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Title: (Dallas) Police Deny Excessive Force In Bloody Arrest (black cop, white girl)
Source:
NBC5i.com
URL Source: http://www.nbc5i.com/news/6158812/detail.html
Published: Jan 16, 2006
Author: NBC5
Post Date: 2006-01-16 20:18:09 by BTP Holdings
Keywords: Excessive, (Dallas), Police
Views: 13181
Comments: 855
POSTED: 5:16 pm CST January 16, 2006
DALLAS -- E-mails and pictures circulating the Internet tell the tale of a Dallas woman's bloody run-in with police after a roller-skating outing escalated into an arrest with excessive force, but officers and some witnesses Monday told a different story.
The incident happened early Saturday morning in Deep Ellum after police attempted to speak with Michelle Metzinger, 25, who, according to a police report, was intoxicated and weaving through traffic on roller skates.
Images: The Arrest & Other Slideshows
The pictures that stemmed from the events that followed are dramatic. They show an officer arresting Metzinger. Her face is covered in blood and there is a puddle of blood on the sidewalk.
"Very excessive. Uncalled for, you know. We're talking about a 250-pound guy and a 100-pound girl. It was just over the top," witness "D.C." said. "All I saw were her feet in the air and disappearing behind a cop car."
However, Dallas police and other witnesses tell a totally different story.
They said Metzinger was drunk and that she not only ignored officers who asked her to stop skating in the street, but also shouted profanities.
According to reports, an officer then tried to arrest Metzinger for public intoxication.
She resisted and attacked the officer, Lt. Rick Watson said.
"The officer attempted to turn her around, at which time the suspect then reached up and grabbed the officer's -- right part of his face -- trying to gouge the officer's eye," Watson said.
Despite the interest that the story has generated online and in the media, Metzinger said she would not comment on the incident until she had consulted with a lawyer.
Metzinger also had not filed a complaint report, so Dallas police were not conducting an internal investigation.
When I worked concert security and someone got bloodied, it was always proper for us to "get our stories straight." Or, as Eddie Murphy said in that movie, "You were lying your asses off." That LT is a lying piece of shit and so is the black cop who LIED in his report.
I'll tell you one thing for certain, this bastard needs to be caught and given a damn hard ball-batting. And then a WHITE magic marker taken to his forehead and the words BAD COP inscribed thereon. What was done was brutal, inexcusable and unjustified.
Police Deny Excessive Force In Bloody Arrest
Dramatic Pictures, Rumors Circulate Online
UPDATED: 6:11 pm CST January 16, 2006
Poster Comment:
Pictures taken by a witness clearly show the cops are LIARS!
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#713. To: Richard (#709)
This is your own continued projection of your deceptions on to me, that I must belive what would be convenient for you to argue - a strawman. That is not what I believe. Well that is the lie that you want to perpetrate now isn't it. I said she had a right to refuse treatment. I did not say what the paramedics did or did not do. I in fact asked you, didn't I. And you've made up my answer for me, a belief you impute to me, haven't you. My issue with all this, my actual belief, is that the paramedics may well have wiped off her face and asked if she wanted treatment (like a neck brace maybe), possibly for neck or other injuries that she may have sustained in the scuffle, which treatment (of whatever, for whatever reasons) she declined, rightfully as the police acknowledged. Time will tell what her injuries actually were. But I do not believe that you witnessed it, or if you did I do not believe you will be honest or objective about it. I believe you're making it up as the questions come to you, from what you've read in news reports. My questions were designed to find out how truthful you have been, what you actually know, and to get your "eyewitness" information on the record for later comparison. The issue for me was never what the paramedics did or did not do. The issue for me is what did you actually witness. This thread has become about your credibility (or lack thereof). And observing your poor witness of the questions and answers on this thread, which are readily verifiable, I'm convinced at this point that you merely lie and distort to serve your own agenda.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Thanks for that informative and well thought out response! Much appreciated. :) No problem... BTW, I've SEEN 6 year olds attack adults, causing serious injuries to the adult and occasionally significant injury to the child if the adult is either not trained in proper restraining methods or is caught off guard, unable to subdue the child safely. When any person attacks another person the attacker is the provokee and NOT the victim until and unless the initial victim restrains the attacker and then CONTINUES to manhandle the attacker. Certainly, reasonable people don't pound them into the pavement once restrained but simply use whatever means are NECESSARY to keep them restrained even if that causes injury to the attacker. Whose fault is it that someone presumably CHOOSES to drink too much, take mind altering drugs, or to attack someone else? It's difficult to know what really happened without being a professional investigator or catching it on film.
