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Title: Top Cardinal Blasts 'Da Vinci Code' as 'Cheap Lies'
Source:
Netscape News
URL Source: http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news ... 2&dt=20050315130200&w=RTR&covi
Published: Mar 15, 2005
Author: Reuters
Post Date: 2005-03-15 17:59:13 by Mr Nuke Buzzcut
Keywords: Cardinal, Blasts, Cheap
Views: 7430
Comments: 568
Top Cardinal Blasts 'Da Vinci Code' as 'Cheap Lies' ROME (Reuters) - A top Catholic cardinal has blasted "The Da Vinci Code" as a "gross and absurd" distortion of history and said Catholic bookstores should take the bestseller off their shelves because it is full of "cheap lies." Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, in an interview with the Milan newspaper Il Giornale, became the highest ranking Italian Churchman to speak out against the book, an international blockbuster that has sold millions of copies. "(It) aims to discredit the Church and its history through gross and absurd manipulations," Bertone, the archbishop of the northern Italian city of Genoa and a close friend of Pope John Paul told the paper in its Monday edition. "This seems like a throwback to the old anti-clerical pamphlets of the 1800s," he said. The central claim of the book, written by American Dan Brown, is that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children. The Bible says Jesus never married, was crucified and rose from the dead. Bertone's comments were significant because until the Pope named him archbishop of Genoa in 2003 he was for years the number two man at the Vatican's most powerful department - the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real," he said. "I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." HOLY GRAIL A central storyline of the book is that the Holy Grail is not the cup which Christ is said to have used at the Last Supper but really the bloodline descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Bertone calls this idea "a perversion." Bertone is so incensed about the novel that he will be the key speaker at a roundtable in Genoa Wednesday night attempting to dismantle the book, which also accuses the Church of covering up the female role in Christianity. "I will try to clear things up and help form consciences," the cardinal said. "I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said. He said it was "sad" that even Catholic bookstores were selling The Da Vinci Code "for purely economic reasons." One bookstore selling "The Da Vinci Code" is the one in the Gemelli Hospital, a Catholic institution where the Pope spent a total of 28 days in two stints in February and March. In the interview, Bertone firmly rejected the book's claim that the feminine role in Christianity had been suppressed. "This is one of the most vulgar of inventions. The feminine element is present in all the Gospels," Bertone said. Bertone also strongly defended Opus Dei, the conservative Church organization that the book depicts as a ruthless, Machiavellian group that resorts even to murder in its attempt to keep the Church's secrets hidden. The novel is going to reach an even wider audience next year with the release of a film based on the book staring Tom Hanks. © Copyright Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of Reuters Ltd. 03/15/2005 13:02 RTR
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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 471.
#1. To: All (#0)
How ironic that someone whose living is dependent upon pushing a fiction like the bible should react so defensively against another similar work.
ROFLMAO!! EXACTLY RIGHT......
He's talking about the bible, right?
I think so. I mean, Da Vinci actually existed, but the guys who venerate the water walkin shepherd born of a virgin are offended because they say someone is making up stuff??? Rich.
have you read, the Da Vinci Code, The Bible, and down this thread in that order?
yes, yes, yes, and so what? When I read DVC and Angels and Demons, I laughed out loud because I knew the "Church of the Rock" would soil their vestments over it. At least SOME of what Brown wrote was verifiable in the historical record. Find me a large buried boat, or some credible corroborative documentation concerning the life of Jesus written contemporaneously with his existence on earth, and we'll talk.
"At least SOME of what Brown wrote was verifiable in the historical record." Yes, there was a Da Vinci... "Find me a large buried boat, or some credible corroborative documentation concerning the life of Jesus written contemporaneously with his existence on earth, and we'll talk." the archeological evidence in support ofthe Bible is staggering. Read up on it sometime.
Yeah, towns existed with the same names as some of those in the Bible. Finding a reference to Loch Ness in an ancient document and producing Nessie are entirely different matters entirely.
I suppose you're not old enough to remember when the ancestors of your ilk were claiming the Bible was surely false because it mentioned Hitites and there was absolutely no such thing as a Hittite. Then some more excavation was done and presto, the Hittite civilization was discovered! No one remembers that anymore though.
At the end of the day, you can find all the Roman roads, dead civilizations, and mysterious parchments you want, yet the entire system is based on something that is NOT there in a tomb in Gethsemane?? Thomas was on the right track. Lest I see the nail prints and thrust my hand into his side... Etc, etc...
why should there be?
