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Title: Top Cardinal Blasts 'Da Vinci Code' as 'Cheap Lies'
Source:
Netscape News
URL Source: http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news ... 2&dt=20050315130200&w=RTR&covi
Published: Mar 15, 2005
Author: Reuters
Post Date: 2005-03-15 17:59:13 by Mr Nuke Buzzcut
Keywords: Cardinal, Blasts, Cheap
Views: 7256
Comments: 568
Top Cardinal Blasts 'Da Vinci Code' as 'Cheap Lies' ROME (Reuters) - A top Catholic cardinal has blasted "The Da Vinci Code" as a "gross and absurd" distortion of history and said Catholic bookstores should take the bestseller off their shelves because it is full of "cheap lies." Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, in an interview with the Milan newspaper Il Giornale, became the highest ranking Italian Churchman to speak out against the book, an international blockbuster that has sold millions of copies. "(It) aims to discredit the Church and its history through gross and absurd manipulations," Bertone, the archbishop of the northern Italian city of Genoa and a close friend of Pope John Paul told the paper in its Monday edition. "This seems like a throwback to the old anti-clerical pamphlets of the 1800s," he said. The central claim of the book, written by American Dan Brown, is that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children. The Bible says Jesus never married, was crucified and rose from the dead. Bertone's comments were significant because until the Pope named him archbishop of Genoa in 2003 he was for years the number two man at the Vatican's most powerful department - the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real," he said. "I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." HOLY GRAIL A central storyline of the book is that the Holy Grail is not the cup which Christ is said to have used at the Last Supper but really the bloodline descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Bertone calls this idea "a perversion." Bertone is so incensed about the novel that he will be the key speaker at a roundtable in Genoa Wednesday night attempting to dismantle the book, which also accuses the Church of covering up the female role in Christianity. "I will try to clear things up and help form consciences," the cardinal said. "I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said. He said it was "sad" that even Catholic bookstores were selling The Da Vinci Code "for purely economic reasons." One bookstore selling "The Da Vinci Code" is the one in the Gemelli Hospital, a Catholic institution where the Pope spent a total of 28 days in two stints in February and March. In the interview, Bertone firmly rejected the book's claim that the feminine role in Christianity had been suppressed. "This is one of the most vulgar of inventions. The feminine element is present in all the Gospels," Bertone said. Bertone also strongly defended Opus Dei, the conservative Church organization that the book depicts as a ruthless, Machiavellian group that resorts even to murder in its attempt to keep the Church's secrets hidden. The novel is going to reach an even wider audience next year with the release of a film based on the book staring Tom Hanks. © Copyright Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of Reuters Ltd. 03/15/2005 13:02 RTR
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#1. To: All (#0)
How ironic that someone whose living is dependent upon pushing a fiction like the bible should react so defensively against another similar work.
ROFLMAO!! EXACTLY RIGHT......
He's talking about the bible, right?
Oh, come now, assuming the Bible is a work of fiction, it certainly is a more credible and better written piece of fiction than the that piece of paperbacked trash. The Bible has lasted for more than a thousand years, the Da Vinci code will be forgotten in ten.
Credible? No. It's no more credible. Better written? Not by a long shot. I'll give you the last point, though. It certainly has loitered for more years than most. But then, I don't think that's the criteria you really want to judge by, is it?
as recent archeological finds continue to prove, the Bible is entirely a work of fiction. moreover, your biased, and unsupported critique of the Bible's prose, is disputed, not by me, but by more than half of all the great classical writers of antiquity.
edit before posting, should read: as recent archeological finds continue to prove, the Bible is NOT entirely a work of fiction.
Damn, it's fiction! What's the guy's problem? Just because Jesus was a Rabbi and King of the Jews; the guy is way uptight.
Hey, if it's good enough for Franco, it's good enough for him.
As a point of fact, it is not entirely a work of fiction. Several or more rememberences in the bible are corraborated by hostile documents, and supported by other impartial evidence. This is all O T. Count on it.
Continental Op posted on 2005-03-15 18:36:42 ET Reply Trace Private Reply Well ya beat me to it!
I think so. I mean, Da Vinci actually existed, but the guys who venerate the water walkin shepherd born of a virgin are offended because they say someone is making up stuff??? Rich.
Yeah right. The Catholic Church has some books of their own hidden away that they should open up to the public.
It's a lot LESS credible than Dan Brown's book and the goddamn thing (beg pardon) reads like a set of VCR instructions, with parts that contradict other parts. (The Bible, not Da Vinci code) At least Brown never said his WASN'T fiction nor advocated everyone use it as a model for living their lives and send him ten percent of their income.
have you read, the Da Vinci Code, The Bible, and down this thread in that order?
yes, yes, yes, and so what? When I read DVC and Angels and Demons, I laughed out loud because I knew the "Church of the Rock" would soil their vestments over it. At least SOME of what Brown wrote was verifiable in the historical record. Find me a large buried boat, or some credible corroborative documentation concerning the life of Jesus written contemporaneously with his existence on earth, and we'll talk.
In the words of Judge Maybelline Mathis(?): "Don't get ME to testifyin' up in here today!"
I'm fully aware that the bible is loosely tied to actual historical events. However, it is the interpretation of those events and their causes that delves deeply into the realm of fiction. As for its quality of prose, to each his own, but it is a far cry from compelling reading. There are other works of antiquity that far surpass it.
If the bible is true, then the Caananites have grounds for one hell of a lawsuit against the jews.
Why the hell not? Everything ELSE is their fault...the Canaanites may as well get in on the conspiracy.
The Iliad? THe remainders of Sinuhe's narrative? Gilgamishe's memoirs?
"At least SOME of what Brown wrote was verifiable in the historical record." Yes, there was a Da Vinci... "Find me a large buried boat, or some credible corroborative documentation concerning the life of Jesus written contemporaneously with his existence on earth, and we'll talk." the archeological evidence in support ofthe Bible is staggering. Read up on it sometime.
And Picts have as much for one against the Celts, and the Celts have as much for one against the Saxons and the Saxons have as much for one against the Normans.. .
Yeah, towns existed with the same names as some of those in the Bible. Finding a reference to Loch Ness in an ancient document and producing Nessie are entirely different matters entirely.
The same is true of the archeological support for the Book of Mormon. Does that make it a legitimate source on the spiritual world?
:-)
no it isn't.
Oh, I see. You'll pick-n-choose which evidence counts based upon which myth you choose to believe. That's typical.
At least with the book of Mormon, you know up front it's bullshit, right? I mean one of their angels(?) or prophets is named MORON i. That's a big tip off.
I suppose you're not old enough to remember when the ancestors of your ilk were claiming the Bible was surely false because it mentioned Hitites and there was absolutely no such thing as a Hittite. Then some more excavation was done and presto, the Hittite civilization was discovered! No one remembers that anymore though.
Not at all. It's just as legitimate as the bible and comes with just as much archeological confirmation. Those who choose to believe it are just as serious about its veracity as those who believe the bible.
"The same is true of the archeological support for the Book of Mormon."-Mr Nuke Buzzcut Let me re-address this post by asking exactly what archeological evidence proves the Book of Mormon to be correct and accurate? Links please.
At the end of the day, you can find all the Roman roads, dead civilizations, and mysterious parchments you want, yet the entire system is based on something that is NOT there in a tomb in Gethsemane?? Thomas was on the right track. Lest I see the nail prints and thrust my hand into his side... Etc, etc...
that's a fairly absurd statement. compare the evidences.
Point taken, and I agree. I was going for the setup on the "Moron-i" line.
why should there be?
Most 2000 year old tombs are empty, is that it? Just that one is empty due to some other process than natural decay or grave robbery?
Here is one that should suffice. I'm sure you'll dispute it, but then I could just as easily dispute biblical evidences on the exact same grounds, were I so inclined. The point is that both books were written by people who wished to tie their fictional accounts to actual historical events. Most novelists do the exact same thing.
where is the tomb?
It's absurd to you because you choose to believe one and cannot accept the other because it doesn't fit with the myth you choose. Mormons, on the other hand, feel quite differently than you about that issue. And, people like myself view both as fantasies based upon historical events.
It's your fairy tale, you tell me. Back on the subject of the thread, why does the prospect of Jesus having a wife bother the Catholics so much? The Gnostic gospel of Phillip said he kissed her on the mouth many times, and loved her more than the disciples...
Your mind seems unable to grasp the arguement of proportions. Once again, compare the number of archeological finds which support the Bible to the number of archeological finds which support the book of Mormon.
Hmmmmmmm ... how did I know that you might Turin up on this thread?
Faith, my child. You have to have faith.
that's a legitimate question. we know the site of the traditional tomb, but have not determinded that Jesus was actually buried there. "Back on the subject of the thread, why does the prospect of Jesus having a wife bother the Catholics so much? The Gnostic gospel of Phillip said he kissed her on the mouth many times, and loved her more than the disciples..." I dunno, I'm not a Catholic.
I wouldn't stake my life on Gnosticism were I you.
You keep that up, and some people around here might get cross with you.
Therein lies the rub, eh? Upon whose teachings shall we stake our lives? Personally, I don't operate well on faith. I demand more of my 10 year old than "just because I say so", so why would I not demand more of my Deity?
Not to worry I am blessed with: Wash Away Your Sins Towelettes
ROFLMAO!! My parents were never religious, but they sent me to sunday school and I was that pain in the ass who would ask, um, how did a guy live in a whale's stomach without being fried by stomach acid and drowning when they take in enormous amounts of water? I think I was about 8 when I said, um, two of everything on one boat built by one guy? What did they eat? Who shoveled the poop? Was the ark the size of Nebraska? That was it for me with religion. I am not stupid. The idea that ANY book is true, infallible, is such a joke. You have to be mentally defective or willfully ignorant to believe a book which was REWRITTEN HUNDREDS OF YEAR AFTER THE EVENT is immaculately true. Seriously, how anyone can believe something they should know was rewritten by the Vatican in 1400 or so, when they excised a ton of stuff and rewrote the rest, just stuns me. It's as moronic as believing that professional wrestling is not fixed.
Because it would confirm the fact that Jesus wasn't divine. And we can't have that type of info floating around.
I'm not of a mind to try and defend either book. The point, and it is still valid even though you would prefer to dance around it, is that both books are loosely based around actual historical events. Nevertheless, that in no way establishes the credibility of the main point of either book. The spiritual/mystical/supernatural claims of both books are not validated by the historical context. They may be useful for archaeoligists seeking information about ancient civilizations, but they are of little use for establishing how to acquire life after death.
No, actually, it wouldn't destroy the claims of divinity. It would only diminish the claims of the orthodoxy who successfully stamped out the gnostic theology by force of arms.
That reminds me of a joke.... A priest dies and goes to heaven, St Peter says that he can do whatever he wants for all eternity. The priest says that he wishes to study the bible in it's original writings, so that he may fully understand what he gave his entire life for. St Peter then took him off to the largest library the priest had ever seen. About 2 years later, St Peter goes to the library to check on the priests progress in his studies. He finds the priest surrounded by ancient texts, and crying like a baby. St Peter looks at the priest and asks, what is wrong my son? The priest responds, it says celebRate!!!
Heh. Are you saying "the winners write history?"
First, I'd like to say that it's my humble opinion that most people who are inclined to Bible bashing are also in a general sense Biblically illiterate, self-inflated intellectuals, that think themselves to be gods. These people see themselves as the sole determiners of moral judgments, which usually include some activity spoken against in the Bible. I have never found a place in Scripture that specifically denied that Christ was married. Whether or not Christ was married wouldn't offend His divinity in my opinion. I tend to think He wasn't married but I could be in error. As far as the Gospels being fiction, I would point out that all of Christ's disciples suffered horrible deaths because they wouldn't quit talking about what they had witnessed. Thomas died in India, run through with a spear, Peter hung upside down, Bartholomew had his skin peeled from his body by a whip until he died, etc., these men merely had to deny their Master to avoid these death sentences. Not one single disciple recanted. Irrespective of the other writings referencing Christ, such as Pilate's writings to Caesar, or Josephus the historian in the 1st Century AD, the willingness to accept death by torture rather than deny Christ by the men that walked with Him, to me is the most critical evidence of the Gospels truthfulness. Satan rebelled against the authority of God and was cast down. Most of us choose to rebel against authority and run the same risk, it's our nature.
On the teaching that has a proven-track record? Christianity is the religion of millions. Gnosticism numbers nuts like the late Philip K. Dick among it's recent and few followers. "Personally, I don't operate well on faith. I demand more of my 10 year old than "just because I say so", so why would I not demand more of my Deity?" That's entirely your business. Your personal standards though, mean nothing to anyone else, and certainly prove nothing.
I think you need to spend some quality time reading up on Gnosticism, if you're going to use it's content and teachings.
The Catholic Church has a homosexual/paedophile contract to maintain with the U.S. Govt. and the Secret Fraternal Societies.
1. To: All (#0) "I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said. " How ironic that someone whose living is dependent upon pushing a fiction like the bible should react so defensively against another similar work. Mr Nuke Buzzcut posted on 2005-03-15 18:01:05 ET Reply Trace Private Reply so we have progressed thus far that you admit the Bible is not entirely a work of fiction?
Personally I think life after death is already a done deal. The only thing left to determine is the Zip Code. [7777777 or 666666]
Nor do yours, for that matter. You're saying that because millions believe in the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus that validates those myths as a belief system? Millions also believe in Islam and the eastern religions...do they not have a proven "track record?" I'll just take my religion "cafeteria style", if at all. The Christians could use some fun stuff like that 72 virgin retirement plan the Islamics have. All the Bible thumpers have is eternity falling before some throne saying "Worthy is the Lamb..." I've had lamb before, and even with mint jelly, it ain't worth an eternity of praise.
So, Jesus is up on the cross, and he gasps out "PETER! Come to me! " Peter, at the foot of the hill, struggles to reach the top, but is beaten by Roman soldiers and cast down. Once more, the call comes...a bit weaker "Peter. Come to me!" "Yes Lord, I'm coming..." This time, he gets a little farther up the hill, but meets the same fate, a beating and a toss down the stony hillside. Again, the call. "Peter...come...to...me". Frenzied, Peter speeds around the Roman guards with newfound strength to race up Calvary, and fall at the foot of the cross, spent and gasping. "Yes Lord! I am here! Speak thou to me!" Jesus looks down and says "I can see your house from up here..."
Ok, guys, you have been having your fun. Those of us who do accept the Holy Bible as fact have the opposite opinion. We think we are right. You say that we are silly, etc for believing these things. You say that we can't prove that He was divine. But, the truth is you can't prove that He wasn't. So, you have your opinion. So, we have two sides of this dividing line. One side can't prove anything to the other side. You do not believe in His divinity, so be it. We do, so be it.
Prophency wise? No. "I've had lamb before, and even with mint jelly, it ain't worth an eternity of praise." Try it with parsely, or curried. Big improvement.
Well said Don, well said.
To quote a song I like: Surronded by Your Glory
Not the Baptists. Love the song, though. It has a great dynamic feel to the melody...slow build, then sorta majestic at the end. I play praise music in a band at church, as I've said, more for the music than the theology. Music would be more of a religion to me at this point, but I do appreciate some of the tunes.
The threads always turn into this faith v. fact things, and I've helped that along with my cynicism toward religion. The topic of the thread was and is an interesting one. Dan Brown's book put the Catholic church over the ragged edge of insanity. I've read all his books, and am "dissecting" a companion book to it called "Secrets of the Code" where some of the myth is separated from historical fact. It's fascinating. I believe critical examination of anything is crucial to understanding it. As Mekons alluded to earlier, when I began that critical examination of my faith, as early as seven years old, it evaporated into smoke and departed. I've never found it since, although, I confess having not looked very hard for it. If it comforts some to believe that way, I can't see the harm in it, within its proper bounds. When it's loosed on government and inflicted on the rest of us, though, there is a problem.
I am not so sure that Jesus having a wife is proof of His not being divine. Rabbi means "teacher", and most Rabbi's of His time did indeed have wives, so in context of the times in which He walked the earth, in taking a wife, would He not be doing what was socially acceptable? Also, saying that "he kissed Mary on the mouth" is proof of this or that, I think is a bit of a stretch and one can "read" anything into that that they choose. But a kiss in those times did not necessarily have the same sexual connotations as it does today. I kiss my 14 year old daughter on the mouth when she goes to bed, does that mean I am playing tonsil hockey with her? no. 1. Romans 16:16 "Greet one another with an holy kiss". 2. I Corinthians 16:20 "Greet ye one another with an holy kiss". 3. II Corinthians 12:12 "Greet one another with an holy kiss". 4. I Thessalonians 5:26 "Greet all the brethren with an holy kiss". 5. I Peter 5:14 "Greet one another with a kiss of charity". 6. Jacob kissed his father (Genesis 27:27) 7. Esau kissed Jacob (Genesis 33:4) 8. Laban kissed Joseph (Genesis 29:13) 9. Joseph kissed his brethren (Genesis 45:15) 10.Aaron kissed Moses (Exodus 4:27) 11.Moses kissed Jethro (Exodus 18:7) 12 David kissed Jonathan (I Samuel 20:41) 13.The father kissed the prodigal son (Luke 15:20) 14.The elders at Ephesus kissed Paul (Acts 20:37) Other New Testament accounts of using a kiss: Acts 20:37 reads, "And they wept sore, and fell on Paul's neck and kissed him". Luke 7:45, Christ addressed Simon upon entering this Pharisee's home saying, "Thou gavest me no kiss". In the parable of the prodigal son, when the son returns home in Luke 15:20 it reads, "And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck and kissed him". I think that *MAYBE* a kiss had different connotations then, just as kissing my daughter differs from kissing my spouse.
well, you MAY have a point there.....
And your Pastor is aware of your current belief system? You have a wonderful Pastor!
When disbelief and training people to do whatever they want to do as long as it makes them feel good is inflicted on the rest of us, there is a problem. The seeds of secularism have grown into a completely hedonistic society. It has turned a once great country into just another has-been.
Please correct me if you feel I am wrong.
A double edged sword, no? I agree with what you posted. We are literally forced to accept everyone else's lifestyles, while our lives and beliefs are constantly up for ridicule. Live and let live, I say. We will all find out, when our day comes, if we are right or wrong.
My pastor has a PhD in psychology and used to assemble nuclear weapons. That being said, I don't discuss my unbelief with him at church. I'm sure if I openly said "I don't believe any of this" any longer, I'd be replaced with a "Christian" bass player. So far, it hasn't come up.
You are exactly right.. the problem here is you are dealing with a different culture .. a different time .. just as in more modern times, the Italians will kiss the cheek of another ..nothing to do with anything sexual .. but rather a greeting .. In many cultures the gracious expression of welcome is a kiss or kisses. Other cultures welcome people or greet friends with a handshake. The kiss, handshake or hug are all expressions of the warmth and courtesy felt and extended. In the mid-eastern culture of Paul's day they greeted on another with a kiss (see Romans 16:16). The kiss is cultural, the spirit of warmth is to be universal.
What about the unbinding of her hair in the presence of a man other than her husband? That was an overtly intimate gesture, and I'm sure, appalling to the other men of her day. That implies a greater intimacy than friendship.
How many people have criticized "Christian churches" for not following the word of God when actually people just attend the churches without even believing in God? It sort of gives the real Christians a bad name.
True.
Can't have non-Christians attending church now, can we? That whole "fishers of men" thing is so first century. ;)
I am just saying that people are too critical of Christian churches and people who attend them at times. You recognize the difference, right?
I don't publicize my "unbelief" or doubt, or whatever, anywhere besides here, where it can hardly be said to influence anyone one way or the other. Nor do I profess, preach, or espouse a belief that I do not hold. I play guitar in the band. That's it.
Ok, I hope you play it well. We should all do something well.
This entire discussion is nonsense.. for why is it important to these people that Jesus BE married.. ?? First we must ask.. what was Jesus' purpose ? Was it to redeem mankind or to reproduce?
I play guitar in the band. That's it. Then what you are saying is that what you are doing essentially is being a fraud?
That implies a greater intimacy than friendship. Show me, Chapter and Verse, where it says that a woman must hide her hair?: Corinthians 11:5-15 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head–it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[a] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head. 11In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering.
I've noticed this book [The Da Vinci Code] for quite some time. Seemed intriguing, if only for the title. Can anyone give me a brief 1 paragraph synopsis of this book. Whats its point? I really dont want to read this book, as its very large, and quite frankly I have enough really thick books on my shelf that need reading.... I dont need another one..... but I'm still curious what its all about.
