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Science/Tech
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Title: Creationists: can they be scientists? You bet!
Source: Answers In Genesis
URL Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/wow/preview/part9.asp
Published: Feb 11, 2006
Author: Pam S. Sheppard
Post Date: 2006-02-11 17:02:42 by A K A Stone
Keywords: Creationists:, scientists?, they
Views: 2522
Comments: 382

As an astrophysicist, Dr. Jason Lisle (author of chapters 5, 6, and 10 of War of the Worldviews) knows that a belief in molecules-to-man evolution is not needed to understand how planets orbit the sun or how telescopes operate. While some evolutionists are spreading the false idea that creationists can’t be real scientists, Lisle is busy doing real science.

In fact, he (along with hundreds of other scientists) knows that science works perfectly well without any connection to evolution. Dr. David Menton, cell biologist and popular AiG speaker and writer, has often said that although it is widely believed, “evolution contributes nothing to our understanding of empirical science and thus plays no essential role in biomedical research or education.”

As Lisle points out in this chapter, even the rise of technology is not due to a belief in evolution. He writes, “Computers, cellular phones and DVD players all operate based on the laws of physics, which God created. It is because God created a logical, orderly universe and gave us the ability to reason and to be creative that technology is possible.”

So, why are there such differences between evolutionary scientists and creation scientists if both groups have the same evidence? Lisle addresses these differing conclusions by explaining that each group starts with different assumptions when interpreting evidence. Creationists and evolutionists have a different view of history, but the way they do science in the present is the same.

Lisle writes that both creationists and evolutionists use observation and experimentation to draw conclusions about nature. Since observational scientific theories are capable of being tested in the present, creationists and evolutionists generally agree on these models. For instance, they agree on the nature of gravity, the composition of stars, the speed of light in a vacuum, the size of the solar system, etc.

On the other hand, historical events cannot be checked scientifically in the present. We don’t have access to the past. As Lisle points out, we can make educated guesses about the past and can make inferences from fossils and rocks, but we cannot directly test our conclusions because past events cannot be repeated.

With evolutionists and creationists having such different views of history, is it any wonder that each group arrives at such varying interpretations? Biblical creationists accept the recorded history of the Bible as their starting point while evolutionists reject this recorded history and have made up their own pseudo-history from which to interpret evidence, Lisle explains.

The fact that there are scientists who believe in biblical creation is nothing new. In this chapter, Lisle discusses several “real” scientists who believe in the Genesis account of creation, including Isaac Newton (1642–1727), who co-discovered calculus, formulated the laws of motion and gravity, and computed the nature of planetary orbits, among other things.

Today, there are many Ph.D. scientists who reject evolution and believe that God created in six days, a few thousand years ago, as recorded in Scripture. As Lisle points out, his Ph.D. research (which was completed at a secular university) was not hindered by the conviction that the early chapters of Genesis are literally true. In fact, it’s just the reverse, he writes.

“It is because a logical God created and ordered the universe that I, and other creationists, expect to be able to understand aspects of that universe through logic, careful observation and experimentation,” Lisle explains.

Lisle concludes the chapter by posing the question, “Why should there be laws of nature if there is no lawgiver?”

“If our minds have been designed, and if the universe has been constructed by God, as the Bible teaches, then of course we should be able to study nature. Science is possible because the Bible is true,” says Lisle.

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#68. To: mehitable (#66)

I don't know. And that actually is the...CORRECT answer.

Yep.

But you can't then say that you have any evidence that god actually exists, where as you CAN say that there is evidence to support evolution.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:19:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Feynman Lives!, all (#63)

I showed you were evolution HAS occured in the lab. From one species into a completely NEW species.

The problem is obviously how you define the word "species". Some plant changing color or growing another petal doesn't really equate "species" in the real world. That's the kind of evolutionary proof that I see scientists pushing - some change, however dramatic in one species that obviously does not change it into another species. It's still a plant. Until you can show those missing links, you don't have a demonstrable mechanism.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:19:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: mehitable (#65)

Don't you see how that flower developed a 6th PETAL - that's evolution

Mehitable,

You just pointed out how evolution works and then you denied it.

Interesting...

And you said that I stopped debate...

