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Resistance
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Title: What If Putin Doesn’t Back Down?
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.theamericanconservative. ... hat-if-putin-doesnt-back-down/
Published: Feb 4, 2015
Author: SCOTT MCCONNELL
Post Date: 2015-02-04 06:55:28 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 1463
Comments: 75

The Beltway's blind confidence in its ability to break Russia could push Moscow into desperate measures.

What if Vladimir Putin really was tough? What if he would prefer to fight to the death rather than see his country humiliated by the West or his regime collapse into chaos—outcomes he likely regards as equivalent. Is this not possible? There is no shortage of American politicians ready to attribute the most vile traits to Putin: Hillary Clinton, far from America’s most extreme rhetorician, likened him to Hitler. It’s not, of course, a remotely legitimate comparison. But if Putin were one-tenth as reckless as he is commonly depicted, what conclusions ought we to draw?

Leading papers of the Anglosphere are now promoting American plans to escalate the fight against Russia and its Ukraine intervention. Former government officials, polishing up their tough-minded credentials in preparation for their next administration job, recommend we begin major weapons shipments to Ukraine. Are trainers and advisers on how to use them included as well? Strobe Talbott in the Washington Post, Ivo Dalder in the Financial Times, the Washington Post editorial board, other major figures from Clinton-land and the permanent government are all on board for a major roll-out. Their idea is to make Russia pay a higher price in casualties if it continues to intervene on behalf of anti- Kiev rebels in the eastern parts of Ukraine. Mr. Putin “will settle only when the costs of continuing the war are too high” says Dalder. Supplying arms will “raise the costs” to Russia thereby leading to a settlement. Strobe Talbott says the same thing in the Washington Post—”further aggression” must be rendered “so costly” that Putin is deterred. Nowhere in these admonitions is there a suggestion that a negotiated settlement might include a codification of neutral, non-aligned status for Ukraine. The Russian leader who is regularly likened to Hitler is expected apparently to own up to his mistake and allow the country that has countless times served as an invasion route into Russia to be incorporated into NATO.

Here’s a thought experiment—not original to me. I heard it voiced last week at a Washington think tank; it was expressed by a Russian immigrant to America, a man I know to be well informed about the thought processes of Russian leaders. What, so the idea was presented, would happen if the tightening economic sanctions, in conjunction with the collapsing oil prices, really did bring about a crise de régime in Moscow? Faced with hard currency shortages and galloping inflation, would the Putinites say simply, “OK NATO You Win. The Ukraine is Yours”? Or would they contemplate measures that might totally rejuggle the underlying realities?

Take, for instance, the price of oil. It’s low, it’s collapsing. It’s the major source of Russia’s fiscal difficulties. Would it remain low if Israel launched an attack on Iran? The hawkish Israeli foreign minister Avigidor Lieberman was warmly received in Moscow last week. I don’t think Netanyahu would require much in the way of encouragement to launch an attack, and the promise of the backing of one major outside nuclear power might suffice. Or, playing the other side, would the oil price remain depressed if Saudi Arabia’s monarchy—we all know how stable monarchies are—began facing an armed insurgency, potentially targeting its oil rich eastern provinces? Take your pick, the Islamic State or Shi’ites, it’s not hard to find people who need little encouragement to fight the Saudi monarchy. Could Russia accelerate such insurgencies? Surely a desperate enough Russia could try.

Or consider this scenario, the most shocking thing suggested by my Russian emigré interlocutor. Which Baltic country, in the midst of some manufactured crisis between pro- and anti-Russian elements, would be the best place to try out a tactical battlefield nuclear weapon? I can’t imagine such a thing happening—it would certainly be the most alarming event in international politics since what—the Cuban missile crisis? But, to say the least, one such explosion would pretty rapidly put an end to all speculation that Putin and his government are going to meekly comply if we only “raise the cost” to Moscow of intervening in Ukraine.