Don't force feed me your views... talk to me so I can hear you...
You say she refused treatment, I said that they cleaned her face and sent her to the hospital. You reiterated that that the police report stated she refused treatment… what did you mean by that after I had told you that the paramedics had looked at her? What value would it be to restate your point other than to attempt to impugn mine? She was belligerent as hell when they were looking at her. While the paramedics were working with her she was constantly twisting her head and swearing at them telling them to leave her the fuck alone. They did not check her for neck injuries from what I saw, but they probably figured that if this bitch could swing her head so well, she did not have a neck injury, and they did examine her face quietly and professionally while she swore at them. Officer Gordon was also examined, but surprisingly did not act so violently towards the paramedics. He could have been severely injured when Michelle was kicking at him with her roller skates after he initially took her to the ground, but fortunately, the reports say he only suffered bruises. You don’t have to believe I witnessed the event if you do not wish to. That does not change the fact that I did witness the event. It is a FACT because I did witness the event, yours is only a BELIEF. My FACT trumps your BELIEF. See, people “BELIEVE” in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and God… but those are not FACTS, they are just BELIEFS. Your questions were designed (and poorly designed at that)as a failed attempt to try to discredit me from the start, which is difficult for you to do being as how you only have sketchy third-hand knowledge of what went on that evening, while I was less than 25 feet from the event as it occured. Your approach to this matter has been offensive and confrontational, and you are surprised that you are getting attitude from me about it? You were not there and yet you try to tell me what did or did not happen, and now say that you don’t think I was there based upon what has been said here. Again, you were not there and know less than has been inaccurately reported in the press about what happened that night. Well, the police sure say I was there for a FACT because they took my statement, so once again, your BELIEF is yours to keep, and won’t come into play over the course of the investigation into this matter. Hopefully now that you have established your belief, incorrect though it is, you will let this matter go. I doubt it, but it is my hope.
Siagiah, I liked what you had to say there. So many people today are doing whatever they can to avoid taking personal responsibilty for their actions. No matter what happens it never seems to be their fault. Is it not the responsibility of the individual who has been drinking to monitor their alcohol intake, as well as their behavior? If my alcohol intake and my behavior cause me to act in a way that is illegal, and I am arrested as a result of my illegal action, ... would you not say that it was MY fault? Hmmm... Here is a scenario... Let's say I am drunk and skating in the street, which is illegal, and I am told it is illegal by a police officer but I continue to skate in the street anyway, so the officer stops me and decides to place me under arrest, but I don't like that so much and I take a swing at an officer who tries to put me in handcuffs, resulting in him wrestling me to the ground, and then, while on the ground, I kick at him with my rollerskates until he flips me over and suceeds in handcuffing me... would you not say that it was MY fault that this entire scenario occurred? In that scenario, I was the one who CHOSE to drink, I was the one who CHOSE to skate in the middle of a busy street even AFTER the police told me to stop, I was the one who took a swing at the officer when he tried to place me under arrest, and I was the one who continued to struggle even when I was wrestled to the ground. Seems like that would be easily considered by even the most simple of minds to be MY fault. Well... that is what happened to Michelle that night. So... could we not say that this incident was, in fact, Michelle's fault?
Give it a break. Michelle was the injured party, not the cop that needs a rope as fashion accessory. "Michelle was kicking at him with her roller skates after he initially took her to the ground," Did it ever occur to you she was frightened and in pain from having her face scraped off? Might she move her legs? You Richie, are a real work. An shill for the Dallas PO. What a statest sucker. By the way, can you prove that from the photos???
"Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially-induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear." -- General Douglas MacArthur
I"m with you ther man. I hope the Dallas PO Officer is ready to take personal responsibility for his violent, abusive actions. "No matter what happens it never seems to be their fault." Officer Gorden - wasn't me. Didn't do it. Glad to see the DAllas Police are protecting you from rogue girl skaters, RICHARD> You must feel safer already, don't you???
"Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially-induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear." -- General Douglas MacArthur
"Michelle was kicking at him with her roller skates after he initially took her to the ground," Did it ever occur to you she was frightened and in pain from having her face scraped off? Might she move her legs? You Richie, are a real work. An shill for the Dallas PO. What a statest sucker. By the way, can you prove that from the photos??? Tom, "Give it a break. Michelle was the injured party, not the cop..." Actually, once again, you are wrong. The cop was treated for several scrapes and bruises he sustained from his encounter with the suspect. Both parties were injured as a result of Michelle's actions. Furthermore, have you ever been kicked with a roller skate? They can do quite a bit of dammage. They have very solid metal reinforced soles help them to pack a lot of punch. As for your laughable statement about "did it ever occur to me that she was frightened and in pain from having her face scraped off?" A: her face was not scraped off.. the sum total of her injuries were SMALL cuts, one of which required a few stitches. That does NOT equate in any way to having one's face scraped off. B: I am sure she was frightened. However, that does not give her the right to assault a police officer. Which she continued to do. She did not just "move her legs" she was taking aim and kicking. These were not involuntary muscle movements, these were agressive actions. Remember, she fights on roller skates as a profession. I don't need to prove anything from the photos, I was at the scene at the time, I had just left July Alley, not 25 feet from where this went down. Tom, as I have told you before, I don't work for Dallas, the Police, or any other government body, I have no involvement in this matter other than being a witness and being tired of hearing people like yourself who were NOT there try to make it seem like this was an innocent little girl who got jumped.
God is Santa Clause for adults.
O I forgot. Dallas Police NEVER are gulity of brutality.
"Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially-induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear." -- General Douglas MacArthur
--Officer Gordon has never denied subduing the suspect and needing to use force to do so. His actions were the result of the actions of Michelle. Her actions have consequences. --His actions were violent because he had to defend himself against his assailant, but they were in no way abusive. "Glad to see the DAllas Police are protecting you from rogue girl skaters" --I too am glad to see that drunk people who roller skate in busy traffic are being stopped by the police before their drunken, illegal and irresponsible actions cause serious accidents or even death. Had the police warned her and let her go, and then she was hit by a car while skating in the street, I am sure you would be screaming about "why did they just let her keep skating in the street if they thought she was drunk!?!" As I said, from what I saw, the police did their job and did it well. God is Santa Clause for adults.
Tom, I never once said that the police are never guilty of butality. I agree that it does happen and have even said as much on this thread. However, in THIS instance, THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE, the police are in no way guilty of butality, nor excessive force. This woman was simply wrestled to the ground and handcuffed after she resisted arrest and attacked the police officer. She was not struck by the officer, who, given that she was continuing to fight with him, would have been an acceptable option. She was not maced, which, given that she was continuing to fight, would have been an acceptable option. All he did was wrestle her to the ground, and when she kept fighting and started kicking at him, he flipped her over and got the cuffs on her. Actually, in my view, he showed extreme RESTRAINT in his use of force.
~~God is Santa Clause for adults.~~
Tom, I never once said that the police are never guilty of butality. I agree that it does happen and have even said as much on this thread. I said that not you. I agree with your response.
"Our country is now geared to an arms economy bred in an artificially-induced psychosis of war hysteria and an incessant propaganda of fear." -- General Douglas MacArthur
I never once said that the police are never guilty of butality. I agree that it does happen and have even said as much on this thread. I said that not you. I agree with your response. Tom, If you are going to agree with my response... then make sure you include the entire response, so people know what it is that you are agreeing with here. You agree with my response when I said: "I never once said that the police are never guilty of butality. I agree that it does happen and have even said as much on this thread. However, in THIS instance, THIS SPECIFIC INSTANCE, the police are in no way guilty of butality, nor excessive force." I am glad to hear that you agree. Thanks.
~~God is Santa Clause for adults.~~
Perhaps they are sometimes and even more likely, perhaps they are not all the time...THIS TIME, it's really not clear from the evidence which is which. Richard claims to have been a witness. He can't prove he was there and you can't prove he wasn't. THEREFORE we have an impasse that requires that we debate based only on the indisputable FACTS available... No offense intended to Richard, but he can claim whatever he pleases but his assertion that his version is FACT means nothing to anyone BUT him since he has yet to produce any documents from the Dallas PD proving his claim. Equally meaningless, with no offense intended to you Tom007, it APPEARS that you have brought a personal bias to the table that colors your view against one and for another. You have not offered anything in the nature of FACT to your statement that it WAS the police officer's fault. Any reasonable reader of your post could conclude that you've decided blame based on those biases and not on the facts since you cite no facts to back up your views. The only thing that is clear is that the gal was on the ground, she did have minor facial injuries, her face was bloodied, she was drunk according to medical testimony, she was wearing roller skates, she did kick the officer trying to avoid being handcuffed, and the officer did have minor bruises. It's irrelevant that some hate cops a/o blacks or that she weighed 1/3 what he did... Even tiny children can injure you if they so desire... It's irrelevant that some cops beat folks because not ALL cops do. Not much else is known as fact so that's all we have to work with that is indisputable... Can we at least all agree on something?