LOL

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:21:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: mehitable (#62)

Possibly - but do they all have a common ancestor with a squid? I don't know? Is evolution on-going? I see no evidence of it, nor has anyone ever presented any evidence that it is on-going - but maybe evolution itself was an anomaly. I don't know.

Go back far enough and they do. But simply having a common ancestor at all would be proof of evolution.

I'm of the opinion that evolution as it now stands may not hold all the answers, but it seems more likely to be correct than any other theory out there.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:21:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Feynman Lives! (#63)

I showed you were evolution HAS occured in the lab. From one species into a completely NEW species. You choose not to acknowledge it. Hey, that is your choice, but it does not discount that it has been demonstrated.

I don't buy it. Show us all again, slowly and clearly, and explain what is meant by "species". Thank you.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:23:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: mehitable (#69)

Some plant changing color or growing another petal doesn't really equate "species" in the real world.

Again, you show proof of evolution and then say that it does not count.

Quite humorous...

It shows how little you understand about the topic.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:24:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Dakmar (#71)

That's fine - my objection is not inherently to the theory of evolution. As I said initially, I don't really care how we got here. My objection is to the imposition of a dogma which shuts down all other possibilities or modes of thought. This dogmatic manner of thinking is as common in science as it is in other realms of life, including religion, but it's particularly onerous in science as science purports to be objective and dispassionate and lacking in "belief" systems. I have found that's simply not true. Look at the debate over global warming, just to give another example.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:25:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Feynman Lives! (#63)

Sure being able to show evolution in a lab is not as impressive to those who don't understand science, but it DOES show evolution in action.

Would you kindly get off this offensive "don't understand science"? I'm not quite yet prepared to allow you to occupy your own self-created position of authority.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:28:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: mehitable (#62)

Is evolution on-going? I see no evidence of it, nor has anyone ever presented any evidence that it is on-going - but maybe evolution itself was an anomaly. I don't know.

I have presented you with AMPLE evidence of evolution, you just choose to ignore it.

Evolution is a continual process.

Dogs from wolves and there is plenty of proof of that to show you, but you poo- poo it saying that it is just a "plant that grew an extra petal."

So, if you choose to ignore the facts, then why are we bothering trying to explain things to you?

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:28:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Feynman Lives!, all (#73)

I think we are arguing semantics here. Obviously your little change in a plant is technically an evolution -meaning CHANGE - in the plant. A development. However, it does not demonstrate how that plant became an animal. Or how anything else became something completely different from what it is. We have not found any missing links. A dog is a dog is a dog. A plant is a plant is a plant. A brontosaurus is a bronto is a bronto - or maybe lizard might be more correct.

Just because you cannot imagine any other mechanism for the creation of current species on earth other than everything evolving from some "lower" form of life, does not mean that another mechanism does not or did not exist.

You still have not explained the mechanism for developing unique species such as dogs, camelias and brontosauruses because you DON"T KNOW IT. At least I am honest enough to say I don't know.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:28:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: mehitable (#69)

The problem is obviously how you define the word "species".

That's exactly where I expect him to go, to definitions.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:29:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: mehitable (#74)

I don't see scientists burning down churches and locking up those with whom they disagree, so I'm not concerned with what they believe. There is an orthodoxy in any field of study, but a good scientist tries to keep above the fray. Most bad science - and I almost said all, but there are a few real jackasses out there - is politically motivated. Almost all organised religion is politically motivated, so it comes down you a question of "who are you going to trust?" for me.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:32:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Feynman Lives! (#68)

But you can't then say that you have any evidence that god actually exists, where as you CAN say that there is evidence to support evolution.

You are so wrong.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:32:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Feynman Lives! (#76)

Dogs from wolves

It is obvious that a dog is merely a form of wolf that has been bred for various characteristics for generations. Now tell me how that wolf evolved from a velociraptor or some such creature, and you have something. There is no great disimilarity between a dog and a wolfe. We can all see this.

You are expanding development from an obviously related animal into a theory that postulates development from obviously UNRELATED animals without any proof of this. There are no missing links. This dog/wolf argument of yours is meaningless. Where did the wolf come from? Or the prototype of the wolf? or the creature before that? What is the mechanism? You DON'T KNOW THAT. NO ONE DOES.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:32:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Feynman Lives! (#64)

Ok... so what created god? God can't create himself.