Nope. Every note I play is real.
During the Praise and Worship service?
It's another "search for the Holy Grail" thriller, that involves secret societies like the Knights Templar, the Priory of Sion, murder, hidden clues in the works of Da Vinci, the Catholic Church's coverup of an intimate relationship with Jesus Christ... The Holy Grail being the womb of Mary Magdalene, and the notion that Jesus sired a bloodline on earth that started somewhere in France, I believe (Merovingian Kings).
Two shows every Sunday morning. Yup.
Not speaking of 'notes' of course.. you are circumventing the issue.. the music.. is the issue and thus you are mocking God and not being true to the music NOR to yourself...aka a fraud.
I absolutely agree with that. (isn't it said we should never discuss politics and religion with friends? ;)
Do you have a reply about my post at 88? The drying of her hair, in my observation, was her placing her "crown" at HIS feet. A very beautiful and humble gesture, when taken in the context of the times.
yea.... I read that somewhere before. =0)
I don't see it as such. I see it as an opportunity to associate myself with a very good group of players to use my musical talents. It just so happens that the venue for that occurrence is a church. I don't accept money like some of the musicians do, I don't even let them buy me strings. I am able to separate the music, which I enjoy, from the theology, in which I don't place much stock. I don't understand how that "mocks" anyone. My reasons for playing are based solely on enjoying the company and skills of the other people in the band.
Working on it. The texts I've read seem to indicate that it was at least frowned upon, if not expressly forbidden for a woman to take her hair down in front of a man who was not her husband. It's worth noting that in the Gospel of Phillip, the word used for Mary Magdalene's relationship with Jesus is the Greek word koinonos, which although it is often translated as "companion", more accurately means "consort" or "partner", a person with whom one has had sexual intercourse.
Somewhere in the Bible it says that the Jews would recognize each other as the sons of Abraham by the fact that they were circumcized. I've always wondered if this indicated that they didn't wear pants in those days. How else could they verify this?
Maybe they had a social convention/rule where the heathen men wore turtleneck sweaters?
I am searching OLD testament passages, to see where you got this idea from. But in the New testament, it says what it says. It's worth noting that in the Gospel of Phillip, the word used for Mary Magdalene's relationship with Jesus is the Greek word koinonos, which although it is often translated as "companion", more accurately means "consort" or "partner", a person with whom one has had sexual intercourse. Where are you getting this from? can you give me the chapter and verse? I would like to see it myself so that I may further understand where you are coming from.
Well, if you look at all the pictures, they wore dresses. Uh Oh! were they all cross dresser's as well?????
I hesitate to get involved in this discussion as I don't wish to offend any of my friends, but I don't understand why SG's playing an instrument in the church band is mocking anyone or anything, particularly when he's not there vocalizing any contradictory point of view or deliberately trying to sabotage the service; rather, he is there contributing something of value and is also there accompanying his wife and daughters.
Well ... maybe the guys just wore short dresses. The right kind of hemline would let them still recognize each other as the sons of Abraham without disrobing. Guys who had to wear really short dresses to belong to the club probably got laughed at.
I don't think they had shielded public urinals in those days.
OK. A bunch of guys is dresses who don't trust anyone they haven't pissed in public with. No homphobes here.
That's close but this is the actual saying: Never discuss religion, politics, or anything else. ;)
Read Numbers 5. Sorry, I can find no other reference to women's hair except that when in prayer, it shall be covered and that they should not adorn it with jewels or gold.
The main propellant for the idea came from the book, "Holy Blood, Holy Grail." The authors got conned into tracing a fake organization with an associated factual background. The theme is that Jesus might not have died on the Cross; and that at least Mary Magdalene made it to France, with at least one child of Jesus. There is a 'Magdalene' culture in Europe which gives a lot of credence to the idea. The fake organization was the "Priory de Scion." The fraudsters put some forged documents into oficial archives. The result was a goose-chase trying to trace the bloodline of Jesus. The Catholic Church is in a natural tizzy, right now, as the Gospels point to Jesus as a Rabbi AND "King of the Jews." That leaves the position that you can't be a Christian, without first being a Jew. The Jews are in a panic, as that invades their turf. They don't want a hundred "unauthorized denominations" watering down their 'pity-party' and treatment as being "special." Jesus taught the Hebrew God, he didn't leave a 'will' saying that after he was gone, a whole new church was to be formed. Essentially, Paul hijacked a Jewish sect.
This isnt personal whatsover ..but what it has to do with is essentially the purpose of music in a church whatever that church may be is for worship to Jesus the Christ .. God. In every church I have ever attended one criteria for participating in the worship service~ a declaration of faith. .. leading, preaching, the music ministry .. And declare that either to the pastor or/and the congregation. Participating in the music ministry is for the sole purpose of praise and worship. It's rather like being a preacher or pastor using music rather than a sermon. Therefore if a person who is a part of the music ministry and is not a person of faith that person is not being honest to the congregation nor to God nor to himself whether its this particular instance or another.
Paul pretty much hijacked the entire New Testament. He never met Christ, yet new testament Christianity is heavily dependent upon his interpretation of things. I don't like Paul. Never did. That puts me at odds with a whole bunch of folks.
That is up to SG to decide. I guess I am a bit amused at the idea of someone who professes not to believe in God playing with a Praise and Worship band. It just strikes me as funny. But like I tell SG, I don't hold the patent on sanity.
I guess, like i said, that is what strikes me as amusing. Sam, God is gonna getcha yet! ;0)
God and I, I imagine, shall settle our accounts privately at some point. I don't think I'm being dishonest to the congregation by playing praise music. Many of the large, non-denom. churches pay their musicians for working Sunday, and many of THOSE musicians are non-practicing Christians. It's just a "gig". One bassist I know of plays the bars on Saturday nights, and "metro church" on Sunday, collecting healthy paychecks for both. It's not dishonest to myself, I know why I'm there. I explained it. The music.
I can read vampire stories without believing in vampires, or read books on the civil war without being a Rebel or Yankee...all for amusement, education, etc. Why then, can I not play religious music without being religious?
Maybe in your eyes it's just music.. but it is rather a paradox. To God the church and to Christians it's not just music. But as I said it's nothing personal, in the past I was very involved with church ministries and a statement of faith was a criteria to participate in those ministries. So it just doesnt make sense.. ?
well, I suppose that you can do it, as you apparently are. Like I said, I just find it amusing. I guess not coming from a big city, I have never seen "church rent-a-bands". All the church bands I have witnessed are believers and lead a ministry of sorts. But then, I have not seen alot of things. My 18th century personality flaw again. ;0)
I suppose there is lies the difference .. you see it as entertainment and those of faith do not.
hmmmm...what is it we do, then, with friends? ;)
Yep. Not only that, they winners wrote the bible and excised the parts that refuted their particular cult.
Thor is gonna get ya yet, or perhaps Diana, or perhaps Zeus will get you yet, perhaps the earth Goddess will claim you for her own, or perhaps the elephant god will claim you, or perhaps the Sun god Ur will get you yet as well. Someone elses religion, is someone elses mythology, with me it is ALL mythology. It is a belief in something that cannot be proven, in order to somehow deal with a life that you are too weak to handle on your own and need the crutch of religion to help you deal with it. That's fine, if you need a crutch, so be it, but I do NOT need a crutch, or some god of mythology to pray to to take care of me and my life. Death does not frighten me, I haven't the foggiest notion of what comes after, but I will find out soon enough, why concentrate 10-50% of my life on a concept that I would probably be wrong about anyway. 99.99% of all religions are probably wrong about what comes after, the only reason that they concentrate so hard on it, is beause death scares people and they want to KNOW what comes after. Christianity is a YOUNG religion, with a BLOODY history, forcing itself into human and pagan societies. Become Christian or die was the choice, problem is, that you can't even decide which Christian sect is right, and if YOUR certain interpratation is indeed the correct one. I always hear Christians claiming that they alone know the truth, and I always laugh at you, if the bible is indeed God's word, then should just ONE be correct, and which one is it? Bible the word of God, yeah, right, more like the words of uneducated sheep herders in the case of Genesis, and then some historical fantasies with some modicum of fact attached to them, and then the New Testament made up out of whole cloth by 3rd and 4th hand people that never even met jesus, let alone wrote truly about him. This whole conversation has been a kick in a half for me, then again, I love these discussions, because I get to watch Christians tear into each other for no apparent reason except they alone have the answer and the other christian, who themselves believe they have the answer just go into psycho mode. It's just fun to watch..
Uhm, if you'd been paying attention, you would have noticed that I quite clearly stated that I believe the bible is wrapped around general historical events in history and that it is the supernatural claims and the dictatorial commandments about who/how man should worship that are ridiculously absurd.
Oh yeah, they tore it into itsy bitsy pieces, the winner writes history, and that is exactly the way it was with the bible, and especially the new testament.
That's fine if you choose to believe that, but don't make the mistake of thinking there is even one tiny little shred of evidence to support the notion.
Why quote Thomas? He saw.....he believed..........there is no record of his ever doubting again.........there is evidence he missioned to India setting up at least two churches following Christ's teachings.
Dance the tango? ;P
But, if one is to subscribe to logic, then the burden of proof is squarely upon the one making the affirmation of existence. The logically default position with respect to claims of existence is one of disbelief -- until such time as actual verifiable, substantiable evidence can be entered into the record and evaluated as concrete fact.
It took me a great many more years of diligent searching, studying, testing and prayer before I realized that it is inconsistent with reality and therefore anti-life.
I have absolutely no idea. The only thing I know is that it has the Cardinal's panties in a bunch and drove him to say some awefully ironic things.
If one is going to be an honest christian, then one certainly must treat the gnostic gospels as important as the bible itself.
Someone elses religion, is someone elses mythology, with me it is ALL mythology. It is a belief in something that cannot be proven, in order to somehow deal with a life that you are too weak to handle on your own and need the crutch of religion to help you deal with it. That's fine, if you need a crutch, so be it, but I do NOT need a crutch, or some god of mythology to pray to to take care of me and my life. Death does not frighten me, I haven't the foggiest notion of what comes after, but I will find out soon enough, why concentrate 10-50% of my life on a concept that I would probably be wrong about anyway. 99.99% of all religions are probably wrong about what comes after, the only reason that they concentrate so hard on it, is beause death scares people and they want to KNOW what comes after. Christianity is a YOUNG religion, with a BLOODY history, forcing itself into human and pagan societies. Become Christian or die was the choice, problem is, that you can't even decide which Christian sect is right, and if YOUR certain interpratation is indeed the correct one. I always hear Christians claiming that they alone know the truth, and I always laugh at you, if the bible is indeed God's word, then should just ONE be correct, and which one is it? Bible the word of God, yeah, right, more like the words of uneducated sheep herders in the case of Genesis, and then some historical fantasies with some modicum of fact attached to them, and then the New Testament made up out of whole cloth by 3rd and 4th hand people that never even met jesus, let alone wrote truly about him. This whole conversation has been a kick in a half for me, then again, I love these discussions, because I get to watch Christians tear into each other for no apparent reason except they alone have the answer and the other christian, who themselves believe they have the answer just go into psycho mode. It's just fun to watch.. wow, I am not at all sure how to respond to your rant. But let me say, that I don't see any Christians tearing other Christians apart on this thread. i see Believers and Non-Believers squabbling, as your post clearly shows. But first, let me explain to you that I do not consider my faith a "crutch" as you do. I consider it a solid foundation on which to base my own personal life. What you do is your business. Sam and me have discussed faith numerouse times in the past and he teases me as much as I do him, so please tone down your harsh rhetoric. Also, let me very clear that, dispite your belief that Christian's fear death - I do not. I worked in all areas of health care from funeral home to trauma unit and everywhere in between. Death holds no mystery for me. And I don't claim to be the only person who "knows the truth" as your post states and no where did I claim such. I have no problem with what you do not believe, so why get so angry about what I believe? Like I posted above, when our times come, we will find out what happens, right? And, I see no psycho mode here - until your post.
So that is what the 4play article section is about?
I was merely pointing out his STAUNCH belief ... enough to die for !
I believe there is fraud involved.............playing music is giving praise and worthship to God. It is the type of boasting that Paul indicated was good boasting. The words written by Mr. Gray are to the contrary, obvliously. By using music this way for himself, whether financially or for the thrill of playing, is a farce. Of course, this is my opinion........and based on my understanding of scripture.
Who, or which 'sheepherder' do you believe wrote Genesis? The book is generally attributed by all theological scholars of various denominations to have been Moses. Moses was raised by the daughter of the Pharoah as a son of Pharoah. I suspect he would have been well educated. How about you?
I agree with ya. How easy it would have been for those disciples when facedd with death to deny Jesus Christ. The lines of communication were't that great back then. They could have denied Christ, and slunk off to Timbucktoo or wherever and lived a quiet existence. Instead, you have Peter insisting that he be crucified upside down because he wasn't worthy to be crucified the same way as Jesus was. I can't rememeber which one was pulled to death by a team of horses because he wouldn't deny Christ. All but John were martyred. Paul was, too. There were tons of martyrs. Nero in his madness used Christians who refused to deny Christ as human torches in the gardens about his palace! I don't know about you, but I can get a frickin burn on my finger and think I'm dying. I'm a coward..........I don't know if my faith is strong enough to be with the first century martyrs who refused. I wouldn't WANT to deny Him; yet I sure as hell wouldn't want to be burned at a stake, nor attacked and killed by lions or bears, and I don't being crucified would be very pleasant neither, nor would stoning, or drowning. I pray daily that my faith be strengthened to where I can have no doubt.
My sister had a near death experience, which she detailed for me. I don't say this is proof of anything ... but it's a little shred of evidence !
Me too. However, I am a little different in this respect. I forecast the scenario and determine my reaction should it occur. I have NEVER deviated from this strategy but did think I might reconsider it when the cops were chasing me down Highway 8 in San Diego at 120 MPH ... but I had made up my mind in advance to run ... and I damn sure did ! I want you to say something to our mutual friend about Scott.
The Bible says that Moses was trained in all of the Egyptian Sciences.
You stated that the Bible was a "work of fiction."
why? they died out, under persocution. The Bible didn't. The Bible has endured. how do you account for that?
The point of a sword, and mass market advertising?
Every time I participate in one of these threads, my "bozo" number goes up, so I realize this is futile, but it's really not for anyone to judge my motives or intentions for playing.
and there speaks your biased, uneducated mind. The Bible survived persocution from the Romans and Islamists, it's teachings were perverted by the Catholics, libeled by Atheists. Yet it still remains a book of moral and intellectual value with high recommendations from the Founding Fathers.
Read Adams or Jefferson sometimes, concerning Christianity. Jefferson wrote his OWN bible, deleting the miraculous references, and keeping the teachings of Jesus. Adams declared the Cross to be an "engine of grief" to mankind.
Adams declared the Cross to be an "engine of grief" to mankind. "Read Adams or Jefferson sometimes, concerning Christianity." I didn't mention Christianity did I? "Jefferson wrote his OWN bible, deleting the miraculous references, and keeping the teachings of Jesus." Jefferson was a philosopher, and his intent in publishing his own Bible was to distinguish the philosopy of Jesus Christ from the philosophy of Plato. "I have always said that a studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands." -Thomas Jefferson. In that context, he wasn't talking about HIS Bible. "Adams declared the Cross to be an "engine of grief" to mankind." Got a link? What you do you think he meant by that?
John Adams: "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson "But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams You can google it. I've used the quotations before.
I agree with him completely. But I fail to find a condemnation of the Bible in his statements.
Counselor, this isn't a court of law. It's your decision to believe or not. In the meantime, we have the First Amendment in this country. Freedom of Religion and all that? I can start a religion worshipping my right, big toe and I don't have to prove a thing. Christianity and belief in Christ is much more established than my pretend church. Prove something? Yeah, right. In your dreams. Christianity is here and it will stay here. Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not.
Me either Don.
Is it accurate to say that it was perverted by the Catholics? I have seen Bibles dating from 800 AD. There is one on display in Cork Ireland that dates from this period. Given that this is serveral hundred years prior to Martin Luther, and given that the Roman Catholic Church decided which books to include in the Bible and which to toss, e.g., the book of Mary, wouldn't it be more accurate to say: "The teachings were selected and compiled by the Roman Catholic Church and later adopted unaltered by the protestant sects"?
"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God....What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."- John Adams.
In the meantime, we have the First Amendment in this country. Freedom of Religion and all that? I can start a religion worshipping my right, big toe and I don't have to prove a thing. Christianity and belief in Christ is much more established than my pretend church. Prove something? Yeah, right. In your dreams. Christianity is here and it will stay here. Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not. And that brings us back to "My God can beat up your facts". Sigh. Thus has it always been. Two camps of people yelling past one another. I've already lost one friend today, I think I'll just leave it at that. Believe/don't believe. I don't, you do. Tomato, TomAHto, potato, potAHto, let's call the whole thing off.
I don't see it that way. I don't think that I have come close to saying anything that might even lead you in that direction. Belief or faith is simply that. And, it isn't nice to belittle people's faith. When it is done, people have to respond. As I said before, we have the first amendment in this country. Christianity is a religion and is protected under the Bill of Rights. That is a simple and straighforward fact. There are many people who do not believe in Christ. Fine. But, people who criticize Christ or Christians should expect a response from Christians. That is the bottom line.
We can stop talking about the subject. I don't have a problem with that. Let's see if others have that same thought.
I don't see it that way. I don't think that I have come close to saying anything that might even lead you in that direction. Belief or faith is simply that. And, it isn't nice to belittle people's faith. When it is done, people have to respond. As I said before, we have the first amendment in this country. Christianity is a religion and is protected under the Bill of Rights. That is a simple and straighforward fact. There are many people who do not believe in Christ. Fine. But, people who criticize Christ or Christians should expect a response from Christians. That is the bottom line.
Well, this day seems to be beat up on the Christians day. At least, the lions haven't been released yet.
I am seeing two of the same posts now. How did the same post get posted twice. I hate these dumb Apple computers. I am at school now.
I don't know about you, but I don't fear lions either. At least they go straigt for the jugular - making death quick and painless. These two camps are never going to find common ground, and each tends to blame the other for today's/yesterday's woes (Science Community/Christian Community). But like you, I will not be berated or belitteld for my beliefs. And I suppose, we should also not berate others for not believing. God did grant man free will.
Moses was raised by the daughter of the Pharoah as a son of Pharoah. I suspect he would have been well educated. How about you? Indeed, most biblocal scholars attribute the book of genesis to Moses, but he is only the one that wrote them down, the stories themselves were older still, they were stories created by sheepherders. They were stories created by them to explain things that they did not understand, and to create a patriarchal society from a matriarchal one. Which the Genesis stories do very well.
I think you are refering to the Vulgate, a Latin Translation by St. Jerome. The Protestant King James Version of the Bible is not precisely the same, as it does not contain the Apocrapha for one. Was it accepted unaltered by Protestant sects? The Alterations in the varying translations are vast. Moreover, to whom will you entrust the power to determind what books of the Bible were forgeries, and which were genuine. I must at this point, clarify my above post, when I wrote, "it's teachings were perverted by the Catholics," I was refering to doctrinal matter in answer to Mr. Gray supposition that the Bible was the root of wars, pestilences, and the dark ages
Lions are no big deal. Four of them are living in my house now. At least, they think they are lions. I don't blame science for today's woes. There is a spiritual warfare going on and science is only being used in it. The politicians themselves are only pawns. Belittlement for believing in Christ is something which people should respond to. Christians are not second-class citizens for believing in Christ, nor are they dumb, illogical, or uneducated. And, that is something that the people who "know better" can't seem to understand.
Who needs Lions when we have Jael? Christians eat their own now, if you don't believe exactly like another Christian, you are condemned to hell, right? LOL Lions, we don't need no stinking lions, you guys eat each other.....
In your dreams, Bud. In your dreams.
The only christians that I will place that label to would be literalist fundamentalists, which of course we have a few here. Most Christians understand that Evolution is a scientific theory, and therefore not a threat to religion, others freak out, like the chuch of old. We evolved, get over it, maybe god had something to do with it, maybe he didn't. Maybe he created the universe and then walked away, and all religion is just wishful thinking. The earth is but an atom in a huge universe, and we are but tiny little electrons that mean nothing to the vastness of space. The only ones that think that we are important, are ourselves. Which is good, because that is a survival mechanism, built into us over billions of years. But when literalists take the bible LITERALLY, they become ignorant savages, who would probably be happier in the middle ages, and if we had a time machine, I would be more then happy to send them there.