Most 2000 year old tombs are empty, is that it? Just that one is empty due to some other process than natural decay or grave robbery?
where is the tomb?
It's your fairy tale, you tell me. Back on the subject of the thread, why does the prospect of Jesus having a wife bother the Catholics so much? The Gnostic gospel of Phillip said he kissed her on the mouth many times, and loved her more than the disciples...
Because it would confirm the fact that Jesus wasn't divine. And we can't have that type of info floating around.
Ok, guys, you have been having your fun. Those of us who do accept the Holy Bible as fact have the opposite opinion. We think we are right. You say that we are silly, etc for believing these things. You say that we can't prove that He was divine. But, the truth is you can't prove that He wasn't. So, you have your opinion. So, we have two sides of this dividing line. One side can't prove anything to the other side. You do not believe in His divinity, so be it. We do, so be it.
But, if one is to subscribe to logic, then the burden of proof is squarely upon the one making the affirmation of existence. The logically default position with respect to claims of existence is one of disbelief -- until such time as actual verifiable, substantiable evidence can be entered into the record and evaluated as concrete fact.
Counselor, this isn't a court of law. It's your decision to believe or not. In the meantime, we have the First Amendment in this country. Freedom of Religion and all that? I can start a religion worshipping my right, big toe and I don't have to prove a thing. Christianity and belief in Christ is much more established than my pretend church. Prove something? Yeah, right. In your dreams. Christianity is here and it will stay here. Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not.
My comments have no relevance to the shenanigans that go on in a court of law. I was speaking to reason, reality and logic. But, if you wish to set reason, reality and logic aside, that indeed is your choice.
"I was speaking to reason, reality and logic. But, if you wish to set reason, reality and logic aside, that indeed is your choice." Reason, reality, and logic. Ok, those things will do for a start. How do you prove the existence of God? A better question would be how do you disprove the existence of God when you can look up and see the stars and other bodies there or look here on earth and see the things that have been created here? Is it reasonable, real, or logical to think all of these things just popped into existence one morning. Where did they come from? There has to be a beginning to physical things. There has to be as Plato might put it the real or original from which all other similar things are copies. If there is a God, would He abandon his creation or get bored with it? Lets consider the case of a father and a son for a moment. Would most human fathers abandon his son. A son is a copy of the father. We are told that God made man in His image in the Bible. You don't believe in the Bible? Use your own human experience. Would you abandon a child made in your image? Most men wouldn't. Oh, I forgot. You don't believe in the Bible so how do we know that man is made in God's image? Well, something was made in God's image. You don't create something out of a vacuum. Lets consider just the animals are made in God's image. Or just the earth itself is made from God's image. Well, God created all of those things. If most men would not abandon their creation, why would God? It isn't reasonable, real, or logical to think that everything was just created without a supreme maker or that the supreme maker would just abandon His creation. What about Christ? We still don't believe in the Holy Bible so lets toss it out for the moment. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus has some comments in his history that might be of interest to you. The Holy Bible, of course, is still the main source of information about Christ and Christianity. Paul never met Christ, but he knew Peter and other disciples who did know Christ. Paul got his information from the people who personally knew Christ and were with him from the beginning of his ministry to the end of his time on earth. If there are books that were left out of the Holy Bible, still Paul knew those people who knew Christ. So, his version of what happened must be true. Wait a minute. You say that Paul's writings were filtered and even changed to make the man Jesus into Christ, the son of God? The true story is that Jesus died as a man and never rose on that third day. And, that the Jews are right in still awaiting their king. There comes that dividing line between faith and disbelief, right? The smart people are on the side of disbelief. The other side...well...they should know better to put it charitably. Ok, is the Bible correct in simple facts like the existence of long dead cities? Archeologists are constantly coming up with their findings. So, if the Bible is right in one thing maybe other things are also true. Biblical prophecy is an interesting area. It even talks about the rebirth of Israel some 2,000 years later. Gee, it was just a lucky guess, I suppose. "provided you violate the rights of no person in the process. Have at it. Believe what you will. " Thank you for your courtesy. I appreciate you allowing me to do that. I would also appreciate it if you don't violate any rights that Christians might have such as being allowed to obey what they think is the will of God in certain matters such as preaching the gospel. "if the cardinal wishes to make accusations against the written works of other, he best look in the mirror first, else he stands to be laughed at for the fool that he makes himself. " You can send the Pope a letter and advise him of that if you wish. He might even take the time to read it. I am not a Catholic so I don't take great exception to you calling him a fool, but I am sure that many Roman Catholics would take exception with you on that statement.
