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Title: The 70th Anniversary of the Bombing of Nagasaki
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URL Source: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/08 ... ry-of-the-bombing-of-nagasaki/
Published: Aug 5, 2015
Author: Gary G. Kohls, MD
Post Date: 2015-08-05 09:09:17 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 1526
Comments: 49
Unwelcome Truths for Church and State 70 years ago (August 9, 1945) an all-Christian bomber crew dropped a plutonium bomb over Nagasaki City, Japan, instantly vaporizing, incinerating or otherwise annihilating tens of thousands of innocent civilians, a disproportionately large number of them Japanese Christians. The explosion mortally wounded uncountable thousands of other victims who succumbed to the blast, the intense heat and/or the radiation. In 1945, the US was regarded as the most Christian nation in the world (that is, if you can label as truly Christian a nation whose churches are proponents of eye-for-an-eye retaliation, are supportive of America’s military and economic exploitation of other nations or otherwise fail to sincerely teach or adhere to the ethics of Jesus as taught in the Sermon on the Mount). Ironically, prior to the bomb exploding nearly directly over the Urakami Cathedral at 11:02 AM, Nagasaki was the most Christian city in Japan, and the massive cathedral was the largest Christian church in the Orient. Those baptized and confirmed Christian airmen, following their wartime orders to the letter, did their job efficiently, and they accomplished the mission with military pride, albeit with an astonishing number of near-fatal glitches in the mission. Most of us Americans would have done what the crew did if we had been in the shoes of the Bock’s Car crew. And, if we had never seen, heard or smelled the suffering humanity that the bomb caused on the ground, and if we had been treated as heroes in the aftermath, most of us would have experienced no remorse for our participation in what was retrospectively universally regarded as a war crime. Indeed, the use of the most monstrous weapons of mass destruction in the history of warfare, was later defined by the Nuremberg Tribunal as an international war crime and a crime against humanity. Of course, there was no way that the crew members knew that at the time of the mission. Some of the crew did admit that they had had some doubts about what they had participated in after the bomb actually detonated. But none of them actually witnessed the horrific suffering of the victims up close and personal. “Orders are orders” and disobedience in wartime is severely punishable, even by summary execution, so the crew obeyed the orders. Making It Hard for Japan To Surrender It had been only 3 days since the August 6th bomb had incinerated Hiroshima. The Nagasaki bomb was dropped amidst massive chaos and confusion in Tokyo, where the fascist military command was just beginning a meeting with the Emperor to discuss how to surrender with honor. The military and civilian leadership of both nations had known for months that Japan had lost the war. The only obstacle to ending the war had been the Allied Powers insistence on unconditional surrender, which meant that the Emperor Hirohito would have been removed from his figurehead position in Japan and perhaps even subjected to war crime trials. That demand was intolerable for the Japanese, who regarded the Emperor as a deity. The USSR had declared war against Japan the day before (August 8), hoping to regain territories lost to Japan in the humiliating (for Russia) Russo-Japanese War 40 years earlier, and Stalin’s army was now advancing across Manchuria. Russia’s entry into the war had been encouraged by President Truman before he knew of the success of the atom bomb test in New Mexico on July 16. But now, Truman and his strategists knew that the bomb could elicit Japan’s surrender without Stalin’s help. So, not wanting to divide any of the spoils of war with the USSR, and because the US wanted to send an early cold war message to Russia that the US was the new planetary superpower, Truman ordered bomber command to proceed with using the atomic bombs as weather permitted and as they became available (although no more fissionable material was actually available to make a fourth bomb). The Decision To Target Nagasaki August 1, 194,5 was the earliest deployment date for the Japanese bombing missions, and the Target Committee in Washington, D.C. had already developed a list of relatively un-damaged Japanese cities that were to be excluded from the conventional USAAF (US Army Air Force) fire-bombing campaigns (that, during the first half of 1945, had used napalm to burn to the ground over 60 essentially defenseless Japanese cities). The list of protected cities included Hiroshima, Niigata, Kokura, Kyoto and Nagasaki. Those five cities were to be off-limits to the terror bombings that the other cities were being subjected to. They were to be preserved as potential targets for the new “gimmick” weapon that had been researched and developed in labs and manufacturing plants all across America over the several years since the Manhattan Project had begun. Ironically, prior to August 6 and 9, the residents of those five cities considered themselves lucky for not having been bombed as had the other large cities. Little did the residents of Hiroshima and Nagasaki know that they were only being temporarily spared from an even worse carnage in an experiment with a new weapon that could cause the mass destruction of entire cities that were populated with hundreds of thousands of live human guinea pigs. The Trinity Test The first and only field test of an atomic bomb had been blasphemously code-named “Trinity” (a distinctly Christian term). That experiment had occurred in secrecy 3 weeks earlier at Alamogordo, New Mexico, on July 16, 1945. The results were impressively destructive, but the blast had just killed a few hapless coyotes, rabbits, snakes and some other desert varmints. That plutonium bomb at Alamogordo had been identical to the Nagasaki bomb. Trinity also produced huge amounts of an entirely new type of rock that was later called “Trinitite”. Trinitite was a radioactive molten lava rock that had been created from an intense heat that was twice the temperature of the sun. At 3 am on the morning of August 9, 1945, a B-29 Superfortress bomber (that had been “christened” Bock’s Car) took off from Tinian Island in the South Pacific, with the prayers and blessings of the crew’s Lutheran and Catholic chaplains. Barely making it off the runway before the heavily loaded plane went into the ocean (the bomb weighed 10,000 pounds), it headed north for Kokura, the primary target. Bock’s Car’s bomb was code-named “Fat Man,” partly because of its shape and partly to honor the rotund Winston Churchill. “Little Boy”, first called “Thin Man” (after President Roosevelt), was the code name of the uranium bomb that had been dropped on Hiroshima three days earlier. Nagasaki Was Being Incinerated as the Japan’s War Council Was Again Debating Surrender Terms Japan’s Supreme War Council in Tokyo, scheduled to convene their next meeting at 11 am on August 9, had absolutely no comprehension of what had really happened at Hiroshima. So the members were not inclined to heighten their sense of urgency concerning the issue of surrendering. The council was mostly concerned about Russia’s declaration of war than what was happening – as they were meeting – at Nagasaki. But it was already too late, because by the time the War Council members were arising and heading to the meeting with the emperor, there was no chance