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Religion
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Title: Top Cardinal Blasts 'Da Vinci Code' as 'Cheap Lies'
Source: Netscape News
URL Source: http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news ... 2&dt=20050315130200&w=RTR&covi
Published: Mar 15, 2005
Author: Reuters
Post Date: 2005-03-15 17:59:13 by Mr Nuke Buzzcut
Keywords: Cardinal, Blasts, Cheap
Views: 7905
Comments: 568

Top Cardinal Blasts 'Da Vinci Code' as 'Cheap Lies'

ROME (Reuters) - A top Catholic cardinal has blasted "The Da Vinci Code" as a "gross and absurd" distortion of history and said Catholic bookstores should take the bestseller off their shelves because it is full of "cheap lies."

Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, in an interview with the Milan newspaper Il Giornale, became the highest ranking Italian Churchman to speak out against the book, an international blockbuster that has sold millions of copies.

"(It) aims to discredit the Church and its history through gross and absurd manipulations," Bertone, the archbishop of the northern Italian city of Genoa and a close friend of Pope John Paul told the paper in its Monday edition.

"This seems like a throwback to the old anti-clerical pamphlets of the 1800s," he said.

The central claim of the book, written by American Dan Brown, is that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children. The Bible says Jesus never married, was crucified and rose from the dead.

Bertone's comments were significant because until the Pope named him archbishop of Genoa in 2003 he was for years the number two man at the Vatican's most powerful department - the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

"You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real," he said. "I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that."

HOLY GRAIL

A central storyline of the book is that the Holy Grail is not the cup which Christ is said to have used at the Last Supper but really the bloodline descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Bertone calls this idea "a perversion."

Bertone is so incensed about the novel that he will be the key speaker at a roundtable in Genoa Wednesday night attempting to dismantle the book, which also accuses the Church of covering up the female role in Christianity.

"I will try to clear things up and help form consciences," the cardinal said.

"I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said.

He said it was "sad" that even Catholic bookstores were selling The Da Vinci Code "for purely economic reasons."

One bookstore selling "The Da Vinci Code" is the one in the Gemelli Hospital, a Catholic institution where the Pope spent a total of 28 days in two stints in February and March.

In the interview, Bertone firmly rejected the book's claim that the feminine role in Christianity had been suppressed.

"This is one of the most vulgar of inventions. The feminine element is present in all the Gospels," Bertone said.

Bertone also strongly defended Opus Dei, the conservative Church organization that the book depicts as a ruthless, Machiavellian group that resorts even to murder in its attempt to keep the Church's secrets hidden.

The novel is going to reach an even wider audience next year with the release of a film based on the book staring Tom Hanks.

© Copyright Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of Reuters Ltd.

03/15/2005 13:02 RTR

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 304.

#1. To: All (#0)

"I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said.

How ironic that someone whose living is dependent upon pushing a fiction like the bible should react so defensively against another similar work.

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-03-15   18:01:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#1)

How ironic that someone whose living is dependent upon pushing a fiction like the bible should react so defensively against another similar work.

ROFLMAO!!

EXACTLY RIGHT......

Aric2000  posted on  2005-03-15   18:03:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Aric2000, Samuel Gray (#2)

"You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real," he said.

He's talking about the bible, right?

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-03-15   18:07:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#3)

I think so. I mean, Da Vinci actually existed, but the guys who venerate the water walkin shepherd born of a virgin are offended because they say someone is making up stuff???

Rich.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-03-15   21:02:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Samuel Gray (#12)

I think so. I mean, Da Vinci actually existed, but the guys who venerate the water walkin shepherd born of a virgin are offended because they say someone is making up stuff???

have you read, the Da Vinci Code, The Bible, and down this thread in that order?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-03-15   21:08:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Continental Op (#15)

have you read, the Da Vinci Code, The Bible, and down this thread in that order?

yes, yes, yes, and so what?

When I read DVC and Angels and Demons, I laughed out loud because I knew the "Church of the Rock" would soil their vestments over it.

At least SOME of what Brown wrote was verifiable in the historical record. Find me a large buried boat, or some credible corroborative documentation concerning the life of Jesus written contemporaneously with his existence on earth, and we'll talk.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-03-15   21:12:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Samuel Gray (#16)

At least SOME of what Brown wrote was verifiable in the historical record. Find me a large buried boat, or some credible corroborative documentation concerning the life of Jesus written contemporaneously with his existence on earth, and we'll talk.

