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Title: Top Cardinal Blasts 'Da Vinci Code' as 'Cheap Lies'
Source:
Netscape News
URL Source: http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news ... 2&dt=20050315130200&w=RTR&covi
Published: Mar 15, 2005
Author: Reuters
Post Date: 2005-03-15 17:59:13 by Mr Nuke Buzzcut
Keywords: Cardinal, Blasts, Cheap
Views: 8792
Comments: 568
Top Cardinal Blasts 'Da Vinci Code' as 'Cheap Lies' ROME (Reuters) - A top Catholic cardinal has blasted "The Da Vinci Code" as a "gross and absurd" distortion of history and said Catholic bookstores should take the bestseller off their shelves because it is full of "cheap lies." Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone, in an interview with the Milan newspaper Il Giornale, became the highest ranking Italian Churchman to speak out against the book, an international blockbuster that has sold millions of copies. "(It) aims to discredit the Church and its history through gross and absurd manipulations," Bertone, the archbishop of the northern Italian city of Genoa and a close friend of Pope John Paul told the paper in its Monday edition. "This seems like a throwback to the old anti-clerical pamphlets of the 1800s," he said. The central claim of the book, written by American Dan Brown, is that Jesus married Mary Magdalene and had children. The Bible says Jesus never married, was crucified and rose from the dead. Bertone's comments were significant because until the Pope named him archbishop of Genoa in 2003 he was for years the number two man at the Vatican's most powerful department - the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. "You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real," he said. "I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that." HOLY GRAIL A central storyline of the book is that the Holy Grail is not the cup which Christ is said to have used at the Last Supper but really the bloodline descended from Jesus and Mary Magdalene. Bertone calls this idea "a perversion." Bertone is so incensed about the novel that he will be the key speaker at a roundtable in Genoa Wednesday night attempting to dismantle the book, which also accuses the Church of covering up the female role in Christianity. "I will try to clear things up and help form consciences," the cardinal said. "I think that when faced with affirmations that are so shameful and unfounded, readers who have even a minimum of basic (Christian) formation should react," he said. He said it was "sad" that even Catholic bookstores were selling The Da Vinci Code "for purely economic reasons." One bookstore selling "The Da Vinci Code" is the one in the Gemelli Hospital, a Catholic institution where the Pope spent a total of 28 days in two stints in February and March. In the interview, Bertone firmly rejected the book's claim that the feminine role in Christianity had been suppressed. "This is one of the most vulgar of inventions. The feminine element is present in all the Gospels," Bertone said. Bertone also strongly defended Opus Dei, the conservative Church organization that the book depicts as a ruthless, Machiavellian group that resorts even to murder in its attempt to keep the Church's secrets hidden. The novel is going to reach an even wider audience next year with the release of a film based on the book staring Tom Hanks. © Copyright Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of Reuters Ltd. 03/15/2005 13:02 RTR
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#115. To: Zipporah (#111)
God and I, I imagine, shall settle our accounts privately at some point. I don't think I'm being dishonest to the congregation by playing praise music. Many of the large, non-denom. churches pay their musicians for working Sunday, and many of THOSE musicians are non-practicing Christians. It's just a "gig". One bassist I know of plays the bars on Saturday nights, and "metro church" on Sunday, collecting healthy paychecks for both. It's not dishonest to myself, I know why I'm there. I explained it. The music.
I can read vampire stories without believing in vampires, or read books on the civil war without being a Rebel or Yankee...all for amusement, education, etc. Why then, can I not play religious music without being religious?
Maybe in your eyes it's just music.. but it is rather a paradox. To God the church and to Christians it's not just music. But as I said it's nothing personal, in the past I was very involved with church ministries and a statement of faith was a criteria to participate in those ministries. So it just doesnt make sense.. ?
well, I suppose that you can do it, as you apparently are. Like I said, I just find it amusing. I guess not coming from a big city, I have never seen "church rent-a-bands". All the church bands I have witnessed are believers and lead a ministry of sorts. But then, I have not seen alot of things. My 18th century personality flaw again. ;0)
I suppose there is lies the difference .. you see it as entertainment and those of faith do not.
hmmmm...what is it we do, then, with friends? ;)
Yep. Not only that, they winners wrote the bible and excised the parts that refuted their particular cult.