to alter the course of history. Bock’s Car – flying under radio silence – was already approaching the southern islands of Japan, heading for Kokura, the primary target. The crew was hoping to beat an anticipated typhoon and the clouds that would have caused the mission to be delayed. The Bock’s Car crew had instructions to drop the bomb only on visual sighting. But Kokura was clouded over. So after making three failed bomb runs over the clouded-over city and experiencing engine trouble on one of the four engines – using up valuable fuel all the while – the plane headed for its secondary target, Nagasaki. The History of Nagasaki Christianity Nagasaki is famous in the history of Japanese Christianity. The city had the largest concentration of Christians in all of Japan. St. Mary’s Cathedral was the megachurch of its time, with 12,000 baptized members. Nagasaki was the community where the legendary Jesuit missionary Francis Xavier planted a mission church in 1549. The Catholic community at Nagasaki grew and eventually prospered over the next several generations. However it eventually became clear to the Japanese that the Catholic Portuguese and Spanish commercial interests were exploiting Japan. It only took a couple of generations before all Europeans – and their foreign religion – were expelled from the country. From 1600 until 1850, being a Christian in Japan was a capital crime. In the early 1600s, Japanese Christians who refused to recant of their faith were subject to unspeakable tortures – including crucifixion. But after a mass crucifixion occurred, the reign of terror expired, and it appeared to all observers that Japanese Christianity was extinct. However, 250 years later, after the gunboat diplomacy of US Commodore Matthew Perry forced open an offshore island for American trade purposes, it was discovered that there were thousands of baptized Christians in Nagasaki, living their faith in secret in a catacomb-like existence, completely unknown to the government. With this revelation, the Japanese government started another purge; but because of international pressure, the persecutions were stopped and Nagasaki Christianity came up from the underground. By 1917, with no financial help from the government, the re-vitalized Christian community had built the massive St. Mary’s Cathedral in the Urakami River district of Nagasaki. Christians Killing Christians in the Name of Christ So it was the height of irony that the massive Cathedral – one of only two Nagasaki landmarks that could be positively identified from 31,000 feet up (the other one was the Mitsubishi armaments factory complex, which had run out of raw materials because of the Allied naval blockade) became Ground Zero for Fat Man. At 11:02 am, during Thursday morning mass, hundreds of Nagasaki Christians were boiled, evaporated, carbonized or otherwise disappeared in a scorching, radioactive fireball that exploded 500 meters above the cathedral. The black rain that soon came down from the mushroom cloud contained the mingled cellular remains of many Nagasaki Shintoists, Buddhists and Christians. The theological implications of Nagasaki’s Black Rain surely should boggle the minds of theologians of all denominations. The Nagasaki Christian Body Count Most Nagasaki Christians did not survive the blast. 6,000 of them died instantly, including all who were at confession that morning. Of the 12,000 church members, 8,500 of them eventually died as a result of the bomb. Many of the others were seriously sickened with a highly lethal entirely new disease: radiation sickness. Three orders of nuns and a Christian girl’s school nearby disappeared into black smoke or became chunks of charcoal. Tens of thousands of other innocent, non- Christian non-combatants also died instantly, and many more were mortally or incurably wounded. Some of the victim’s progeny are still suffering from the trans-generational malignancies and immune deficiencies caused by the deadly plutonium and other radioactive isotopes produced by the bomb. And here is one of the most important ironic points of this article: What the Japanese Imperial government could not do in 250 years of persecution (ie, to destroy Japanese Christianity) American Christians did in mere seconds. Even after a slow revival of Christianity since WWII, membership in Japanese churches still represents a small fraction of 1% of the general population, and the average attendance at Christian worship services across the nation reported to be only 30 per Sunday. Surely the decimation of Nagasaki at the end of the war crippled what at one time was a vibrant church. George Zabelka, the Catholic Chaplain for the 509th Composite Group Father George Zabelka was the Catholic chaplain for the 509th Composite Group (the 1500 man United States Army Air Force group whose only mission was to successfully deliver atomic bombs to their Japanese targets). Zabelka was one of the few Christian leaders who eventually came to recognize the serious contradictions between what his modern church had taught him and what the early pacifist church believed concerning homicidal violence. Several decades after Zabelka was discharged from the military chaplaincy, he finally concluded that both he and his church had made serious ethical and theological errors in religiously legitimating the organized mass slaughter that is modern war. He eventually came to understand that (as he articulated it) “the enemy of me and the enemy of my nation is not an enemy of God. Rather my enemy and my nation’s enemy is a child of God who is loved by God and who therefore is to be loved (and not to be killed) by me as a follower of a loving God.” Father Zabelka’s sudden conversion away from the standardized violence-tolerant Christianity changed his Detroit, Michigan ministry around 180 degrees. His absolute commitment to the truth of gospel nonviolence – just like Martin Luther King – inspired him to devote the remaining decades of his life to speaking out against violence in all its forms, including the violence of militarism, racism and economic exploitation. Zabelka travelled to Nagasaki on the 50th anniversary of the bombing, tearfully repenting and asking for forgiveness for the part he had played in the crime. Likewise, the Lutheran chaplain for the 509th, Pastor William Downey (formerly of Hope Evangelical Lutheran Church in Minneapolis, MN), in his counseling of soldiers who had become troubled by their participation in making murder for the state, later denounced all killing, whether by a single bullet or by weapons of mass destruction. Why Should Combat Veterans Embrace a Religion that Blessed the Wars that Ruined Their Souls? In Daniel Hallock’s important book, Hell, Healing and Resistance, the author described a 1997 Buddhist retreat that was led by the Buddhist monk Thich Nhat Hanh. The retreat involved a number of combat-traumatized Vietnam War veterans who had left the Christianity of their birth. The veterans had responded positively to Nhat Hanh’s ministrations. Hallock wrote, “Clearly, Buddhism offers something that cannot be found in institutional Christianity. But then why should veterans embrace a religion that has blessed the wars that ruined their souls? It is no wonder that they turn to a gentle Buddhist monk to hear what are, in large part, the truths of Christ.” Hallock’s comment should be a sobering wake-up call to Christian leaders who seem to regard as important both the recruitment of new members and the retention of old ones. The fact that the US is a highly militarized nation makes the truths of gospel nonviolence difficult to teach and preach, especially to military veterans (particularly the