"At least SOME of what Brown wrote was verifiable in the historical record."

Yes, there was a Da Vinci...

"Find me a large buried boat, or some credible corroborative documentation concerning the life of Jesus written contemporaneously with his existence on earth, and we'll talk."

the archeological evidence in support ofthe Bible is staggering. Read up on it sometime.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-03-15   21:28:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Continental Op (#22)

Yeah, towns existed with the same names as some of those in the Bible.

Finding a reference to Loch Ness in an ancient document and producing Nessie are entirely different matters entirely.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-03-15   21:30:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Samuel Gray (#24)

Finding a reference to Loch Ness in an ancient document and producing Nessie are entirely different matters entirely.

I suppose you're not old enough to remember when the ancestors of your ilk were claiming the Bible was surely false because it mentioned Hitites and there was absolutely no such thing as a Hittite. Then some more excavation was done and presto, the Hittite civilization was discovered! No one remembers that anymore though.

Continental Op  posted on  2005-03-15   21:35:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Continental Op (#30)

At the end of the day, you can find all the Roman roads, dead civilizations, and mysterious parchments you want, yet the entire system is based on something that is NOT there in a tomb in Gethsemane??

Thomas was on the right track. Lest I see the nail prints and thrust my hand into his side...

Etc, etc...

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-03-15   21:38:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Samuel Gray (#33)

yet the entire system is based on something that is NOT there in a tomb in Gethsemane??

why should there be?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-03-15   21:39:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Continental Op (#36)

Most 2000 year old tombs are empty, is that it? Just that one is empty due to some other process than natural decay or grave robbery?

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-03-15   21:43:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Samuel Gray (#37)

Most 2000 year old tombs are empty, is that it? Just that one is empty due to some other process than natural decay or grave robbery?

where is the tomb?

Continental Op  posted on  2005-03-15   21:46:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Continental Op (#39)

It's your fairy tale, you tell me.

Back on the subject of the thread, why does the prospect of Jesus having a wife bother the Catholics so much? The Gnostic gospel of Phillip said he kissed her on the mouth many times, and loved her more than the disciples...

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-03-15   21:48:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Samuel Gray (#41)

...why does the prospect of Jesus having a wife bother the Catholics so much? The Gnostic gospel of Phillip said he kissed her on the mouth many times, and loved her more than the disciples...

Because it would confirm the fact that Jesus wasn't divine. And we can't have that type of info floating around.

2Trievers  posted on  2005-03-15   22:12:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: 2Trievers, All (#51)

Because it would confirm the fact that Jesus wasn't divine. And we can't have that type of info floating around.

Ok, guys, you have been having your fun. Those of us who do accept the Holy Bible as fact have the opposite opinion. We think we are right. You say that we are silly, etc for believing these things. You say that we can't prove that He was divine. But, the truth is you can't prove that He wasn't. So, you have your opinion. So, we have two sides of this dividing line. One side can't prove anything to the other side. You do not believe in His divinity, so be it. We do, so be it.

Don  posted on  2005-03-16   8:15:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Don (#64)

You say that we can't prove that He was divine. But, the truth is you can't prove that He wasn't.

But, if one is to subscribe to logic, then the burden of proof is squarely upon the one making the affirmation of existence. The logically default position with respect to claims of existence is one of disbelief -- until such time as actual verifiable, substantiable evidence can be entered into the record and evaluated as concrete fact.

Mr Nuke Buzzcut  posted on  2005-03-16   11:48:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut, All (#128)

the burden of proof is squarely upon the one making the affirmation of existence.

Counselor, this isn't a court of law. It's your decision to believe or not.

In the meantime, we have the First Amendment in this country. Freedom of Religion and all that? I can start a religion worshipping my right, big toe and I don't have to prove a thing.

Christianity and belief in Christ is much more established than my pretend church. Prove something? Yeah, right. In your dreams. Christianity is here and it will stay here. Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not.

Don  posted on  2005-03-16   13:55:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: Don (#150)

Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not.

Me either Don.

