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Resistance
See other Resistance Articles

Title: What If Putin Doesn’t Back Down?
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.theamericanconservative. ... hat-if-putin-doesnt-back-down/
Published: Feb 4, 2015
Author: SCOTT MCCONNELL
Post Date: 2015-02-04 06:55:28 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 1437
Comments: 75

The Beltway's blind confidence in its ability to break Russia could push Moscow into desperate measures.

What if Vladimir Putin really was tough? What if he would prefer to fight to the death rather than see his country humiliated by the West or his regime collapse into chaos—outcomes he likely regards as equivalent. Is this not possible? There is no shortage of American politicians ready to attribute the most vile traits to Putin: Hillary Clinton, far from America’s most extreme rhetorician, likened him to Hitler. It’s not, of course, a remotely legitimate comparison. But if Putin were one-tenth as reckless as he is commonly depicted, what conclusions ought we to draw?

Leading papers of the Anglosphere are now promoting American plans to escalate the fight against Russia and its Ukraine intervention. Former government officials, polishing up their tough-minded credentials in preparation for their next administration job, recommend we begin major weapons shipments to Ukraine. Are trainers and advisers on how to use them included as well? Strobe Talbott in the Washington Post, Ivo Dalder in the Financial Times, the Washington Post editorial board, other major figures from Clinton-land and the permanent government are all on board for a major roll-out. Their idea is to make Russia pay a higher price in casualties if it continues to intervene on behalf of anti- Kiev rebels in the eastern parts of Ukraine. Mr. Putin “will settle only when the costs of continuing the war are too high” says Dalder. Supplying arms will “raise the costs” to Russia thereby leading to a settlement. Strobe Talbott says the same thing in the Washington Post—”further aggression” must be rendered “so costly” that Putin is deterred. Nowhere in these admonitions is there a suggestion that a negotiated settlement might include a codification of neutral, non-aligned status for Ukraine. The Russian leader who is regularly likened to Hitler is expected apparently to own up to his mistake and allow the country that has countless times served as an invasion route into Russia to be incorporated into NATO.

Here’s a thought experiment—not original to me. I heard it voiced last week at a Washington think tank; it was expressed by a Russian immigrant to America, a man I know to be well informed about the thought processes of Russian leaders. What, so the idea was presented, would happen if the tightening economic sanctions, in conjunction with the collapsing oil prices, really did bring about a crise de régime in Moscow? Faced with hard currency shortages and galloping inflation, would the Putinites say simply, “OK NATO You Win. The Ukraine is Yours”? Or would they contemplate measures that might totally rejuggle the underlying realities?

Take, for instance, the price of oil. It’s low, it’s collapsing. It’s the major source of Russia’s fiscal difficulties. Would it remain low if Israel launched an attack on Iran? The hawkish Israeli foreign minister Avigidor Lieberman was warmly received in Moscow last week. I don’t think Netanyahu would require much in the way of encouragement to launch an attack, and the promise of the backing of one major outside nuclear power might suffice. Or, playing the other side, would the oil price remain depressed if Saudi Arabia’s monarchy—we all know how stable monarchies are—began facing an armed insurgency, potentially targeting its oil rich eastern provinces? Take your pick, the Islamic State or Shi’ites, it’s not hard to find people who need little encouragement to fight the Saudi monarchy. Could Russia accelerate such insurgencies? Surely a desperate enough Russia could try.

Or consider this scenario, the most shocking thing suggested by my Russian emigré interlocutor. Which Baltic country, in the midst of some manufactured crisis between pro- and anti-Russian elements, would be the best place to try out a tactical battlefield nuclear weapon? I can’t imagine such a thing happening—it would certainly be the most alarming event in international politics since what—the Cuban missile crisis? But, to say the least, one such explosion would pretty rapidly put an end to all speculation that Putin and his government are going to meekly comply if we only “raise the cost” to Moscow of intervening in Ukraine.

I’m not a Russia expert, though I’m not really persuaded that Ivo Daalder and Strobe Talbott and company are either. But they, like much of the Washington political class, are convinced that it is their God-given role as elite Americans to manage the world, to bend it to our neoliberal capitalist sense of what the good society is. They are part of the seamless Washington web—the term military-industrial complex hardly seems adequate anymore—whose role it is to continuously expand the range of human activities that are supposedly Washington’s business, our ” vital interests”—invariably presented as what is best for everyone else.