Thor is gonna get ya yet, or perhaps Diana, or perhaps Zeus will get you yet, perhaps the earth Goddess will claim you for her own, or perhaps the elephant god will claim you, or perhaps the Sun god Ur will get you yet as well. Someone elses religion, is someone elses mythology, with me it is ALL mythology. It is a belief in something that cannot be proven, in order to somehow deal with a life that you are too weak to handle on your own and need the crutch of religion to help you deal with it. That's fine, if you need a crutch, so be it, but I do NOT need a crutch, or some god of mythology to pray to to take care of me and my life. Death does not frighten me, I haven't the foggiest notion of what comes after, but I will find out soon enough, why concentrate 10-50% of my life on a concept that I would probably be wrong about anyway. 99.99% of all religions are probably wrong about what comes after, the only reason that they concentrate so hard on it, is beause death scares people and they want to KNOW what comes after. Christianity is a YOUNG religion, with a BLOODY history, forcing itself into human and pagan societies. Become Christian or die was the choice, problem is, that you can't even decide which Christian sect is right, and if YOUR certain interpratation is indeed the correct one. I always hear Christians claiming that they alone know the truth, and I always laugh at you, if the bible is indeed God's word, then should just ONE be correct, and which one is it? Bible the word of God, yeah, right, more like the words of uneducated sheep herders in the case of Genesis, and then some historical fantasies with some modicum of fact attached to them, and then the New Testament made up out of whole cloth by 3rd and 4th hand people that never even met jesus, let alone wrote truly about him. This whole conversation has been a kick in a half for me, then again, I love these discussions, because I get to watch Christians tear into each other for no apparent reason except they alone have the answer and the other christian, who themselves believe they have the answer just go into psycho mode. It's just fun to watch..
Uhm, if you'd been paying attention, you would have noticed that I quite clearly stated that I believe the bible is wrapped around general historical events in history and that it is the supernatural claims and the dictatorial commandments about who/how man should worship that are ridiculously absurd.
Oh yeah, they tore it into itsy bitsy pieces, the winner writes history, and that is exactly the way it was with the bible, and especially the new testament.
That's fine if you choose to believe that, but don't make the mistake of thinking there is even one tiny little shred of evidence to support the notion.
Why quote Thomas? He saw.....he believed..........there is no record of his ever doubting again.........there is evidence he missioned to India setting up at least two churches following Christ's teachings.
Dance the tango? ;P
But, if one is to subscribe to logic, then the burden of proof is squarely upon the one making the affirmation of existence. The logically default position with respect to claims of existence is one of disbelief -- until such time as actual verifiable, substantiable evidence can be entered into the record and evaluated as concrete fact.
It took me a great many more years of diligent searching, studying, testing and prayer before I realized that it is inconsistent with reality and therefore anti-life.
I have absolutely no idea. The only thing I know is that it has the Cardinal's panties in a bunch and drove him to say some awefully ironic things.
If one is going to be an honest christian, then one certainly must treat the gnostic gospels as important as the bible itself.
Someone elses religion, is someone elses mythology, with me it is ALL mythology. It is a belief in something that cannot be proven, in order to somehow deal with a life that you are too weak to handle on your own and need the crutch of religion to help you deal with it. That's fine, if you need a crutch, so be it, but I do NOT need a crutch, or some god of mythology to pray to to take care of me and my life. Death does not frighten me, I haven't the foggiest notion of what comes after, but I will find out soon enough, why concentrate 10-50% of my life on a concept that I would probably be wrong about anyway. 99.99% of all religions are probably wrong about what comes after, the only reason that they concentrate so hard on it, is beause death scares people and they want to KNOW what comes after. Christianity is a YOUNG religion, with a BLOODY history, forcing itself into human and pagan societies. Become Christian or die was the choice, problem is, that you can't even decide which Christian sect is right, and if YOUR certain interpratation is indeed the correct one. I always hear Christians claiming that they alone know the truth, and I always laugh at you, if the bible is indeed God's word, then should just ONE be correct, and which one is it? Bible the word of God, yeah, right, more like the words of uneducated sheep herders in the case of Genesis, and then some historical fantasies with some modicum of fact attached to them, and then the New Testament made up out of whole cloth by 3rd and 4th hand people that never even met jesus, let alone wrote truly about him. This whole conversation has been a kick in a half for me, then again, I love these discussions, because I get to watch Christians tear into each other for no apparent reason except they alone have the answer and the other christian, who themselves believe they have the answer just go into psycho mode. It's just fun to watch.. wow, I am not at all sure how to respond to your rant. But let me say, that I don't see any Christians tearing other Christians apart on this thread. i see Believers and Non-Believers squabbling, as your post clearly shows. But first, let me explain to you that I do not consider my faith a "crutch" as you do. I consider it a solid foundation on which to base my own personal life. What you do is your business. Sam and me have discussed faith numerouse times in the past and he teases me as much as I do him, so please tone down your harsh rhetoric. Also, let me very clear that, dispite your belief that Christian's fear death - I do not. I worked in all areas of health care from funeral home to trauma unit and everywhere in between. Death holds no mystery for me. And I don't claim to be the only person who "knows the truth" as your post states and no where did I claim such. I have no problem with what you do not believe, so why get so angry about what I believe? Like I posted above, when our times come, we will find out what happens, right? And, I see no psycho mode here - until your post.