I’m not a Russia expert, though I’m not really persuaded that Ivo Daalder and Strobe Talbott and company are either. But they, like much of the Washington political class, are convinced that it is their God-given role as elite Americans to manage the world, to bend it to our neoliberal capitalist sense of what the good society is. They are part of the seamless Washington web—the term military-industrial complex hardly seems adequate anymore—whose role it is to continuously expand the range of human activities that are supposedly Washington’s business, our ” vital interests”—invariably presented as what is best for everyone else.

The Ukraine crisis originated, of course, with the efforts of various American and European elites to exploit longstanding historic resentments in that tragic land in order to count up a win for the West, a defeat for Moscow. Billions of dollars were spent laying the groundwork for a coup d’état and popular revolution—the Maidan campaign was a bit of both—and the efforts were successful. Bravo, said everyone. “It’s one for the history books” said our meddling ambassador after last February’s coup. Then Russia responded, and Washington and all the chanceries of Europe were taken aback by the vigor and violence of the response.

So now they plot how to respond to Russia’s reaction. If the West amplifies the pressures just a bit, “raises the price” to Putin for trying to keep NATO out of his backyard, he surely must then submit and bless the transfer of Ukraine into the Western alliance. It’s logical that he would, just as it was logical that the North Vietnamese would submit to Washington’s carefully calibrated escalations of bombing of their homeland. Doesn’t Putin realize that he is up against a superior, more advanced social system?

But what if Putin doesn’t respond as all the think tank warriors say he will, then what? Has anyone thought about that?

Scott McConnell is a TAC founding editor.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 68.

#1. To: Ada (#0)

More dead Ukranians, along the scale of the Holodomor. Cannon fodder to the New World Order, once again.

Deasy  posted on  2015-02-04   9:51:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Deasy (#1)

More dead Ukranians, along the scale of the Holodomor. Cannon fodder to the New World Order, once again.

We need to put things in proper perspective, with consideration of current geo/politics and past history.

In the past, Germany confirmed the olde adage, never involve yourself in a two front war, never, ever. If we do not accept that as a given, even thinking about the situation is a waste of time.

If Poot insists on invasion, either the US backs down or WWIII is on. Nuclear? No.

Russia has always backed away from confrontation, always because they initiated the problem.

There is another geo/political headache that weighs on Poot every day of his life, China. Does he risk war with the west, with two billion Chinese sitting there, on his back doorstep?

Only a fool would move west against White Europe, with billions of yellow people waiting to finish you off. This a close rerun of the thinking of Stalin in 1938-39.

Cynicom  posted on  2015-02-04   10:16:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Cynicom (#2)

In the past, Germany confirmed the olde adage, never involve yourself in a two front war, never, ever. If we do not accept that as a given, even thinking about the situation is a waste of time.

If Poot insists on invasion, either the US backs down or WWIII is on. Nuclear? No.

I'm not sure I would agree with that. Agree on the general two-front war, which Germany never wanted. In fact Hitler is on record, not the propagandized "winners write the history books" record, the other, the real one, as not having wanted war at all and all but on his knees begging the US to avoid one along with Germany.

Here's the thing in this scenario, two things really. Two-front wars are no longer what they meant in the mid or late 20th century. So much is conducted now via unmanned technology, drones, etc., or by air power which includes missiles.

Secondly, China would presumably have to make any ground attack inroads via NE China, but that's very unpopulated as is SE Russia. I don't see that Russia would hesitate to create a nuclear wasteland in that region simply to create an impasse.

I mean who sees China taking adavantage of a Russian war with the US using Ukraine as its surrogate (and maybe NATO) via an exchange of missiles and air attacks? I don't see that.

China has much more to lose than to gain by doing that. JMO

I think that many still operate under the dated delusion that ground troops are what win wars, or at least create them. I don't think that Russia would hesitate for a second if China unleashed millions of troops across that region, to nuke them out there in sparsely populated land.

Lastly, this notion that nukes (tactical) have not been used is also ridiculous. Places like Fallujah are polluted with nuclear waste from us, the US troops. Even our troops have and continue to suffer from related even if unknown ailments as a direct result.