homeless ones) who may have lost their faith because of spiritually-traumatic horrors experienced on the battlefield. I am a retired physician who has dealt with hundreds of psychologically traumatized patients (including combat-traumatized war veterans), and I know that violence, in all its forms, can irretrievably damage the mind, body, brain, and spirit. But the fact that the combat-traumatized type is totally preventable – and oftentimes virtually impossible to fully cure – makes prevention work really important. An ounce of prevention is indeed worth a pound of cure when it comes to combat- induced PTSD. And where Christian churches should and could be instrumental in the prevention of homicidal violence (and the soul-destroying combat PTSD) is by counseling their members to not participate in it, as the ethics of the nonviolent Jesus surely guided the pacifist church in the first 3 centuries of its existence. Experiencing violence can be deadly and sometimes it is even contagious. I have seen violence, neglect, abuse and the resultant traumatic illnesses spread through both military and non-military families – even involving the 3rd and 4th generations after the initial victimizations. And that has been the experience of the hibakusha (the long-suffering atomic bomb survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki) and their progeny and it has been the experience of the warrior- perpetrators (and their victims) who experienced the acts of killing in any war, not just WWII. What Should be the Church’s Role in the Mass Slaughter of War? Years ago I saw an unpublished Veteran’s Administration study that showed that, whereas most Vietnam War-era soldiers were active members of Christian churches before they went off to war, if they came home with PTSD, the percentage returning to their faith community approached zero. Daniel Hallock’s sobering message above helps explain why that is so. Therefore the church – at least by its silence on the issue of war – seems to be promoting homicidal violence, contrary to the ethical teachings of Jesus, by failing to teach what the primitive church understood was one of the core teachings of Jesus, who said, in effect, that “violence is forbidden for those who wish to follow me”. Therefore, by refraining from warning their adolescent members about the faith- and soul-destroying realities of war, the church is directly undermining the “retention” strategies in which all churches engage. The hidden history of Nagasaki has valuable lessons for American Christianity. The Bock’s Car Crew and the Chain of Command The Bock’s Car bomber crew, as are conscripted or enlisted men in any war, was at the bottom of a long, complex, and very anonymous chain of command whose superiors demand unconditional obedience from those below them in the chain. The Bock’s Car crew had been ordered to “pull the trigger” of the lethal weapon that had been conceptualized, designed, funded, manufactured and armed by other entities, none of whom would feel morally responsible for doing the dirty deed. As is true in all wars, the soldier trigger-pullers are usually the ones blamed for the killing and therefore they often feel the post-war guilt that is a large part of combat-induced PTSD. However their religious chaplains who are responsible for the morals of their soldiers, may share their guilt feelings. Both groups are down at the bottom of the chain of command, but neither group knows exactly who they are trying to kill the “enemy” – or why. Hopefully this essay will promote needed discussions about the ethics of making murder for the state while simultaneously – and illogically – professing allegiance to the teachings of the nonviolent Jesus. The early church leaders, who knew the teachings and actions of Jesus best, rejected the nationalist, racist and militarist agendas of the national security agencies, the military-industrial complex, the war-profiteering corporations and the pre-Christian eye-for-an-eye retaliation doctrines that have, over the past 1700 years, enabled baptized Christians to willingly kill other Christians (not to mention non-Christians) in the name of Christ. The hidden history of Nagasaki should be instructive for a struggling American Christianity.
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#10. To: Lod (#9)
A few more months and the Japanese were going to drop bubonic plague on LA and Frisco. It had worked very well on the Chinese.
Hi - At that stage of the war, how were they gonna drop anything over here? “The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus
They had three submarines big enough to carry three single engine aircraft each. The subs would stand off shore of CA and drop fleas by the millions on LA and Frisco. There are photos of such subs on internet. Hundreds of thousands of Americans would have died. One such sub was located recently off Hawaii...
Thanks. This sounds goofy as hell, and I'll check it tomorrow. Out. “The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Hitler had aircraft able to fly non stop to New York with a 10,000lb payload. Not Moscow or London, NYC. However his A bomb was not ready. This country was a matter of months of having war on our shores.
That good, huh?
I think the bubonic plague flea drop was just some idle planner's brainstorm because those subs were deployed on more serious missions that would have obviated involvement in other harebrained schemes. Specifically, all four of the aircraft-carrying Jap subs were tasked with attacking the Panama canal and put it out of business. I believe it was the threatened invasion of Okinawa that pre-empted that operation, and the subs were called home. More to the point, the nuking of those two Japanese cities was the crowning glory of 20th century strategery. It put the nail in the coffin to the rather 18th century notion that war is a contest between opposing armies. Henceforth, war was to be a competition wherein the antagonists compete to grind each other's civilian population into the dirt--literally. That's progress. "If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan
I trust you're being facetious. The bastardized glories of that involvement have been used to justify every US aggression since. As we've already seen, the Japanese were already working out surrender terms to offer -- FDR knew it and bombed anyway etc. etc.
Not hardly. Its all there to be read by anyone interested. The US brought all five subs to the US because we knew nothing about them. The Japanese tried the process on the Chinese first, killing untold thousands. The subs were real and the means of delivery. Russia demanded one sub to study, that is why all were sent to the bottom by our navy. They were better than anything the Germans ever built, able to sail around the world without refueling.
the US had gone to a great deal of trouble and expense to make those two bombs, and it had to demonstrate them to the world.
Trouble and expense? Japan, Germany and Russia were all in the race BEFORE we started. Only the the naive would doubt that any of the three would have hesitated one moment to drop them on us had they won the race.
Ada, you are terribly naive. The bombs
ended the war in 6-days, as opposed to what would have been a full invasion of
the island by US forces. The cost of that invasion in terms of Japanese &
Americans lives has been estimated to be more than a million civilians &
military. Furthermore, the fanatical Japanese were accused and found guilty of
*war crimes*, not "a crime against humanity" which is a phrase used when
civilian lives are lost. For a full feel of Japanese war crimes, see the Rape of
Nanking and the Bataan Death March..