So that is what the 4play article section is about?
I was merely pointing out his STAUNCH belief ... enough to die for !
I believe there is fraud involved.............playing music is giving praise and worthship to God. It is the type of boasting that Paul indicated was good boasting. The words written by Mr. Gray are to the contrary, obvliously. By using music this way for himself, whether financially or for the thrill of playing, is a farce. Of course, this is my opinion........and based on my understanding of scripture.
Who, or which 'sheepherder' do you believe wrote Genesis? The book is generally attributed by all theological scholars of various denominations to have been Moses. Moses was raised by the daughter of the Pharoah as a son of Pharoah. I suspect he would have been well educated. How about you?
I agree with ya. How easy it would have been for those disciples when facedd with death to deny Jesus Christ. The lines of communication were't that great back then. They could have denied Christ, and slunk off to Timbucktoo or wherever and lived a quiet existence. Instead, you have Peter insisting that he be crucified upside down because he wasn't worthy to be crucified the same way as Jesus was. I can't rememeber which one was pulled to death by a team of horses because he wouldn't deny Christ. All but John were martyred. Paul was, too. There were tons of martyrs. Nero in his madness used Christians who refused to deny Christ as human torches in the gardens about his palace! I don't know about you, but I can get a frickin burn on my finger and think I'm dying. I'm a coward..........I don't know if my faith is strong enough to be with the first century martyrs who refused. I wouldn't WANT to deny Him; yet I sure as hell wouldn't want to be burned at a stake, nor attacked and killed by lions or bears, and I don't being crucified would be very pleasant neither, nor would stoning, or drowning. I pray daily that my faith be strengthened to where I can have no doubt.
My sister had a near death experience, which she detailed for me. I don't say this is proof of anything ... but it's a little shred of evidence !
Me too. However, I am a little different in this respect. I forecast the scenario and determine my reaction should it occur. I have NEVER deviated from this strategy but did think I might reconsider it when the cops were chasing me down Highway 8 in San Diego at 120 MPH ... but I had made up my mind in advance to run ... and I damn sure did ! I want you to say something to our mutual friend about Scott.
The Bible says that Moses was trained in all of the Egyptian Sciences.
You stated that the Bible was a "work of fiction."
why? they died out, under persocution. The Bible didn't. The Bible has endured. how do you account for that?
The point of a sword, and mass market advertising?
Every time I participate in one of these threads, my "bozo" number goes up, so I realize this is futile, but it's really not for anyone to judge my motives or intentions for playing.
and there speaks your biased, uneducated mind. The Bible survived persocution from the Romans and Islamists, it's teachings were perverted by the Catholics, libeled by Atheists. Yet it still remains a book of moral and intellectual value with high recommendations from the Founding Fathers.
Read Adams or Jefferson sometimes, concerning Christianity. Jefferson wrote his OWN bible, deleting the miraculous references, and keeping the teachings of Jesus. Adams declared the Cross to be an "engine of grief" to mankind.
Adams declared the Cross to be an "engine of grief" to mankind. "Read Adams or Jefferson sometimes, concerning Christianity." I didn't mention Christianity did I? "Jefferson wrote his OWN bible, deleting the miraculous references, and keeping the teachings of Jesus." Jefferson was a philosopher, and his intent in publishing his own Bible was to distinguish the philosopy of Jesus Christ from the philosophy of Plato. "I have always said that a studious perusal of the sacred volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands." -Thomas Jefferson. In that context, he wasn't talking about HIS Bible. "Adams declared the Cross to be an "engine of grief" to mankind." Got a link? What you do you think he meant by that?
John Adams: "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson "But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams You can google it. I've used the quotations before.
I agree with him completely. But I fail to find a condemnation of the Bible in his statements.
Counselor, this isn't a court of law. It's your decision to believe or not. In the meantime, we have the First Amendment in this country. Freedom of Religion and all that? I can start a religion worshipping my right, big toe and I don't have to prove a thing. Christianity and belief in Christ is much more established than my pretend church. Prove something? Yeah, right. In your dreams. Christianity is here and it will stay here. Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not.
Me either Don.
Is it accurate to say that it was perverted by the Catholics? I have seen Bibles dating from 800 AD. There is one on display in Cork Ireland that dates from this period. Given that this is serveral hundred years prior to Martin Luther, and given that the Roman Catholic Church decided which books to include in the Bible and which to toss, e.g., the book of Mary, wouldn't it be more accurate to say: "The teachings were selected and compiled by the Roman Catholic Church and later adopted unaltered by the protestant sects"?
"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God....What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."- John Adams.