Don't force feed me your views... talk to me so I can hear you...
Siagiah, You are so well spoken that I wanna give you a big hug. :) I enjoy you.
~~God is Santa Clause for adults.~~
Gotta agree with you Elliot.......I worked LA for 3 years.....and saw some bad officers do some bad things.....We place too much emphasis on Officers tryin to obey the law, and forget that they are, after all...just human, with emotions and feelings......and we ask much of them, in situations hard to imagine...We all react in diff ways in diff situations....2 hours before this incident, the officer may have covered a child rape or abused wife....or perhaps a robbery in progress, who knows what was in his mind?.....never the less, He could have chose a diff way to handle it.....But in his defense....this aint the movies, folks!.....You try takin down someone who dont wanna be taken down...size has little to do with it....a drunk or someone on PCP...can have strength you might find it hard to believe....and they feel very little pain, until after the fact.....Just my two cents.......Peace, ya'all!
Oh yes, the old "superhuman criminal" story. I've heard that nonsense before too. I don't care how zonked out someone is, you can still take them down with any number of moves, and the cops are taught a whole lot of them. Believe me, I know, my step-father used to practice the moves they taught him on me. Here's a true story of something I saw one day in Silicon Valley (Santa Clara, California). The cops were rousting some guy in a parking lot just off the El Camino by Lawrence Expressway, some bum who looked like he might have thought of himself as a "tough guy", mid-thirties, bald head, no shirt, looked like he worked out. Guess how many cops were there rousting this guy? One? Two? Four? Try more like THIRTY FIVE! No kidding. I counted, but I'm not sure if it was an exact count because there were so many of them. There were so many cops there that they had to have two cops directing traffic around the cop traffic jam created by all of the cop cars who stopped in to roust this guy. Thirty five cops. What were they thinking? I know what I was thinking, "what a bunch of total pussies these blue suited bullies are." Since when are thirty five cops needed to roust a bum? Sheesh. Some may say "support your local police", but I'm not one of them. I don't like cowardly pussy fear biters.
Your statement speaks directly to your belief that she was not treated at the scene in any fashion because the police report states that the refused treatment and was taken to a hospital.
I suppose you are now going to hide behind the fact that you did not state the specific phrases "the paramedics did clean off her face" nor "the paramedics did not clean off her face."
#714. To: Richard, all (#712)
Siagiah,
#715. To: Starwind (#713)
#716. To: siagiah (#714)
#717. To: Richard (#715)
He could have been severely injured when Michelle was kicking at him with her roller skates after he initially took her to the ground, but fortunately, the reports say he only suffered bruises.
#718. To: Richard (#716)
So many people today are doing whatever they can to avoid taking personal responsibilty for their actions. No matter what happens it never seems to be their fault.
#719. To: tom007 (#717)
Give it a break. Michelle was the injured party, not the cop that needs a rope as fashion accessory.
#720. To: All (#718)
#721. To: tom007 (#718)
I hope the Dallas PO Officer is ready to take personal responsibility for his violent, abusive actions. "No matter what happens it never seems to be their fault." Officer Gorden - wasn't me. Didn't do it.
#722. To: tom007 (#720)
I forgot. Dallas Police NEVER are gulity of brutality.
#723. To: Richard (#722)
I forgot. Dallas Police NEVER are gulity of brutality.
#724. To: tom007 (#723)
I forgot. Dallas Police NEVER are gulity of brutality. Tom,
#725. To: tom007, Richard, All (#720)
To: All O I forgot. Dallas Police NEVER are gulity of brutality.
#726. To: siagiah (#725)
#727. To: Elliott Jackalope (#50)
I will never agree with those who believe that "if you are doing nothing wrong, then you have nothing to worry about".
#728. To: Merlin (#727)
You try takin down someone who dont wanna be taken down...size has little to do with it....a drunk or someone on PCP...can have strength you might find it hard to believe....and they feel very little pain, until after the fact
 | Gold and silver are real money, paper is but a promise. |
#729. To: Elliott Jackalope (#728)
I gather two things from your comments....One, that you are probably a Libral....and Two.....at some point in your life, You have been "Rousted" by some police or authority figure. It kills me to read all of the horror stories about the law enforcement community. Your solution is what?...to disband all police forces? I will totally agree with you, that we have some bad officers out there...But all of them, or MOST of them, are not the "storm troopers" you try to portray them as. I resided in Mexico for a time...The police there pretty much enforce the law, according to how much money a person has, or the social status of an individual. What a country this would be, if that happened here. And yes, my friend, I DO support my local police...I dont always agree, or condone some of thier actions, but I'm not quite ready to just dump our system, just yet.