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-03-16   13:56:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#151)

Well, this day seems to be beat up on the Christians day. At least, the lions haven't been released yet.

Don  posted on  2005-03-16   14:12:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: Don (#158)

At least, the lions haven't been released yet.

I don't know about you, but I don't fear lions either. At least they go straigt for the jugular - making death quick and painless.

These two camps are never going to find common ground, and each tends to blame the other for today's/yesterday's woes (Science Community/Christian Community).

But like you, I will not be berated or belitteld for my beliefs. And I suppose, we should also not berate others for not believing. God did grant man free will.

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-03-16   14:15:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#160)

each tends to blame the other for today's/yesterday's woes (Science Community/Christian Community).

Lions are no big deal. Four of them are living in my house now. At least, they think they are lions.

I don't blame science for today's woes. There is a spiritual warfare going on and science is only being used in it. The politicians themselves are only pawns.

Belittlement for believing in Christ is something which people should respond to. Christians are not second-class citizens for believing in Christ, nor are they dumb, illogical, or uneducated. And, that is something that the people who "know better" can't seem to understand.

Don  posted on  2005-03-16   14:21:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: Don (#163)

Belittlement for believing in Christ is something which people should respond to. Christians are not second-class citizens for believing in Christ, nor are they dumb, illogical, or uneducated. And, that is something that the people who "know better" can't seem to understand.

The only christians that I will place that label to would be literalist fundamentalists, which of course we have a few here.

Most Christians understand that Evolution is a scientific theory, and therefore not a threat to religion, others freak out, like the chuch of old.

We evolved, get over it, maybe god had something to do with it, maybe he didn't.

Maybe he created the universe and then walked away, and all religion is just wishful thinking. The earth is but an atom in a huge universe, and we are but tiny little electrons that mean nothing to the vastness of space. The only ones that think that we are important, are ourselves. Which is good, because that is a survival mechanism, built into us over billions of years.

But when literalists take the bible LITERALLY, they become ignorant savages, who would probably be happier in the middle ages, and if we had a time machine, I would be more then happy to send them there.

Aric2000  posted on  2005-03-16   14:28:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: Aric2000 (#166)

What, you mean the earth is older than six thousand years? And the Ark had dinosaurs? (Google up "dinosaurs and Noah's ark" for a larf).

What about the 400 species of hummingbirds? Did he take some of each, Or did we have "fast forward" evolution from just the original two?

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-03-16   14:30:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: Samuel Gray (#169)

What about the 400 species of hummingbirds? Did he take some of each, Or did we have "fast forward" evolution from just the original two?

He took 7 of the clean beasts and only 2 of the unclean ...

noone222  posted on  2005-03-16   14:36:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: noone222 (#172)

He took 7 of the clean beasts and only 2 of the unclean ...

Did Noah take two of each species of bacteria? Did he take two even if the bacteria reproduced asexually? Where did he keep the bacteria? Did Noah and his family infect themselves with every disease in existence?

What about viruses? Did Noah collect two of each of these or are these not considered to be living things?

crack monkey  posted on  2005-03-16   15:02:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: crack monkey (#179)

Did Noah collect two of each of these or are these not considered to be living things?

I think we may get all of the answers at some point in time, not today.

I'm not convinced that the "flood" was universal ... it may have been restricted to a particular area that was the "known" world ...

I'm not sure the Bible was written to answer every question that mankind might develope.

I heard a Scientist say that to believe the universe was created by a big boom was tantamount to believing a tornado blowing through a junk yard could build a Space Shuttle. I agree with him.

noone222  posted on  2005-03-16   15:12:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#225. To: noone222 (#183)

I don't believe the Bible was written as a textbook. Nor was it a daily diary or log, for full of complete details of each and every conversation that took place.

Thus far, from my reading and listening, it seems that the Old Testament was written by people from their perspective, their 'worldview'.....which would not have been the entire globe as it know it today.

I saw where someone commented about Jonah in the whale's mouth and how they didn't believe the story. While I haven't looked it up in scripture yet, I've read where the word used was not actually 'whale', but something like sea creature or great sea creature.

Also, even if it were a whale, it's possible he wasn't swallowed into the stomach wehre acids were........or if he was, that the whale was sick and not making acids.

