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Title: Top Cardinal Blasts 'Da Vinci Code' as 'Cheap Lies'
Source:
Netscape News
URL Source: http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news ... 2&dt=20050315130200&w=RTR&covi
Published: Mar 15, 2005
Author: Reuters
Post Date: 2005-03-15 17:59:13 by Mr Nuke Buzzcut
Keywords: Cardinal, Blasts, Cheap
Views: 8049
Comments: 568
Top Cardinal Blasts 'Da Vinci Code' as 'Cheap Lies' ROME (Reuters) - A top Catholic cardinal has blasted "The Da Vinci Code" as a "gross and absurd" distortion of history and said Catholic bookstores should take the bestseller off their shelves because it is full of "cheap lies." Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, in an interview with the Milan newspaper Il Giornale, became the highest ranking Italian Churchman to speak out against the book, an international blockbuster that has sold millions of copies. "(It) aims to discredit the Church and its history through gross and absurd manipulations," Bertone, the archbishop of the northern Italian city of Genoa and a close friend of Pope John Paul told the paper in its Monday edition. "This seems like a throwback to the old anti-clerical pamphlets of the 1800s," he said. The central claim of the book, written by American Dan Brown, is that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children. The Bible says Jesus never married, was crucified and rose from the dead. Bertone's comments were significant because until the Pope named him archbishop of Genoa in 2003 he was for years the number two man at the Vatican's most powerful department - the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real," he said. "I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." HOLY GRAIL A central storyline of the book is that the Holy Grail is not the cup which Christ is said to have used at the Last Supper but really the bloodline descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Bertone calls this idea "a perversion." Bertone is so incensed about the novel that he will be the key speaker at a roundtable in Genoa Wednesday night attempting to dismantle the book, which also accuses the Church of covering up the female role in Christianity. "I will try to clear things up and help form consciences," the cardinal said. "I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said. He said it was "sad" that even Catholic bookstores were selling The Da Vinci Code "for purely economic reasons." One bookstore selling "The Da Vinci Code" is the one in the Gemelli Hospital, a Catholic institution where the Pope spent a total of 28 days in two stints in February and March. In the interview, Bertone firmly rejected the book's claim that the feminine role in Christianity had been suppressed. "This is one of the most vulgar of inventions. The feminine element is present in all the Gospels," Bertone said. Bertone also strongly defended Opus Dei, the conservative Church organization that the book depicts as a ruthless, Machiavellian group that resorts even to murder in its attempt to keep the Church's secrets hidden. The novel is going to reach an even wider audience next year with the release of a film based on the book staring Tom Hanks. © Copyright Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of Reuters Ltd. 03/15/2005 13:02 RTR
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#95. To: Samuel Gray (#69)
I absolutely agree with that. (isn't it said we should never discuss politics and religion with friends? ;)
Do you have a reply about my post at 88? The drying of her hair, in my observation, was her placing her "crown" at HIS feet. A very beautiful and humble gesture, when taken in the context of the times.
yea.... I read that somewhere before. =0)
I don't see it as such. I see it as an opportunity to associate myself with a very good group of players to use my musical talents. It just so happens that the venue for that occurrence is a church. I don't accept money like some of the musicians do, I don't even let them buy me strings. I am able to separate the music, which I enjoy, from the theology, in which I don't place much stock. I don't understand how that "mocks" anyone. My reasons for playing are based solely on enjoying the company and skills of the other people in the band.
Working on it. The texts I've read seem to indicate that it was at least frowned upon, if not expressly forbidden for a woman to take her hair down in front of a man who was not her husband. It's worth noting that in the Gospel of Phillip, the word used for Mary Magdalene's relationship with Jesus is the Greek word koinonos, which although it is often translated as "companion", more accurately means "consort" or "partner", a person with whom one has had sexual intercourse.
Somewhere in the Bible it says that the Jews would recognize each other as the sons of Abraham by the fact that they were circumcized. I've always wondered if this indicated that they didn't wear pants in those days. How else could they verify this?
Maybe they had a social convention/rule where the heathen men wore turtleneck sweaters?
I am searching OLD testament passages, to see where you got this idea from. But in the New testament, it says what it says. It's worth noting that in the Gospel of Phillip, the word used for Mary Magdalene's relationship with Jesus is the Greek word koinonos, which although it is often translated as "companion", more accurately means "consort" or "partner", a person with whom one has had sexual intercourse. Where are you getting this from? can you give me the chapter and verse? I would like to see it myself so that I may further understand where you are coming from.
Well, if you look at all the pictures, they wore dresses. Uh Oh! were they all cross dresser's as well?????