Cynicom: The US brought all five subs to the US because we knew nothing about them. The Japanese tried the process on the Chinese first, killing untold thousands. The subs were real and the means of delivery. Russia demanded one sub to study, that is why all were sent to the bottom by our navy. They were better than anything the Germans ever built, able to sail around the world without refueling. I have to believe that there probably is something of substance to the flea bombing biowarfare supposition (other than the China accounts) because, years ago, I was talking with a WWII Vet about the Pacific War Theatre ... Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa ... and he said that he saw more men killed by sickness from fleas in the grass and roundabout than by bullets. Am not sure now why I didn't ask more about that but think he was busy at the time and, even though I was very surprised to hear it, I knew he wasn't joking. Perhaps Japanese subs did flea bomb those areas with a plague but how could they then expect to occupy those places Militarily without getting sick or dying from being bit too? Seems to me, if so, that they wouldn't have intended to stay at those places -- just destroy their opponents; or maybe it wasn't actually fleas in the grass that were lethal, as it seemed, but some sort of chemical launch that killed people and fleas could somehow survive to be thought the cause. Plague by fleabite wasn't spreading wider to civilian populations in the region, afaik. What might possibly have happened atrociously or not isn't cause enough, imo, to kill many thousands of civilians including children by the heinous Manhattan Project WMDs. For that matter, how certain can we really be that it was a Japanese sub which sank the USS Indianapolis after it had delievered the Manhattan Project's nuc-wares for deployment? Even if they did it, that wouldn't explain why the crew were left abandoned by their Commanders for days to die like shark bait but the Manhattan Project's insidious involvement does. ------- "They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
The Japanese had stockpiled ammunition, airplanes, artillery, and fuel. They were prepared to fight to the death in an upcoming invasion that Fall. The Japanese would have largely ceased to exist as a race and a nation if the invasion had proceeded. You've seen pictures of the aftermath of battle on Okinawa? Japan would have looked the same.
#11. To: Cynicom (#10)
#12. To: Lod (#11)
(Edited)
At that stage of the war, how were they gonna drop anything over here?
#13. To: Lod (#11)
#14. To: Cynicom (#13)
#15. To: Lod (#14)
#16. To: Cynicom (#10)
A few more months and the Japanese were going to drop bubonic plague on LA and Frisco.
#17. To: NeoconsNailed (#16)
#18. To: randge (#17)
#19. To: randge (#17)
I think the bubonic plague flea drop was just some idle planner's brainstorm because those subs were deployed on more serious missions that would have obviated involvement in other harebrained schemes.
#20. To: Jethro Tull (#1)
#21. To: Ada (#20)
the US had gone to a great deal of trouble and expense to make those two bombs, and it had to demonstrate them to the world.
#22. To: Ada (#20)
Nuremberg Tribunal as an international war crime and a crime
against humanity
#23. To: Dakmar (#5)
Bomb Nagasaki and never look backie!
#24. To: Cynicom, randge (#19)
(Edited)
randge: I think the bubonic plague flea drop was just some idle planner's brainstorm because those subs were deployed on more serious missions that would have obviated involvement in other harebrained schemes. Not hardly. Its all there to be read by anyone interested.
#25. To: Ada (#20)
-Alex Kurtagic
#26. To: GreyLmist (#24)
Reading from the Japanese records. On their test on the Chinese, they lost 1500 of their own men in the test. It is all there on the internet to read. As for the Indianapolis, at the Commanders Navy trial after the war, the Japanese sub commander was brought here to testify how he sank the cruiser. Photos of trial. Also there are numerous survivor accounts. All available for research. but how could they then expect to occupy those places Militarily without getting sick or dying from being bit too?
#27. To: Cynicom (#26)
Just the alleged sub commander was brought here to testify? We were occupying Japan, so I don't see why he and the entire sub crew wouldn't have been testifying right there. Sounds like it was cheaper to bribe the alleged sub commander as if an actual witness than hire a full crew's number to give false testimony in deflection of why the crew of the Indianapolis was deliberately abandoned to die. Probably no Manhattan Project testifiers were subpoenaed at all, I'm guessing. Since the Manhattan Project devastations are still being endorsed on the grounds of strategic pre-emptive war planning, I'll reiterate that Eisenhower, the Allied Supreme Commander himself and the top-level Admiralty of our Naval forces, among others of official rank, all asserted that our Navy's blockade was working and Japan was moving to surrender before the Manhattan Project robbed our Navy of their victory for its inhumanely hideous aggrandizement and continued enrichments. As for the Indianapolis, at the Commanders Navy trial after the war, the Japanese sub commander was brought here to testify how he sank the cruiser. Photos of trial. Also there are numerous survivor accounts. All available for research.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#28. To: Cynicom (#26) (Edited)
On their test on the Chinese, they lost 1500 of their own men in the test. It is all there on the internet to read. I sometimes suspect their Emperor approved the Manhattan Project bombings as a depopulation method. Luckily, Australia is a sizable continent or, being an island nation like Britain and Japan, it too might tend more towards imperialism, as they have, to acquire more space for its population and/or to reduce their population through war aggressions. Reading from the Japanese records.
-------
"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#29. To: GreyLmist (#28)
Aussies will have to begin breeding like bunny rabbits to ever overpopulate their continent.
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
#30. To: GreyLmist (#27)
Where did that come from??? Totally false, go back and read military history. why the crew of the Indianapolis was deliberately abandoned to die.