First, you say evolution is a theory. Then, you say we did evolve. A theory is not fact. Game over. Get used to it.
Not in my dreams buddy, it's a fact, or did you miss Jael and her rants about how Catholics are all condemned to hell, and how if you don't believe exactly how she believes you also will go to hell. Some of you claim to have the one true line to God, and then fight it out. It is fun to watch to say the least. If it were ACTUALLY the word of god, it would be INCAPABLE of being misinterpreted.
What, you mean the earth is older than six thousand years? And the Ark had dinosaurs? (Google up "dinosaurs and Noah's ark" for a larf). What about the 400 species of hummingbirds? Did he take some of each, Or did we have "fast forward" evolution from just the original two?
Jael is a bad example of anything, let alone the God she purports to represent. I can almost see "Him" sitting with head in His Hand saying "Boy, I f**ked up when I made THAT one..." The knife definitely turned in the Potter's Hand when he threw Jael on the wheel.
Poor Don, another that is clueless about what a "theory" in science actually is. I call it willful ignorance, because it might make you question your faith, and can't have that, sheeple should NOT think for themselves, right Don? ROFLMAO!!! Evolution is a theory not a fact? ROFLMAO!! You just keep repeating that.... but it won't make it true.... Poor Fundie, I feel for your ignorance, I really do....
He took 7 of the clean beasts and only 2 of the unclean ...
Ah. That cleared it right up. I'm going to stack and burn all my science books right now.
"E-fucking-zactly" Many in our society today suffer from an extreme case of undeserved, self- imposed, intellectual arrogance that blinds them to the terrible limitations of their pea-brains. These self-described Einsteins, are in truth, mental midgets that think it's OK to Blaspheme God and His Word, while "championing" a (sub) human species that has been a blight upon humanity from its inception. "Rich"
Great idea in your case ... all you'll miss are the pictures !
You wanna spell that one out? C'mon, you know you do.
That's lame, even for you. You and Quantrill are birds of an ideological feather, aren't you? Do you get your sheets and hoods starched and pressed at the same place? I'd say you were "philosophical" brethren, but the word means "lover of wisdom" and the light of wisdom has never darkened a corner of what passes for your brain. I strongly suspect your brand of picture books are the kind you hold up w/ one hand while "stroking your ego" with the other.
It would only serve a purpose to do so for someone that can read. You don't qualify.
Did Noah take two of each species of bacteria? Did he take two even if the bacteria reproduced asexually? Where did he keep the bacteria? Did Noah and his family infect themselves with every disease in existence? What about viruses? Did Noah collect two of each of these or are these not considered to be living things?
I'm more inclined (and so are "many others" on this forum) to believe that you have described your own book collection ... and your own "ego" and we will never be "brethern"
Are you saying the Jesus wants us to hate and kill the Jews? Don't beat around the bush on this one.
I think we may get all of the answers at some point in time, not today. I'm not convinced that the "flood" was universal ... it may have been restricted to a particular area that was the "known" world ... I'm not sure the Bible was written to answer every question that mankind might develope. I heard a Scientist say that to believe the universe was created by a big boom was tantamount to believing a tornado blowing through a junk yard could build a Space Shuttle. I agree with him.
You bloody coward. Can't even say it straight out? You gutless, nutless hate filled sack of pus.
Huh ... spit it out !!!
Name names or STFU, you neanderthal pussy.
That's exactly what he believes, he's just too much of a coward to say it out and own it like a man.
I'm not sure the Bible was written to answer every question that mankind might develope. That's a good answer. There does seem to be quite a bit of evidence that some sort of world changing flood took place. As you probably know, it exists int he folklore of other cultures in the region. Some think this is the flooding of the black sea and others think it was a meteor strike or volcanic erruption.
This type of speech will reduce the positive effect of your blood pressure medicine. Calm down Sam, the girls will be forced to throw you out if these outbursts of yours aren't corrected. Try prozac or ritalin ... children's doses would be most applicable.
Let 'em. That's the only way to keep me from responding to your particularly virulent brand of hatred.
That's exactly what he believes, he's just too much of a coward to say it out and own it like a man. Oh Sam, how distraught you appear to be today. Is your dog menustrating ? I don't think you can cite me ever saying that, even though sometimes I think the Jews do things that make people want to hate and kill them. You really shouldn't put words in Jesus' mouth, he hasn't returned yet and can't defend himself.
Huh ... c'mon ... calm down and type your response before you hit the button.
I was quoting crackmonkey's question to you, dimbulb, which you haven't had the cojones to answer yet either.
Ask your own questions "dimmer-switch" ... I responded to crack-monkey's intelligent question and if you can figure out how to ask one I'll respond to yours !
You answered his question in #181? That didn't show up on a trace. Perhaps you'd care to give it another go?
Can't we all just get high or something?
Perhaps your ability to focus is hindered due to the overdose of prozac your mom gave you this morning. Try, please try to pay better attention I hate repeating myself.
Great idea ...
Maybe, but noone222's drug of choice is an inhalant that hasn't been available since they shut down the big ovens in about 1945.
"towlie" hacked my account..
Let me be honest and fill this in with a legitimate answer. Maybe, but noone222's drug of choice is Yashua Messiah. I'm high on Jesus Christ, not a bit embarrased to admit it, and give the Almighty all of the credit for making me a happy camper in the midst of a world going mad !
Nah, you don't. You love the sound of it, you're just too impotent to act on it. Conviction without courage.
It's not me that has entered two blank posts ... your impotence is obvious to any casual observer ... you should refrain from opening your mouth ... you're gonna get athlete's foot in it !
So, like the bumper sticker, your boss is a Jewish carpenter? How ironic...
That's a common misconception. I wouldn't expect your conception to be otherwise.
Actually his boss is Jewish royalty, but let's not go there, because then the Christians will get really upset, they worship a Jewish King...LOL That would be like Muslims worshipping King Abdullah of Jordan...ROFLMAO!!! Boy, 2000 years and they are still so confused that they don't realize that they have been suckered... Christianity is the biggest con game ever created and pushed on the human race, and the Billion or so christians are true to the form, there is a sucker born every minute. Hell, L Ron Hubbard proved that, and he just died what? 10 years ago or so?
And because they are considered 'oral history', so to speak, are you trying to suggest they are not believable or are untruthful? Simply because one herds sheep doesn't mean a hell of a lot. Look at scientists today who are 'brilliant', but can't change a lighbulb. Sort of like the modern day folk who will try to tell you an oral contract is meaningless?
Christians don't worship David, Aric.
What's a "towlie" ???
It's a pot smoking, burnt out, "party" towel from "South Park" His name is "Towlie" and he's a stone cold, stoner.
I believe the removal of the Apocrypha was much later than the KJV of 1611.....more like late 1800s/early 1900s. It's my understanding they are still included in the Catholic Bible (Douey-Rhimes sp?)
"Wanna get high?"
Always remember to bring a towel.
LOL!
well, that makes three of us now! A literal canibal party, Seeing as how Aric thinks we eat our own. Do you like white or dark meat? Is that a racially charged question? Nice seeing ya Dee!
Jael has made the same mistake that many make, and not only as it regards religion. She paints with a broad brush. Additionally, she apparently doesn't understand passages of the Bible and needs to look back to the greek words to gain understanding.
I like my Jews breaded & fried, with Sweet/Sour sauce and some red wine. (Christians are better with marinara.)
Many unlearned people (Christians) do not realize that 90% of the people claiming to be Jewish today were never related ethnically to the Hebrews, David, Abraham, Solomon, Jacob, Moses or the Israelites, but merely converted to Judaism 800 years after Christ died. There were no Jews until after the second captivity that occurred after Solomon and after the 12 Tribes separated totally and were never reunited. [See Kings Rehoboam and Jeroboam]. What they worship is their business. There has been an active slight of hand project operated to make people believe that the people calling themselves Jews are descended from the original Israelites that came out of Egypt with Moses. This is a simple fraud easy to debunk.
Oh, sorry ... I don't watch TELL - A - VISION Thanks for the valuable update !
But more importantly - did you bring your towel??? I see Dak brought his!
I understand that Einstein and Velikovsky had become close, and that Einstein was actually reading Velokovsky's Book at the time of his death. Sometimes it's a blessing to NOT KNOW EVERYTHING ... Ask any Know-it-all !
I don't believe the Bible was written as a textbook. Nor was it a daily diary or log, for full of complete details of each and every conversation that took place. Thus far, from my reading and listening, it seems that the Old Testament was written by people from their perspective, their 'worldview'.....which would not have been the entire globe as it know it today. I saw where someone commented about Jonah in the whale's mouth and how they didn't believe the story. While I haven't looked it up in scripture yet, I've read where the word used was not actually 'whale', but something like sea creature or great sea creature. Also, even if it were a whale, it's possible he wasn't swallowed into the stomach wehre acids were........or if he was, that the whale was sick and not making acids. God, to be God, can do anything he wants---when he wants--and how he wants. His ways are not our ways. People, especially in todays' age, want instant gratification....they want what they want when they want it. IF he has to answer to anybody, then he couldn't be the Alpha and Omega; he'd be just another little ol god out there somewhere.
I don't think we were intended to know everything, if we did, why would we look to God for answers? (yes, I realize that not everyone on this thread looks to God) Even science has not provided us with all the answers yet. If it did, why are people still dying of Cancer or any other malady? I wish there were a common ground. Who's to say that BOTH "theories" of how we got here (Faith based and Science based) did not happen?
Let's be frank.. If you have an problem with dead people coming back to life, then you may as well just put the book down and go find something else to do. It's simply not for everyone.. Some were not called.
And such is the basis of true faith. And the reason these squabbles take place. Science says "impossible" while Faith says "All things are possible".
Actually, it we who should be laughing in a way......... For people to believe they somehow evolved out of some black soupy mass out in the hinterlands of a 'universe of black hole(s)' is what is unbelievable. You most certainly have the right to believe you evolved from monkeys. Myself, I believe God breathed some of his essense or being into the man he created, Adam, that made mankind unique, superior to animals and plants.
Glad you're here, too.
A very brilliant man, in my mind said: "I sure hope heaven is a very large kingdom because I can't stand most Christians and don't want to spend eternity around them" The angst that we see has been created by phonies, selling Jerusalem sand, 100 lb. Bibles, and Maps of the Holy Land, while preaching self-righteousness as a prerequisite to salvation. The distance that these assholes have created between man and God is a felony.
I love it when they spout off about " Morality" If there is no God, then their concept of what's "moral" is nothing more than the opinion of men. And, as we know.. men can come up with some very diverse ideas in this area. All of them cannot be correct and thus there is no true morality, except as defined by God himself.
Yes, that is as I read the scriptures.
While Greek Science said that the World was held up by a turtle on the shoulders of Atlas the Book Of Job said it was a circle and that the Moon "hung" upon nothing !
One of his names is the God of impossibilities.
It's simply not for everyone.. Some were not called. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead he was a lying lunatic. If he did, he was, as he stated, God.
I can't disagree with a thing you said. I feel anger when I see phonies acting as they do...and then at the people who at like lemmings without ever actually doing any sort of studying or trying to grow on their own. But overall, it is sadness at 'what might have been', because not everyone is gonna be 'over there'. The wide gate and narrow road thingie......
I don't think even lying lunatics can have others witness their deaths, be entombed, and then hide their own bodies after they have risen from the dead. But, I don't know much about lying lunatics, So maybe I am not knowledgeable enough to comment on such matters.
=0) yes, that is one of His names, isn't it?
You said it earlier, and it's really the "prozac" relief for Christians, and that is this: None cometh to the Father except they be called by the Spirit. The Free Will theory is designed by God, and if your His I'd advise you to notice the calling, because when you don't recognize that you're being called He is forced to chasten you into changing your will to fit His. He's God and He don't have to play fair. I found out the hard way, and it's not necessary. You just need to pay attention better than I did.
I wasn't saying that I don't believe He is Arisen, I do. I was just saying that all of Christianity rests upon the resurrection. If He didn't resurrect it's over, and He was a Liar. I don't personally believe that's the case. I also think that if the Jews could have proven He didn't resurrect ... they would have done so. Quite the opposite happened. And the amount of hatred for Christ that is commonly demonstrated by Jewish attacks upon Nativity Scenes, Crosses or references to God in school certainly make me wonder what makes them continue to crucify him 2000 years later.
I know that. =0)
To be fair, it isn't only Jews who react strongly to Nativity scenes, etc..
My investigations have shown that it is generally organizations being run by Jewish people such as the ACLU, or Jewish Lawyers, that are "offended" by public displays of Christ. Also, the Babylonian Talmud describes Christ as the bastard son of a whore impregnated by a roman soldier. If necessary I can find the Talmudic Book and Verse.
Around these parts, Agnostics, Gays, and people of "political correctness" also strongly oppose Nativity scenes. In Cincinnati, The KKK fights for a permit to put up a cross downtown. I don't know if it's right or wrong - but it is normally unanimously opposed by everyone because of the Klan's association with cross burning, etc. I just was pointing out that it isn't only Jews who oppose these things - there are a number of other groups who oppose anything related to Christianity.
Also, I am no expert on the Talmud, as it is not a book I have aspired to read yet. I have an arsenal of unread books already. Isn't the Talmudic faith a form of Jewish mystisism? (please excuse spelling errors).
Truthfully, it's much ado about nothing, a distraction that is aggravating to many Christians. The Bible speaks against graven images of any sort. That should be the end of it.
If the American public as a whole ever were able to read the talmud en masse, there wouldn't be a Jew allowed in America a week later.
Sometimes, it takes harder whacks upside the head. Some time ago, I heard Doc Scott teaching about Romans 1 about how God had left evidence of his being. That those who ignore Him become godless and he turns them loose/gives them up to the perverseness of evils, including men loving men, and women to women. And then on into Romans 2, Paul cautions against judging these people because God had turned them loose into their perversions. Scott's explaining of various words in Greek really help with the understanding of what was meant because the Greek uses definitive words. We lost a real scholar with his death. I hopeful Mrs. Scott continues in the same vein of teaching.
Keep your faerie tales straight, Cledus. They read the book of common prayer in Mass. Talmud is probably a synagogue thing.
What about the "God of Rigged Games?" I still don't know how you can say we have free will if he knows every choice we will make. ;) Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle applied to theology. Simply put, no one can know everything.
what???
He's talking about pre-destination.
Then the game is rigged, and all bets are off. He doesn't play fair, there's no reason for me to either. He can go his own way, I go mine.
Very good, grasshopper. ( I lost your Yahoo ID, by the way). If all this is "foreordained" from the git go, then there is no free agency called "will". He knows the sparrow when it falls, he knows the choices we will make. If the outcomes are predetermined, there's no free will, and not a "hell" of a lot we can do about it.
I guess you are safe then.
And if not, my friend, there's nothing I could have done about it anyway. Recall Judas, who 'twould have been better if he'd had a millstone tied around his neck and drowned in the depths of the ocean, or to have never been born. He was dead meat from the start.
Well, I can't speak for God.. However, the way it appears to me is that, like any good manager, he puts systems in place and allows them to operate. When he does not is commonly known as a "mircale" When we thing of God's laws, we think of the Ten Commandments.. but there are many others which don't get the attention they deserve. Like gravity, for example. If you choose to jump off a building, his laws happen and you fall. Did he throw you off? No, you jumped and his systems processed you just liek they would a water baloon or anything else. We can't choose what color we are or where we are born.. (As such, I always thought these superficial & trivial details were no way to judge a man, as they are outisde his control) BUT! we can choose what we think and believe. This is the true measure of a man and is amounts to his net worth. But that's not your point, is it? You point is: "If God knows everything from the past to the future, he can just skip the nonsense and judge every man on the choices he would have made, and he can do it right now." Truly, he could.. However this does not glorify him. IMO, he would rather allow men to decide and then live by their decisions.
"miracle" rather.. For example: If I had a post without a single typo, it would be considered a "Miracle"
Okay Sam, you have proven to the entire board that you loath Christianty. Point taken. Now leave the thread die. I am tired of debating your twisted and biased views. You have made your side perfectly clear and so have I. As have others. It's time to put this debate to rest before more animosity occurs.
Perhaps God knew his heart and the choices he would make? He allowed him to continue, regardless.. and let his systems work.. Even knowing Judas would grow into a man, and kill his only begotten son. I'd call that free will.
very well reasoned and rationally put. I did feel the need to tell you this before I left the thread die in peace. I am too tired to reason any further.
He can go his own way, I go mine. LOL, God is the cat, and you are the mouse, I'm a stone atheist, but I have respect for some religios people and despise others. I despise some atheists too, jerks that call police when I sing Frosty Snowman too loud at night.
Frosty's a gaywad.. and decent people are trying to sleep!
Jesus Freak! Don't make me start posting Frank Burns quotes.
You're the one playing with the flag on my mailbox, aren't you? Commie!
typo, but that works too...
The Dune Buggy? No, I don't know what you're talking about.
Geezel.. Don't mention that.. (There's still 6 mos on the statute of limitations, for crying out loud.)
Really, He can go His way, and you will go wherever He says and His way ... it's all His and it all goes His way.
No, he is "not willing that any be lost"
And there's hope for Sam.. For all his bullshit here on the Forum, he has a very good working knowledge of Christianity. He is missing the spiritual part. He's into mechanics.
He's "caught up" in the mechanics, rather..
No, but they worship a man that is a direct descendant of that same king, and if Israel had existed as a country, he would have been that countries rightful king.
You are ignorant of these things because you have not read the scriptures. He did not desire to be "King" Fled from it, in fact. He seemed to prefer hanging around "sinners" actually.
I've been all over the map myself, from Christian to atheist and multiple points in-between. Here's what I think I've figured out. You know why religions have the power that they do, even though they often require their adherents to believe things that would strain the credulity of a five year old child? Because at their most fundamental level they have some real and vital truth there. You know why atheists and their adherents have so much power in their arguments against various religions? Because they have a lot of truth on their side as well. I think Ghandi said it best when he said "Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is". What we call religion is the social construct and structures that get erected around the original revelation of whichever prophet you want to name, from Elijah to Jesus to Buddha to Mohammed to Krishna to Bahá'u'lláh. So what are these revelations that I'm referring to, that have the power to change the destiny of nations? If you go to near-death.com and read up on the stories there, I think one can quickly surmise a premise that states "all great religions begin with near-death experiences, stimulated by one kind of event or another". Now for this argument to have any validity, one has to suppose that there really is something to what people experience during their near-death experiences. This is a subject that I'm rather interested in, and I've got more ideas about this to share, but lets just start with this for now.
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ROTFLMAO! That, my dear, would be MY MIRACLE, too.
He stops in to push buttons.. But, in truth.. He has a much better working knowledge of what's written than most. There's more than what's written, however.. and that's what trips him up.
Hey, I know a genuine Miracle when I spell check..
Can't blame all that on every belief system that ever sprung fom the mind of man. Good systems sometimes punish good people, but it's better than 24/7 lockdown. Although I don't believe in a Supreme Being, I can't help but notice a groove, a vibration that bounces around everything in its path. Plants, people, doggies, iguanas, we are all part of this magical ether.
A thread without an "asteroid orifice" would seem miraculous to me !
MacGregor Ministies (A Christian Outreach to those trapped in cult groups.)
They're all cornholers.. And sell that stupid car, it's evil..
There used to be a guy in the San Fernando Valley named Engine Joe who rebuit VW Engines.
German engines? Has Jazzfan been consulted?
Done, master! Traded the heap in for sixty-one and one half hours of guaranteed access to ... damn, ripped off again....
What exactly is an "asteroid Orifice"? Do I dare ask?
Could Bush worship be considered a cult? If so, maybe the people on LP could benefit from MacGregor Ministies. They're pretty much all cornholers over there too - Trace, BAC and numerous other funny types. Check out the Rove thread to see the drivers behind this - they're being discussed there as we speak. The nexus between botdom and serious pole smoking.
Oh no, not "Nibbies Adult Site" I could have told ya they were a rip off.! Just based on general knowledge and water cooler talk and such.. you know.
By any objective standard I can imagine.. Yes.
Please pass the bleach so i can get the mental picture out of my mind that your post placed there! UGH!
It impacted with the planet long ago and wiped out several key species. Homo Erectus among others. Did you know that horses were smaller than fruit flies long ago? This was Itsy Hippus, the ancestor of modern horses. It also got wiped out by the orifice.