The next step is simply larger tactical nukes, that's all.

Otherwise, it's madness. What, will we not stop until the entire world is involved in war?

It's unfortunate, but IMO the only way in which Americans are going to learn is the hard way. As a nation we will keep pushing and pushing until some country out of desperation wreaks havoc on us from afar whether it be nuclear or other. Then Americans will be screaming bloody murder. Perhaps at that time the new chant will become we're all Palestinians now! I doubt it, but no one's going to get it until such a time.

As it is now the police in this country are far more a threat to the average American, death wise that is, not merely politically, than terrorism of any sort. Yet, the same people hell bent, literally, on pursuing terrorists while simultaneously supporting something that has thousands of times the likelihood of killing them or their family members than terrorism.

Talk about idiocy.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-04   14:28:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Katniss, Cynicom, christine (#7)

I'm not sure I would agree with that. Agree on the general two-front war, which Germany never wanted. In fact Hitler is on record, not the propagandized "winners write the history books" record, the other, the real one, as not having wanted war at all and all but on his knees begging the US to avoid one along with Germany.

I think that many still operate under the dated delusion that ground troops are what win wars, or at least create them.

The next step is simply larger tactical nukes, that's all.

David Irving has documented this very well. It was Churchill's war, war for world Jewry. You're on fire, Katniss.

On your next issue with ground "foot soldier" warfare, I've been saying this for years: strategic weapons and (as you mention) remote controlled, automated weapons platforms like drone aircraft have changed everything.

On your last quoted point, I believe depleted-uranium ammunition would have some of the characteristics you've described.

Deasy  posted on  2015-02-05   0:41:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Deasy (#22)

On your last quoted point, I believe depleted-uranium ammunition would have some of the characteristics you've described.

Yes, exactly. Portions of Iraq are a mess in that way having resulted, and still resulting in birth defects and other clearly anomalous health related issues, not unlike, yet different, from chemical use in Vietnam for example.

It wouldn't take much to create an impassible zone for Chinese foot soldiers trying to move via NE China into SE Russia. Not to mention that that distance is silly and there's little strategic significance until further inroads towards Moscow are made.

Cyni's just wrong on that.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-05   4:23:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Katniss (#34)

Yes, exactly.

These are not considered to be 'nuclear weapons' and I doubt that they're under any NPTs yet. They're so effective that I doubt we'll be giving them up soon. A beam weapon of some sort could take their place but that's unlikely anytime soon.

It wouldn't take much to create an impassible zone for Chinese foot soldiers trying to move via NE China into SE Russia.
This sounds like Douglas MacArthur. Neutron weapons on actual troops would be more likely scenario, and both the Russians and the Chinese have them, AFAIK.

The number of troops available to China are still a big concern, but their technological approach is even more worrisome. They'll likely be focused on building simple, EMP-proof platforms that are easy to build in quantity.

But we agree: China isn't likely to attack Russia if NATO tries to push the Russians out of the Crimean or northeastern Ukraine. According to military theory, NATO would require 10x or better superiority in forces, which they can't deliver. To attack Russia near its core would be suicidal. This whole charade is disgusting considering how many troops Europe and America would lose to gain a few hundred square miles of territory.

It reminds me of Napoleon in fact.

Deasy  posted on  2015-02-05   10:09:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Deasy (#37) (Edited)

These are not considered to be 'nuclear weapons' and I doubt that they're under any NPTs yet. They're so effective that I doubt we'll be giving them up soon. A beam weapon of some sort could take their place but that's unlikely anytime soon.

Yeah, they have both tactical ones for individual use by each soldier, as well as shells for use in artillery and armor.

But we agree: China isn't likely to attack Russia if NATO tries to push the Russians out of the Crimean or northeastern Ukraine. According to military theory, NATO would require 10x or better superiority in forces, which they can't deliver. To attack Russia near its core would be suicidal. This whole charade is disgusting considering how many troops Europe and America would lose to gain a few hundred square miles of territory.

