PravdaMainForum... JANUARY 15, 1998 How Jimmy Carter and I Started the Mujahideen
by JEFFREY ST. CLAIR - ALEXANDER COCKBURN
Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs [“From the Shadows”], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
Brzezinski: It isn’t quite that. We didn’t push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn’t believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don’t regret anything today?
Brzezinski: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter: We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic [integrisme], having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
Brzezinski: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated: Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.
Brzezinski: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn’t a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.
* There are at least two editions of this magazine; with the perhaps sole exception of the Library of Congress, the version sent to the United States is shorter than the French version, and the Brzezinski interview was not included in the shorter version.
The above has been translated from the French by Bill Blum author of the indispensible, “Killing Hope: US Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II” and “Rogue State: A Guide to the World’s Only Superpower” Portions of the books can be read at: <>members.aol.c...ue/homepage.htm>
Poster Comment:
post #5] Ivan88... Bzrezinski made a great confession in the interview in post #2: "... what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries."
So the same entity that drives the Christian countries is driving the Allah wa Akhbar crazies. This control of both sides is called the dialectics of war.
shaktiman I don't think Jimmy was or is a bribe taker. I think he really tried to make peace with Arabs and jews. I think that Brzezinski may have a Ph. D. but his mixture of some truths with huge lies and continuous equivocation makes me uneasy. Brzezinski appears to think too much of himself while having the IQ of a turnip. Evidence? Look at how he phrases his so called intelligence information. Jimmy Carter has changed his worldview over the years. Once again I believe he is trying and has a good deal of intelligence. By the way, CIA and MI were in Afghanistan, as they were everywhere else, long before Jimmy was elected. I did not directly see any but their modus operandi is not a secret. Don't forget the poppy angle. It influences many parts of the world. Zharkov, you're getting as pessimistic as me. But you are 100% accurate when you say: Quote
"Clinton (both) are living proof that bribes and corruption is the way of life in Washington, at least until they are caught by someone who wasn't paid enough to ignore them." My friend Zharkov, Clintons are not only next to the top (Kikey) of the corruption food chain, not only murderers and thieves, (of this I have direct knowledge), not only war criminals, (especially in Eastern Europe), but chief "demons" (psychopaths) in our imperfect world where some are trying to lift the many above the mortal and human condition.
Ivan, you are perceptive as usual and I agree when you write: Quote
"This control of both sides is called the dialectics of war."
I might add not only in foreign wars but right here in the US politically. I always said, "if you own both teams, how can you lose the Super Bowl"? Jimmy is saying much about the disingenuity of Israel and jewish culture as well.
When Jimmy Carter says: "US is an Oligarchy, with unlimited political bribery", he is 100% truthful. He may have heard what a thorn in the side I have been and am to these crooks, but in any case, this mantra is becoming an ideal.
Ivan88... Quote "if you own both teams, how can you lose the Super Bowl"?
One can still lose, if the game costs more than the benefits. This is why every war is like a theatrical performance starting with a conflict, then rising conflict until a crisis and climax followed by a picking up the pieces, (plunder) and subsequent new activities and profits.
shaktiman Yes, indeed Ivan, but there is the outside possibility, at this point, you may need to go farther in that there may be no pieces left to pick up. Let's hope I'm wrong about that, too.
Shura... Carter and Brzezinski are talking about the different period in this world, Russia was invited by President Najibullah to assist him in putting down revolt against his socialist state, which was modeled on the Soviet Union, most of the world at that time were against Russia being in Afghanistan, including yours truly. The formation of mujaheddin to fight Russians eventually got out of hand after Russians left. I refuse to blame Russia for the period of turmoil, Taliban, many torture chambers, murder of some million people, and CIA's huge trade in Heroin which is still going on to this very day. Those are the fruits of the labor of next US President and next one after that.
HunAvar... Brezinsky is fantasizing. To goad Russia into Afghanistan and the utterly dismal, horrific long term results to all parties involved (Russia, Afghanistan and the US) was both EVIL, illegal and irresponsible.
The Soviet Union WOULD HAVE COLLAPSED without Afghanistan. Economically it was not viable; it was 1979 (or 80) when the Czech economists bluntly announced: "Socialism does not work, neither in theory or practice" By 1980 the whole Soviet bloc was changing (some countries more than others); political repression was easing, economic freedoms were gradually expanded.
In hindsight and analysis, it is very-very clear, that by 1980 the Soviet economy and political system was ALREADY in change - or if you will - the Soviet sphere was in decline, heading for a collapse. Afghanistan might have hastened it by a couple of years, but, I beg, at what cost - for Chrissakes?? The Afghan ****-up is still ongoing - in case you haven't noticed.
Brezinsky's self-serving bullshit should fool no one.