God, to be God, can do anything he wants---when he wants--and how he wants. His ways are not our ways. People, especially in todays' age, want instant gratification....they want what they want when they want it.

IF he has to answer to anybody, then he couldn't be the Alpha and Omega; he'd be just another little ol god out there somewhere.

rowdee  posted on  2005-03-16   16:21:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#228. To: rowdee (#225)

God, to be God, can do anything he wants---when he wants--and how he wants. His ways are not our ways. People, especially in todays' age, want instant gratification....they want what they want when they want it.

And such is the basis of true faith. And the reason these squabbles take place. Science says "impossible" while Faith says "All things are possible".

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-03-16   16:26:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#235. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#228)

And such is the basis of true faith. And the reason these squabbles take place. Science says "impossible" while Faith says "All things are possible".

One of his names is the God of impossibilities.

rowdee  posted on  2005-03-16   16:36:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#239. To: rowdee (#235)

One of his names is the God of impossibilities.

=0)

yes, that is one of His names, isn't it?

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-03-16   16:51:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#251. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#239)

What about the "God of Rigged Games?" I still don't know how you can say we have free will if he knows every choice we will make. ;)

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applied to theology. Simply put, no one can know everything.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-03-16   18:31:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#252. To: Samuel Gray (#251)

What about the "God of Rigged Games?

what???

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-03-16   18:33:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#253. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#252)

He's talking about pre-destination.

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-03-16   18:34:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#255. To: Jhoffa_ (#253)

Very good, grasshopper. ( I lost your Yahoo ID, by the way).

If all this is "foreordained" from the git go, then there is no free agency called "will". He knows the sparrow when it falls, he knows the choices we will make.

If the outcomes are predetermined, there's no free will, and not a "hell" of a lot we can do about it.

Samuel Gray  posted on  2005-03-16   18:36:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#258. To: Samuel Gray (#255)

Well, I can't speak for God..

However, the way it appears to me is that, like any good manager, he puts systems in place and allows them to operate. When he does not is commonly known as a "mircale"

When we thing of God's laws, we think of the Ten Commandments.. but there are many others which don't get the attention they deserve. Like gravity, for example.

If you choose to jump off a building, his laws happen and you fall.

Did he throw you off? No, you jumped and his systems processed you just liek they would a water baloon or anything else.

We can't choose what color we are or where we are born.. (As such, I always thought these superficial & trivial details were no way to judge a man, as they are outisde his control) BUT! we can choose what we think and believe. This is the true measure of a man and is amounts to his net worth.

But that's not your point, is it?

You point is: "If God knows everything from the past to the future, he can just skip the nonsense and judge every man on the choices he would have made, and he can do it right now."

Truly, he could..

However this does not glorify him.

IMO, he would rather allow men to decide and then live by their decisions.

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-03-16   18:45:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#259. To: All (#258)

"miracle" rather..

For example: If I had a post without a single typo, it would be considered a "Miracle"

Jhoffa_  posted on  2005-03-16   18:47:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#278. To: Jhoffa_ (#259)

For example: If I had a post without a single typo, it would be considered a "Miracle"

ROTFLMAO!

That, my dear, would be MY MIRACLE, too.

rowdee  posted on  2005-03-16   19:39:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#282. To: rowdee (#278)

That, my dear, would be MY MIRACLE, too.

A thread without an "asteroid orifice" would seem miraculous to me !

noone222  posted on  2005-03-16   19:47:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#288. To: noone222 (#282)

A thread without an "asteroid orifice" would seem miraculous to me !

What exactly is an "asteroid Orifice"? Do I dare ask?

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-03-16   20:05:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#295. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#288)

What exactly is an "asteroid Orifice"? Do I dare ask?

No, please don't ... could you ask Rowdee ???

noone222  posted on  2005-03-16   20:09:18 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#296. To: noone222, rowdee (#295)

What exactly is an "asteroid Orifice"? Do I dare ask?

No, please don't ... could you ask Rowdee ???

okay. Dee?

you may want to PM this answer to me so as to lessen my embarrassment.

=0)

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-03-16   20:11:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#304. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#296)

I shall.....the check answer is in the mail.

rowdee  posted on  2005-03-16   20:20:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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