I hesitate to get involved in this discussion as I don't wish to offend any of my friends, but I don't understand why SG's playing an instrument in the church band is mocking anyone or anything, particularly when he's not there vocalizing any contradictory point of view or deliberately trying to sabotage the service; rather, he is there contributing something of value and is also there accompanying his wife and daughters.
Well ... maybe the guys just wore short dresses. The right kind of hemline would let them still recognize each other as the sons of Abraham without disrobing. Guys who had to wear really short dresses to belong to the club probably got laughed at.
I don't think they had shielded public urinals in those days.
OK. A bunch of guys is dresses who don't trust anyone they haven't pissed in public with. No homphobes here.
That's close but this is the actual saying: Never discuss religion, politics, or anything else. ;)
Read Numbers 5. Sorry, I can find no other reference to women's hair except that when in prayer, it shall be covered and that they should not adorn it with jewels or gold.
The main propellant for the idea came from the book, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail." The authors got conned into tracing a fake organization with an associated factual background. The theme is that Jesus might not have died on the Cross; and that at least Mary Magdalene made it to France, with at least one child of Jesus. There is a 'Magdalene' culture in Europe which gives a lot of credence to the idea. The fake organization was the "Priory de Scion." The fraudsters put some forged documents into oficial archives. The result was a goose-chase trying to trace the bloodline of Jesus. The Catholic Church is in a natural tizzy, right now, as the Gospels point to Jesus as a Rabbi AND "King of the Jews." That leaves the position that you can't be a Christian, without first being a Jew. The Jews are in a panic, as that invades their turf. They don't want a hundred "unauthorized denominations" watering down their 'pity-party' and treatment as being "special." Jesus taught the Hebrew God, he didn't leave a 'will' saying that after he was gone, a whole new church was to be formed. Essentially, Paul hijacked a Jewish sect.
This isnt personal whatsover ..but what it has to do with is essentially the purpose of music in a church whatever that church may be is for worship to Jesus the Christ .. God. In every church I have ever attended one criteria for participating in the worship service~ a declaration of faith. .. leading, preaching, the music ministry .. And declare that either to the pastor or/and the congregation. Participating in the music ministry is for the sole purpose of praise and worship. It's rather like being a preacher or pastor using music rather than a sermon. Therefore if a person who is a part of the music ministry and is not a person of faith that person is not being honest to the congregation nor to God nor to himself whether its this particular instance or another.
Paul pretty much hijacked the entire New Testament. He never met Christ, yet new testament Christianity is heavily dependent upon his interpretation of things. I don't like Paul. Never did. That puts me at odds with a whole bunch of folks.
That is up to SG to decide. I guess I am a bit amused at the idea of someone who professes not to believe in God playing with a Praise and Worship band. It just strikes me as funny. But like I tell SG, I don't hold the patent on sanity.
I guess, like i said, that is what strikes me as amusing. Sam, God is gonna getcha yet! ;0)
God and I, I imagine, shall settle our accounts privately at some point. I don't think I'm being dishonest to the congregation by playing praise music. Many of the large, non-denom. churches pay their musicians for working Sunday, and many of THOSE musicians are non-practicing Christians. It's just a "gig". One bassist I know of plays the bars on Saturday nights, and "metro church" on Sunday, collecting healthy paychecks for both. It's not dishonest to myself, I know why I'm there. I explained it. The music.
I can read vampire stories without believing in vampires, or read books on the civil war without being a Rebel or Yankee...all for amusement, education, etc. Why then, can I not play religious music without being religious?
Maybe in your eyes it's just music.. but it is rather a paradox. To God the church and to Christians it's not just music. But as I said it's nothing personal, in the past I was very involved with church ministries and a statement of faith was a criteria to participate in those ministries. So it just doesnt make sense.. ?
well, I suppose that you can do it, as you apparently are. Like I said, I just find it amusing. I guess not coming from a big city, I have never seen "church rent-a-bands". All the church bands I have witnessed are believers and lead a ministry of sorts. But then, I have not seen alot of things. My 18th century personality flaw again. ;0)
I suppose there is lies the difference .. you see it as entertainment and those of faith do not.
hmmmm...what is it we do, then, with friends? ;)
Yep. Not only that, they winners wrote the bible and excised the parts that refuted their particular cult.