He's pretty creative.. No one ever mentions the downside to that sort of thing.
No, please don't ... could you ask Rowdee ???
No, please don't ... could you ask Rowdee ??? okay. Dee? you may want to PM this answer to me so as to lessen my embarrassment. =0)
you sir, are a trip!
He's correct, you know.. This impact fundamentally changed our species. As a result, we are now left with: 1) Hetero-straight-guaius 2) Homo-Traceus All modern men can be traced to these two similar, but very distinct species.
This is true. Personally, I can't believe the uproar over a book that is fiction. All the cardinal has done is ensure that many more copies will be sold. I have noticed the book, been curious about it. I'm almost tempted to go get it now just to see what all the fuss is about. Obviously something in that book has got the Vatican in a tizzy. I just happen to think it's more than Jesus being married.
interesting post, elliott. i, too, find near-death experience stories fascinating.
Ohhhhhhh boy! I like your definition best! :)
kelly, lol, do a visual in your mind.
I have a copy, just have too many books started to get to it yet. And you are right - people will rush to get a copy now. Maybe the Vatican will be persuaded to release the rest of the books in time with enough uproar.
I shall.....the
Personally, I'd be more comfortable with the idea of Jesus being married. The image of him never having a girlfriend and hanging out all the time with a bunch of old unmarried guys kind of bothered me. The business about washing their feet was really weird. The story about him clensing the leopards sort of redeemed him. Anybody that could give a leopard a bath isn't a complete sissy.
I don't see them EVER doing that.
You, dear lady, have mail!
Yes....your answer. I keep thinking, 'what part of fiction does this guy not get'?
I already have - If I have a CVA, it is crack monkeye's fault! man! between that and trying to figger out what an asteroid orifice is, i feel like Rose Nyland on the Golden Girls.....
what's a CVA?
There was a clip on the news tonight about how the Church is telling Catholics they can't read the book and now that the Church has said that, if they do, it will be a sin. My thought sitting there was there are only 10 sins I need to pay attention to. What the Church decides to make up as *sin* as they go is not factored in to my thinking. The Church needs to clean up it's own backyard before deciding on new sins for it's congregation. This crap is exactly why I am no longer a practicing Catholic.
The Catholic Church used to have a list of interdicted books. Catcher in the Rye was on it. I don't know if they still have it or not.
Unbelievable! More of the 'do dos and don't dos' of man-made religion.
That was mentioned on the clip as well. Stated the list hasn't been used since '68. They don't have any business banning anything.
There are pictures in the Middle of the Book, Glossies of Pope Pius in Drag, drinking freshly made wine with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, singing for the Wedding Feast at Cana ... "What a friend we have in Jesus" How's That ?
Oh. I thought it stood for Crowbars Visiting Alleycats.
Sheesh! It's FICTION. If the guy marketed it as anything else, I could maybe understand the uproar. IMHO the Church is just trying to get the focus off their pesky little priest problem.
Post it here man, put up or shut up.
That's why they let everyone eat meat on Friday now ... fucked up my mind when I was 13 years old eating hamburgers every Friday afternoon thinking ... shit, I'm going to hell for this, ... all through grade school ... peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, dry salmon (yuk), tuna fish, any other religion was looking good to me.
These same people think Saddam had nukes.. How will you explain complex things like Christianity, if they can barely dress themselves and fear daily of the chaotic and murderous "Ragheads" running loose in their midst?
LOL! I dunno, the Baptists have their own funny little rules as well. Arn't they the ones that forbid dancing? My in-laws still reserve Friday for fish. Last time they were here, I forgot and made pork. Guess I shoulda been glad they weren't muslim.
It has some basis in historical fact. I have the companion book "Breaking the Code", that discusses some of the historical research and thought behind Brown's book. Yes, he took artistic license, but there is fire underneath all that smoke, and legends going back into antiquity. The Catholics don't care much for it on several levels, not the least of which is the relationship between Jesus and the Magdalene, but also because they don't come off in a good light when it comes to manipulating what books went in the Bible and what was omitted. Divine guidance at times seemed more line eeny meeny miny moe. Or whatever version of that game they used in 760 AD.
One thing the Church has been very good at is manipulating. Took me a long time to see it, but once I did, I was out of there. I still believe in God, Jesus, and in an afterlife. I just go about it through channels other than organized religion now. Nice to see you btw, gotta go, hubby is due in any minute and he has been gone for almost two weeks. I suspect he won't want me pecking away on the computer and want some supper. BBL
I was merely attempting a little levity ... Pope Pious wasn't in drag, but did appear a little intoxicated !
How do you explain me?
Y'all been getting Don high?
Don, since this article and the following discussion has both began and then trended toward the abstract... I'm afraid I have no idea what you're referencing here. You are going to have to be specific if we are going to disagree on anything.
Damning me with faint praise, eh? OK, so I like to stir things a bit. This had the potential for a good discussion for people who have read Brown's book. Besides, we needed to talk about something besides Gannon and where he stuck his cannon, and the evil Jews are taking over the world scenario.
It's towlie... again!
Nah, just telling the truth. We both know enough to render the rest of this conversation moot.
Damn...it woulda been fun to discuss Gnostic gospels and the Nag Hammadi scrolls. :)
Ahhh.. Sam, you're wasting your potential..
You want an idea of something messing someone's mind up. My husband adopted his baby nephew when he married before. They were so afraid of the little guy finding out his real mother was husband's sister, who was married to a little marine who beat the shit out of her, drug her out of the birthing bed to fix him something to eat, etc. They signed the boy over to hubby, as the sister decided to join the military, too. When the boy was about 14, husband and wife split. The kids had been raised Catholic. It was at this time that the boy started acting up and doing crap to get in trouble. Turns out he had talked to his Grandpa about who his parents were. This kid was so screwed up trying to meld the religious aspect to legal aspect. In his mind, his mother/aunt and his father/uncle had had an incestous relationship with him being the product! Further complicate that by husband and his then wife---Catholics don't believe in divorce. She had been divorced before marrying (my) hubby, and didn't have a dispensation or whatever from the church! So the kid thinks she and hubby/dad/uncle were living in sin all that time. This kid was a real basket case. Just off the deep end......got into drugs. Finally, just before his 18th birthday, he wanted to enlist in the Army and straighten out. He made it through most of the service before medical problems caused his discharge. So far as I know, he's still fucked up because of it.
How do you explain me? Ok, we should agree or disagree on the foundation of the question anyway. I think that I am able to dress myself and drive a car anyway. I have no fear of the "chaotic and murderous "Ragheads" running loose." I did not vote for Bush. I voted third party. I am constantly talking in a negative manner about Bush and his cohorts. I think that I can understand fairly complex things. I turned down joining the Sigma Tau Delta English Society at the university. However today, I joined the university honor society which only something like ten percent of all of the students attending the university can join. There are over 2200 students on campus. There are other people here who are smart and still defend the Bible, Christians, and Christ. How do you explain us in your model above?
How? With a single word: Sarcasm..
Sarcasm is a wonderful art to develop.
You may find it compelling, but it does not rise to the level of "evidence."
And it is. Those of us who read books realize that writers often wrap their fiction around actual historical events. That doesn't magically turn their stories into truth.
So... Are you saying that if one religion can wipe out another and destroy all of the writings of the other, that automatically makes the murderous one the truth?
Worked for the US during the Civil War. Damned old Confederacy.
My comments have no relevance to the shenanigans that go on in a court of law. I was speaking to reason, reality and logic. But, if you wish to set reason, reality and logic aside, that indeed is your choice.
No, I don't think they actually thought Saddam had nukes. I think they knew that he did not. They just relished the thought of seeing the opposing religion suffer a few million killed.
Did you know that the Bible says "Call no man father but your heavenly Father ? Right off the bat the Catholic Church commits a misdemeanor violation by making kids call the priests "Father" ... and they are habitual in this effort, having violated this ordinance repeatedly for thousands of years. They have shown no remorse and continue this practice in violation of the Bible. The Catholic Church also makes rules as it goes, like no meat on Friday, and no Communion with the Lord unless you come to the table "WORTHY". Jesus said do this in remembrance of me, and he also said none are worthy, all men's righteousness is as filthy rags. Jesus was no bullshit artist and he didn't come here to hang out with the self- righteous hypocrits at the church. He even said a physician comes to heal the sick, not the healthy. That's us, and we don't start getting well until we remember Him, and forget us. However, the Catholic Church wrongly interprets scripture to keep their followers from "remembering Him".
When you learn what evolution ACTUALLY is and what it says, we'll talk, until then, you are just a superstitious ignorant savage as far as I am concerned. Learn a little science, your mind may actually expand, and you might, just might, learn to think for yourself.
You may find it compelling, but it does not rise to the level of "evidence." It's the best I could do on such short notice. What do you have for opposing evidence ? Make it "compelling" !
Poor Jhoffa, where else are you going to get fighters for a revolution? The high and mighty muckety mucks of the Roman Empire? Get a grip on reality...... If you know your history, and I assume that you at least know a itsy bitsy bit, the romans controlled the middle east in those days, and Israel did NOT exist. The "Messiah" was the Jewish Priest/warrior/king who would rightfully be the King of Israel, and throw the Romans out of Israel. Jesus was that man, he was rightful heir to the throne of David, but he FAILED, and failed miserably, therefore, the Jews do not and cannot accept him as the Messiah. Learn a little history, PLEASE...... BTW, when many of the Scriptures are looked at in that light, a lot of the weird ones become MOST evident of what Jesus was actually trying to do, and why, when the Romans came after his little butt, he faked his death and fled the country.
John 6: 14
"I was speaking to reason, reality and logic. But, if you wish to set reason, reality and logic aside, that indeed is your choice." Reason, reality, and logic. Ok, those things will do for a start. How do you prove the existence of God? A better question would be how do you disprove the existence of God when you can look up and see the stars and other bodies there or look here on earth and see the things that have been created here? Is it reasonable, real, or logical to think all of these things just popped into existence one morning. Where did they come from? There has to be a beginning to physical things. There has to be as Plato might put it the real or original from which all other similar things are copies. If there is a God, would He abandon his creation or get bored with it? Lets consider the case of a father and a son for a moment. Would most human fathers abandon his son. A son is a copy of the father. We are told that God made man in His image in the Bible. You don't believe in the Bible? Use your own human experience. Would you abandon a child made in your image? Most men wouldn't. Oh, I forgot. You don't believe in the Bible so how do we know that man is made in God's image? Well, something was made in God's image. You don't create something out of a vacuum. Lets consider just the animals are made in God's image. Or just the earth itself is made from God's image. Well, God created all of those things. If most men would not abandon their creation, why would God? It isn't reasonable, real, or logical to think that everything was just created without a supreme maker or that the supreme maker would just abandon His creation. What about Christ? We still don't believe in the Holy Bible so lets toss it out for the moment. The Jewish historian Flavius Josephus has some comments in his history that might be of interest to you. The Holy Bible, of course, is still the main source of information about Christ and Christianity. Paul never met Christ, but he knew Peter and other disciples who did know Christ. Paul got his information from the people who personally knew Christ and were with him from the beginning of his ministry to the end of his time on earth. If there are books that were left out of the Holy Bible, still Paul knew those people who knew Christ. So, his version of what happened must be true. Wait a minute. You say that Paul's writings were filtered and even changed to make the man Jesus into Christ, the son of God? The true story is that Jesus died as a man and never rose on that third day. And, that the Jews are right in still awaiting their king. There comes that dividing line between faith and disbelief, right? The smart people are on the side of disbelief. The other side...well...they should know better to put it charitably. Ok, is the Bible correct in simple facts like the existence of long dead cities? Archeologists are constantly coming up with their findings. So, if the Bible is right in one thing maybe other things are also true. Biblical prophecy is an interesting area. It even talks about the rebirth of Israel some 2,000 years later. Gee, it was just a lucky guess, I suppose. "provided you violate the rights of no person in the process. Have at it. Believe what you will. " Thank you for your courtesy. I appreciate you allowing me to do that. I would also appreciate it if you don't violate any rights that Christians might have such as being allowed to obey what they think is the will of God in certain matters such as preaching the gospel. "if the cardinal wishes to make accusations against the written works of other, he best look in the mirror first, else he stands to be laughed at for the fool that he makes himself. " You can send the Pope a letter and advise him of that if you wish. He might even take the time to read it. I am not a Catholic so I don't take great exception to you calling him a fool, but I am sure that many Roman Catholics would take exception with you on that statement.
PS: Aric, you waste of breath.. it matters not who the "Jews" you speak of "accept" Perhaps you should study a bit?
It would be a simple exercise - if he in fact existed. But, since he does not, you are forced to play word games and delve into logical fallacy in order to obfuscate an appearance of proof.
it's the thread that never ends! Sing along everyone! Second Verse - Same as the First!!!
You are welcome to preach - on your own property. Just don't expect me to be swayed by the silliness.
When you get a little time, could you see your way clear to educating us "superstitious ignorant savages." We could use your help. For example, is it true that evolution teaches that man evolved from the apes? A yes or no answer here would be of interest to us all.
The property is the world. That is how it goes. You just aren't safe anywhere.
Then please do so sir, I (among others) would like to see said proof.
I am not the one asserting his existence, so I am not the one in a position to be challenged to prove his existence. You should have posted that challenge to Don.
A much better example of a fallacy of logic is to deny what is in front of your face. You qualify for that award much better than I.
You don't own the world. Your free speech rights end at the borders of your property. If you wish to preach at me on my property, then you are a trespasser and will be treated as such.
I suppose he can tell us "savages" by our "Bible Thumping"? THUMPTHUMPTHUMPTHUMPTHUMP! ;0) Or can he tell us by our cannibalism?
You are much more challenged in denying it.
In front of my face? No, there's no god there. Just a computer. Do you worship bits-n-bytes?
But you were the one who said it would be a simple exercise, right?
If you understood even a shred of logic, you would know how comical your position is.
Indeed it would be simple -- IF SUCH A THING AS A god EXISTED. It is a simple matter to prove existence of things that exist. Something as significant as a god would be the easiest of all -- if it existed. But, it does not. That's why believers have never been able to produce him.
Then, you are very blind indeed.
You want God to prove His existence to you say...in a courtroom? Or, maybe in your living room would be a better place for your immediate comfort? God is all around you and you can't see him because you believe He is there. I point out the heavens and everything here on earth as created things from a source, and you blow right past it. You don't want to face that issue. It might cause you to think, and in time it might even cause you to doubt your doubt. We couldn't have that, could we?
Not at all. I don't see ghosts, angels, supernatural beings, fairies, dragons, easter bunnies or gods. Why? Because they just aren't there. I refuse to subvert my mind and pretend that these fantasies exist. But, if you ever come up with some actual verifiable evidence, let me know.
And science has never been able to discount Him. this is a round robin argument that is making no head way. Neither side will be swayed. Let's just talk about the thread topic - what ever it was. minds are not gonna be a changin' I know mine isn't and I am fairly sure your's isn't either. Truce???
Fast typing: because you don't believe He is there
Fredwin on Evolution your opinion, Aric?
Not good enough. You are not addressing what I said about created things.
What is it with this courtroom fetish of yours? You point to everything EXCEPT your god. If you want to prove the existence of something, then you have to actually present proof of THAT THING! You can't prove that the planet Venus exists by pointing to your Ford Pinto. But hey, if that's all you've got...
You aren't even trying. Who created the universe and earth?
Don, lets just call a truce - or this thread will never die. We both know the existence of God. Mr. Buzzcut and other deny it. That is their choice. I admire your tenacity, and I am sure God has worked miracles in your life, as He has mine. Neither side is going to budge and I hate to see anyone be labled "savages" or "heathens". Let's just call it a night? okay?
I do not wish to convert you to atheism. You'll do that on your own when you are ready. I just enjoy the process of debate on this topic because for so many years religion has demanded compliance at the point of a sword.
Maybe he gets that one from Bambi. I have been watching Bambi. I think Feline is a cute little doe. Anyway, remember the rabbit, Thumper?
I was just starting to have fun. But, He can't answer my questions anyway. Have you bought Bambi yet?
you shared with me, once, something about a past vocation which makes your current belief system an enigma..or perhaps it was the antecedent?
Never going to happen sir, not in this lifetime. And with that, I will bid you a good night!
Aric, when you do a hard study of the resurrection, why don't you get back to us with something beyond a hahaha. I don't consider you a superstitious anything, nor a savage, nor ignorant--just unlearned in some areas.
And that has been my point from the getgo of debating this stupid topic. Science can't use god, because god is nonfalsifiable, therefore ANYTHING that claims that god did it, had a hand in it, or some miracle occurred is NOT scientific. At the same time, Science cannot disrpove that god exists, therefore, Science cannot and will not touch the topic of god. Any scientist that says that god does not exist because the facts prove it, is full of crap, and anyone that says science is crap because it discounts god, is ALSO full of crap. Science cannot disprove god, and religion cannot prove that god exists. Bit of a quandry there, but neither can disprove the other, and will NEVER be able to.
I heard that! ROTFLMAO....... I think someone is mixed up.....that 'thumpity thump thump' sound goes with Peter Rabbit, or was it the Easter Bunny our friend was lamenting early on in this thread?
The resurrection, oohhh, shall we discuss? That will be fun... The resurrection of Jesus NEVER happened, BTW, it was faked, he FLED the holy land, for his life. The sherriff was after his ass and his families ass to. Best thing to do, pay off the magistrate, fake your death and run like hell. Which is EXACTLY what happened. BTW, the raising of Lazarus, was a mystical exercise, Lazarus was Never really dead, he died of his old life, and was reborn again. Interesting that, huh? He was literally put into a tomb, and then his teacher, his mentor, would come in, wake him up from his death and bring him back into his new life of enlightenment.
Damn, I missed that post, can you point me to it, this thread is getting REALLY long....LOL
Did you know there is no such thing as time? It's all an illusion!
BAC? BAC??! Please say it isn't so!
Cast not your pearls before swine !
He was literally put into a tomb, and then his teacher, his mentor, would come in, wake him up from his death and bring him back into his new life of enlightenment. That's a Skull and Bones ... Secret Society mystical practice that is the satanic practice, Christ's followers were baptized in water. Lazarus was in the tomb, 4 days, wrapped in the death cloth, while at the same time his sister (Mary Magdalene) and others were in mourning at the house. The Scriptures note that his body smelled like one would after being dead for 4 days. Where did Lazarus die ? Where was he buried ?