It would be a simple exercise - if he in fact existed. But, since he does not, you are forced to play word games and delve into logical fallacy in order to obfuscate an appearance of proof.
Then please do so sir, I (among others) would like to see said proof.
I am not the one asserting his existence, so I am not the one in a position to be challenged to prove his existence. You should have posted that challenge to Don.
But you were the one who said it would be a simple exercise, right?
Indeed it would be simple -- IF SUCH A THING AS A god EXISTED. It is a simple matter to prove existence of things that exist. Something as significant as a god would be the easiest of all -- if it existed. But, it does not. That's why believers have never been able to produce him.
And science has never been able to discount Him. this is a round robin argument that is making no head way. Neither side will be swayed. Let's just talk about the thread topic - what ever it was. minds are not gonna be a changin' I know mine isn't and I am fairly sure your's isn't either. Truce???
And that has been my point from the getgo of debating this stupid topic. Science can't use god, because god is nonfalsifiable, therefore ANYTHING that claims that god did it, had a hand in it, or some miracle occurred is NOT scientific. At the same time, Science cannot disrpove that god exists, therefore, Science cannot and will not touch the topic of god. Any scientist that says that god does not exist because the facts prove it, is full of crap, and anyone that says science is crap because it discounts god, is ALSO full of crap. Science cannot disprove god, and religion cannot prove that god exists. Bit of a quandry there, but neither can disprove the other, and will NEVER be able to.
Never is an often misunderstood period of time ... we should "never" say "never" ... I have found that whenever I have poorly chosen this word NEVER to express my determination regarding almost any subject ... never is just around the corner.
The existence of God is a matter of faith, and always will be a matter of faith. Unless God comes down to earth and starts working miracles at some point in the future, which is NOT going to happen, then there will never be any proof positive or negative to the existence of god. The rapture as some Christians call it is NOT going to happen, and Jesus is not coming back to take the Christians to heaven nor start a 1000 year reign. So sorry charlie, but it was made up by selfish men for selfish reasons, the miracles were never miracles and are misunderstood by most people, and of course by most Christians. Christians, as such, take the bible at face value, claiming that it is the word of God, well, sorry, it is the word of man, written down by men, to control other men.
Oh no, say it isin't so! BAAAAWH
Perhaps you recall this sad news event: Jesus a "No Show" At New Year's Eve Rapture Party, Causing 167 Baptists To Plummet to Their Deaths A police officer and several pastors watch as Mrs. Cartwright dangles from an oak tree, wondering when she will finally fall to the ground. DES MOINES, IOWA (AP) Almost one hundred members of Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemakers and their spouses were killed at a December 31, 1999 "Rapture Bon Voyage" party. All of the women had paid Mrs. Betty Bowers $34,000 to be among the first to be taken to heaven as Jesus' special guest at the stroke of midnight. Party attendee Mr. Tommy Jenkins had reportedly told friends, "Eunice was real excited about scraping enough money together to get to go. It was Becca's college money, but Eunice knew it was End Times so there wasn't going to be no college and Mrs. Bowers always does everything really nice. Eunice wanted to go out with a little flourish." The party was held on the rooftop of the 35 story Landover Hotel & Prayer Convention Facility. Special 40 foot golden staircases had been constructed to start the partygoers on their journey up to heaven. Hourly catering staff dressed as angels were positioned at the top of each staircase to beckon the partygoers on to Heaven at midnight. The exclusive party featured everything from Petrossian caviar to French nonalcoholic "Champagne-like" sparkling beverage for the teetotalling Baptist crowd. "I knew something was amiss," lamented Mrs. Bowers, "when I went to open a case of Clicquot for my millennium party in Maui and realized it was that dreadful faux-champagne I'd ordered for Landover. UPS must have swapped the orders. And the implications of that blunder didn't occur to me until those dear BITCHs were already dead. To be as honest as my Savior, I was simply too busy worrying about how the mix-up would be the figurative death of my party to stop and think how it might lead to the actual death of those poor women who never drink even an unpretentious hock, much less a lovely quality champagne." An obviously homosexual waiter for the event recounted, "I told several of the ladies that I was going to cut them off because they were getting real drunk. But they told me that they never drink and they were just 'drunk in