The Ukraine crisis originated, of course, with the efforts of various American and European elites to exploit longstanding historic resentments in that tragic land in order to count up a win for the West, a defeat for Moscow. Billions of dollars were spent laying the groundwork for a coup d’état and popular revolution—the Maidan campaign was a bit of both—and the efforts were successful. Bravo, said everyone. “It’s one for the history books” said our meddling ambassador after last February’s coup. Then Russia responded, and Washington and all the chanceries of Europe were taken aback by the vigor and violence of the response.

So now they plot how to respond to Russia’s reaction. If the West amplifies the pressures just a bit, “raises the price” to Putin for trying to keep NATO out of his backyard, he surely must then submit and bless the transfer of Ukraine into the Western alliance. It’s logical that he would, just as it was logical that the North Vietnamese would submit to Washington’s carefully calibrated escalations of bombing of their homeland. Doesn’t Putin realize that he is up against a superior, more advanced social system?

But what if Putin doesn’t respond as all the think tank warriors say he will, then what? Has anyone thought about that?

Scott McConnell is a TAC founding editor.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 46.

#1. To: Ada (#0)

More dead Ukranians, along the scale of the Holodomor. Cannon fodder to the New World Order, once again.

Deasy  posted on  2015-02-04   9:51:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Deasy (#1)

More dead Ukranians, along the scale of the Holodomor. Cannon fodder to the New World Order, once again.

We need to put things in proper perspective, with consideration of current geo/politics and past history.

In the past, Germany confirmed the olde adage, never involve yourself in a two front war, never, ever. If we do not accept that as a given, even thinking about the situation is a waste of time.

If Poot insists on invasion, either the US backs down or WWIII is on. Nuclear? No.

Russia has always backed away from confrontation, always because they initiated the problem.

There is another geo/political headache that weighs on Poot every day of his life, China. Does he risk war with the west, with two billion Chinese sitting there, on his back doorstep?

Only a fool would move west against White Europe, with billions of yellow people waiting to finish you off. This a close rerun of the thinking of Stalin in 1938-39.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-02-04   10:16:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Cynicom (#2)

In the past, Germany confirmed the olde adage, never involve yourself in a two front war, never, ever. If we do not accept that as a given, even thinking about the situation is a waste of time.

If Poot insists on invasion, either the US backs down or WWIII is on. Nuclear? No.

I'm not sure I would agree with that. Agree on the general two-front war, which Germany never wanted. In fact Hitler is on record, not the propagandized "winners write the history books" record, the other, the real one, as not having wanted war at all and all but on his knees begging the US to avoid one along with Germany.

Here's the thing in this scenario, two things really. Two-front wars are no longer what they meant in the mid or late 20th century. So much is conducted now via unmanned technology, drones, etc., or by air power which includes missiles.

Secondly, China would presumably have to make any ground attack inroads via NE China, but that's very unpopulated as is SE Russia. I don't see that Russia would hesitate to create a nuclear wasteland in that region simply to create an impasse.

I mean who sees China taking adavantage of a Russian war with the US using Ukraine as its surrogate (and maybe NATO) via an exchange of missiles and air attacks? I don't see that.

China has much more to lose than to gain by doing that. JMO

I think that many still operate under the dated delusion that ground troops are what win wars, or at least create them. I don't think that Russia would hesitate for a second if China unleashed millions of troops across that region, to nuke them out there in sparsely populated land.

Lastly, this notion that nukes (tactical) have not been used is also ridiculous. Places like Fallujah are polluted with nuclear waste from us, the US troops. Even our troops have and continue to suffer from related even if unknown ailments as a direct result.

The next step is simply larger tactical nukes, that's all.

Otherwise, it's madness. What, will we not stop until the entire world is involved in war?

It's unfortunate, but IMO the only way in which Americans are going to learn is the hard way. As a nation we will keep pushing and pushing until some country out of desperation wreaks havoc on us from afar whether it be nuclear or other. Then Americans will be screaming bloody murder. Perhaps at that time the new chant will become we're all Palestinians now! I doubt it, but no one's going to get it until such a time.

As it is now the police in this country are far more a threat to the average American, death wise that is, not merely politically, than terrorism of any sort. Yet, the same people hell bent, literally, on pursuing terrorists while simultaneously supporting something that has thousands of times the likelihood of killing them or their family members than terrorism.