All human speech, (verbal or written), that does not concern factual physical matters, and that is not mere social lubricant, is about a -- “Search For The Truth.” Men may call their particular activity the study of: History, Anthropology, Psychology, Philosophy, Theology, Sociology, Political Science, The Liberal Arts, etc, but the underlying reality is and has always been the same thing: A search for -- “THE TRUTH.” You do not have to be an academic, or even know how to speel, “philosophy” to be so engaged for every time a man talks about the kinda guy he is, or comments on one football team’s superiority, or denounces some other person’s opinions on any subject, the man is engaged in -- A Search For “The Truth.” Note that I put, “The Truth” in quotation marks, since even though, everybody believes it exists, there is no common agreement as to how it can be objectively recognized. A man telling you about the kinda guy he is, is searching for the TRUTH about what he is via his endless, self-centered palaver, yet there is no pre-established standard set by which he will be able to ultimately recognize the truth about what he is as separate from all that he has said about himself that is not. And men debating the relative merits of different sports teams have no final, impartial model by which to make a conclusive determination of, “The Truth” about which is the better team. And verbal tug-of-battles in all other second reality areas such as: politics, religion, economics, morality, are in the same situation. The cellular activity in men’s brains called, the mind, is in a relentless search for, “The Truth,” but will admit to having no advance notion as to how it is to be correctly recognized -- if found. (The popularity of religions is based on their claims of having such knowledge from extrinsic, suprahuman sources; brain cells pointing their little fingers away from themselves as they insist that the image they just made up ACTUALLY EXISTS! -- “just over there somewhere.”) Those of a more metaphysically wired mind of course, profess it to BE, “Metaphysical,” perhaps being SO removed from everyday life as to be beyond human comprehension, (but fun to think about anyway), but as is always the case, (if not the sixpack), to a clear channel eye -- the matter is not nearly so uncertain -- it’s just a matter of the mind being a creature of a reality of which it was also the creator -- which, pragmatically, results in a situation wherein, (as should be a surprise to no one), an eyeball in a Dali painting cannot, even with its very best efforts, ever see itself in context, or perceive its origin. The Little Mermaid can never recognize Christian Anderson as, “The Truth.” There it is, and there is nothing else to say. The first word said after that is useless, and any after that -- misdirective. But note: even after hearing the truth about, “The Truth,” your mind is probably not instantly Enlightened, and satisfied -- it still wants to argue and debate the issue; pick holes in the sentence; accuse it of gross “materialism,” (Ooooooo! the mystic’s ultimate insult & dismissal!) But there it is and there it remains: The “Truth” is what happens. The instinct mind of the brain knows this full well, always has, ‘s’never been in question; the entire life of your body operates by the principle; it is your hand selecting; your mouth opening; your throat swallowing; your stomach accepting, your bowels boweling so that life in your case – goes on, all based on this simple reality: The truth is what happens. …(and of course if you somehow ate poison -- you died, and that was the “truth” of what happened in that particular instance.) The routine cellular activity that produces thought in our brains is not arranged in such a manner as to act like a mouth that can swallow itself…. ….which is about what it takes to, “Wake up”; ordinary thought cannot take in completely the reality of those five words: ”The truth is what happens” in that it is immediately unable to see that what EVER comment it may have in reaction thereto IS now a part of “what happened” -- that every time your thought denies the truth of the statement, your denial becomes part OF the truth of the statement. Trying to shake your brain’s cellular activity of consciousness into a new mode of operating is truly akin to a mouth attempting to swallow itself, and staying frustrated, and unable to accomplish this is due simply to your failure to recognize how things are in your own neural headquarters. Your heart, lungs and all the rest of your body know that -- “The Truth” is what happens, but the thoughts that normally occupy your mind never will -- they never can. The job of thoughts is to think about what happens in life in ways OTHER THAN it is, for only by so operating is man able to change the natural conditions of this planet to better accommodate his particular needs, and while neural activity is a boon to his physical life, it seems disinclined to do anything beneficial for itself, in the sense of self-scrutiny & revelation, the very stuff of specific interest to those men already being driven by their own neurons urging to, ”Search for The Truth” – (which in truth IS): a search for the truth about thought. …and in this -- you get no natural help from your own thoughts. What a game! -- what a sport, the reality of which, few -- even among, “The Few” -- ever come to realize. The simplicity of it completely confuses the mind; the brain does not produce thoughts for the purpose of dealing with simplicities -- Nay, on the contrary, thought is specifically constructed to work with the physical complexities that are the conditions of life, and to break them down into simpler, mentally manageable pieces, but thought, as now constructed, is not built nor intended for the contemplation of the simple and obvious,and is not programmed to have an interest in how thing ARE, but rather, as they COULD be; not interested in the “Truth” of what happens, but an open-ended, “Truth” that is forever arguable. The “Truth” about things, to a man’s ordinary thinking, is whatever his thinking can momentarily imagine they COULD be, while the truth to superheated thinking is: What ever happens - -- not whatever the thoughts in your brain SAY happened; not whatever they say COULD have happened, and not anything they say SHOULD have happened; this is what makes up "the truth" of ordinary reality, but is not the one perceived by a man who can see-to-the-bottom-of-things; he takes into account only what happens, both -- “out there" (in life), and, ”in here” -- in what is apparently -- him. Nothing that will ever naturally pass through your mind will ever reveal to you, “the truth” about things; only the things themselves can do that -- and they do so -- relentlessly! Life is revealing to you, "the Truth" at every moment, by letting you witness what actually -- happens. It is then up to you whether you see it or not, and recognize that what you see happening is the long sought-for “Truth" -- and that there IS no other. ….simple, huh?! and neater’an the curl in a pig’s tail. Oink! -- galahad -- oink.
I'm not surprised Tom Hanks would be in a movie like this. I sincerely hope this movie flops.
The Bible is a religion? The Gnostic Gospels are a religion?
And here we stand at loggerheads, as Don said earlier. You can't prove that is.. .I can't prove to you that it isn't...
which is why I generally aviod theological arguments: they resolve little and prove even less. But I do have this question for the more theologically inclined here: Do dogs go to heaven? Do living being other than humans go to heaven?
I imagine Mel Gibson won't be among the producers.
Got A Bible?
I think there is one here somewhere. Do you know what page?
I just knew Santa Claus was real since I saw him once at the shopping mall. (Wow, that was a long post and I guess if it saves Santa Claus it was worth it).
Mr. Buzzcut, do you believe there exists a thing called "Love" ... if so prove its existence. Do you love your parents ? Did your mother love you ? Prove the existence of this "thing" called love then.
Are you in a hotel? Should be in that top drawer ... under the phone.
start at page #1 right through to the end. You'll probably find what your looking for if you ignore conventional Christian beliefs and focus on what it really says.
Never is an often misunderstood period of time ... we should "never" say "never" ... I have found that whenever I have poorly chosen this word NEVER to express my determination regarding almost any subject ... never is just around the corner.
You can try it with the Grimm's Fairy Tales too. Works about the same. Morality plays with a supernatural twist.
The Founding Fathers didn't agree with you...
This thread and the longevity of Christ's Gospels are very similar. The harder the Sanhedrin tried to extinguish Jesus ... the more Jesus tended towards expansion ! Long live the debate.
Sorry, wrong on ALL counts, this is NOT a skull and bones mystical satanic exercise. Jesus was a nazarene, and as a nazarene and a mystic, it was one of the exercises that a teacher went through with a student when the student had graduated. You don't know your history very well, but then again, that's not unexpected.
Time is relative change. An abstract illusion of dimension.
Psst! Over here! You gotta know your quarry. With this guy, it's ALWAYS a skull and bones mystical satanic exercise.
The existence of God is a matter of faith, and always will be a matter of faith. Unless God comes down to earth and starts working miracles at some point in the future, which is NOT going to happen, then there will never be any proof positive or negative to the existence of god. The rapture as some Christians call it is NOT going to happen, and Jesus is not coming back to take the Christians to heaven nor start a 1000 year reign. So sorry charlie, but it was made up by selfish men for selfish reasons, the miracles were never miracles and are misunderstood by most people, and of course by most Christians. Christians, as such, take the bible at face value, claiming that it is the word of God, well, sorry, it is the word of man, written down by men, to control other men.
Oh no, say it isin't so! BAAAAWH
Capps asked very politely if we would drop this subject for the time being before permanent hard feelings were created. I agreed to her request. I'm sure the topic will come up again and we'll have the opportunity to jump back in with both feet. But, until then -- be well. :-)
Perhaps you recall this sad news event: Jesus a "No Show" At New Year's Eve Rapture Party, Causing 167 Baptists To Plummet to Their Deaths A police officer and several pastors watch as Mrs. Cartwright dangles from an oak tree, wondering when she will finally fall to the ground. DES MOINES, IOWA (AP) Almost one hundred members of Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemakers and their spouses were killed at a December 31, 1999 "Rapture Bon Voyage" party. All of the women had paid Mrs. Betty Bowers $34,000 to be among the first to be taken to heaven as Jesus' special guest at the stroke of midnight. Party attendee Mr. Tommy Jenkins had reportedly told friends, "Eunice was real excited about scraping enough money together to get to go. It was Becca's college money, but Eunice knew it was End Times so there wasn't going to be no college and Mrs. Bowers always does everything really nice. Eunice wanted to go out with a little flourish." The party was held on the rooftop of the 35 story Landover Hotel & Prayer Convention Facility. Special 40 foot golden staircases had been constructed to start the partygoers on their journey up to heaven. Hourly catering staff dressed as angels were positioned at the top of each staircase to beckon the partygoers on to Heaven at midnight. The exclusive party featured everything from Petrossian caviar to French nonalcoholic "Champagne-like" sparkling beverage for the teetotalling Baptist crowd. "I knew something was amiss," lamented Mrs. Bowers, "when I went to open a case of Clicquot for my millennium party in Maui and realized it was that dreadful faux-champagne I'd ordered for Landover. UPS must have swapped the orders. And the implications of that blunder didn't occur to me until those dear BITCHs were already dead. To be as honest as my Savior, I was simply too busy worrying about how the mix-up would be the figurative death of my party to stop and think how it might lead to the actual death of those poor women who never drink even an unpretentious hock, much less a lovely quality champagne." An obviously homosexual waiter for the event recounted, "I told several of the ladies that I was going to cut them off because they were getting real drunk. But they told me that they never drink and they were just 'drunk in the Spirit.'" He then rolled his eyes and added in that snide, homosexual way of theirs: "Spirits was more like it." According to the waiter, all of the partygoers were horrendous tippers and as it got closer to midnight they started to walk up the golden staircases located all along the periphery of the roof. "They were yelling things like 'I'm coming, Jesus,'" recalled the fey waiter. When the Landover Chapel bell struck twelve, each member of Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemakers grabbed her husband's hand and began racing up the golden staircases. As each got to the last step, they threw themselves off the side of the 470 foot building and into the waiting arms of Jesus. According to eyewitness accounts, however, Jesus, apparently tied up elsewhere, was a "no show" and was regrettably not able to stop them from denting car hoods, flattening expensive shrubbery or staining the sidewalks below. Mrs. June Gordon was the only Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemakers member on the roof not to make the fateful leap. Crying, she told Channel 2: "Wanda June told me that 'If you have faith in Jesus, you will jump and His warrior angels will swoop down to take you to heaven.' I am embarrassed to admit it, but I did not have enough faith so I did not jump. I am so jealous of all them who died because they had the faith to jump. I will now be sent to Hell for not trusting Jesus." The first witness to the gruesome scene on the ground was Mrs. Jerry Johnson. "I was up on the roof when it was decided that we was going to "Jump to Jesus" at midnight. But I was wearing kick-pleats. What a stupid choice for jumping off the top of a building! I realized that they would just fly up and I didn't want to flash my Personal Savior and have Him think I was some kind of trailer-trash slut and just let me fall. So, I went home to put on a long skirt with thicker unmentionables. By the time I drove into the parking lot, I heard Mrs. Tomkin yell, 'Catch me, Jesus!' as she threw herself off the roof. She was the first to hit the sidewalk. It sounded like a big bag of wet flour. You know, that Italian fellow Galileo said that stuff falls towards Hell at the same speed, no matter how heavy, but Wanda Madison, who is kind of plump, bless her heart, hit that Town Car way before Karla Johnson. And they jumped at the same time. Once again, fine Christians have proved the falsity of secular science." Adroitly deflecting questions of culpability in the deaths, Mrs. Bowers, when reached on her lanai in Hawaii, said, "Well, I thought it was going to be the end. But everyone makes mistakes. Even God started over with Noah when He realized He'd botched His first try at populating the Earth. And this Second Coming business is inherently tricky. I mean, even Jesus told his disciples that he would return before they had all died. So, when your own Personal Savior is clueless and makes wildly exaggerated claims, it makes mortal prognostication rather dicey." When asked why Mrs. Bowers wasn't with the women from Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemakers, Mrs. Bowers stated, "I was with them in spirit. But I had to be at the most divine Millennium party in Sydney and then take the Gulfstream up to Maui to celebrate the new century again with 325 close friends at my place there. And when you are hostessing that many people, you really have no business running off and jumping off buildings. I received news of the deaths just as the clock was about to strike midnight in Hawaii. I said the most lovely and heartfelt toast to the people who had died and we decided that each time someone blew a noisemaker, it would be in memory of those dear dead women. It was remarkable how the whole party joined in on the commemoration. Such a noise! It was really rather moving. Indeed, the whole evening turned out wonderfully. My party was fabulous and I would hardly call the Bringing Integrity To Christian Homemaker's Bon Voyage party a failure. I mean, in addition to to-die-for food, all I promised them was that at midnight they would be with Jesus. And, unless there were sins I am unaware of, that is precisely where they are. So, of course, there will be no refunds." Commenting on the tragic deaths, Pastor Deacon Fred told the Landover congregation on Sunday, "All people are precious in God's eyes, but our Gold Level Tithers are particularly precious to us at Landover. And we lost 14 of them. We are asking the rest of the congregation to take a moment from their grieving to make up the difference." Assessments will be mailed Monday.
Now see, you can post stuff like that, and get laughs. If I post it, I'm the freakin anti-Christ and I get bozoed off the map. ;)
Your problem is that you have a good heart and you care too much. Looking for an ambassadorship to Somali?
Why, no! I'm "laying up treasures in heaven." (smirk) You're right, I do care too much. It's just the internet. A "bozo" or two doesn't affect a dime's worth of my paycheck or rob my table of a single morsel of food. :D
*sigh* You understand the Four S's ... shelter, sustenence, sex and stimulation ... the rest is poppycock.
Where is that Bozo Button Rowdee ???
From Betty Bowers?? That's rather like the Onion.. hardly to be taken seriously.
Ok, citizen...be well. Joy, Joy.
Shall we go to Taco Bell for sustenance?
Have you heard the story about the two buzzards sitting on a limb? One buzzard turns to the other one and states, "Patience, Hell. I'm gonna go out and kill something."
Taco Bell, the dining pleasure for all good citizens.
Wait..that's really just three. Unless you meant MENTAL stimulation. :D
Poor baby. The digital equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying LALALALALALALALALA. Bozoing is a sign of weakness, be it in argument, constitution, or backbone.
Shit-heads, Sour-Pusses, Suck-asses and Sams
C'mon. Bozo me, you know you want to. Wuss.
Of course goofball ... I meant mental stim ... but then you couldn't call it the 4 S's, now could you? Shelter/Sustenance/Sex and MS ... now doesn't that sound great? A dreadful neurological disease or Morgan Stanley on the NYSE. Next you'll be asking if I didn't mean S&M ... you can see where this is leading, can't you?
You mean that you're NOT??? Dang! I just lost the bettig pool!
For your Do-Si-Do..
Multiple...Bozos?
If I was the anti-Christ, I wouldn't be working for a living and I'd have more concubines than I currently have. Besides, I'm thin on top and that 666 birthmark thing would be a bit overt and tend to scare the Fundies. Hmmm, I just saw something there. "Fundies" = "FUN DIES"
Naw ........... we already have a POTUS Bozo for four more _ears ... why complicate our lives?
I agree, I was referring to the weird practice of bozoing folks that "talk dirty". When God closes a door, Satan can enter "innuendo."
I'm the freakin anti-Christ It took every ounce of restraint on my part to resist responding to this foot- in-mouth remark. Thank you.
Aww...cute. You're just dyin to share what you think passes for wit and you want someone to ask you?
Great. Let's talk in innuendo, euphemisms and glittering generalities. No body understands us anyway, so what the heck. Sometimes I think you are one chip short of a portion ...
I had him down as a "useful Idiot" and one of Satan's lesser minions...
Neat graphic. Around Shakespeare's time?
Still leading with your charm , eh, Flint? Remind me again why you're still breathing American air? I thought you were gone as of November 2. What's keeping you? I'm sure they have some sort of net access in Central America.
Here's a modest review of the thread topic ... Da Vinci Code Your Life Everything is interwoven. Jesus tongue kissed Mary Magdalene, a lot. Potent juicy mystical secrets are everywhere, if you know where to look. Organized religion is the worst possible answer. What supposedly sacred truths are available to us are all relative to those who hold the power. Often, just behind the facade of things is a huge hunk of gorgeous convoluted magic you would do well to lick. Meanwhile, the divine feminine is right there, winking, sighing heavily, waiting for you. Like, duh. And oh yes, there are so many repressed buried burned crushed or otherwise flayed secrets of the true nature of divinity floating in the air like a mad delicious perfume, mysteries that have been rather nauseatingly overpowered by the rank dank cologne of the patriarchal church -- it's all you can do to breathe deeply anymore without gagging on all the repressed sexuality and stale machismo. This much we know. Simple truths, all of them. And all so nicely mapped out in Dan Brown's deliciously well-researched (if rather flawed), still red-hot best-seller "The Da Vinci Code," that incendiary little page-turner packed like a hot sausage with combustible and wonderfully damning religious fact and insinuation and researched tidbit that all serve to make the church and its more uptight sects cringe and recoil and deny deny deny. So you know it must be true. Brown's is a book that, with the notable exception of a very bitter Mel Gibson and maybe the most denial-happy, millions of giddy readers have taken as radiant, irrefutable proof that we don't know nearly as much as we think we know, and a huge amount of what we've been force-fed by power-drunk religious orgs and political strategists lo these past centuries has been a gargantuan, sticky, carefully orchestrated deception. Not exactly shocking news, I know. Realizing those in power have swindled the world since time immemorial to preserve their hollow supremacy has become a bit of a cultural pastime. From well over 10,000 hideous sexual-abuse cases in the Catholic Church stretching back to 1950 to realizing how an American presidential regime has openly lied and betrayed the nation so as to lead our exhausted populace into two brutal unwanted wars and a paralyzing deficit just to further a corporate-crony agenda, you just sort of sit there and go, yeah, well, what else is new. But this is a bit different. The broad and rather intoxicating deceptions so refreshingly illuminated and carefully researched in Brown's book are of the kind that rattle worlds and question core beliefs and make your id sit up and go, hmm, maybe this means something slightly more, you know, potent. And wicked. And dangerous. In a good way. The book, of course, deals with hidden and long-buried truths surrounding the Holy Grail and all its concomitant intricate, astounding histories and secret societies and churchly deceptions, art and sex and pagan symbol, all very factual and well documented and all relating back to the "real" Jesus and his life, his true teachings and, of course, his wife -- and the church's ongoing, centuries-old oppression of the divine feminine. Hey, it's a page-turner. But it's also packed with enough intense and well-researched fact about art and religious "truth" and the church's repressed pagan history to make anyone but the most blindly devout begin to see things anew. But here's the divine gist: You don't have to stop with the book. The great thing about "The Da Vinci Code" is that it could very well do for the mass public what no other chunk of dense scholarly research, no subversive New Age movement, no horrific blood-drenched movie depicting the gruesome and sadomasochistic bludgeoning of a popular Jewish mystic could do: that is, offer the general public wide-open access to vital, unsettling questions of faith, of power, of Mystery with a capital M. It's true. Could the wild popularity of this little book mean we're more ready to hear more potent, revealing truths, to uncover the more divine meanings behind all those seemingly commonplace things we take for granted, to question those stagnant histories and false gods that have been so viciously forced upon us? Could it maybe indicate that we really are more ready than we've ever been to go beyond the church's meager misogynistic homophobic revisionist teachings, to start seeing the deeply mystical and hilariously twisted interconnectedness of the world? You think? I, for one, didn't want to read Brown's book. I am not much of a fan of quickie best-seller page-turners with minimal character development and nonexistent literary nuance and sledgehammer plot devices. But that's just the lit snob in me. I read it anyway. And I had a blast. And I realized, there is a lesson here. And it does not have to be about massive conspiracy theory. You do not have to agree with every conclusion in the book and start running around trying to uncover links to secret societies while sinister forces move about the Louvre. You do not even need to begin with the rather insidious and soul-delimiting dangers of organized religion. You can focus this kind of perspective, this awareness, on just about anything in your life. Food. Cars. Sex. Politics. Guns. You trust your instincts and pick at a thread of curiosity and you pull, read up and educate yourself, and pretty soon you're reading "Fast Food Nation" or "High and Mighty" or "Stupid White Men" and realizing not only how you've been duped but also how refreshing it is to see through the masks and the bogus marketing and the hidden histories. It does not have to be complicated. You simply begin to notice. You begin to see the signs, understand the symbols, the divine winks, realize that there are enormous hidden worlds of belief and interconnected history just under the manufactured and carefully orchestrated surface of things, mysteries that have long gone unnoticed or underappreciated or ignored but that are ready and eager for you to discover them anew. Old buildings have ghostly mystery. Cities are teeming with forgotten and often culturally blasphemous histories. Churches are packed with stolen pagan iconography. That enormous tree in the city park was there long before you were born and has stories of sex and revolution and lost dogs and time. See it? Simply put, taking Brown's book as a cue, you can begin to see the world with new eyes. And you can begin to understand that mystics were right: It is indeed a wildly animated, kaleidoscopic, convoluted, maddening, ever-morphing world -- one that is most certainly not all about allowing yourself to be trapped by the narrow mythology set forth in one, say, pseudo holy book's version of life, of flesh, of truth. After all, where is the mystery, the divine feminine thrust, the raw page-turning heat, in that?
That much is certain...
Hey, do you two have something going that you would like to share with the rest of us?
Hallelujah, amen.
I see you've still got that weasel up your ass.