How could you, a mere human being, possibly know?

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:34:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: All (#81)

More simply - if mankind developed from some lower order primate in a not too distant past, why do we see no evidence of other lower order primates evolving into some higher order resembling man? Did this process simply stop? Do you think it was a one time thing, or is it on-going?

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:34:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: mehitable (#83)

More simply - if mankind developed from some lower order primate in a not too distant past, why do we see no evidence of other lower order primates evolving into some higher order resembling man?

We do - they were called Neanderthals.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:36:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Dakmar, all (#84)

Actually that's not the point I was making. The point I was making is why have we - in 5000 years of observation (I do not consider our ancestors totally moronic even without the observations of Feyniman Lives) - not seen any evolution of lower order primates such as chimps, baboons, gorillas - whatever - into a different or higher order. As far as I know, something that was a chimp 50k or 500k years ago is still a chimp today. So has this process stopped? Was it a one time thing? Apparently it is not on-going or we would still be observing it today.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Feynman Lives! (#76)

... why are we bothering trying to explain things to you?

What snide arrogance. Let me see your badge.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:40:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: mehitable (#77)

Just because you cannot imagine any other mechanism for the creation of current species on earth other than everything evolving from some "lower" form of life, does not mean that another mechanism does not or did not exist.

An just because you can, and it deals with an imagnary friend, does not mean that it DOES.

EVOLUTION - ANY change in a population's allele frequencies over time.

The mechanism for change in development of unique species has already been explained. Scientists have shown that beneficial mutations do occur to produce brand new alleles (variants of genes) that improve an organism's chances of survival in a particular environment.

1. All organisms produce far more offspring than can survive to adulthood and reproduce. This means that many of those offspring will die without reproduction.
2. Organisms vary in many ways, and much of that variation is heritable - that is, variations that exist in the parents are passed on to the offspring.
3. Some of those heritable, variable traits affect an organism's fitness - its ability to survive to reproductive maturity.
4. Those traits that increase an organism's fitness will tend to be passed on to the organism's offspring and to subsequent generations.

Now, I am glad that you are honest enough to say that you don't know, because it is clear that you do not.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:40:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Phaedrus (#82)

How could you, a mere human being, possibly know?

And how could you, a mere human being, possibly know otherwise?

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:41:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Phaedrus (#80)

But you can't then say that you have any evidence that god actually exists, where as you CAN say that there is evidence to support evolution.

You are so wrong.

Please, Phaedrus,

Show me FACTS that support your belief in your imaginary friend.

Not circumstantial evidence or whistful theories, actual FACTS.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:42:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Phaedrus (#86)

I see that one trait that hasn't evolved among evolutionists is humility, lol.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:43:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Feynman Lives! (#89)

Show me FACTS that support your belief in your imaginary friend.

Are you an atheist?

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:44:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: mehitable (#83)

More simply - if mankind developed from some lower order primate in a not too distant past, why do we see no evidence of other lower order primates evolving into some higher order resembling man? Did this process simply stop? Do you think it was a one time thing, or is it on-going?

Mehitable,

Mankind has evolved over MILLIONS of years, not "the not too distant past."

Our evolution from Australiopithicus to Homo Sapien is well documented.

That takes you back about 4 million years.

Sorry that science has not nailed down ALL the facts yet... but there is AMPLE evidence to show that we EVOLVED into Homo Sapiens.

This process is ongoing, and will not ever stop, one day we will evolve OUT of Homo Sapiens into the next order of primate.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:45:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: mehitable (#91)

Are you an atheist?

That has nothing to do with my question to Phaedrus.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:45:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: mehitable (#85)

5,000 years isn't enough time for major changes, but if you go back 500,000 years you'll see a lot of change. Gorillas din't evolve into humans because we have different environments, the same reason humans have feet for walking instead of grasping branches.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:47:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Dakmar (#94)

5,000 years isn't enough time for major changes, but if you go back 500,000 years you'll see a lot of change. Gorillas din't evolve into humans because we have different environments, the same reason humans have feet for walking instead of grasping branches.