In the meantime, we have the First Amendment in this country. Freedom of Religion and all that? I can start a religion worshipping my right, big toe and I don't have to prove a thing. Christianity and belief in Christ is much more established than my pretend church. Prove something? Yeah, right. In your dreams. Christianity is here and it will stay here. Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not. And that brings us back to "My God can beat up your facts". Sigh. Thus has it always been. Two camps of people yelling past one another. I've already lost one friend today, I think I'll just leave it at that. Believe/don't believe. I don't, you do. Tomato, TomAHto, potato, potAHto, let's call the whole thing off.
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#116. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#114)
#117. To: Samuel Gray (#115)
#118. To: Samuel Gray (#116)
Why then, can I not play religious music without being religious?
#119. To: Samuel Gray (#116)
.all for amusement, education, etc.
#120. To: 1776 (#108)
Never discuss religion, politics, or anything else.
#121. To: 2Trievers (#55)
Heh. Are you saying "the winners write history?"
#122. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#114)
#123. To: Continental Op (#60)
so we have progressed thus far that you admit the Bible is not entirely a work of fiction?
#124. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#121)
Not only that, they winners wrote the bible and excised the parts that refuted their particular cult.
#125. To: noone222 (#61)
Personally I think life after death is already a done deal. The only thing left to determine is the Zip Code. [7777777 or 666666]
#126. To: Samuel Gray (#33)
Thomas was on the right track. Lest I see the nail prints and thrust my hand into his side...
#127. To: christine, 1776 (#120)
#128. To: Don (#64)
You say that we can't prove that He was divine. But, the truth is you can't prove that He wasn't.
#129. To: Samuel Gray (#69)
I believe critical examination of anything is crucial to understanding it. As Mekons alluded to earlier, when I began that critical examination of my faith, as early as seven years old, it evaporated into smoke and departed. I've never found it since, although, I confess having not looked very hard for it.
#130. To: Rothbard (#89)
Can anyone give me a brief 1 paragraph synopsis of this book. Whats its point? I really dont want to read this book, as its very large, and quite frankly I have enough really thick books on my shelf that need reading.... I dont need another one..... but I'm still curious what its all about.
#131. To: Aric2000 (#124)
Oh yeah, they tore it into itsy bitsy pieces, the winner writes history, and that is exactly the way it was with the bible, and especially the new testament.
#132. To: Aric2000 (#122)
Thor is gonna get ya yet, or perhaps Diana, or perhaps Zeus will get you yet, perhaps the earth Goddess will claim you for her own, or perhaps the elephant god will claim you, or perhaps the Sun god Ur will get you yet as well.
#133. To: Zipporah, christine (#127)
Dance the tango? ;P
#134. To: rowdee (#126)
Why quote Thomas?
#135. To: Zipporah (#94)
#136. To: Aric2000 (#122)
Bible the word of God, yeah, right, more like the words of uneducated sheep herders in the case of Genesis, and then some historical fantasies with some modicum of fact attached to them, and then the New Testament made up out of whole cloth by 3rd and 4th hand people that never even met jesus, let alone wrote truly about him.
#137. To: noone222 (#134)
#138. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#125)
but don't make the mistake of thinking there is even one tiny little shred of evidence to support the notion.
#139. To: rowdee (#137)
I pray daily that my faith be strengthened to where I can have no doubt.
#140. To: rowdee (#136)
Moses was raised by the daughter of the Pharoah as a son of Pharoah. I suspect he would have been well educated. How about you?
#141. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#123)
Uhm, if you'd been paying attention, you would have noticed that I quite clearly stated that I believe the bible is wrapped around general historical events in history and that it is the supernatural claims and the dictatorial commandments about who/how man should worship that are ridiculously absurd.
#142. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut (#131)
If one is going to be an honest christian, then one certainly must treat the gnostic gospels as important as the bible itself.
#143. To: Continental Op (#142)
The Bible has endured. how do you account for that?
#144. To: rowdee (#135)
#145. To: Samuel Gray (#143)
The point of a sword, and mass market advertising?
#146. To: Continental Op (#145)
#147. To: Samuel Gray (#146)
Read Adams or Jefferson sometimes, concerning Christianity. Jefferson wrote his OWN bible, deleting the miraculous references, and keeping the teachings of Jesus.
#148. To: Continental Op (#147)
#149. To: Samuel Gray (#148)
#150. To: Mr Nuke Buzzcut, All (#128)
the burden of proof is squarely upon the one making the affirmation of existence.
#151. To: Don (#150)
Sorry 'bout that. No, I'm not.
#152. To: Continental Op (#145)
... it's teachings were perverted by the Catholics ...
#153. To: Samuel Gray (#148)
#154. To: Don (#150)
Counselor, this isn't a court of law. It's your decision to believe or not.
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