Not sure Mr. Sharp Guy ... from the Un of New Hampshire ... but links don't link ... sorry.
Ok, just start up the crap again. Go ahead. Make my day.
Oh Gee. Now I am blushing.
It took every ounce of restraint on my part to resist responding to this foot- in-mouth remark. Thank you. Actually noone222, I was just teasing Sam - as I always do.
Still good at avoiding the pointed questions, aren't ya?
Well, if you would just stop writing it in Disappearing Ink...... Sheesh! Do I have to remind you of EVERYTHING??? ;0)
Hey, I'm just the Adversary. "HE" got the Omni stuff. I can only be one place at at time and handle so many tasks at once. You know how hard it is to get truly good demonic minions these days?
Just "pointed" heads ... pin-head !
I'm repentant ... really I am ... I know the end is nigh ... or neigh.
Now don't make me sic Mr. Thread Pirate on you! ARRRRRGH!
Actually, I'm a breast man myself. I haven't been the same since my mother breast-fed me. She ruined my life.
You're really TLBShow, aren't you?
I can safely say that is way more information than I ever needed to know about you, Don.
This thread needs a good highjacking.
But that is my choice, and one I will never regret. But trying to explain my faith to those without faith is not worth the effort and hardly worth the fight. What you see as Fable, I see as Firm Ground. What you see as Fact, I see as the ever changing will of man. And so forth and so on.
Then can I count on no more questions?
And, no more dumb statements from you on Christianity?
Probably not. This thread is undergoing a form of "evolution."
Ok, then. What will be will be.
If you'll shut up about "scientists killing the world"...
And I see you're still a nosy little turd.
then I shall summon the Thread Pirates....
Well, that would be a little hard. That stuff is in the daily news.
One of my fave un-shopped gifs.
Ok, that kid will grow up a wise man.
Baby we could talk all night, but that ain't gettin us nowhere. Write me back when you get that Costa Rican IP address. Maybe my opinion of you will improve. It's got nowhere to go but up.
Then, I'm sorry, all bets are off. :)
then I shall summon the Thread Pirates.... Now why would you want to do that may I ask?
Folks, it is not safe to go back into the water.
No harm. No foul. Whenever the Lamb wants to grill, he has to get starter fluid from Mary. I carry my own butane and matches.
You got nothin to fear, right? Your guy walked on it, IIRC. Or if the storms get frenzied...Peace, be still!
Now, see, beef I can handle rare, but "blood of the Lamb?" No thanks. well done. Besides, if you get washed in it, you can't get it outta yer clothes.
If by that (Thread Pirates) you were reffering to thread hijackers: On behalf of Dakmar, Crack Monkey and myself, we're collectively miffed that our pirating skills haven't been given proper credit here. OTOH, if you intended to type "Butt Pirates" Trace.. See above.
Shall we talk stain removal? .....................................I really gotta go.
like I care. Guys like you are dime a dozen.
Maybe my opinion of you will improve. You'll die of old age before he forms an opinion of his own !
You have the main idea.
Your shark is gonna get made into sharkfin soup. Hope it isn't a pet.
Write me back when you can say it 'en Espanol' and you're yukking it up in tropical climes, watching the coming destruction of the republic from the safety of a beach chair. Rubber, meet road. Otherwise, you're the guy in the "buy one, get 11 free" bin.
Chinga tu ... puto
Mmmmmm, cartilage.
I ain't no pirate, I'm more like the guy lays his head on the railroad tracks hoping for a grand de-railment.
or better yet. Maricon sin verguenza
Maybe we should start a ping list???
What does that mean???
I'll ignore you and you ignore me, otherwise, one or both of us is going to get their asses banned. I was addressing Flint, not you, so how about you just back the fuck way off me and I'll afford you the same courtesy. Otherwise, we got problems. Look at the above disgusting Notice (PM) to me from Sam. Honest, I promise I've never had anything to do with his mom, and I find it difficult to understand the street language being used by such an intellectual. I informed Samuel that if he just said "Uncle" ... I'd quit beating his little pea-brain to a pulp ... so it's up to him.
I already started the "LP Faggot Funnies" ping list for when we want to make fun of Trace and Medved. Check your setup.
That don't even babelfish into anything English. I think Flint is trying to tell us he is a collector of quality kitchen utensils, but it's been a long time since my last visit with Ayahuasca...
No, no.. It's latin for: "The squirrels, they wash my car."
So I have a ping list. How do I ping people with it. Just put the name in the "TO" box? I never use them and don't know how they work.
Should put up a drop list..
In certain South American dialects this roughly translates as: "Penguins Have Big Brown Tires".
In gay-bar sawheilie it translates to: "Hey Trace, there's a guy passed out in the alley!"
You guys wanna make fudge packer jokes about Trace21230?
Works.. Shows up in my pings.. Hey, consider making me and dak co-owners so we can use it also.
In certain South American dialects this roughly translates as: "Penguins Have Big Brown Tires". But in Baltimore and the environs it roughly translates as: "May I take your pet weasel for a walk?".
Hey, consider making me and dak co-owners so we can use it also. OK. I'll do it now.
Bless you my son..
It shold be working for you guys now. You are official co-owners. I'll put Flintlock on too.
Okay, ten seconds have passed.. it's time for the power struggle.. Dak, I think I've put more into his list than you ever have.. As such, my name should be above yours.
Is this like a stock certificate or something, can I peddle my influence on this new list to highest bidder?
I dunno about that.. But, it'd look good on a resume.
I am a subscription member, and as much, I expect quality entertainment from you fellows. ;0)
You can have ten extra points, take it or leave it.
Do you want to be a co-owner? We can arrange for an equity transfer. For a price of course.
Aw, shucks mam' We're too humble to take any kinda credit. You can thank Trace and his posse for yer' entertainments.
Sure - wanna be on my Thread Pirate Ping List??? What Price?????
Take it! But I get all your "Malboro Miles" for 6 weeks.. and options on the remainder of the quarter.
We report, you snicker.
LOL!
You have to compose a Zen Koan that speaks of Trace and his encounter with a Weasel.
Shakespear is good for credit also.. Ya know, something classy.. You know, like it genuinely belongs in great gay literature or shit like that.. Example: "Hark! What dark shadow breaks over left asscheek? It is the weasel!"
A what? You do know that you are speaking to a West Virginia girl here - i ain't very worldly. And I hear that the weasels are forming a union and rre soon to picket Tracey's anus due to it's unfair labor practices and unsafe working conditions. So I am legally unable to mention the weasels....
Or: "Et Tu, Weasel?"
ROFLMAO!
Sonnet of Trace and the Weasels
That's beautiful...
What on earth have I gotten myself into?? LMAO!
We need to go crawling back to Goldi and JimRob, then commence pilfering. I'll bet they both buy that expensive, name brand tissue paper.
You know that's where all the money's going..
Trace the Little Gay By the old Moulmeine pagoda,
A Haiku: by Cappy Born to hide weasels Whither doest thine arse hide, Trace? Home again at last! good enough??? or not descriptive enough?
The literal translation is "Shameless Faggot" Now, if you wanted to be politically correct you could say "Shameless Gay" in which case the initials would be S. G. kind of like the initials of my little neocon buddy. That can't be a coincidence.
Uh-oh. Oh woe is me..........that's almost enough to make me want to clean out my whole bozo filtering system in order to 'feel the love' that seems to be permeating this thread now! Nah! Close is good for horseshoes and grenades.......
AHOY Matey! You rang?
S.G.? As in GIBSON? Just kidding.
Thar's a new poster amoung us Mate - Be afraid!
eh? Who? Do tell......... We gonna get bozo'd again? I hope I know about it this time. It really sucks to get bozo'd and not get anything out of it.
Nah, it doesn't really hurt at all. ;)
Goes by the name of Thread Pirate, but only appears when the mystery bozoer shows up! I started a Thread Pirate Ping list, iffin ye are interested.
I started a Thread Pirate Ping list, iffin ye are interested. Yeah I be interested. I think I know what or who rather, your talking about;)
LOLOL! I love it and the other you got. Signed up for both!
Well, it could................
That is one serious set of "FM" shoes. She can hurt me all night long.
LOL! Haven't heard that phrase in a long time.
LOL! Haven't heard that phrase in a long time. Best when worn behind the ears...
I guess so. Anyway, I've got to go down to the south side to score some smack from the Pusherman and collect the money from my bitches. If 5-0 don't pop me, I'll be back later. Superfly
OK. You can be a co-owner.
Can't handle the historical truth, so you want to put me on bozo. That's sad, really sad, you're nothing but a coward, who's faith is weak. Then again, it should be weak, because to have such a belief in that book is insanity itself.
That's sad, really sad, you're nothing but a coward, who's faith is weak. Then again, it should be weak, because to have such a belief in that book is insanity itself. The mere existence of fools like you tends to create the only doubt that exists in "my faith" in God, and that's what is really sad. Clowns like you deserve the BOZO button only because there isn't an asshole button. Insanity surely is in the eye of the beholder. Given a choice between a history book and the Bible, I'll choose the Bible everytime. History is written by the victor in most cases and is usually shy of facts and heavy on bullshit, just like most of your posts. I haven't determined that you're a history buff, but I have no doubt you're an asshole. "Rowdee, where's that "ASSHOLE" button ?
Yep, I am indeed an asshole, I never stated otherwise. But history is written by the victor, and that is why it takes long and laborious study to learn the true history of the bible, and it's books. I have done that study, I have met the scholars, I have read the history, I have discussed it with hundreds of people, literally, hundreds. I used to ba a Christian, but when I finally opened my mind and decided that conflict is good, I studied, and I discovered that the bible is not at all what you christians claim it is. And once again, how many sects of christianity are there? If it were actually the word of god, how could it be reinterpreted in so many different ways? If it were actually the word of god, wouldn't it only be possible to interpret it the way that god intended?
Exactly. Well put.
Civil discourse is far more pleasant to engage in, than the vitriolic cyber- street fights. I agree that the Bible is not at all what the majority of Christians think it is as well, but possibly for different reasons than you. I felt much like Bible haters feel for years because I didn't get it. There were a number of reasons I opposed the Bible, but it was primarily based upon the hypocrisy of the churches and their leadership. That hasn't changed much. But, the men that make God's word look bad and use it to enslave others was a poor reason for me to discard His Word. On the point of interpretation ... I don't think God intended for everyone to "get it" ... as Jesus clearly explains to the disciples when they asked why He spoke in parables. Another point that I want to make in this response is that some will believe the Word, while others won't. God, if He exists, will work all of that out, and it isn't accurate to say someone is a fool that believes, or a fool who doesn't believe. Time will prove one of the above right and one wrong, but neither need be considered stupid ... yet. (The above "If He Exists" was stated for your benefit ... I know He does.)
yes, there is no reason this topic can't be discussed without the namecalling and insults. there's a lot to be learned for everyone when the conversation is cordial or, at least, mutually respectful.
Ah, but the Bible itself says in Psalm 14 "the fool hath said in his heart "There is no God". Is that not disbelief? And before you counter with "I meant belief in the Word", let me add that in John 1:1 we have "In the beginning, there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the word WAS God." Thus, if you believe in the bible and in God, as you say you do, then it IS accurate to say that someone who isn't a believer is a fool, no?
It's not for me to say a non-believer is a fool. You should be a cop, entrapment is one of their philosophies.
Debate is good, but when you come right out and attack a person's faith, that's really being an asshole! Think about it.
I used your words and scriptures. How is that entrapment?
Why even bother talking to someone who would do that. That person has no control over his emotions and seems to lack the intellect to carry on a conversation.
I think he means that it is not up to him to judge another a fool. Judgement belongs to God.
I probably don't need to point out the difference in what you said in your earlier post "it is not accurate..." and what you said in the next reply "it's not for me to say." I quoted scriptures to refute your assertion that it was innacurate to say that a nonbeliever was not a fool.
That's not what he said. He said "it is not accurate". That at least implies an imperative, or absolute. Scripturally, however, I just cited references saying that the opposite is true. The writer of Psalms, and the writer of John said that the fool says there is no God, AND the Word of God and God himself are one in the same.
Who put you in charge of defining insanity?
How is that entrapment? The Scriptures aren't my words. Some people just read the Word looking for conflicts or some means of proving scripture irrelevant. Others are selected to study, learn, and gain an understanding, their hearts, minds, and souls, being convicted. So much of what does or doesn't happen with regard to scripture has to do with the "intent" and "honesty" of the person's heart that is approaching the subjects contained within God's Word. I would equate it to whether or not one answers the doorbell when it rings. If you look out the peep window and a sweet kid is selling boy scout or girl scout cookies, you happily open the door, have a little conversation with the kid and buy some cookies. However, if you look out the peep hole and see a kid lighting a sack of shit on fire ... you might feel differently about conversing at all. You, Samuel approach everyone like a kid lighting a bag of shit on fire, and probably God's word too.
Imagine if you came from outer space and landed on a planet and the natives gave you as an example of "literature" a book called the Holy Bible, and a book of Grimm's Fairy Tales. After perusing them and their contents, the natives then tell you that, categorically, one of those books is pure myth, while the other one was given to them by an invisible entity they call "God" and is used as the foundation upon which they base their entire lives, and they've devoted thousands of years building temples, churches, sanctuaries and ceremonies, fought wars that have cost millions of lives, etc. Would that seem, based on your outsider's "alien" view, at least a little bit insane?
More vitriol and unsubstantiated allegation. Now I'm burning Bibles, at least metaphorically. I asked you to clarify what I perceived as a apparent contradiction in what you said, and what you apparently believe (the Bible). You have not satisfactorily done so, and have chosen to attack, instead. In your post, your words contradict what the scriptures say. Yet, you are a Christian, supposedly, although your words and actions demonstrably deny this at least to a large extent. Say you were the only example of Christ I was ever to see, how would I discern which words were right? The Scriptures, which say that I am a fool for disbelieving, or yours, which categorically state "it isn't accurate to say that a nonbeliever is a fool."
Hmm it does seem that baiting and taunting has been addressed more than once.. I'd suggest that you and others make a concerted effort to end this .. and really really soon..
Say you were the only example of Christ I was ever to see, how would I discern which words were right? The Scriptures, which say that I am a fool for disbelieving, or yours, which categorically state "it isn't accurate to say that a nonbeliever is a fool." Sam, I see that I can't have a normal discourse with you because I have too much fun exploiting your hatred and self-centeredness. You display masochistic tendancies, seemingly pleasured by the pain of embarrassment inflicted upon you because of your statements made in stupidity. Let the second portion of your last post be an example of unbridled stupidity. First, Christ was to be our example and not the reverse. Second, what difference can it make to someone that doesn't believe what the Book says, whether the Book says they're a fool. You could do the forum a favor by examining your ingorant remarks and editing them until they are free of stupidity. Even if they still contain asinine and ridiculous statements ... at least the board will have a longer intermission between them.
And I'd ask where you find baiting and taunting in 562. Discussion, yes.
Thats it.. done.. my patience is worn thin..
So I will glean from that that you have no response to the contradiction in your initial post. Your "Book" doesn't bind me, and it doesn't make me any difference to me what it says about anything, really. I was pointing out a statement that YOU made that directly contradicts what it says. Since it does, apparently, seem to bind you, you might want to consider a realignment.
"I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said.
#2. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#1)
How ironic that someone whose living is dependent upon pushing a fiction like the bible should react so defensively against another similar work.
#3. To: Aric2000, Samuel Gray (#2)
"You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real," he said.
#4. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#1)
How ironic that someone whose living is dependent upon pushing a fiction like the bible should react so defensively against another similar work.
#5. To: Continental Op (#4)
#6. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#5)
Credible? No. It's no more credible. Better written? Not by a long shot. I'll give you the last point, though. It certainly has loitered for more years than most. But then, I don't think that's the criteria you really want to judge by, is it?
#7. To: All, Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#6)
#8. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#0)
#9. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#0)
Bertone also strongly defended Opus Dei
#10. To: Continental Op (#6)
the Bible is entirely a work of fiction.
#11. To: Continental Op (#7)
edit before posting, should read: as recent archeological finds continue to prove, the Bible is NOT entirely a work of fiction.
#12. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#3)
#13. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut, CAPPSMADNESS (#0)
"I will try to clear things up and help form consciences," the cardinal said.
#14. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#5)
#15. To: Samuel Gray (#12)
I think so. I mean, Da Vinci actually existed, but the guys who venerate the water walkin shepherd born of a virgin are offended because they say someone is making up stuff???
#16. To: Continental Op (#15)
have you read, the Da Vinci Code, The Bible, and down this thread in that order?
#17. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#1)
#18. To: Continental Op (#6)
#19. To: Samuel Gray (#17)
#20. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#19)
f the bible is true, then the Caananites have grounds for one hell of a lawsuit against the jews.
#21. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#18)
As for its quality of prose, to each his own, but it is a far cry from compelling reading. There are other works of antiquity that far surpass it.
#22. To: Samuel Gray (#16)
At least SOME of what Brown wrote was verifiable in the historical record. Find me a large buried boat, or some credible corroborative documentation concerning the life of Jesus written contemporaneously with his existence on earth, and we'll talk.
#23. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#19)
If the bible is true, then the Caananites have grounds for one hell of a lawsuit against the jews.
#24. To: Continental Op (#22)
#25. To: Continental Op (#22)
the archeological evidence in support ofthe Bible is staggering. Read up on it sometime.
#26. To: Continental Op (#23)
And Picts have as much for one against the Celts, and the Celts have as much for one against the Saxons and the Saxons have as much for one against the Normans.. .
#27. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#25)
The same is true of the archeological support for the Book of Mormon.
#28. To: Continental Op (#27)
#29. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#25)
#30. To: Samuel Gray (#24)
Finding a reference to Loch Ness in an ancient document and producing Nessie are entirely different matters entirely.
#31. To: Samuel Gray (#29)
At least with the book of Mormon, you know up front it's bullshit, right?
#32. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#28)
Oh, I see. You'll pick-n-choose which evidence counts based upon which myth you choose to believe. That's typical.
#33. To: Continental Op (#30)
#34. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#31)
It's just as legitimate as the bible and comes with just as much archeological confirmation.
#35. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#31)
#36. To: Samuel Gray (#33)
yet the entire system is based on something that is NOT there in a tomb in Gethsemane??
#37. To: Continental Op (#36)
#38. To: Continental Op (#32)
#39. To: Samuel Gray (#37)
Most 2000 year old tombs are empty, is that it? Just that one is empty due to some other process than natural decay or grave robbery?
#40. To: Continental Op (#34)
that's a fairly absurd statement. compare the evidences.
#41. To: Continental Op (#39)
#42. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#38)
I'm sure you'll dispute it, but then I could just as easily dispute biblical evidences on the exact same grounds, were I so inclined.
#43. To: Samuel Gray (#33)
#44. To: 2Trievers (#43)
#45. To: Samuel Gray (#41)
It's your fairy tale, you tell me.
#46. To: Samuel Gray (#44)
#47. To: 2Trievers (#43)
you might Turin up
#48. To: Continental Op (#46)
I wouldn't stake my life on Gnosticism were I you.
#49. To: Samuel Gray (#47)
Arm yourself and your loved ones from unwanted sin with these handy, portable moist towelettes. A single swipe not only kills sins on contact, but removes unsightly germs as well. The perfect way to cleanse your body and soul while on the go! Each pack comes with six individually foil-wrapped towelettes. 
#50. To: Aric2000 (#2)
How ironic that someone whose living is dependent upon pushing a fiction like the bible should react so defensively against another similar work.
#51. To: Samuel Gray (#41)
...why does the prospect of Jesus having a wife bother the Catholics so much? The Gnostic gospel of Phillip said he kissed her on the mouth many times, and loved her more than the disciples...
#52. To: Continental Op (#42)
Your mind seems unable to grasp the arguement of proportions. Once again, compare the number of archeological finds which support the Bible to the number of archeological finds which support the book of Mormon.
#53. To: 2Trievers (#51)
Because it would confirm the fact that Jesus wasn't divine. And we can't have that type of info floating around.
#54. To: Continental Op (#45)
#55. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#53)
#56. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#53)
No, actually, it wouldn't destroy the claims of divinity.
#57. To: Samuel Gray (#48)
Therein lies the rub, eh? Upon whose teachings shall we stake our lives?
#58. To: 2Trievers (#51)
Because it would confirm the fact that Jesus wasn't divine. And we can't have that type of info floating around.