-Alex Kurtagic
#31. To: GreyLmist (#27)
At 12:14 a.m. on July 30, 1945, the USS Indianapolis was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine in the Philippine Sea and sank in 12 minutes. Of 1,196 men on board, approximately 300 went down with the ship. The remainder, about 900 men, were left floating in shark-infested waters with no lifeboats and most with no food or water. The ship was never missed, and by the time the survivors were spotted by accident four days later only 316 men were still alive. The ship's captain, the late Charles Butler McVay III, survived and was court- martialed and convicted of "hazarding his ship by failing to zigzag" despite overwhelming evidence that the Navy itself had placed the ship in harm's way, despite testimony from the Japanese submarine commander that zigzagging would have made no difference
-Alex Kurtagic
#32. To: GreyLmist (#27)
Mochitsura Hashimoto Mochitsura Hashimoto was the commander of the Japanese submarine I-58 which sank the USS Indianapolis. He died on October 25, 2000, at the age of 91, having spent the last years of his life as a Shinto priest in Kyoto, Japan. For reasons which will be explained, his death saddened many Indianapolis survivors. His path was to cross theirs again in years to come. When the decision was made in November of 1945 to court-martial Captain McVay, a decision was also made to bring Hashimoto to the trial as a witness, and a military plane was dispatched to Japan with an armed escort to bring him to Washington. Public animosity toward the Japanese was still very high, and using Hashimoto, so recently an enemy, as a witness against a decorated American officer created a storm of controversy both in the media and in the halls of Congress. Dan Kurzman interviewed Hashimoto for his 1990 book "Fatal Voyage," however, and wrote "Commander Hashimoto was amazed by the Americans. While penned up in his dormitory during the trial, he was treated more like an honored guest than an enemy officer who had caused the deaths of so many American boys." (His treatment by the Navy undoubtedly stemmed from the fact that he was to be one of their witnesses in the prosecution of Captain McVay. The charge against Captain McVay was that he had hazarded his ship by failing to zigzag at the time Hashimoto's torpedoes struck, and Hashimoto confounded the prosecution by stating that he would have been able to sink the Indianapolis whether it had been zigzagging or not, testimony which appeared to have no impact at all on the court-martial board which found McVay guilty anyway, and Hashimoto was returned to Japan. Just the alleged sub commander was brought here to testify? We were occupying Japan, so I don't see why he and the entire sub crew wouldn't have been testifying right there. Sounds like it was cheaper to bribe the alleged sub commander
-Alex Kurtagic
#33. To: Ada, 4 (#0) (Edited)
... Nagasaki has valuable lessons for American Christianity. ... Nagasaki should be instructive for a struggling American Christianity. Moment of silence at criticalpast.com: Stock Footage - A damaged shrine, a catholic kindergarten and the Urakami Cathedral in Nagasaki, Japan. [Video] Location: Nagasaki Japan A survey of physical damage of bomb blasts in Nagasaki, Japan after World War II. A [not much] damaged shrine which was built to house a picture of a Japanese emperor. Blast effect on a bronze door. The [much intact] shrine in rubble on the ground. [Much intact] Mitsubishi Ordnance Plant in the background. Damaged building of a catholic kindergarten. Damaged Urakami Cathedral. Concrete monolithic dome of the cathedral lying in a gully. The back of the cathedral as seen from the corner of a structure. This historic stock footage available in HD and SD video. [@ Add to Lightbox option] Doctoral Author: Gary G. Kohls, MD
Date: 1945, November
Duration: 1 min 16 sec
Sound: NO SOUND
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#34. To: X-15 (#32)
The upper reaches of our command probably contained quite as many cover-your- ass hypocrites and backstabbers as the Japanese general staff had finely honed sadists and uniformed savages. It's hard to know who you have greater contempt for. The charge against Captain McVay was that he had hazarded his ship by failing to zigzag at the time Hashimoto's torpedoes struck, and Hashimoto confounded the prosecution by stating that he would have been able to sink the Indianapolis whether it had been zigzagging or not, testimony which appeared to have no impact at all on the court-martial board which found McVay guilty anyway, and Hashimoto was returned to Japan.
"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan
#35. To: Jethro Tull (#23)
"If ignorance is truly bliss, then why do so many Americans need Prozac?" - Dave McGowan
#36. To: X-15 (#31)
Odd note... The Indianapolis was on its way to the Philippines to join the fleet that would invade Japan. Those among us that are TV educated, sometimes exasperate me. It is stamped on their forehead.
#37. To: X-15 (#31)
The ship's captain, the late Charles Butler McVay III, survived and was court-martialed and convicted of "hazarding his ship by failing to zigzag" despite overwhelming evidence that the Navy itself had placed the ship in harm's way, despite testimony from the Japanese submarine commander that zigzagging would have made no difference ussindianapolis.org/ [Text source] Post #32: Text + source link: ussindianapolis.org/hashimoto.htm Aditional Text excerpts below: Meanwhile, some very interesting comments by Hashimoto were revealed in an English translation of his interview with the same journalist who acted as the go-between in arranging his letter to Senator Warner. Here are some excerpts from that interview in which Hashimoto speaks about his involvement in the court-martial of Captain McVay: "I understand English a little bit even then, so I could see at the time I testified that the translator did not tell fully what I said. I mean it was not because of the capacity of the translator. I would say the Navy side did not accept some testimony that were inconvenient to them ... I was then an officer of the beaten country, you know, and alone, how could I complain strong enough?" When asked how he would feel to have his views known about the court-martial, here was his response: "I would feel great. It will be pleasant. No matter what the occasion would be. Because at the time of the court-martial I had a feeling that it was contrived from the beginning" and "I wonder the outcome of that court-martial was set from the beginning." USS Indianapolis (CA-35) - Wikipedia; Excerpts: Navy failure to learn of the sinking Operations plotting boards were kept at the Headquarters of Commander Marianas on Guam and of the Commander Philippine Sea Frontier on Leyte. On these boards, the positions of all vessels of which the headquarters was concerned were plotted. However, for ships as large as the Indianapolis, it was assumed that they would reach their destinations on time, unless reported otherwise. Therefore, their positions were based on predictions, and not on reports. On 31 July, when she should have arrived at Leyte, Indianapolis was removed from the board in the headquarters of Commander Marianas. She was also recorded as having arrived at Leyte by the headquarters of Commander Philippine Sea Frontier. Lieutenant Stuart B. Gibson, the Operations Officer under the Port Director, Tacloban, was the officer responsible for tracking the movements of Indianapolis. The vessel's failure to arrive on schedule was known at once to Lieutenant Gibson, who failed to investigate the matter and made no immediate report of the fact to his superiors.