Some may say "support your local police", but I'm not one of them. I don't like cowardly pussy fear biters.
#730. To: siagiah (#725)
Just saw your post......We need more clear thinkers like you in the world!....Very well said!
Not much else is known as fact so that's all we have to work with that is indisputable... Can we at least all agree on something?
#731. To: Merlin, siagiah (#730)
No, I can't agree with siagiah, or apparently you. The kid was submissive to authority (see photos) and for the police officer to allow the incident to reach the point it did show a lack of control on his part. Add his past history of aggressive behavior and it’s clear to me who the criminal is here. The cop needs to be fired and the Dallas PD sued for millions. That's all the power structure knows.
#732. To: Merlin (#729)
First, no I'm not a liberal, but I'm not a fan of conservatives any longer either. As of now I no longer see things as "right or left", I see them as "right or wrong". And two, yes, I've been rousted before, many time when I was living on the streets. I was rousted and harassed for the crimes of sleeping, and the crime of loitering, and the crime of asking people for money. Did I mention that I came from a really fucked up family background? But I overcame it because of my natural tendency to be a workaholic. Meanwhile, Ken Lay, who stole billions, still has yet to see the inside of a courtroom. Five years later, still has not even been put in handcuffs. Him and thousands of other corporate criminals buy their way out of their crimes that cost people billions. Oh, and another experience I got to live through, about fifteen years ago I came up with "a really good idea", something worth a whole lot of money. I put together a team of engineers, and tried to get venture capital financing. Guess what happened? The VC's stole my idea, and made billions off of it. No shit. I got to spend five years fighting in court, just to end up with a tiny fraction of a fraction of a fraction of what my idea was worth. Why? Because our system is just like the one you described in Mexico. It does, in fact, enforce the law according to how much money a person has. So there you have it. The fact of the matter is I deeply resent and despise cops and our legal system (don't insult us all by calling it a "justice" system), but I also get a big laugh watching what happens to cops after they retire. They usually drink themselves to death. Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch of assholes. They sure do have a lot of television shows portraying how "brave cops" save us from all of the "street criminals", but they don't have any shows portraying law officers going after corporate criminals and evil lawyers who make a mockery of justice with their manipulations of the law, do they? No, they don't, and the end result is to manufacture people like me who would not piss down a cops throat if their lungs were on fire. Fuck the cops, and fuck this corporatist empire. I hope I live long enough to see the power elites given the French Revolution treatment. I will personally volunteer for executionor duty when that day comes. Heck, I'll do it for free.
| Gold and silver are real money, paper is but a promise. |
#733. To: Elliott Jackalope (#732)
anyone who's got their eyes open is *there*. good post, as usual. ;)
First, no I'm not a liberal, but I'm not a fan of conservatives any longer either. As of now I no longer see things as "right or left", I see them as "right or wrong"
#734. To: Elliott Jackalope (#732)
Elliot, the world is not black & white and neither is our system of justice. Certainly there are bad cops but there are more good ones overall. From my POV, the gal is ANYTHING but submissive. She is COMBATIVE. Submissive people cower, pull into fetal positions, and look scared. She looks anything but. I appreciate that you've had bad experiences that are coloring your views here but try to put them aside, pretend the officer is not a police officer but is a regular person on the street. Does the gal look like she's meek and afraid? or does her demeanor and the photos support the officer's story?
I don't know about you, but the present STATE OF THE UNION scares the crap outa me...
#735. To: Merlin (#730)
Thanks Merlin. I assume you are the same Merlin from CPD board?
I don't know about you, but the present STATE OF THE UNION scares the crap outa me...
#736. To: siagiah (#734)
I understand what you are trying to say. My problem is that am also human, and my experiences have made me incapable of being objective when it comes to police and authority figures. I'm one who will always assume they are in the wrong whenever a question arises. Considering the legions of bootlicking power worshippers who will always side with the cops no matter what, society needs people like me to provide just the tiniest amout of push back.
| Gold and silver are real money, paper is but a promise. |
#737. To: Elliott Jackalope (#736)
Okay, fair enough... Just understand that there will also be those of us here who want to be as objective as possible and who allow for BOTH possibilities. I do NOT dismiss her claims outright because pictures CAN and DO lie, especially when given only a small selection to view, BUT the evidence presented comes from someone who is trying to show that she was BEATEN. Presumably, they'd choose the most likely to convince pictures from the group. If these are their most convincing pictures of someone being beaten into submission, I'd like to see what they didn't choose. These photos do NOT support the idea of her being beaten or scared... I am quite familiar with that type of situation from working in the psychiatric/emergency room field. I've NEVER seen anyone who fits the profile they are selling look like she does... This is the reason that I lean more heavily towards the officer's story rather than the girls. I could be wrong, that possibility certainly exists, but I strongly doubt it.