#59. To: Samuel Gray (#41)
Back on the subject of the thread, why does the prospect of Jesus having a wife bother the Catholics so much?
#60. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#52)
he point, and it is still valid even though you would prefer to dance around it, is that both books are loosely based around actual historical events.
#61. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#52)
They may be useful for archaeoligists seeking information about ancient civilizations, but they are of little use for "establishing how to acquire life after death."
#62. To: Continental Op (#57)
Your personal standards though, mean nothing to anyone else
#63. To: Aric2000 (#54)
#64. To: 2Trievers, All (#51)
Because it would confirm the fact that Jesus wasn't divine. And we can't have that type of info floating around.
#65. To: Samuel Gray (#62)
Millions also believe in Islam and the eastern religions...do they not have a proven "track record?"
#66. To: Don (#64)
Ok, guys, you have been having your fun. Those of us who do accept the Holy Bible as fact have the opposite opinion. We think we are right. You say that we are silly, etc for believing these things. You say that we can't prove that He was divine. But, the truth is you can't prove that He wasn't. So, you have your opinion. So, we have two sides of this dividing line. One side can't prove anything to the other side. You do not believe in His divinity, so be it. We do, so be it.
#67. To: Samuel Gray (#62)
All the Bible thumpers have is eternity falling before some throne saying "Worthy is the Lamb..."
What will my heart feel?
Will I dance for you Jesus?
Or in all of You be still?
Will I stand in Your Presense?BR> Or to my knees will I fall
Will I sing Hallelujah?
Will I be able to speak at all?
I can only imagine....
#68. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#67)
Will I dance for you Jesus?
#69. To: Don, Mekons4 (#64)
#70. To: 2Trievers (#51)
Because it would confirm the fact that Jesus wasn't divine. And we can't have that type of info floating around.
#71. To: Samuel Gray (#68)
Will I dance for you Jesus? Not the Baptists...
#72. To: Samuel Gray (#68)
I play praise music in a band at church
#73. To: Samuel Gray (#69)
When it's loosed on government and inflicted on the rest of us, though, there is a problem.
#74. To: Zipporah, christine, justlurking, rowdee (#70)
Ping to post #70
#75. To: Don (#73)
When disbelief and training people to do whatever they want to do as long as it makes them feel good is inflicted on the rest of us, there is a problem. The seeds of secularism have grown into a completely hedonistic society. It has turned a once great country into just another has-been.
#76. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#72)
#77. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#70)
#78. To: Zipporah, cappsmadness (#77)
#79. To: Samuel Gray (#76)
I don't discuss my unbelief with him at church. I'm sure if I openly said "I don't believe any of this" any longer
#80. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#75)
We will all find out, when our day comes, if we are right or wrong.
#81. To: Don (#79)
#82. To: Samuel Gray (#81)
#83. To: Don (#82)
#84. To: Samuel Gray (#83)
#85. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#74)
#86. To: Samuel Gray (#83)
Nor do I profess, preach, or espouse a belief that I do not hold.
#87. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#0)
#88. To: Samuel Gray (#78)
What about the unbinding of her hair in the presence of a man other than her husband? That was an overtly intimate gesture, and I'm sure, appalling to the other men of her day.
#89. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#0)
#90. To: Zipporah (#86)
Then what you are saying is that what you are doing essentially is being a fraud?
#91. To: Samuel Gray (#83)
I play guitar in the band. That's it.
#92. To: Rothbard (#89)
#93. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#91)
During the Praise and Worship service?
#94. To: Samuel Gray (#90)
Nope. Every note I play is real
#95. To: Samuel Gray (#69)
When it's loosed on government and inflicted on the rest of us, though, there is a problem.
#96. To: Samuel Gray (#93)
#97. To: christine (#95)
(isn't it said we should never discuss politics and religion with friends? ;)
#98. To: Zipporah (#94)
you are mocking God and not being true to the music NOR to yourself
#99. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#96)
#100. To: Zipporah (#77)
In many cultures the gracious expression of welcome is a kiss or kisses. Other cultures welcome people or greet friends with a handshake. The kiss, handshake or hug are all expressions of the warmth and courtesy felt and extended. In the mid-eastern culture of Paul's day they greeted on another with a kiss (see Romans 16:16). The kiss is cultural, the spirit of warmth is to be universal.
#101. To: crack monkey (#100)
#102. To: Samuel Gray (#99)
Working on it. The texts I've read seem to indicate that it was at least frowned upon, if not expressly forbidden for a woman to take her hair down in front of a man who was not her husband.
#103. To: crack monkey (#100)
I've always wondered if this indicated that they didn't wear pants in those days.
#104. To: Zipporah, CAPPSMADNESS, Samuel Gray (#94)
#105. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#103)
Well, if you look at all the pictures, they wore dresses.
#106. To: crack monkey (#100)
#107. To: SKYDRIFTER (#106)
I don't think they had shielded public urinals in those days.
#108. To: christine (#95)
(isn't it said we should never discuss politics and religion with friends? ;)
#109. To: Samuel Gray (#99)
Working on it.
#110. To: Samuel Gray (#92)
#111. To: christine (#104)
#112. To: SKYDRIFTER (#110)
#113. To: christine (#104)
but I don't understand why SG's playing an instrument in the church band is mocking anyone or anything
#114. To: Zipporah, Samuel Gray (#111)
In every church I have ever attended one criteria for participating in the worship service~ a declaration of faith. .. leading, preaching, the music ministry .. And declare that either to the pastor or/and the congregation. Participating in the music ministry is for the sole purpose of praise and worship.
#115. To: Zipporah (#111)
#116. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#114)
#117. To: Samuel Gray (#115)
#118. To: Samuel Gray (#116)
Why then, can I not play religious music without being religious?
#119. To: Samuel Gray (#116)
.all for amusement, education, etc.
#120. To: 1776 (#108)
Never discuss religion, politics, or anything else.
#121. To: 2Trievers (#55)
Heh. Are you saying "the winners write history?"
#122. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#114)
#123. To: Continental Op (#60)
so we have progressed thus far that you admit the Bible is not entirely a work of fiction?
#124. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#121)
Not only that, they winners wrote the bible and excised the parts that refuted their particular cult.
#125. To: noone222 (#61)
Personally I think life after death is already a done deal. The only thing left to determine is the Zip Code. [7777777 or 666666]
#126. To: Samuel Gray (#33)
Thomas was on the right track. Lest I see the nail prints and thrust my hand into his side...
#127. To: christine, 1776 (#120)
#128. To: Don (#64)
You say that we can't prove that He was divine. But, the truth is you can't prove that He wasn't.
#129. To: Samuel Gray (#69)
I believe critical examination of anything is crucial to understanding it. As Mekons alluded to earlier, when I began that critical examination of my faith, as early as seven years old, it evaporated into smoke and departed. I've never found it since, although, I confess having not looked very hard for it.
#130. To: Rothbard (#89)
Can anyone give me a brief 1 paragraph synopsis of this book. Whats its point? I really dont want to read this book, as its very large, and quite frankly I have enough really thick books on my shelf that need reading.... I dont need another one..... but I'm still curious what its all about.
#131. To: Aric2000 (#124)
Oh yeah, they tore it into itsy bitsy pieces, the winner writes history, and that is exactly the way it was with the bible, and especially the new testament.
#132. To: Aric2000 (#122)
Thor is gonna get ya yet, or perhaps Diana, or perhaps Zeus will get you yet, perhaps the earth Goddess will claim you for her own, or perhaps the elephant god will claim you, or perhaps the Sun god Ur will get you yet as well.
#133. To: Zipporah, christine (#127)
Dance the tango? ;P
#134. To: rowdee (#126)
Why quote Thomas?
#135. To: Zipporah (#94)
#136. To: Aric2000 (#122)
Bible the word of God, yeah, right, more like the words of uneducated sheep herders in the case of Genesis, and then some historical fantasies with some modicum of fact attached to them, and then the New Testament made up out of whole cloth by 3rd and 4th hand people that never even met jesus, let alone wrote truly about him.
#137. To: noone222 (#134)
#138. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#125)
but don't make the mistake of thinking there is even one tiny little shred of evidence to support the notion.
#139. To: rowdee (#137)
I pray daily that my faith be strengthened to where I can have no doubt.
#140. To: rowdee (#136)
Moses was raised by the daughter of the Pharoah as a son of Pharoah. I suspect he would have been well educated. How about you?
#141. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#123)
Uhm, if you'd been paying attention, you would have noticed that I quite clearly stated that I believe the bible is wrapped around general historical events in history and that it is the supernatural claims and the dictatorial commandments about who/how man should worship that are ridiculously absurd.
#142. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#131)
If one is going to be an honest christian, then one certainly must treat the gnostic gospels as important as the bible itself.
#143. To: Continental Op (#142)
The Bible has endured. how do you account for that?
#144. To: rowdee (#135)
#145. To: Samuel Gray (#143)
The point of a sword, and mass market advertising?
#146. To: Continental Op (#145)
#147. To: Samuel Gray (#146)
Read Adams or Jefferson sometimes, concerning Christianity. Jefferson wrote his OWN bible, deleting the miraculous references, and keeping the teachings of Jesus.
#148. To: Continental Op (#147)
#149. To: Samuel Gray (#148)
#150. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut, All (#128)
the burden of proof is squarely upon the one making the affirmation of existence.
#151. To: Don (#150)
Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not.
#152. To: Continental Op (#145)
... it's teachings were perverted by the Catholics ...
#153. To: Samuel Gray (#148)
#154. To: Don (#150)
Counselor, this isn't a court of law. It's your decision to believe or not.
#155. To: Samuel Gray (#154)
And that brings us back to "My God can beat up your facts". Sigh.
#156. To: Samuel Gray (#154)
#157. To: Samuel Gray (#154)
And that brings us back to "My God can beat up your facts". Sigh.
#158. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#151)
#159. To: All (#157)
#160. To: Don (#158)
At least, the lions haven't been released yet.
#161. To: rowdee (#136)
The book is generally attributed by all theological scholars of various denominations to have been Moses.
#162. To: crack monkey (#152)
Is it accurate to say that it was perverted by the Catholics? I have seen Bibles dating from 800 AD. There is one on display in Cork Ireland that dates from this period.
#163. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#160)
each tends to blame the other for today's/yesterday's woes (Science Community/Christian Community).
#164. To: Don (#158)
#165. To: Aric2000 (#164)
you guys eat each other.....
#166. To: Don (#163)
Belittlement for believing in Christ is something which people should respond to. Christians are not second-class citizens for believing in Christ, nor are they dumb, illogical, or uneducated. And, that is something that the people who "know better" can't seem to understand.
#167. To: Aric2000 (#166)
#168. To: Don (#165)
In your dreams, Bud. In your dreams.
#169. To: Aric2000 (#166)
#170. To: Aric2000 (#168)
#171. To: Don (#167)
#172. To: Samuel Gray (#169)
What about the 400 species of hummingbirds? Did he take some of each, Or did we have "fast forward" evolution from just the original two?
#173. To: noone222 (#172)
He took 7 of the clean beasts and only 2 of the unclean ...
#174. To: Don, All (#163)
Belittlement for believing in Christ is something which people should respond to. Christians are not second-class citizens for believing in Christ, nor are they dumb, illogical, or uneducated. And, that is something that the people who "know better" can't seem to understand.
#175. To: Samuel Gray (#173)
I'm going to stack and burn all my science books right now.
#176. To: noone222 (#174)
"championing" a (sub) human species that has been a blight upon humanity from its inception.
#177. To: noone222 (#175)
#178. To: Samuel Gray (#176)
You wanna spell that one out?
#179. To: noone222 (#172)
He took 7 of the clean beasts and only 2 of the unclean ...
#180. To: Samuel Gray (#177)
I strongly suspect your brand of picture books are the kind you hold up w/ one hand while "stroking your ego" with the other.
#181. To: noone222 (#174)
God and His Word, while "championing" a (sub) human species that has been a blight upon humanity from its inception.
#182. To: noone222 (#178)
#183. To: crack monkey (#179)
Did Noah collect two of each of these or are these not considered to be living things?
#184. To: noone222 (#178)
#185. To: Samuel Gray (#182)
#186. To: noone222 (#180)
I'm more inclined (and so are "many others" on this forum)
#187. To: crack monkey, noone222 (#181)
Are you saying the Jesus wants us to hate and kill the Jews? Don't beat around the bush on this one.
#188. To: noone222 (#183)
I'm not convinced that the "flood" was universal ... it may have been restricted to a particular area that was the "known" world ...
#189. To: Samuel Gray (#184)
You bloody coward. Can't even say it straight out? You gutless, nutless hate filled sack of pus.
#190. To: noone222 (#189)
the girls will be forced to throw you out
#191. To: Samuel Gray (#187)
Are you saying the Jesus wants us to hate and kill the Jews? Don't beat around the bush on this one.
#192. To: noone222 (#191)
#193. To: Samuel Gray (#192)
#194. To: noone222 (#191)
#195. To: Samuel Gray (#194)
I was quoting crackmonkey's question to you, dimbulb,
#196. To: noone222 (#195)
#197. To: all (#192)
#198. To: Samuel Gray (#196)
You answered his question in #181
#199. To: Jhoffa_ (#197)
Can't we all just get high or something?
#200. To: Jhoffa_ (#197)
Can't we all just get high or something?
#201. To: noone222 (#199)
#202. To: Samuel Gray (#200)
Maybe, but noone222's drug of choice is
#203. To: noone222 (#198)
I hate repeating myself.
#204. To: Samuel Gray (#203)
you're just too impotent to act on it.
#205. To: noone222 (#202)
noone222's drug of choice is Yashua Messiah.
#206. To: CAPPSMADNESS, Don (#151)
Please count me in the group that ain't sorry Christianity is here to stay.
#207. To: Samuel Gray (#205)
your boss is a Jewish carpenter?
#208. To: Samuel Gray (#205)
#209. To: Aric2000 (#161)
#210. To: Aric2000 (#208)
Actually his boss is Jewish royalty, but let's not go there, because then the Christians will get really upset, they worship a Jewish King...
#211. To: Jhoffa_ (#201)
"towlie" hacked my account..
#212. To: noone222 (#211)
#213. To: Continental Op (#162)
#214. To: Jhoffa_ (#212)
#215. To: Dakmar (#214)
#216. To: Jhoffa_ (#215)
#217. To: Dakmar (#216)
#218. To: rowdee (#206)
Please count me in the group that ain't sorry Christianity is here to stay.
#219. To: Aric2000 (#168)
#220. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#218)
#221. To: Aric2000 (#208)
Actually his boss is Jewish royalty, but let's not go there, because then the Christians will get really upset, they worship a Jewish King...LOL
#222. To: Jhoffa_ (#212)
It's a pot smoking, burnt out, "party" towel from "South Park"
#223. To: Jhoffa_ (#220)
I like my Jews breaded & fried, with Sweet/Sour sauce and some red wine. (Christians are better with marinara.)
#224. To: crack monkey (#188)
Some think this is the flooding of the black sea and others think it was a meteor strike or volcanic erruption.
#225. To: noone222 (#183)
#226. To: noone222 (#224)
Sometimes it's a blessing to NOT KNOW EVERYTHING
#227. To: rowdee (#225)
#228. To: rowdee (#225)
God, to be God, can do anything he wants---when he wants--and how he wants. His ways are not our ways. People, especially in todays' age, want instant gratification....they want what they want when they want it.
#229. To: Aric2000 (#208)
#230. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#218)
#231. To: rowdee (#225)
I saw where someone commented
#232. To: rowdee (#229)
#233. To: Jhoffa_ (#227)
#234. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#228)
Science says "impossible" while Faith says "All things are possible".
#235. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#228)
And such is the basis of true faith. And the reason these squabbles take place. Science says "impossible" while Faith says "All things are possible".
#236. To: Jhoffa_ (#227)
Let's be frank.. If you have an problem with dead people coming back to life, then you may as well just put the book down and go find something else to do.
#237. To: noone222 (#231)
#238. To: noone222 (#236)
If Jesus didn't rise from the dead he was a lying lunatic
#239. To: rowdee (#235)
One of his names is the God of impossibilities.
#240. To: rowdee (#237)
#241. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#238)
I don't think even lying lunatics can have others witness their deaths, be entombed, and then hide their own bodies after they have risen from the dead.
#242. To: noone222 (#241)
I wasn't saying that I don't believe He is Arisen
#243. To: noone222 (#241)
And the amount of hatred for Christ that is commonly demonstrated by Jewish attacks upon Nativity Scenes, Crosses or references to God in school certainly make me wonder what makes them continue to crucify him 2000 years later.
#244. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#243)
To be fair, it isn't only Jews who react strongly to Nativity scenes, etc..
#245. To: noone222 (#244)
#246. To: noone222 (#244)
#247. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#245)
In Cincinnati, The KKK fights for a permit to put up a cross downtown. I don't know if it's right or wrong - but it is normally unanimously opposed by everyone because of the Klan's association with cross burning, etc.
#248. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#246)
Also, I am no expert on the Talmud, as it is not a book I have aspired to read yet. I have an arsenal of unread books already. Isn't the Talmudic faith a form of Jewish mystisism? (please excuse spelling errors).
#249. To: noone222 (#240)
#250. To: noone222 (#248)
talmud en masse
#251. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#239)
#252. To: Samuel Gray (#251)
What about the "God of Rigged Games?
#253. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#252)
#254. To: noone222 (#240)
He's God and He don't have to play fair.
#255. To: Jhoffa_ (#253)
#256. To: Samuel Gray (#255)
#257. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#256)
#258. To: Samuel Gray (#255)
#259. To: All (#258)
#260. To: Samuel Gray (#257)
#261. To: Samuel Gray (#257)
#262. To: Jhoffa_ (#258)
#263. To: Samuel Gray, noone222 (#254)
Then the game is rigged, and all bets are off. He doesn't play fair, there's no reason for me to either.
He can crush you or cut you open at any time, but is simply toying with your sorry ass until He can punish you BUT GOOD! Do as His earthly sevants command you, dig, or it's gonna be like the big owee forever.
#264. To: Dakmar (#263)
#265. To: Jhoffa_ (#264)
#266. To: Dakmar (#265)
#267. To: All (#263)
sevants
#268. To: Jhoffa_ (#266)
#269. To: Dakmar (#268)
#270. To: Samuel Gray (#254)
He can go his own way, I go mine.
#271. To: noone222 (#270)
#272. To: noone222 (#270)
#273. To: noone222 (#270)
#274. To: Jhoffa_ (#210)
#275. To: Aric2000 (#274)
No, but they worship a man that is a direct descendant of that same king, and if Israel had existed as a country, he would have been that countries rightful king.
#276. To: Dakmar (#263)
I'm a stone atheist, but I have respect for some religios people and despise others. I despise some atheists too, jerks that call police when I sing Frosty Snowman too loud at night.
#277. To: Jhoffa_ (#272)
#278. To: Jhoffa_ (#259)
For example: If I had a post without a single typo, it would be considered a "Miracle"
#279. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#277)
#280. To: rowdee (#278)
#281. To: Elliott Jackalope (#276)
What we call religion is the social construct and structures that get erected around the original revelation of whichever prophet you want to name, from Elijah to Jesus to Buddha to Mohammed to Krishna to Bahá'u'lláh. So what are these revelations that I'm referring to, that have the power to change the destiny of nations?
#282. To: rowdee (#278)
That, my dear, would be MY MIRACLE, too.
#283. To: noone222, Jhoffa_, InjunJoe (#282)
#284. To: Dakmar (#283)
#285. To: Jhoffa_ (#284)
#286. To: crack monkey (#285)
#287. To: Jhoffa_ (#284)
And sell that stupid car, it's evil..
#288. To: noone222 (#282)
A thread without an "asteroid orifice" would seem miraculous to me !
#289. To: Jhoffa_ (#286)
#290. To: Dakmar (#287)
#291. To: crack monkey (#289)
Could Bush worship be considered a cult?
#292. To: crack monkey (#289)
The nexus between botdom and serious pole smoking.
#293. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#288)
What exactly is an "asteroid Orifice"? Do I dare ask?
#294. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#292)
#295. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#288)
What exactly is an "asteroid Orifice"? Do I dare ask?
#296. To: noone222, rowdee (#295)
What exactly is an "asteroid Orifice"? Do I dare ask?
#297. To: crack monkey (#293)
#298. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#297)
It impacted with the planet long ago and wiped out several key species. Homo Erectus among others.