[17] The Indianapolis sent distress calls before sinking. Three stations received the signals; however, none acted upon the call. One commander was drunk, another had ordered his men not to disturb him and a third thought it was a Japanese trap. [18] For a long time the Navy denied that a distress call had been sent. The receipt of the call came to light only after the release of declassified records. Immediately prior to the attack, the seas had been moderate, the visibility fluctuating but poor in general, and Indianapolis had been steaming at 17 kn (20 mph; 31 km/h). When the ship did not reach Leyte on the 31st, as scheduled, no report was made that she was overdue. This omission was due to a misunderstanding of the Movement Report System. Captain Charles McVay Captain Charles B. McVay III, who had commanded Indianapolis since November 1944, survived the sinking and was with those rescued days later. In November 1945, he was court-martialed and convicted of "hazarding his ship by failing to zigzag." Several things about the court-martial were controversial. There was evidence that the Navy itself had placed the ship in harm's way, in that McVay's orders were to "zigzag at his discretion, weather permitting." Further, Mochitsura Hashimoto, commander of I-58, testified that zigzagging would have made no difference.[19] Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz remitted McVay's sentence and restored him to active duty. McVay retired in 1949 as a Rear Admiral.[20] While many of Indianapolis 's survivors said McVay was not to blame for the sinking, the families of some of the men who died thought otherwise: "Merry Christmas! Our family's holiday would be a lot merrier if you hadn't killed my son", read one piece of mail.[21] The guilt that was placed on his shoulders mounted until he committed suicide in 1968, using his Navy-issue revolver. McVay was discovered on his front lawn with a toy sailor in one hand.[21] He was 70 years old. The day the Indianapolis was sunk was his 47th birthday. In October 2000, the United States Congress passed a resolution that Captain McVay's record should state that "he is exonerated for the loss of Indianapolis." President Bill Clinton signed the resolution.[22] The resolution noted that although several hundred ships of the U.S. Navy were lost in combat in World War II, McVay was the only captain to be court-martialed for the sinking of his ship.[23] In July 2001, the Secretary of the Navy ordered McVay's record cleared of all wrongdoing.[24][25] USS Indianapolis CA-35: Captain McVay; Excerpts: Captain McVay's orders were to "zigzag at his discretion." Zigzagging is a naval maneuver used to avoid torpedo attack, generally considered most effective once the torpedoes have been launched. No Navy directives in force at that time or since recommended, much less ordered, zigzagging at night in poor visibility. At about 11pm on Sunday night, July 29, the Indianapolis traveling alone was about halfway across the Philippine Sea. There was heavy cloud cover with visibility severely limited. Captain McVay gave orders to cease zigzagging and retired to his cabin. Minutes later the ship was spotted as an indistinct blur by Japanese submarine commander Mochitura Hasimoto of the I-58. It was coming directly toward him from the east. Shortly after midnight the ship was struck by two torpedoes and sank in about twelve minutes. When the ship failed to arrive at Leyte on Tuesday morning, a series of blunders ensued. First, there was confusion as to which area the Indianapolis was to report when it arrived. Second, there was no directive to report the non-arrival of a combatant ship. And, third, there was no request to retransmit a garbled message which would have clarified the Indianapolis' arrival time. As a result, the surviving crew of the Indianapolis was left floating in shark-infested waters until 11am on Thursday, August 2, when Lt. Wilbur C. Gwinn, the pilot of a Ventura scout-bomber, lost the weight from his navigational antenna trailing behind the plane, a loss which was to save the lives of 316 men. While crawling back through the fuselage of his plane to repair the thrashing antenna, Gwinn happened to glance down at the sea and noticed a long oil slick. Back in the cockpit, Gwinn dropped down to investigate, spotted men floating in the sea, and radioed for help. At 3:30 that afternoon Lt. R. Adrian Marks, flying a PBY Catalina, was the first to arrive on the scene. Horrified at the sight of sharks attacking men below him, Marks landed his flying boat in the sea, and, pulling a survivor aboard, he was the first to learn of the Indianapolis disaster. The Court-Martial "The charge upon which he was convicted for failing to zigzag contained a phrase 'in good visibility.' The visibility that night was NOT good as all of us know who were there that night." From statement submitted at September 1999 Senate hearing by Paul J. Murphy, USS Indianapolis survivor Upon their rescue by different vessels, the Indianapolis survivors were scattered at various Pacific bases. Captain McVay was taken to Guam where he faced a board of inquiry ordered by Fleet Admiral Chester Nimitz (CINCPAC) which convened on August 13, one day before the sinking of the ship was announced to the public (simultaneously with the announcement that the Japanese had surrendered, thus insuring minimum press attention). Conceding that they "were starting the proceedings without having available all the necessary data," the board nonetheless recommended a general court-martial for McVay. Admiral Nimitz, however, did not agree and on September 6, six weeks after the disaster, wrote to the Navy's Judge Advocate General opposing a court-martial and stating that at worst McVay was guilty of an error in judgment, but not gross negligence. Nimitz recommended a letter of reprimand which constituted a slap on the wrist but was far from career-ending punishment. In a CINCPAC report, Nimitz pointed out that the rule requiring zigzagging would not have applied in any event since McVay's orders gave him discretion on that matter and thus took precedence over all other orders (a point which, unbelievably, was never made by McVay's defense counsel during the subsequent court-martial). Overriding the opposition of both Nimitz and Admiral Raymond Spruance (for whom the Indianapolis had served as Fifth Fleet flagship), naval authorities in Washington, specifically Secretary of the Navy James Forrestal and Admiral Ernest King, Chief of Naval Operations, directed that court-martial proceedings be held against McVay, and the trial was scheduled to begin on December 3, 1945, at the Washington Navy Yard. Captain McVay was notified but not told what specific charges would be brought against him. The reason was simple. The Navy had not yet decided what to charge him with. Four days before the trial began they did decide on two charges. One, failing to issue orders to abandon ship in a timely fashion. And, two, hazarding his vessel by failing to zigzag during good visibility. Captain McVay was denied his first choice of defense counsel, and a Captain John P. Cady was selected for him. McVay was also denied a delay to develop his defense, and thus Cady, a line officer with no trial experience, had only four days to prepare his case. It's difficult to understand why the Navy brought the first charge against McVay. Explosions from the torpedo attacks had knocked out the ship's communications system, making it impossible to give an abandon ship order to the crew except by word of mouth which McVay had done. He was ultimately found not guilty on this count. That left the second charge of failing to zigzag. Incredibly, the Navy brought the commander of the Japanese submarine, Mochitura Hashimoto, to testify at the