War in general is disgusting. The people rarely want it, modern America is among the exceptions. Even here however, people weary of perpetual war. Once it hits home a lot more, which could come with a heightened police state action, then they'll be dead set against it. Ironically, that will be a decade or more too late to do anything about it. And remember, everyone "voted" for it. LOL

As to Russia China, we agree that China is not likely to attack Russia, but even if they did, it would not be with ground troops having to march over serious mountain ranges and 4,000 miles +/- to boot. That will never happen and if the Chinese were stupid enough to attempt that, which I cannot even remotely fathom, then they'd be stopped via methods in our discussion or others.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-05   11:36:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Katniss (#44)

Ironically, that will be a decade or more too late to do anything about it. And remember, everyone "voted" for it. LOL

I remember some sentiments along the lines that Obama would "make peace." I don't know if that's how he got voted in, but the media played up his ambitions to ease the world's tensions. But like you I don't think Americans really want peace. WWII is enshrined as a golden calf that is worshiped daily around the nation. One can't have an argument in favor of isolationism without ending up back on the subject of the evil Axis and the poor Jude.

Deasy  posted on  2015-02-05   11:42:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Deasy, Katniss (#47)

I remember some sentiments along the lines that Obama would "make peace." I don't know if that's how he got voted in, but the media played up his ambitions to ease the world's tensions. But like you I don't think Americans really want peace.

Shades of 'Dollar Bill' Clinton's much-heralded "peace dividend": that fucker ended up bombing Christians in favor of invading Muslims in SE Europe and managed to whack a Chinese embassy. The Halfrican is even more incompetent on the intl. stage and the whole world laughs at him when they aren't shaking their fists at his hamfisted approach to waging illegal wars on behalf of his Zionist masters.

X-15  posted on  2015-02-05   14:00:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: X-15 (#55)

Shades of 'Dollar Bill' Clinton's much-heralded "peace dividend": that fucker ended up bombing Christians in favor of invading Muslims in SE Europe and managed to whack a Chinese embassy. The Halfrican is even more incompetent on the intl. stage and the whole world laughs at him when they aren't shaking their fists at his hamfisted approach to waging illegal wars on behalf of his Zionist masters.

As you imply at the end of that, both were merely taking orders from their Zio masters.

Should we really blame them? Or should we be blaming the populace for being the ship-of-fools vehicle that's required to pull this entire charade off for well over a century?

The diversions put before the masses are working all too well.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-05   14:16:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Katniss, 4 (#58)

Or should we be blaming the populace for being the ship-of-fools vehicle that's required to pull this entire charade off for well over a century?

How can we blame a populace so totally mind fucked that they're more interested in the sexual transformation of Bruce Jenner than the true state of the nation? It's like being angry at Nurse Ratched's patients when they dribble their soup.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2015-02-05   14:25:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Jethro Tull (#60)

How can we blame a populace so totally mind fucked that they're more interested in the sexual transformation of Bruce Jenner than the true state of the nation? It's like being angry at Nurse Ratched's patients when they dribble their soup.

Well that was kinda my point.

Katniss  posted on  2015-02-05   20:35:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Katniss, Jethro Tull, abraxas (#66) (Edited)

It's like being angry at Nurse Ratched's patients when they dribble their soup.

But Nurse Ratched's patients love her, swear allegiance to her, and even sell their children to her minions. They claim that her way has always been the best way. She has a 'medicinal' cocktail custom-tailored to each major faction of patients. She has most of the breakout movement on surveillance and via her minions, feeds them a steady diet of disinformation; they congratulate one another on claims that the hospital is about to go broke. Some are led to believe that if they could only alert their fellow hospital inpatients to one more piece of evidence that her treatments are detrimental, they would assist them in the big breakout. Others dream of the day when the senior hospital management will return and put everything into divine order.

It's not just that the inpatients are drooling. The majority are satisfied with their regimens and bristle if one questions how wrong it's all been.

Deasy  posted on  2015-02-06   0:41:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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