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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: General Hayden: Probable Wha...?
Source: Daily Kos
URL Source: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/1/23/18342/1340
Published: Jan 23, 2006
Author: mcjoan
Post Date: 2006-01-24 21:34:56 by robin
Keywords: Probable, General, Hayden:
Views: 32
Comments: 8

General Hayden: Probable Wha...?

by mcjoan

Mon Jan 23, 2006 at 04:34:02 PM PDT

To follow up on georgia10's post below, here is an interesting exchange between reporter Jonathan Landay and General Hayden:

QUESTION: Jonathan Landay with Knight Ridder. I'd like to stay on the same issue, and that had to do with the standard by which you use to target your wiretaps. I'm no lawyer, but my understanding is that the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution specifies that you must have probable cause to be able to do a search that does not violate an American's right against unlawful searches and seizures. Do you use --

GEN. HAYDEN: No, actually -- the Fourth Amendment actually protects all of us against unreasonable search and seizure. That's what it says.

QUESTION: But the measure is probable cause, I believe.

GEN. HAYDEN: The amendment says unreasonable search and seizure.

QUESTION: But does it not say probable --

GEN. HAYDEN: No. The amendment says unreasonable search and seizure.. . .

Wow! General Hayden sure seems pretty sure about what the Fourth Amendment says doesn't he? Thats reassuring, no? In fact Hayden says this:

GEN. HAYDEN . . . Just to be very clear -- and believe me, if there's any amendment to the Constitution that employees of the National Security Agency are familiar with, it's the Fourth. And it is a reasonableness standard in the Fourth Amendment. And so what you've raised to me -- and I'm not a lawyer, and don't want to become one -- what you've raised to me is, in terms of quoting the Fourth Amendment, is an issue of the Constitution. The constitutional standard is "reasonable." And we believe -- I am convinced that we are lawful because what it is we're doing is reasonable."

Phew! And here we were worried that the NSA was trampling Fourth Amendment rights. Thank Gawd NSA employees are familiar with the Fourth Amendment and know it like the back of their hand, right? Uh, maybe not:

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

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#1. To: robin (#0)

He polished up the handle so carefully, that now he is a general in the Bush army.

MUDDOG  posted on  2006-01-25   9:51:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If the government can always conduct a warrantless search so long as it is "reasonable", and that does not require meeting a probable cause standard, why should it ever seek a warrant, which does require a showing of probable cause?

aristeides  posted on  2006-01-25   10:11:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

lol! How did you know I've been humming a few bars of HMS Pinafore lately? This fits so many of the sycophant neocons.

Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
When I was a lad I served a term
As office boy to an Attorney's firm.
I cleaned the windows and I swept the floor,
And I polished up the handle of the big front door.
Chorus:
He polished up the handle of the big front door.
Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
I polished up that handle so carefullee
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Chorus:
He polished up that handle so carefullee,
That now he is the ruler of the Queen's Navee.

Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
As office boy I made such a mark
That they gave me the post of a junior clerk.
I served the writs with a smile so bland,
And I copied all the letters in a big round hand--
Chorus:
He copied all the letters in a big round hand.
Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
I copied all the letters in a hand so free,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Chorus:
He copied all the letters in a hand so free,
That now he is the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
In serving writs I made such a name
That an articled clerk I soon became;
I wore clean collars and a brand-new suit
For the pass examination at the Institute,
Chorus:
For the pass examination at the Institute.
Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
And that pass examination did so well for me,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Chorus:
That pass examination did so well for he,
That now he is the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
Of legal knowledge I acquired such a grip
That they took me into the partnership.
And that junior partnership, I ween,
Was the only ship that I ever had seen.
Chorus:
Was the only ship that he ever had seen.
Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
But that kind of ship so suited me,
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Chorus:
But that kind of ship so suited he,
That now he is the ruler of the Queen's Navee!

Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
I grew so rich that I was sent
By a pocket borough into Parliament.
I always voted at my party's call,
And I never thought of thinking for myself at all.
Chorus:
He never thought of thinking for himself at all.
Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
I thought so little, they rewarded me
By making me the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!
Chorus:
He thought so little, they rewarded he
By making him the Ruler of the Queen's Navee!

Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
Now landsmen all, whoever you may be,
If you want to rise to the top of the tree,
If your soul isn't fettered to an office stool,
Be careful to be guided by this golden rule
Chorus:
Be careful to be guided by this golden rule.
Sir Joseph Porter, KCB:
Stick close to your desks and never go to sea,
And you all may be rulers of the Queen's Navee!
Chorus:
Stick close to your desks and never go to sea,
And you all may be rulers of the Queen's Navee!

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." ~Hermann Wilhelm Göring

robin  posted on  2006-01-25   10:17:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

That's like saying the Eighth Amendment allows cruel punishment as long as it's done frequently enough as to not be unusual.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-01-25   10:26:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Since the whole "goddamned" (Bush) Constitution is "outdated" (Gonzales) then a phrase here, a phrase there, hardly matters, right?

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." ~Hermann Wilhelm Göring

robin  posted on  2006-01-25   10:39:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Jeeze, don't give 'em any ideas. Next thing ya know, we'll have portable rape rooms at the seatbelt enforcement checkpoints.

Esso  posted on  2006-01-25   10:39:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Jeeze, don't give 'em any ideas. Next thing ya know, we'll have portable rape rooms at the seatbelt enforcement checkpoints.

beauty will be a curse again as it has been in times past

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger." ~Hermann Wilhelm Göring

robin  posted on  2006-01-25   10:44:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I suspect they're way ahead of me on this one.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-01-25   10:49:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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