court-martial which was held at the Washington Navy Yard. Hashimoto implied in pretrial statements that zigzagging would not have saved the Indianapolis but was not pressed on this point during the trial itself. One prosecution witness which they wished they had never called was a veteran Navy submariner named Glynn Donaho. A four-time Navy Cross winner during the way, Donaho was asked by McVay's defense counsel whether "it would have been more or less difficult for you to attain the proper firing position" if the Indianapolis had been zigzagging under the conditions which existed that night. His answer was, "No, not as long as I could see the target." It was either deliberately ignored by (or passed over the heads of) the court-martial board, and it was not pursued by McVay's defense. There was also information withheld from McVay's defense counsel. It involved the testimony of a Captain Oliver Naquin who had been in charge of the routing instructions for the Indianapolis from Guam to Leyte. When asked about the risk of enemy submarine activity in the ship's path, Naquin replied "it was a low order" and "the risk was very slight." Being responsible for sending the Indianapolis across the Philippine Sea without a destroyer escort, Naquin's response served him well. Later it was learned that Naquin was aware of the submarines in McVay's path, had not told McVay and denied McVay's request for a destroyer escort. Perhaps the most egregious aspect of McVay's ultimate conviction for failing to zigzag, however, was in the phrasing of the charge itself. The phrase was "during good visibility." According to all accounts of the survivors, including eye-witness accounts of survivors only recently declassified and not made available to McVay's defense at the trial, the visibility that night was severely limited with heavy cloud cover. This is pertinent for two reasons. First, as stated in an earlier section, no Navy directives in force at that time suggested, much less ordered, zigzagging at night with visibility limited. Second, McVay's orders were "to zigzag at his discretion." Thus, when he stopped zigzagging, he was simply following procedures set forth by Navy directives. It is reasonable to assume from the evidence that a decision to convict McVay was made before his court-martial began. The survivors of the Indianapolis are convinced that he was made a scapegoat to hide the mistakes of others, mistakes which included sending him into harm's way without warning and failing to notice when the Indianapolis failed to arrive on schedule, thus costing hundreds of lives unnecessarily and creating the greatest sea disaster in the history o the United States Navy. McVay was found guilty on the charge of failing to zigzag. The court sentenced him to lose 100 numbers in his temporary rank of Captain and 100 numbers in his permanent rank of Commander, thus ruining his Navy career. In 1946, at the behest of Admiral Nimitz who had become Chief of Naval Operations, Secretary Forrestal remitted McVay's sentence and restored him to duty. McVay served out his time in the New Orleans Naval District and retired in 1949 with the rank of Rear Admiral. He took his own life in 1968. A Remarkable Parallel to the Story of Captain McVay Charles Butler McVay III is not the only sea captain to be blamed by authorities for a disaster beyond his control. There is another officer, Captain William Thomas Turner of the Lusitania, whose experience was remarkably similar following the 1915 sinking of his ship off the southern coast of Ireland with the loss of more than 1,200 civilians and crew. It was a disaster often given as the reason for the entrance two years later of the United States into World War I. As was the case with Captain McVay, Captain Turner's ship was sunk by torpedoes, and he survived only to be summoned before a British Admiralty board of inquiry anxious to find a scapegoat for such a tragedy. As was the case with Captain McVay, Captain Turner had not been adequately warned of the submarine threat in his path, and the subsequent inquiry -- at which evidence clearing him of blame for the Lusitania's loss was withheld -- left a shameful smear on his name for the rest of his life. We have established contact with the Lusitania Historical Society, and we are proud to salute them for their efforts to clear Captain Turner's name. We both cherish the memories of two gallant sea captains who suffered a similar injustice, but whose reputations have been restored, albeit long after both men were dead, by the passage of time and by the disclosure of facts not revealed at their trials. Note: Am posting this info now for comment later. Post #31: Text copy
At 12:14 a.m. on July 30, 1945, the USS Indianapolis was torpedoed by a Japanese submarine in the Philippine Sea and sank in 12 minutes. Of 1,196 men on board, approximately 300 went down with the ship. The remainder, about 900 men, were left floating in shark-infested waters with no lifeboats and most with no food or water. The ship was never missed, and by the time the survivors were spotted by accident four days later only 316 men were still alive.
Hashimoto's letter received press attention during the effort to clear Captain McVay's name, and, as a result, it no doubt helped in getting Congress to exonerate him. For some reason, however, it was not included in the Senate Armed Services Committee report.
She was flagship for Admiral Raymond Spruance while he commanded the Fifth Fleet in battles across the Central Pacific. Her sinking led to the greatest single loss of life at sea in the history of the U.S. Navy. On 30 July 1945, after delivering parts for the first atomic bomb to the United States air base at Tinian, the ship was torpedoed
http://ussindianapolis.org/mcvay.htm the Indianapolis set sail for Leyte on July 26, 1945, sent into harm's way with its captain unaware of dangers which shore-based naval personnel knew were in his path.
http://www.lusitania.net/
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#38. To: GreyLmist (#37)
The Indianapolis was steaming under strict orders to maintain total radio/communication silence due to it's mission. Nobody was expecting any radio transmission from that ship, which added to the delay in the search for it after it was overdue.
-Alex Kurtagic
#39. To: Cynicom (#36) (Edited)
It is stamped on their forehead. TV educated ... sounds oxymoronic. I'll figure that must mean the "quickest-draw" posters here, which surely ain't me and the only thing on my forehead is some wrinkles, mostly from squinting to read. Although, I was sort of listening to something on TV recently about the Spanish-American war ... Yellow-Journalism/propaganda deceits described by a descendant of newpaper mogul William Randolph Hearst as just intended to make daily life of the populace less mundane, not actually make war. I didn't believe that at all and also suspected that there was a purposeful quote-misattribution to seem as if Hearst was instructed to merely furnish the war's pictures and Teddy Roosevelt would furnish the war or some such disinfo. The only educating thing I heard was that America had some concentration camps in Cuba but, what I think is even more germane is that there hasn't been an interminable ruckus about it all these years, demands for reparations, thought policings and so on, as with other issues. Likewise with Britain's Boer War concentration camp system. Same with the Siberia gulags. Just one of those kizmet-type of things, I imagine. Those among us that are TV educated, sometimes exasperate me.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#40. To: GreyLmist (#39)
Covers those that have not educated themselves. TV educated ... sounds oxymoronic.