To: siagiah I understand what you are trying to say. My problem is that am also human, and my experiences have made me incapable of being objective when it comes to police and authority figures. I'm one who will always assume they are in the wrong whenever a question arises. Considering the legions of bootlicking power worshippers who will always side with the cops no matter what, society needs people like me to provide just the tiniest amout of push back.
I don't know about you, but the present STATE OF THE UNION scares the crap outa me...
#738. To: Jethro Tull, Merlin, siagiah (#731)
You're 100% correct on this, JT. I've got 11 years worth of experience in Chicago and you've got 15 on NYPD. I can say that on a couple of occasions I have been complemented by the "boys in blue" in Chicago as to the amount of restraint I showed in handling certain situations. Seriously, they said they would have gone off on the creeps a lot harder than I did in those same circumstances. The pictures tell enough of a story from where I stand and are unequivocal. I even had the privelege of being at the clusterfuck known as Woodstock '94 to work as security right on front of the main stage and came to develop a few close professional relationships, one with the guy who was in charge of security for that event and was also in charge of security for the Grateful Dead. When they come to town and spot you and immediately walk up and shake your hand, you know there is a great deal of professional respect and courtesy involved. The same happened for another guy who ran his own security company and did lots of gigs, one of which was called Lollapalooza. We did a couple of shows for them, one in Des Moines and another in Pecatonica, Illinois near Rockford. I knew this guy first from working with him at Woodstock '94 and the first thing he did when he spotted me was stop the golf cart he was on and jump off and give me a big hug. Now tell me there wasn't a connection, and don't get smart. ;0) This is just my way of showing how it is possible for us to be able to spot a bad situation and know what it is when we see it. I think you've got the same take on this as I do. Some never develop this and it is indeed like an extra sense. And there were many times that extra sense saved my bacon.
No, I can't agree with siagiah, or apparently you. The kid was submissive to authority (see photos) and for the police officer to allow the incident to reach the point it did show a lack of control on his part. Add his past history of aggressive behavior and it’s clear to me who the criminal is here. The cop needs to be fired and the Dallas PD sued for millions. That's all the power structure knows.
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
#739. To: Elliott Jackalope (#732)
So, trying to steal my thunder, huh? We need more rope!
I hope I live long enough to see the power elites given the French Revolution treatment. I will personally volunteer for executionor duty when that day comes. Heck, I'll do it for free.
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
#740. To: BTP Holdings (#738)
You've added nothing to the story other than personal reference UNRELATED to this incident. It's all good and all that you "know" cops but you don't know THIS COP or THIS GAL and the truth isn't based on anecdotes unrelated to the situation being judged... otherwise, HI BTP... nice to "see" ya...
I don't know about you, but the present STATE OF THE UNION scares the crap outa me...
#741. To: Elliott Jackalope (#732)
Great post. Death to the elites! Where do I sign up for executioner duties? Mark
...Fuck the cops, and fuck this corporatist empire. I hope I live long enough to see the power elites given the French Revolution treatment. I will personally volunteer for executionor duty when that day comes. Heck, I'll do it for free.....
#742. To: BTP Holdings (#739)
We need more rope! Ah luvs it when u talk dirty... ROFLMAO...
So, trying to steal my thunder, huh?
I don't know about you, but the present STATE OF THE UNION scares the crap outa me...
#743. To: BTP Holdings, all (#738)
If the cop couldn't cuff the kid without incident when she had her hands on the radio car, he has problems. Here's a little somthing on the officer involved: In his 13-plus years on the force, Officer Gordon has received his fair share of commendations and awards. But he's also had 27 complaints filed against him, most of which were deemed "unfounded" or "inconclusive." His record also includes at least two allegations of excessive force that were found to be inconclusive.
#744. To: Jethro Tull (#743)
Which PROVES what? That he's been accused by people before? That suggests a problem but it doesn't PROVE anything at all. It's all subjective. WHO accused him? When? Why? Why were they deemed unsupported or inconclusive? Is there a cover up or was there really NO EVIDENCE because it didn't really happen? You simply don't know. All that information does (for me) is reinforce my unwillingness to decide that I "know" what really happened. I believe, I don't know anything.