the Spirit.'" He then rolled his eyes and added in that snide, homosexual way of theirs: "Spirits was more like it." According to the waiter, all of the partygoers were horrendous tippers and as it got closer to midnight they started to walk up the golden staircases located all along the periphery of the roof. "They were yelling things like 'I'm coming, Jesus,'" recalled the fey waiter. When the Landover Chapel bell struck twelve, each member of Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemakers grabbed her husband's hand and began racing up the golden staircases. As each got to the last step, they threw themselves off the side of the 470 foot building and into the waiting arms of Jesus. According to eyewitness accounts, however, Jesus, apparently tied up elsewhere, was a "no show" and was regrettably not able to stop them from denting car hoods, flattening expensive shrubbery or staining the sidewalks below. Mrs. June Gordon was the only Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemakers member on the roof not to make the fateful leap. Crying, she told Channel 2: "Wanda June told me that 'If you have faith in Jesus, you will jump and His warrior angels will swoop down to take you to heaven.' I am embarrassed to admit it, but I did not have enough faith so I did not jump. I am so jealous of all them who died because they had the faith to jump. I will now be sent to Hell for not trusting Jesus." The first witness to the gruesome scene on the ground was Mrs. Jerry Johnson. "I was up on the roof when it was decided that we was going to "Jump to Jesus" at midnight. But I was wearing kick-pleats. What a stupid choice for jumping off the top of a building! I realized that they would just fly up and I didn't want to flash my Personal Savior and have Him think I was some kind of trailer-trash slut and just let me fall. So, I went home to put on a long skirt with thicker unmentionables. By the time I drove into the parking lot, I heard Mrs. Tomkin yell, 'Catch me, Jesus!' as she threw herself off the roof. She was the first to hit the sidewalk. It sounded like a big bag of wet flour. You know, that Italian fellow Galileo said that stuff falls towards Hell at the same speed, no matter how heavy, but Wanda Madison, who is kind of plump, bless her heart, hit that Town Car way before Karla Johnson. And they jumped at the same time. Once again, fine Christians have proved the falsity of secular science." Adroitly deflecting questions of culpability in the deaths, Mrs. Bowers, when reached on her lanai in Hawaii, said, "Well, I thought it was going to be the end. But everyone makes mistakes. Even God started over with Noah when He realized He'd botched His first try at populating the Earth. And this Second Coming business is inherently tricky. I mean, even Jesus told his disciples that he would return before they had all died. So, when your own Personal Savior is clueless and makes wildly exaggerated claims, it makes mortal prognostication rather dicey." When asked why Mrs. Bowers wasn't with the women from Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemakers, Mrs. Bowers stated, "I was with them in spirit. But I had to be at the most divine Millennium party in Sydney and then take the Gulfstream up to Maui to celebrate the new century again with 325 close friends at my place there. And when you are hostessing that many people, you really have no business running off and jumping off buildings. I received news of the deaths just as the clock was about to strike midnight in Hawaii. I said the most lovely and heartfelt toast to the people who had died and we decided that each time someone blew a noisemaker, it would be in memory of those dear dead women. It was remarkable how the whole party joined in on the commemoration. Such a noise! It was really rather moving. Indeed, the whole evening turned out wonderfully. My party was fabulous and I would hardly call the Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemaker's Bon Voyage party a failure. I mean, in addition to to-die-for food, all I promised them was that at midnight they would be with Jesus. And, unless there were sins I am unaware of, that is precisely where they are. So, of course, there will be no refunds." Commenting on the tragic deaths, Pastor Deacon Fred told the Landover congregation on Sunday, "All people are precious in God's eyes, but our Gold Level Tithers are particularly precious to us at Landover. And we lost 14 of them. We are asking the rest of the congregation to take a moment from their grieving to make up the difference." Assessments will be mailed Monday.
Now see, you can post stuff like that, and get laughs. If I post it, I'm the freakin anti-Christ and I get bozoed off the map. ;)
You mean that you're NOT??? Dang! I just lost the bettig pool!
I had him down as a "useful Idiot" and one of Satan's lesser minions...
Still leading with your charm , eh, Flint? Remind me again why you're still breathing American air? I thought you were gone as of November 2. What's keeping you? I'm sure they have some sort of net access in Central America.