#299. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#70)
But a kiss in those times did not necessarily have the same sexual connotations as it does today.
#300. To: Elliott Jackalope (#276)
#301. To: noone222 (#282)
#302. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#288)
#303. To: justlurking (#299)
#304. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#296)
check answer is in the mail.
#305. To: justlurking (#299)
Obviously something in that book has got the Vatican in a tizzy. I just happen to think it's more than Jesus being married.
#306. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#303)
Maybe the Vatican will be persuaded to release the rest of the books in time with enough uproar.
#307. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#296)
#308. To: justlurking (#299)
#309. To: christine (#302)
kelly, lol, do a visual in your mind.
#310. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#309)
#311. To: rowdee (#308)
#312. To: justlurking (#311)
#313. To: christine (#310)
CVA = Cerebral Vascular Accident = a STROKE
#314. To: justlurking (#311)
#315. To: crack monkey (#312)
The Catholic Church used to have a list of interdicted books. Catcher in the Rye was on it. I don't know if they still have it or not.
#316. To: justlurking (#299)
I just happen to think it's more than Jesus being married.
#317. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#313)
#318. To: noone222 (#316)
How's That ?
#319. To: noone222 (#316)
There are pictures in the Middle of the Book, Glossies of Pope Pius in Drag, drinking freshly made wine with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, singing for the Wedding Feast at Cana ... "What a friend we have in Jesus"
#320. To: justlurking (#311)
This crap is exactly why I am no longer a practicing Catholic.
#321. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#0)
"I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said.
#322. To: noone222 (#320)
That's why they let everyone eat meat on Friday now ... fucked up my mind when I was 13 years old eating hamburgers every Friday afternoon thinking ... shit, I'm going to hell for this, ... all through grade school ... peanut butter and jelly sandwiches, dry salmon (yuk), tuna fish, any other religion was looking good to me.
#323. To: justlurking (#318)
#324. To: Samuel Gray (#323)
but also because they don't come off in a good light when it comes to manipulating what books went in the Bible and what was omitted.
#325. To: Dakmar (#319)
Post it here man, put up or shut up.
#326. To: Jhoffa_ (#321)
How will you explain complex things like Christianity, if they can barely dress themselves and fear daily of the chaotic and murderous "Ragheads" running loose in their midst?
#327. To: Everyone except Don (#326)
How do you explain me?
#328. To: Don (#326)
#329. To: Jhoffa_ (#279)
#330. To: Dakmar (#327)
#331. To: Samuel Gray (#329)
Damning me with faint praise, eh?
#332. To: Jhoffa_ (#331)
#333. To: Samuel Gray (#332)
#334. To: noone222 (#320)
#335. To: Jhoffa_ (#328)
How will you explain complex things like Christianity, if they can barely dress themselves and fear daily of the chaotic and murderous "Ragheads" running loose in their midst?
#336. To: Don (#335)
#337. To: Jhoffa_ (#336)
#338. To: noone222 (#138)
My sister had a near death experience, which she detailed for me. I don't say this is proof of anything ... but it's a little shred of evidence !
#339. To: Continental Op (#141)
You stated that the Bible was a "work of fiction."
#340. To: Continental Op (#142)
why? they died out, under persocution. The Bible didn't. The Bible has endured. how do you account for that?
#341. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#340)
So... Are you saying that if one religion can wipe out another and destroy all of the writings of the other, that automatically makes the murderous one the truth?
#342. To: Don (#150)
Counselor, this isn't a court of law. It's your decision to believe or not.
In the meantime, we have the First Amendment in this country. Freedom of Religion and all that? I can start a religion worshipping my right, big toe and I don't have to prove a thing.
I've in no way indicated that you should be prevented from worshiping as you please - provided you violate the rights of no person in the process. Have at it. Believe what you will. Christianity and belief in Christ is much more established than my pretend church. Prove something? Yeah, right. In your dreams. Christianity is here and it will stay here. Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not.
Lots of religions are here. Some are more populous than christianity. But, popularity is not proof. And, if the cardinal wishes to make accusations against the written works of other, he best look in the mirror first, else he stands to be laughed at for the fool that he makes himself.
#343. To: Jhoffa_ (#321)
These same people think Saddam had nukes..
#344. To: rowdee (#334)
Catholics don't believe in divorce.
#345. To: noone222, Jhoffa_ (#344)
Jesus was no bullshit artist
#346. To: rowdee (#229)
You most certainly have the right to believe you evolved from monkeys.
#347. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#338)
My sister had a near death experience, which she detailed for me. I don't say this is proof of anything ... but it's a little shred of evidence !
#348. To: Jhoffa_ (#275)
#349. To: Aric2000 (#348)
After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, “Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world.” 15Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.
#350. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#342)
#351. To: Aric2000 (#348)
Jesus was that man, he was rightful heir to the throne of David, but he FAILED, and failed miserably, therefore, the Jews do not and cannot accept him as the Messiah.
#352. To: Don (#350)
How do you prove the existence of God?
#353. To: Jhoffa_ (#351)
it just goes on and on my friends!
Somebody started posting it
not knowing what it was!
Now we'll continue posting it
Foreverjust because......
#354. To: Don (#350)
Thank you for your courtesy. I appreciate you allowing me to do that. I would also appreciate it if you don't violate any rights that Christians might have such as being allowed to obey what they think is the will of God in certain matters such as preaching the gospel.
#355. To: Aric2000, rowdee (#346)
When you learn what evolution ACTUALLY is and what it says, we'll talk, until then, you are just a superstitious ignorant savage as far as I am concerned.
#356. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#354)
#357. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#352)
How do you prove the existence of God? It would be a simple exercise -
#358. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#357)
Then please do so sir, I (among others) would like to see said proof.
#359. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#352)
#360. To: Don (#356)
The property is the world. That is how it goes. You just aren't safe anywhere.
#361. To: Don (#355)
superstitious ignorant savages
#362. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#358)
so I am not the one in a position to be challenged to prove his existence
#363. To: Don (#359)
A much better example of a fallacy of logic is to deny what is in front of your face. You qualify for that award much better than I.
#364. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#358)
#365. To: Don (#362)
You are much more challenged in denying it.
#366. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#364)
But you were the one who said it would be a simple exercise, right?
#367. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#363)
In front of my face? No, there's no god there. Just a computer.
#368. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#366)
#369. To: Don (#367)
Then, you are very blind indeed.
#370. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#366)
That's why believers have never been able to produce him.
#371. To: All (#368)
#372. To: Aric2000 (#346)
#373. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#369)
Why? Because they just aren't there.
#374. To: Don (#368)
You want God to prove His existence to you say...in a courtroom? Or, maybe in your living room would be a better place for your immediate comfort? God is all around you and you can't see him because you believe He is there. I point out the heavens and everything here on earth as created things from a source, and you blow right past it. You don't want to face that issue. It might cause you to think, and in time it might even cause you to doubt your doubt. We couldn't have that, could we?
#375. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#374)
But hey, if that's all you've got...
#376. To: Don (#368)
#377. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#370)
Truce???
#378. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#361)
#379. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#376)
Let's just call it a night? okay?
#380. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#366)
#381. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#377)
You'll do that on your own when you are ready
#382. To: Aric2000 (#346)
#383. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#370)
And science has never been able to discount Him.
#384. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#361)
THUMPTHUMPTHUMPTHUMPTHUMP!
#385. To: rowdee (#382)
#386. To: rowdee (#384)
or was it the Easter Bunny our friend was lamenting early on in this thread?
#387. To: Dakmar (#265)
#388. To: crack monkey, Jhoffa_, FormerLurker (#289)
They're pretty much all cornholers over there too - Trace, BAC and numerous other funny types.
#389. To: Jhoffa_ (#349)
#390. To: Aric2000 (#385)
BTW, the raising of Lazarus, was a mystical exercise, Lazarus was Never really dead, he died of his old life, and was reborn again. Interesting that, huh?
#391. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#374)
#392. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#0)
The novel is going to reach an even wider audience next year with the release of a film based on the book staring Tom Hanks.
#393. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#340)
So... Are you saying that if one religion can wipe out another and destroy all of the writings of the other, that automatically makes the murderous one the truth?
#394. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#339)
And it is. Those of us who read books realize that writers often wrap their fiction around actual historical events. That doesn't magically turn their stories into truth.
#395. To: Continental Op, all (#394)
You can't prove that is.. .I can't prove to you that it isn't...
#396. To: RickyJ (#392)
I'm not surprised Tom Hanks would be in a movie like this. I sincerely hope this movie flops.
#397. To: wbales (#395)
But I do have this question for the more theologically inclined here: Do dogs go to heaven? Do living being other than humans go to heaven?
#398. To: Continental Op (#397)
Got A Bible?
#399. To: 2Trievers (#391)
Nothing that will ever naturally pass through your mind will ever reveal to you, “the truth” about things; only the things themselves can do that -- and they do so -- relentlessly! Life is revealing to you, "the Truth" at every moment, by letting you witness what actually -- happens.
#400. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#366)
IF SUCH A THING AS A god EXISTED. It is a simple matter to prove existence of things that exist. Something as significant as a god would be the easiest of all -- if it existed.
#401. To: wbales (#398)
#402. To: wbales (#398)
#403. To: Aric2000 (#383)
Bit of a quandry there, but neither can disprove the other, and will NEVER be able to.
#404. To: Continental Op (#402)
start at page #1 right through to the end. You'll probably find what your looking for if you ignore conventional Christian beliefs and focus on what it really says.
#405. To: Samuel Gray (#404)
You can try it with the Grimm's Fairy Tales too. Works about the same. Morality plays with a supernatural twist.
#406. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#376)
Don, lets just call a truce - or this thread will never die.
#407. To: noone222 (#390)
#408. To: Diana (#387)
#409. To: Aric2000 (#407)
this is NOT a skull and bones mystical satanic exercise.
#410. To: noone222 (#403)
#411. To: Aric2000 (#410)
The rapture as some Christians call it is NOT going to happen
#412. To: noone222, Continental Op, Don, All (#399)
#413. To: Flintlock (#411)
#414. To: 2Trievers (#413)
#415. To: Samuel Gray (#414)
#416. To: 2Trievers (#415)
Your problem is that you have a good heart and you care too much. Looking for an ambassadorship to Somali?
#417. To: Samuel Gray (#416)
#418. To: Aric2000, Rowdee (#407)
Sorry, wrong on ALL counts, this is NOT a skull and bones mystical satanic exercise.
#419. To: 2Trievers (#413)
#420. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#412)
#421. To: Don (#420)
#422. To: noone222 (#406)
#423. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#421)
#424. To: 2Trievers (#417)
sex and stimulation
#425. To: noone222 (#418)
Where is that Bozo Button Rowdee ???
#426. To: Samuel Gray (#425)
*sigh* You understand the Four S's
#427. To: noone222 (#426)
#428. To: Samuel Gray (#424)
Wait..that's really just three. Unless you meant MENTAL stimulation.
#429. To: Samuel Gray (#414)
I'm the freakin anti-Christ
#430. To: Samuel Gray (#427)
#431. To: 2Trievers (#428)
you can see where this is leading, can't you?
#432. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#429)
#433. To: Samuel Gray (#431)
#434. To: 2Trievers (#433)
#435. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#429)
Samuel Gray (said):
#436. To: noone222 (#435)
#437. To: Samuel Gray (#434)
#438. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#429)
Dang! I just lost the bettig pool!
#439. To: 2Trievers (#430)
#440. To: Flintlock (#438)
#441. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut, All (#0)
Can the blasphemous bestseller help you see the mystical world anew, or is it just another doorstop?
#442. To: 2Trievers (#437)
No body understands us anyway
#443. To: Samuel Gray, 2Trievers (#442)
#444. To: 2Trievers (#441)
allowing yourself to be trapped by the narrow mythology set forth in one, say, pseudo holy book's version of life, of flesh, of truth.
#445. To: Samuel Gray (#440)
Still leading with your charm , eh, Flint?
#446. To: Don (#439)
#447. To: Samuel Gray, 2Trievers (#444)
#448. To: 2Trievers (#446)
#449. To: noone222, Samuel Gray (#435)
Samuel Gray (said): I'm the freakin anti-Christ
#450. To: Flintlock (#445)
#451. To: Samuel Gray (#432)
Besides, I'm thin on top and that 666 birthmark thing would be a bit overt and tend to scare the Fundies.
#452. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#451)
#453. To: Samuel Gray (#450)
Still good at avoiding the pointed questions, aren't ya?
#454. To: Don (#447)
#455. To: Samuel Gray (#434)
agree, I was referring to the weird practice of bozoing folks that "talk dirty".
#456. To: 2Trievers (#454)
#457. To: noone222 (#453)
#458. To: Don (#456)
#459. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#455)
#460. To: 2Trievers (#444)
allowing yourself to be trapped by the narrow mythology set forth in one, say, pseudo holy book's version of life, of flesh, of truth.
#461. To: Samuel Gray (#458)
#462. To: All (#461)
#463. To: Don (#461)
Then can I count on no more questions?
#464. To: Samuel Gray (#463)
#465. To: Don (#462)
And, no more dumb statements from you on Christianity?
#466. To: Samuel Gray (#450)
Still good at avoiding the pointed questions, aren't ya?
#467. To: Samuel Gray, justlurking, Thread Pirate (#459)
This thread needs a good highjacking.
#468. To: Samuel Gray (#465)
#469. To: Don (#456)
#470. To: 2Trievers (#469)
#471. To: Flintlock (#466)
#472. To: Don (#468)
Well, that would be a little hard. That stuff is in the daily news.
#473. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#467)
This thread needs a good highjacking.
#474. To: Samuel Gray, All (#472)
#475. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#460)
#476. To: Don (#474)
Folks, it is not safe to go back into the water.
#477. To: 2Trievers (#475)
Whenever the Lamb wants to grill,
#478. To: CAPPSMADNESS, Dakmar, Crack Monkey, Tracie21230 (#467)
#479. To: Samuel Gray (#477)
#480. To: Don (#474)
Folks, it is not safe to go back into the water.
#481. To: Samuel Gray (#471)
Maybe my opinion of you will improve.
#482. To: Flintlock (#481)
Samuel Gray
#483. To: Samuel Gray (#476)
#484. To: 2Trievers (#480)
#485. To: Flintlock (#481)
Guys like you are dime a dozen.
#486. To: Samuel Gray (#485)
Write me back when you can say it 'en Espanol'
#487. To: Don (#484)
Your shark is gonna get made into sharkfin soup. Hope it isn't a pet.
#488. To: Jhoffa_ (#478)
On behalf of Dakmar, Crack Monkey and myself, we're collectively miffed that our pirating skills haven't been given proper credit here
#489. To: noone222 (#486)
Chinga tu ... puto
#490. To: Jhoffa_ (#478)
On behalf of Dakmar, Crack Monkey and myself, we're collectively miffed that our pirating skills haven't been given proper credit here
#491. To: Flintlock (#489)
Maricon sin verguenza
#492. To: Flintlock (#489)
Look, motherfucker, I get about 3 PMs a day telling me to lay off your worthless ass. We're going to have to coexist here or one of us is going, and it ain't me.
#493. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#490)
Maybe we should start a ping list???
#494. To: CAPPSMADNESS, Flintlock (#491)
Maricon sin verguenza
#495. To: Dakmar (#494)
#496. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#490)
Maybe we should start a ping list???
#497. To: crack monkey (#496)
So I have a ping list. How do I ping people with it.
#498. To: Dakmar (#494)
Maricon sin verguenza
#499. To: crack monkey (#498)
#500. To: All, *LP Fag Funnies* (#499)
#501. To: crack monkey (#500)
#502. To: All (#500)
Maricon sin verguenza
#503. To: Jhoffa_ (#501)
Shows up in my pings..
#504. To: crack monkey (#503)
#505. To: Jhoffa_, Dakmar, Flintlock (#504)
#506. To: crack monkey, *LP Fag Funnies* (#505)
#507. To: Jhoffa_, crack monkey, Tom Bishop, Zipporah (#501)
#508. To: Dakmar (#507)
#509. To: Jhoffa_ (#506)
#510. To: Jhoffa_ (#506)
#511. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#509)
#512. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#509)
#513. To: crack monkey (#511)
For a price of course.
#514. To: Dakmar (#510)
#515. To: Jhoffa_ (#512)
You can thank Trace and his posse for yer' entertainments.
#516. To: crack monkey (#515)
#517. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#513)
#518. To: CappsMadness (#517)
#519. To: crack monkey (#517)
You have to compose a Zen Koan
#520. To: All (#518)
#521. To: Jhoffa_ (#518)
"Hark! What dark shadow breaks over left asscheek? It is the weasel!"
#522. To: Jhoffa_ (#518)
An example
Thy weasels he loves,
And they, as pitying him,,
Knowing the weasel's hearts torment him with disdain,
Have put on Brown and loving morners be,,
Looking with pretty Ruth upon his posterior's pain,,
And surly not the morning son of heaven,,
Better becomes Trace's two cheeks,,
Nor that first full star of even, ,
Doth half that glory to his sober bung, ,
As those Brown weasels doth to his posterior,,
Oh let us then swear that beauty herself is brown,,
And all that is brown Trace's complection lacks.
#523. To: crack monkey (#522)
#524. To: crack monkey (#522)
#525. To: Jhoffa_ (#514)
#526. To: Dakmar (#525)
#527. To: Jhoffa_ (#523)
Look lazy on it's face,
There's a shitty weasel sitting,
And I know it thinks of Trace,
And the wind is in the palm trees,
And the temple bells they say,
Come ye back you little faggot,
Come ye back you little gay.
#528. To: crack monkey (#522)
#529. To: CAPPSMADNESS, Dakmar, Crack Monkey (#491)
What does that mean???
#530. To: noone222 (#492)
#531. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#467)
This thread needs a good highjacking. then I shall summon the Thread Pirates....
#532. To: Flintlock (#529)
#533. To: justlurking (#531)
AHOY Matey! You rang?
#534. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#533)
Thar's a new poster amoung us Mate - Be afraid!
#535. To: justlurking (#534)
#536. To: justlurking (#534)
eh? Who? Do tell
#537. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#536)
Goes by the name of Thread Pirate, but only appears when the mystery bozoer shows up!
#538. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#536)
I started a Thread Pirate Ping list, iffin ye are interested.
#539. To: Samuel Gray (#535)
Nah, it doesn't really hurt at all. ;)
#540. To: justlurking (#539)
#541. To: Samuel Gray (#540)
"FM" shoes
#542. To: justlurking (#541)
FM" shoes
#543. To: Dakmar (#532)
As in GIBSON?
#544. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#528)
Born to hide weasels
#545. To: noone222 (#418)
#546. To: Aric2000 (#545)
Can't handle the historical truth, so you want to put me on bozo.
#547. To: noone222 (#546)
#548. To: Aric2000 (#547)
If it were actually the word of god, how could it be reinterpreted in so many different ways? If it were actually the word of god, wouldn't it only be possible to interpret it the way that god intended?
#549. To: Aric2000 (#547)
I used to ba a Christian, but when I finally opened my mind and decided that conflict is good, I studied, and I discovered that the bible is not at all what you christians claim it is.
#550. To: noone222, Aric2000, Samuel Gray (#549)
Civil discourse is far more pleasant to engage in, than the vitriolic cyber- street fights.
#551. To: noone222 (#549)
Another point that I want to make...is...it isn't accurate to say someone is a fool that believes, or a fool who doesn't believe.
#552. To: Samuel Gray (#551)
Thus, if you believe in the bible and in God, as you say you do, then it IS accurate to say that someone who isn't a believer is a fool, no?
#553. To: Aric2000, All (#545)
#554. To: noone222 (#552)
#555. To: SKYDRIFTER (#553)
when you come right out and attack a person's faith, that's really being an asshole!
#556. To: Samuel Gray (#554)
I used your words and scriptures. How is that entrapment?
#557. To: noone222 (#552)
#558. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#556)
#559. To: Aric2000 (#545)
because to have such a belief in that book is insanity itself.
#560. To: Samuel Gray (#554)
I used your words and scriptures.
#561. To: wbales (#559)
#562. To: noone222 (#560)
#563. To: Samuel Gray (#562)
#564. To: Samuel Gray (#562)
More vitriol and unsubstantiated allegation. Now I'm burning Bibles, at least metaphorically.
#565. To: Zipporah (#563)
#566. To: Samuel Gray (#565)
#567. To: noone222 (#564)
#568. To: Samuel Gray (#565)
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