I don't know about you, but the present STATE OF THE UNION scares the crap outa me...
#745. To: siagiah (#740)
Be that as it may, there is another thing here which takes this a step further, and that is best described by the word experience. By this we take the truth to a higher plane. It is impossible to relate this by mere words alone. Trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about. ;0)
You've added nothing to the story other than personal reference UNRELATED to this incident. It's all good and all that you "know" cops but you don't know THIS COP or THIS GAL and the truth isn't based on anecdotes unrelated to the situation being judged...
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
#746. To: siagiah, Jethro Tull (#744)
Which PROVES what? That he's been accused by people before? That suggests a problem but it doesn't PROVE anything at all. It's all subjective. WHO accused him? When? Why? Why were they deemed unsupported or inconclusive? Is there a cover up or was there really NO EVIDENCE because it didn't really happen? You simply don't know. All that information does (for me) is reinforce my unwillingness to decide that I "know" what really happened. I believe, I don't know anything. That is a very high number of complaints, whether or not they were unfounded is irrelevant. I can tell you that I have had literally hundreds of incidents during the 11 years I did my thing. And during that time I had maybe 2 complaints that I had to deal with, one of which I had to go to court on. All of my immediate supervisors said the same thing, that I was one of their best guys. JT, how many incidents did you have in your work record in that jungle we call NYC? I'll bet it wasn't as many as this guy in Dallas has had in a similar period of time.
In his 13-plus years on the force, Officer Gordon has received his fair share of commendations and awards. But he's also had 27 complaints filed against him, most of which were deemed "unfounded" or "inconclusive." His record also includes at least two allegations of excessive force that were found to be inconclusive.
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
#747. To: BTP Holdings (#745)
By this we take the truth to a higher plane. It is impossible to relate this by mere words alone. Trust me on this. I know what I'm talking about. ;0) Yes, and I related MY EXPERIENCE to y'all. I work in an emergency room and in the psychiatric field. I see this stuff all the time. I live in the boonies NOW but I lived & worked in an inner city for 15 years. I'm not naive in any sense of the word. I am aware of what happens when ANYONE tries to handcuff or subdue a person unwilling to submit. There is NO WAY to accomplish it without a fight. That means that the officer gets kicked, bitten, spat on, hair pulled, scratched, elbowed, WHATEVER... and it follows that the person being handcuffed gets banged up as well. Whose fault is that? Well gee, it depends on who decided to resist arrest? Should the officer just let her go because she resists????? HOWEVER, if the person was NOT resisting, THEN we blame the officer. How do we decide the truth then? Witnesses. Photographs. Statements of those involved. The witnesses all corroborate the fact that the girl WAS resisting arrest. One can safely assume that she struggled and might have fallen. She was drunk, that is NOT a question. She was wearing roller skates WITH WHEELS. That is not a question. Her injuries are minor. The photos imply she was defiant. That SUPPORTS his view.
Be that as it may, there is another thing here which takes this a step further, and that is best described by the word experience.
I don't know about you, but the present STATE OF THE UNION scares the crap outa me...
#748. To: siagiah (#744)
When a police officer average more than two formal complaints a year, it’s my experience that where there’s smoke, there’s fire. IMO, he’s one of the many 250 pound assholes who are unfit to be “policing” anything, never mind anyone. If that stuffed bag of doughnuts couldn’t control a 90 pound kid on skates, who completely submitted btw, he’s in the wrong business. Been there, seen it, it blows.
Which PROVES what?
#749. To: Jethro Tull (#748)
Okay, fair enough. Has anyone checked HER record? I'd be interested in hearing all about what made her get drunk, go rollerskating in the middle of a highway, and then resist arrest... If this is a real issue with true merit, why is there no press on it aside from this ONE obscure article? I have run out of time for now... I'll catch up later... See if anyone can find out more about her?
I don't know about you, but the present STATE OF THE UNION scares the crap outa me...
#750. To: BTP Holdings (#746)
Far fewer than that, and I was in stationed in all the dumps NYC has to offer. And another thing. For every formal complaint lodged, countless go unreported. The public isn't dopey - they know the investigation of a cop is a routine whitewash. That said, multiply his 27? complaints by 5 and you'll be closer to the actual number.
JT, how many incidents did you have in your work record in that jungle we call NYC?