Talk about idiocy.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-04   14:28:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Katniss (#7)

Secondly, China would presumably have to make any ground attack inroads via NE China, but that's very unpopulated as is SE Russia.

Excellent considered thinking. I like and appreciate that.

Historic issues you may be too young to recall.

Much 0f Eastern Russia belongs to China, including Vladivostok, their only warm water port on the Pacific. Russia seized that part of China just as they are doing now, by bluff, and intimidation of a weaker country.

Second...There are untold millions of Chinese in Eastern Russia, some legal, most illegal. In many parts they outnumber the Russians. Poot knows that this is a cancer, just waiting to erupt. There is an area where Korea,Russia and China all have a common boundary. Pull up photos of the area. Worth a thousand words.

Third...Russia as a white race, knows full well that in case of land war, it will be Asians against whites, with Western Europe and US their only possible allies.

If the US backs down, Poot will know he has no ally in the West. Our military understands that if we leave Asia, write it off, Poot will be all alone among billions of people that do not like them.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-02-04   16:38:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Cynicom (#8)

Second...There are untold millions of Chinese in Eastern Russia, some legal, most illegal. In many parts they outnumber the Russians.

Well, apart from ignoring the central points of what I wrote, what you say there merely reinforces my points.

It wouldn't take much to create a nuclear laden zone through which no human could or should pass through without great risks. One has to think that populated by the "enemy" is as good as unpopulated, even better than sparsely populated with your own people.

Sorry, but no matter how it's sliced, I simply don't see a huge troop assault by the Chinese into Russia anymore than I see one with the Chinese on our soil despite the alarmist websites to that effect.

Russia isn't about to let itself be overrun by Chinese boots given a wealth of options, sorry, just won't happen.

"Boots on the ground"/troops still have a role, but it's diminishing. The only reason why we get away with it is because we only do it in countries that have neither the training nor technology to deal with it and are terminally overmatched apart from passion, which clearly is worth quite a bit.

China does not have such a technichological advantage over Russia, not by a longshot. We don't even have one over China or Russia.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-04   19:44:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Katniss (#14)

Sorry, but no matter how it's sliced, I simply don't see a huge troop assault by the Chinese into Russia

Total agreement...at present time and present circumstances.

Back to two front war...

Suppose Russia and the west come to arms, over Ukraine or whatever.

Hark back to 1939, Stalin knew Hitler was coming, he did not know when. He defeated the Japanese in Mongolia, signed a peace treaty, immediately denuded Eastern Russia to fight the Germans. The Japanese wanted no more Asia land war, so they turned South on us. They had a treaty with Japan, China was weak, so was the US. They struck South.

Russia has a large portion of China. Would they hazard a fight with NATO, denude the East of military.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-02-04   20:01:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Cynicom (#16)

What?

Not sure you're making much sense here.

Otherwise, yes, hearken back to 1939, back then tanks/armor were key in blitzkrieg and land war. Air power was huge too, but today it's far more air power and long-range and unmanned aerial weaponry that would be the deciding factor in something like that.

Still, if Germany had had the ability to turn Belarus and Ukraine into a nuclear waste zone in order to prevent the advance of Russian troops, you don't think they'd have done so?

The point is that that ability is there today and without killing the numbers of people that it would have required killing back then, at least in the region we're talking about.

Not to mention Cyni, have you even looked at and considered the topography in that region hindering troop movement from China to Russia? It's worse than it is in Afghanistan. You don't just march a million troops up, over, or around that without exposing them to slaughter via weapons of mass human destruction.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-04   20:17:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Katniss (#17)

Please distinguish between massive land war and nuclear war.

They are totally different.

For instance, China invaded Korea, MacArthur wanted to use nuclear in fashion you wrote of. Truman said no, so millions died in yet another land war. Later a near rerun in South Vietnam. NO nuclear, just long killing land war.

No one wants a nuclear war, however some may indeed chance another land war in Asia or even Europe.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-02-04   20:25:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Cynicom (#18) (Edited)

Look Cyni, no disrespect intended here, but you've gotta hone your reading comprehension skills if we're going to conduct a mini-debate here.

Go reread it all, maybe it'll clear up for you the second (or third or fourth ...) time through. I'm just spinning my wheels with you here otherwise. It's a waste of both of our time.

