 for some but be quick about it because God only knows if it would turn into wine or not before you get in the Christmas spirit enough to wait on your ownself instead of asking me to do that. This is for you, Hmmmmm. See what you can do to write some better lyrics, please: R.E.M. - It's The End Of The World As We Know It INSTRUMENTAL Hmmmmm at #25: Seriously, did you read FROM MAJOR JORDAN'S DIARIES from the link I posted to you?
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#38. To: GreyLmist, Dakmar (#37)
I can handle the blackest of the black death metal. I can handle thug rap. I can handle Mozart. I can handle old country & western. I can handle bluegrass. I can handle disco. But I cannot, and will will not be made to listen to REM.
#39. To: Cynicom, Jethro Tull (#22)
Merry Christmas, Cyni & JT!
#40. To: Hmmmmm (#23)
Good heavens... One line, two "yous". Improvement gone bad. Give it another try, patience is a virtue. Your dishonesty has given me a new reason to live, thank you. Tick-tock
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