#751. To: Jethro Tull (#750)
I hear that. I know it's right what you're saying. And for all the cops back in the "old neighborhood" they were as tough as they were fair-minded most of the time. And when we ran across one with a bad attitude he either had a case of "small man syndrome" of was under orders of some sort. And if it happened to be something else, a word to the right cop you knew got back to the jerk in question and things chilled out. If it didn't we could count on the good guys to make things right. I was lucky I knew alot of the good guys. ;0)
Far fewer than that, and I was in stationed in all the dumps NYC has to offer. And another thing. For every formal complaint lodged, countless go unreported. The public isn't dopey - they know the investigation of a cop is a routine whitewash. That said, multiply his 27? complaints by 5 and you'll be closer to the actual number.
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
#752. To: siagiah (#749)
Have we proven she was drunk? And even if she was drunk,
being on skates, she’d be far easier to control. Let’s take the
officers story as fact for the sake of argument. What harm would it have been
if he back up and let her kick at thin air? That would have been the right
thing to do, since her efforts would have lasted 5 minutes, and threatened
nobody. And talk about the neat pics that would have generated (g).
What bothers me in this matter is her size, his bulk, and the pictures of her
submitting prior to the incident. Also, the general trend of police behavior
over the past few years is troubling. They've become increasingly aggressive,
especially in places like this Deep Ellum-type area. To "protect and serve"
has been replaced with "to arrest and summons".
They've allowed themselves to become revenue collectors for local government,
and they love it.
I'd be interested in hearing all about what made her get drunk,
go rollerskating in the middle of a highway, and then resist arrest...
#753. To: siagiah, Jethro Tull (#747)
I don't doubt your personal experience with the aftermath of these sort of incidents. I've also known another woman who worked in ER in Cook County Hospital (Chicago). You can't get much more "inner city" than that. So I've heard this all before and I do not doubt anything you say in this regard. (HA! She used to mess with the darkies when they would mess with her. She would withhold meds from the junkies and the junkies would start screaming, "Doc, she's stealing my dope." She would say, "Don't listen to him, Doc, he's just trying to get more." ROTFLMAO!) It does not always turn out like this, not by a long shot. Like JT says, been there, seen it (and done it), and it does indeed blow. Handcuffing someone was only a measure of last resort to protect all parties involved, them and us. In short, there's been times when all that was necessary was to just put them down and that was only on rare occasion at that. Sometimes there had to be a thumping dished out but that wasn't common at all. One time (Lollapalooza in Des Moines) when I had a kid just haul off and start swinging at me it was really easy to subdue him and put him down and cuff him. So I don't believe one minute that what I see in those pics was necessary or reasonable. I could relate dozens more incidents where there was never any blood drawn or for that matter anyone sent to jail. It's all a matter of perspective and rarely was there ever any hard feelings at a later date if you happened to encounter someone you had a previous altercation with. Matter of fact, I bumped into a guy at an after show party and he reminded me that I threw him out of one venue a couple years before. He bought me a drink and we shook hands. He admitted he was being a jerk at the time. I can tell you what happened when I had to thump a one time acquaintance of mine when he got out of line. Sure, I put some lumps on his head. I did not have to kick his ass. It was very simple, really, all I did was sit on him. What can I say, he made a huge tactical error. And this was only after I did the proper thing and tried to retreat to defuse the situation. ;0) Excuse me, but one of the first news reports I saw with interviews of witnesses said nothing of the sort, unlike a certain BOZO who has been dismissed from this forum. The vast majority of witnesses say it was excessive force. But then, you can line up twenty people and have them witness a pre-arranged incident and you will get 20 different descriptions of what they have seen. So, whom do you believe? I believe what my gut instinct tells me based on my own experience in the trenches. I've lived it and survived and seen others bad hurt. I know when I see a situtation that stinks and this one sure as hell does. They would not want me on the jury for this even if I had no knowledge of the incident since I have a very strict interpretation of what it takes to cross that thin blue line. I've been on both sides of it and walking that line is one of the most hair raising things anyone can choose to do. I've always lived on the edge and I haven't changed a whit. Just ask some bureauRATS about me some time. I guarantee I leave an impression on them even though they just meet my mighty pen. ;0)
Yes, and I related MY EXPERIENCE to y'all. I work in an emergency room and in the psychiatric field. I see this stuff all the time. I live in the boonies NOW but I lived & worked in an inner city for 15 years. I'm not naive in any sense of the word.
I am aware of what happens when ANYONE tries to handcuff or subdue a person unwilling to submit. There is NO WAY to accomplish it without a fight. That means that the officer gets kicked, bitten, spat on, hair pulled, scratched, elbowed, WHATEVER... and it follows that the person being handcuffed gets banged up as well. Whose fault is that?
The witnesses all corroborate the fact that the girl WAS resisting arrest.
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
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