In 5000 years, if evolution were an on-going process, we should have seen some change SOME WHERE in lower order primates. That is the whole point of an ON-GOING process - that it IS on-going which means examples crop up every now and then and branch off. I am not aware of anything like that observable in any of the lower order primates which would argue against the postulation that evolution is or must be "on-going". You are asking me to accept something that is not only not observable, but which in fact HAS NOT been observed. That is called "faith", not science. That is why evolution is ultimately a belief system. I think the bottom line point of evolution is to provide those who have no belief in a God, with some explanation of how things came into being. That is why evolutionists defend even the least defensible parts of their theory (such as non-evolving lower primates) with such zeal. It is because it is their replacement for religion.

I don't care whether they believe in God, it doesn't matter. I just don't like to see an obvious philosophical belief system being put forth as scientific "fact".

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:53:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Feynman Lives! (#92)

This process is ongoing, and will not ever stop, one day we will evolve OUT of Homo Sapiens into the next order of primate.

I'm not so sure about the last part. Survival of the fittest no longer plays a role in homo sapiens, so regression or stagnation are distinct possibilities.

(That was meant to be vaguely humorous).

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:54:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Feynman Lives! (#89)

Show me FACTS that support your belief in your imaginary friend.

No No No FL. We are discussing EVOLUTION. You are attempting to change the subject. Start a new thread and we'll discuss the reality of God.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:55:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Feynman Lives! (#93)

It's a simple yes, or no question, and as you can see from my response to Dakmar below, I think it is highly relevant.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:55:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Feynman Lives! (#92)

This process is ongoing, and will not ever stop, one day we will evolve OUT of Homo Sapiens into the next order of primate.

And we are to believe this because you say so.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:56:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: mehitable (#95)

I am not aware of anything like that observable in any of the lower order primates which would argue against the postulation that evolution is or must be "on-going". You are asking me to accept something that is not only not observable, but which in fact HAS NOT been observed.

Have you observed the Earth rotating and orbitting the Sun? Some things cannot be observed in and of themselves, we simply have to go with the most logical explanation sometimes.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:56:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Feynman Lives! (#93)

That has nothing to do with my question to Phaedrus.

Really?

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:56:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: mehitable (#95)

In 5000 years, if evolution were an on-going process, we should have seen some change SOME WHERE in lower order primates
You are asking me to accept something that is not only not observable, but which in fact HAS NOT been observed.

Well, then,if you are looking for SMALL changes... sure.

Observe THIS:

Our species lives longer, is taller, healthier, has stronger bone structure, and bigger brain cases than we did 5000 years ago.

So, there ya go.

Short term evolution in the flesh for ya, Mehitable.

Or are you going to deny that these documentable things are true?

They are examples of the evolution of our species.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:57:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Phaedrus (#99)

And we are to believe this because you say so.

No, you can presuppose this because you can see evidence of it in our ancestry.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:58:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Dakmar (#100)

Have you observed the Earth rotating and orbitting the Sun? Some things cannot be observed in and of themselves, we simply have to go with the most logical explanation sometimes.

But those things actually HAVE been observed in and of themselves, both here on earth and in our explorations in space....unlike the evolution of lower order primates.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:58:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Phaedrus (#97)

Phaedrus: How could you, a mere human being, possibly know?
My Response: And how could you, a mere human being, possibly know otherwise?

YOU were the one who introduced the myth of god into the conversation, I was simply responding to your comment.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:00:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Feynman Lives! (#102)

Our species lives longer, is taller, healthier, has stronger bone structure, and bigger brain cases than we did 5000 years ago.

So, there ya go.

Short term evolution in the flesh for ya, Mehitable.

Or are you going to deny that these documentable things are true?

They are examples of the evolution of our species.

Examples of evolution? Golly, I thought these had to do with nutrition and sanitation. And where are the new species? Pretty lame, FL.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:02:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: mehitable (#104)

But those things actually HAVE been observed in and of themselves, both here on earth and in our explorations in space....unlike the evolution of lower order primates

No one has observed the earth rotating around the sun, Mehitable.

We have scientific evidence to support that it does, but no one has actually WITNESSED it.

Sorry.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:03:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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