Thor is gonna get ya yet, or perhaps Diana, or perhaps Zeus will get you yet, perhaps the earth Goddess will claim you for her own, or perhaps the elephant god will claim you, or perhaps the Sun god Ur will get you yet as well. Someone elses religion, is someone elses mythology, with me it is ALL mythology. It is a belief in something that cannot be proven, in order to somehow deal with a life that you are too weak to handle on your own and need the crutch of religion to help you deal with it. That's fine, if you need a crutch, so be it, but I do NOT need a crutch, or some god of mythology to pray to to take care of me and my life. Death does not frighten me, I haven't the foggiest notion of what comes after, but I will find out soon enough, why concentrate 10-50% of my life on a concept that I would probably be wrong about anyway. 99.99% of all religions are probably wrong about what comes after, the only reason that they concentrate so hard on it, is beause death scares people and they want to KNOW what comes after. Christianity is a YOUNG religion, with a BLOODY history, forcing itself into human and pagan societies. Become Christian or die was the choice, problem is, that you can't even decide which Christian sect is right, and if YOUR certain interpratation is indeed the correct one. I always hear Christians claiming that they alone know the truth, and I always laugh at you, if the bible is indeed God's word, then should just ONE be correct, and which one is it? Bible the word of God, yeah, right, more like the words of uneducated sheep herders in the case of Genesis, and then some historical fantasies with some modicum of fact attached to them, and then the New Testament made up out of whole cloth by 3rd and 4th hand people that never even met jesus, let alone wrote truly about him. This whole conversation has been a kick in a half for me, then again, I love these discussions, because I get to watch Christians tear into each other for no apparent reason except they alone have the answer and the other christian, who themselves believe they have the answer just go into psycho mode. It's just fun to watch..
Uhm, if you'd been paying attention, you would have noticed that I quite clearly stated that I believe the bible is wrapped around general historical events in history and that it is the supernatural claims and the dictatorial commandments about who/how man should worship that are ridiculously absurd.
Oh yeah, they tore it into itsy bitsy pieces, the winner writes history, and that is exactly the way it was with the bible, and especially the new testament.
That's fine if you choose to believe that, but don't make the mistake of thinking there is even one tiny little shred of evidence to support the notion.
Why quote Thomas? He saw.....he believed..........there is no record of his ever doubting again.........there is evidence he missioned to India setting up at least two churches following Christ's teachings.
Dance the tango? ;P
But, if one is to subscribe to logic, then the burden of proof is squarely upon the one making the affirmation of existence. The logically default position with respect to claims of existence is one of disbelief -- until such time as actual verifiable, substantiable evidence can be entered into the record and evaluated as concrete fact.
It took me a great many more years of diligent searching, studying, testing and prayer before I realized that it is inconsistent with reality and therefore anti-life.
I have absolutely no idea. The only thing I know is that it has the Cardinal's panties in a bunch and drove him to say some awefully ironic things.
If one is going to be an honest christian, then one certainly must treat the gnostic gospels as important as the bible itself.
Someone elses religion, is someone elses mythology, with me it is ALL mythology. It is a belief in something that cannot be proven, in order to somehow deal with a life that you are too weak to handle on your own and need the crutch of religion to help you deal with it. That's fine, if you need a crutch, so be it, but I do NOT need a crutch, or some god of mythology to pray to to take care of me and my life. Death does not frighten me, I haven't the foggiest notion of what comes after, but I will find out soon enough, why concentrate 10-50% of my life on a concept that I would probably be wrong about anyway. 99.99% of all religions are probably wrong about what comes after, the only reason that they concentrate so hard on it, is beause death scares people and they want to KNOW what comes after. Christianity is a YOUNG religion, with a BLOODY history, forcing itself into human and pagan societies. Become Christian or die was the choice, problem is, that you can't even decide which Christian sect is right, and if YOUR certain interpratation is indeed the correct one. I always hear Christians claiming that they alone know the truth, and I always laugh at you, if the bible is indeed God's word, then should just ONE be correct, and which one is it? Bible the word of God, yeah, right, more like the words of uneducated sheep herders in the case of Genesis, and then some historical fantasies with some modicum of fact attached to them, and then the New Testament made up out of whole cloth by 3rd and 4th hand people that never even met jesus, let alone wrote truly about him. This whole conversation has been a kick in a half for me, then again, I love these discussions, because I get to watch Christians tear into each other for no apparent reason except they alone have the answer and the other christian, who themselves believe they have the answer just go into psycho mode. It's just fun to watch.. wow, I am not at all sure how to respond to your rant. But let me say, that I don't see any Christians tearing other Christians apart on this thread. i see Believers and Non-Believers squabbling, as your post clearly shows. But first, let me explain to you that I do not consider my faith a "crutch" as you do. I consider it a solid foundation on which to base my own personal life. What you do is your business. Sam and me have discussed faith numerouse times in the past and he teases me as much as I do him, so please tone down your harsh rhetoric. Also, let me very clear that, dispite your belief that Christian's fear death - I do not. I worked in all areas of health care from funeral home to trauma unit and everywhere in between. Death holds no mystery for me. And I don't claim to be the only person who "knows the truth" as your post states and no where did I claim such. I have no problem with what you do not believe, so why get so angry about what I believe? Like I posted above, when our times come, we will find out what happens, right? And, I see no psycho mode here - until your post.