#41. To: randge (#35)
Interesting stuff here. I'm now a Red Foley fan.
#42. To: X-15 (#38) (Edited)
Radio silence is understandable but distress signals were sent that other ships recieved then ignored, Titanic-style. [Post# 37 Refs.] And then there's this -- something inexplicable even to Wikipedia's chroniclers, apparently: Gibson's name isn't even linked there, as if anything to do with his negligence is just trivia. The Indianapolis wasn't a ship on a standard war mission. It was the flagship of the 5th Fleet's Admiral on a Manhattan Project mission. I can only speculate at this point what cargo it might have been bringing back to port with it. Maybe the entire crew would have been kept out of the loop if it was covert. A parallel between the Indianapolis and the Lusitania was made but there are many other parallel patterns too ... with the Titanic, the Pearl Harbor Attack and misplaced blame, D-Day supposed "blunders" that increased our casualties by magnitudes, the USS Liberty... The lifejackets of the Indianapolis crew were even designed to start failing after about 36 hours, like D-Day floatation devices were also deadly. Public Relations and repairing Japan's image for commericalizations had replaced the war agenda by the time of McVay's court-martial, which was clearly not about justice or discovery but about making America look fair-minded towards its former war enemy by punishing McVay ["n-bomb deliveryman"], or appearing to do so, and Japan more forgivable for the war, as well as kindly forgiving so soon after being struck with the Manhattan Project's mega-bomb terrors. As it reportedly turned out: Like McVay, Forrestal allegedly committed suicide, too, but evidence indicates that it's more probable he was killed. The Manhattan Project involvement of McVay and Forrestal is a suspicious linkage, imo. And was the Manhattan Project so financially costly that our government couldn't afford better lifejackets for the crew? Doubtless, the answer to that is: No. But I can't even think of a logical reason for why it would purchase lifejackets designed to fail, much less posture after having done that as if it never would have occurred to even the Admiral of the 5th Fleet that his flagship might have been sunk; not merely days late on getting back to port after a classified secret-mission. Court-martialing McVay doesn't explain why there's no indication of court-martialing Lieutenant Stuart B. Gibson, who knew the ship was missing but didn't report it. The atrocity and injustices of what happened to the Indianapolis and its crew are made more egregious when chalked up to "war blunders" and "stuff happens". Even "intel failures" is no excuse for the abandonments of concern about them and a proper investigation. The Indianapolis was steaming under strict orders to maintain total radio/communication silence due to it's mission. Nobody was expecting any radio transmission from that ship, which added to the delay in the search for it after it was overdue.
On 31 July, when she should have arrived at Leyte, Indianapolis was removed from the board in the headquarters of Commander Marianas. She was also recorded as having arrived at Leyte by the headquarters of Commander Philippine Sea Frontier. Lieutenant Stuart B. Gibson, the Operations Officer under the Port Director, Tacloban, was the officer responsible for tracking the movements of Indianapolis. The vessel's failure to arrive on schedule was known at once to Lieutenant Gibson, who failed to investigate the matter and made no immediate report of the fact to his superiors.[17]
In 1946, at the behest of Admiral Nimitz who had become Chief of Naval Operations, Secretary Forrestal remitted McVay's sentence and restored him to duty. McVay served out his time in the New Orleans Naval District and retired in 1949 with the rank of Rear Admiral. He took his own life in 1968.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#43. To: GreyLmist (#42)
That is trying to spin flax into gold. All of that is beyond absurd. The Manhattan Project involvement of McVay and Forrestal is a suspicious linkage, imo.
#44. To: Cynicom (#43)
That is trying to spin flax into gold. All of that is beyond absurd. Well, I think it's like absurd that a credible judge would just call all of it that without so much as a single counterpoint. Spinning flax unreasonably into more like fool's gold is what I'd call pat pretenses as if people are never deliberately killed conspiratorially. The Manhattan Project involvement of McVay and Forrestal is a suspicious linkage, imo.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#45. To: GreyLmist (#42)
Ummmm....Nothing. It was DELIVERING the third nuke to Tinian. I can only speculate at this point what cargo it might have been bringing back to port with it.
-Alex Kurtagic
#46. To: GreyLmist (#42)
Conspiracyconspiracyconspriacyblahblahblah.....good thing no airliners were involved or you'd be saying that the Indianapolis was kidnapped and STILL being held captive on a secret remote island. Oh, hey, looks like your MH-17 conspiracy blew up in your face when a part of the wing washed up on that island off the coast of Africa. Still believe it was hijacked and flown to a remote airfield in Shangri-La????? Lolololol!!!!!!
-Alex Kurtagic
#47. To: X-15 (#46) (Edited)
Oh, hey, looks like your MH-17 conspiracy blew up in your face when a part of the wing washed up on that island off the coast of Africa. Still believe it was hijacked and flown to a remote airfield in Shangri-La????? Lolololol!!!!!! I underlined some facts of the Indianapolis case at #42 which should indicate that our Military ought not to be lulled into believing that there couldn't be such a thing as enemy agents inside trying to sabotage and kill them, or on such scales, as your policy of "no real conspiracies" and "official versions always right" dangerously promotes. I don't know what you mean by my MH-17 conspiracy. About the only thing I've said of it is that whoever sent it into a warzone is a responsible party to the shootdown and have asked repeatedly for them to be named. Anyone who might think that the USS Liberty was improperly investigated and possibly intended for all aboard to be lost shouldn't have such aversion to viewing the Indianapolis similarly. If you just want to read official histories as the only acceptable questions and explanations plausibly considerable, you could easily get those elsewhere. Conspiracyconspiracyconspriacyblahblahblah.....good thing no airliners were involved or you'd be saying that the Indianapolis was kidnapped and STILL being held captive on a secret remote island.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#48. To: X-15 (#45) (Edited)
I know that it had delivered n-bomb freight items. That doesn't mean it couldn't also have been delivering something else on the way back. Ummmm....Nothing. It was DELIVERING the third nuke to Tinian.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
#49. To: X-15 (#46) (Edited)
I'm gonna guess that you meant MH-370 rather than MH-17 in your retort. I'm not as faith-based about what happened to it as you. Prove the alleged wing-part wasn't planted where it was said to have been found.
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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC
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