I see you've still got that weasel up your ass.
Still good at avoiding the pointed questions, aren't ya?
And I see you're still a nosy little turd.
Baby we could talk all night, but that ain't gettin us nowhere. Write me back when you get that Costa Rican IP address. Maybe my opinion of you will improve. It's got nowhere to go but up.
#481. To: Samuel Gray (#471)
like I care. Guys like you are dime a dozen.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest"I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said.
#2. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#1)
How ironic that someone whose living is dependent upon pushing a fiction like the bible should react so defensively against another similar work.
#3. To: Aric2000, Samuel Gray (#2)
"You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real," he said.
#12. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#3)
#15. To: Samuel Gray (#12)
I think so. I mean, Da Vinci actually existed, but the guys who venerate the water walkin shepherd born of a virgin are offended because they say someone is making up stuff???
#16. To: Continental Op (#15)
have you read, the Da Vinci Code, The Bible, and down this thread in that order?
#22. To: Samuel Gray (#16)
At least SOME of what Brown wrote was verifiable in the historical record. Find me a large buried boat, or some credible corroborative documentation concerning the life of Jesus written contemporaneously with his existence on earth, and we'll talk.
#24. To: Continental Op (#22)
#30. To: Samuel Gray (#24)
Finding a reference to Loch Ness in an ancient document and producing Nessie are entirely different matters entirely.
#33. To: Continental Op (#30)
#36. To: Samuel Gray (#33)
yet the entire system is based on something that is NOT there in a tomb in Gethsemane??
#37. To: Continental Op (#36)
#39. To: Samuel Gray (#37)
Most 2000 year old tombs are empty, is that it? Just that one is empty due to some other process than natural decay or grave robbery?
#41. To: Continental Op (#39)
#51. To: Samuel Gray (#41)
...why does the prospect of Jesus having a wife bother the Catholics so much? The Gnostic gospel of Phillip said he kissed her on the mouth many times, and loved her more than the disciples...
#64. To: 2Trievers, All (#51)
Because it would confirm the fact that Jesus wasn't divine. And we can't have that type of info floating around.
#128. To: Don (#64)
You say that we can't prove that He was divine. But, the truth is you can't prove that He wasn't.
#150. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut, All (#128)
the burden of proof is squarely upon the one making the affirmation of existence.
#342. To: Don (#150)
Counselor, this isn't a court of law. It's your decision to believe or not.
In the meantime, we have the First Amendment in this country. Freedom of Religion and all that? I can start a religion worshipping my right, big toe and I don't have to prove a thing.
I've in no way indicated that you should be prevented from worshiping as you please - provided you violate the rights of no person in the process. Have at it. Believe what you will. Christianity and belief in Christ is much more established than my pretend church. Prove something? Yeah, right. In your dreams. Christianity is here and it will stay here. Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not.
Lots of religions are here. Some are more populous than christianity. But, popularity is not proof. And, if the cardinal wishes to make accusations against the written works of other, he best look in the mirror first, else he stands to be laughed at for the fool that he makes himself.
#350. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#342)
#352. To: Don (#350)
How do you prove the existence of God?
#357. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#352)
How do you prove the existence of God? It would be a simple exercise -
#358. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#357)
Then please do so sir, I (among others) would like to see said proof.
#364. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#358)
#366. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#364)
But you were the one who said it would be a simple exercise, right?
#370. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#366)
That's why believers have never been able to produce him.
#383. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#370)
And science has never been able to discount Him.
#403. To: Aric2000 (#383)
Bit of a quandry there, but neither can disprove the other, and will NEVER be able to.
#410. To: noone222 (#403)
#411. To: Aric2000 (#410)
The rapture as some Christians call it is NOT going to happen
#413. To: Flintlock (#411)
#414. To: 2Trievers (#413)
#429. To: Samuel Gray (#414)
I'm the freakin anti-Christ
#438. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#429)
Dang! I just lost the bettig pool!
#440. To: Flintlock (#438)
#445. To: Samuel Gray (#440)
Still leading with your charm , eh, Flint?
#450. To: Flintlock (#445)
#466. To: Samuel Gray (#450)
Still good at avoiding the pointed questions, aren't ya?
#471. To: Flintlock (#466)
Replies to Comment # 471. Maybe my opinion of you will improve.
End Trace Mode for Comment # 471.