I cannot imagine that Russia is even remotely worried about China attacking them via foot-soldier. There are much easier ways for China to commit mass suicide for their troops.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-04   21:14:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Katniss (#19)

hone your reading comprehension skills if we're going to conduct a mini-debate here.

Your choice, I will refrain from posting to you.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-02-04   21:19:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Cynicom (#20) (Edited)

Seriously Cyni, I wasn't saying it out of spite or facetiousness at all. I was being objective. Again, no disrespect intended, but you take just about everything that I pointed out and either ignore it or put it in some other context altogether. Makes it difficult tho I may try.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-04   21:30:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Katniss (#21) (Edited)

I pointed out and either ignore it or put it in some other context altogether. Makes it difficult tho I may try.

Zbigiew Brzezinski's analysis may be close to Cyni's. There's Realpolitik and there's how you and I would do things out of a particular ideology. I think Realpolitik is one of the enemies of Mankind in the long run. I think Hitler thought so, too.

Deasy  posted on  2015-02-05   1:04:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Deasy (#25)

Well then IMO Brezinski's living in the past too.

I simply don't see how some enormous number of Chinese troops are going to march through the huge mountains in a rural area that could easily be made completely impassible rather than just extremely difficult to pass through, what, three, four, or five thousand miles just to get to some strategically relevant geography?

Not seeing it.

Just because these guys are in high positions, doesn't mean that they're any brighter or more intelligent, much less more astute or possessive of common sense. In fact, most operate from completely flawed establishment information baselines. Just look at our country's take on Afghanistan and the end result that the world's most powerful and technologically advanced military could not conquer it.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-05   4:31:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Katniss (#35)

Not seeing it [huge numbers of Chinese troops crossing into Russia]

Imagine stealth-based paratroop transports... It could happen.

Just because these guys are in high positions, doesn't mean that they're any brighter or more intelligent, much less more astute or possessive of common sense.
This is the problem: they really are smart. But that makes them overconfident and self-righteous. Moral superiority is a dangerous excuse because it's probably an artificial construct in their minds. Consider napalm as used on Dresden at the end of the war, for no good reason. Yet Germans were hung for collective punishment.
Just look at our country's take on Afghanistan and the end result that the world's most powerful and technologically advanced military could not conquer it.
Yes, entering Afghanistan was a fool's errand, and if the 9/11 story has anything to do with bin Laden, our earlier involvement in fighting the Soviets via proxy taught him how to bring empires down. I sometimes wonder if the Russians or even the Chinese returned the favor to the Islamists in the region as a means for revenge.

The Zbig camp is done with Afghanistan AFAIK. There's a difference between him and the NeoCons as led by the PNAC think tank.

Oddly enough both PNAC and the Zbig schools appear to be happy to work with Islamists.

Deasy  posted on  2015-02-05   10:22:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Deasy (#38)

Yes, entering Afghanistan was a fool's errand, and if the 9/11 story has anything to do with bin Laden, our earlier involvement in fighting the Soviets via proxy taught him how to bring empires down.

Agreed. I see absolutely no difference, in fact even a bigger fool's errand, the Chinese launching a ground war under even more adversarial conditions and circumstances.

This is the problem: they really are smart.

Some are, some aren't. I'd say that they are almost all categorically cunning, but that doesn't necessarily equate to intelligent. They certainly lack morality and wisdom, but then so does the vast majority of the population of the US at large.

Oddly enough both PNAC and the Zbig schools appear to be happy to work with Islamists.

LOL, yeah, funny that, isn't it.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-05   11:39:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 46.

#49. To: Katniss (#46)

They certainly lack morality and wisdom, but then so does the vast majority of the population of the US at large.

I believe that morality is a relative thing. If it's universal, global government might make sense. But every culture has its own unique assets and liabilities. The depleted uranium and phosphorous shells come after concluding that we're more ethical than "they" are.

Like I said earlier, if you and I were running foreign policy, we would speak softly at home only to our domestic citizenry consulting them about their domestic security preferences such as borders and industrial safety, and almost never speak internationally unless there were both a secular domestic benefit and a consensus from the foreign countries requesting our help. We would be carrying a right-sized defensive stick. We would never form alliances with any country on the entire planet, including Canada and Mexico.

I would be advocating research to keep up with foreign weapons systems but think of the USA as our castle and make sure that no one could even consider attacking us militarily. Missile defense would be one way to do that. Caution on immigration would be another.

Deasy  posted on  2015-02-05 11:52:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 46.

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