So that is what the 4play article section is about?
I was merely pointing out his STAUNCH belief ... enough to die for !
I believe there is fraud involved.............playing music is giving praise and worthship to God. It is the type of boasting that Paul indicated was good boasting. The words written by Mr. Gray are to the contrary, obvliously. By using music this way for himself, whether financially or for the thrill of playing, is a farce. Of course, this is my opinion........and based on my understanding of scripture.
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#96. To: Samuel Gray (#93)
#97. To: christine (#95)
(isn't it said we should never discuss politics and religion with friends? ;)
#98. To: Zipporah (#94)
you are mocking God and not being true to the music NOR to yourself
#99. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#96)
#100. To: Zipporah (#77)
In many cultures the gracious expression of welcome is a kiss or kisses. Other cultures welcome people or greet friends with a handshake. The kiss, handshake or hug are all expressions of the warmth and courtesy felt and extended. In the mid-eastern culture of Paul's day they greeted on another with a kiss (see Romans 16:16). The kiss is cultural, the spirit of warmth is to be universal.
#101. To: crack monkey (#100)
#102. To: Samuel Gray (#99)
Working on it. The texts I've read seem to indicate that it was at least frowned upon, if not expressly forbidden for a woman to take her hair down in front of a man who was not her husband.
#103. To: crack monkey (#100)
I've always wondered if this indicated that they didn't wear pants in those days.
#104. To: Zipporah, CAPPSMADNESS, Samuel Gray (#94)
#105. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#103)
Well, if you look at all the pictures, they wore dresses.
#106. To: crack monkey (#100)
#107. To: SKYDRIFTER (#106)
I don't think they had shielded public urinals in those days.
#108. To: christine (#95)
(isn't it said we should never discuss politics and religion with friends? ;)
#109. To: Samuel Gray (#99)
Working on it.
#110. To: Samuel Gray (#92)
#111. To: christine (#104)
#112. To: SKYDRIFTER (#110)
#113. To: christine (#104)
but I don't understand why SG's playing an instrument in the church band is mocking anyone or anything
#114. To: Zipporah, Samuel Gray (#111)
In every church I have ever attended one criteria for participating in the worship service~ a declaration of faith. .. leading, preaching, the music ministry .. And declare that either to the pastor or/and the congregation. Participating in the music ministry is for the sole purpose of praise and worship.
#115. To: Zipporah (#111)
#116. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#114)
#117. To: Samuel Gray (#115)
#118. To: Samuel Gray (#116)
Why then, can I not play religious music without being religious?
#119. To: Samuel Gray (#116)
.all for amusement, education, etc.
#120. To: 1776 (#108)
Never discuss religion, politics, or anything else.
#121. To: 2Trievers (#55)
Heh. Are you saying "the winners write history?"
#122. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#114)
#123. To: Continental Op (#60)
so we have progressed thus far that you admit the Bible is not entirely a work of fiction?
#124. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#121)
Not only that, they winners wrote the bible and excised the parts that refuted their particular cult.
#125. To: noone222 (#61)
Personally I think life after death is already a done deal. The only thing left to determine is the Zip Code. [7777777 or 666666]
#126. To: Samuel Gray (#33)
Thomas was on the right track. Lest I see the nail prints and thrust my hand into his side...
#127. To: christine, 1776 (#120)
#128. To: Don (#64)
You say that we can't prove that He was divine. But, the truth is you can't prove that He wasn't.
#129. To: Samuel Gray (#69)
I believe critical examination of anything is crucial to understanding it. As Mekons alluded to earlier, when I began that critical examination of my faith, as early as seven years old, it evaporated into smoke and departed. I've never found it since, although, I confess having not looked very hard for it.
#130. To: Rothbard (#89)
Can anyone give me a brief 1 paragraph synopsis of this book. Whats its point? I really dont want to read this book, as its very large, and quite frankly I have enough really thick books on my shelf that need reading.... I dont need another one..... but I'm still curious what its all about.
#131. To: Aric2000 (#124)
Oh yeah, they tore it into itsy bitsy pieces, the winner writes history, and that is exactly the way it was with the bible, and especially the new testament.
#132. To: Aric2000 (#122)
Thor is gonna get ya yet, or perhaps Diana, or perhaps Zeus will get you yet, perhaps the earth Goddess will claim you for her own, or perhaps the elephant god will claim you, or perhaps the Sun god Ur will get you yet as well.
#133. To: Zipporah, christine (#127)
Dance the tango? ;P
#134. To: rowdee (#126)
Why quote Thomas?
#135. To: Zipporah (#94)
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