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Title: Creationists: can they be scientists? You bet!
Source: Answers In Genesis
URL Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/wow/preview/part9.asp
Published: Feb 11, 2006
Author: Pam S. Sheppard
Post Date: 2006-02-11 17:02:42 by A K A Stone
Keywords: Creationists:, scientists?, they
Views: 2188
Comments: 382

As an astrophysicist, Dr. Jason Lisle (author of chapters 5, 6, and 10 of War of the Worldviews) knows that a belief in molecules-to-man evolution is not needed to understand how planets orbit the sun or how telescopes operate. While some evolutionists are spreading the false idea that creationists can’t be real scientists, Lisle is busy doing real science.

In fact, he (along with hundreds of other scientists) knows that science works perfectly well without any connection to evolution. Dr. David Menton, cell biologist and popular AiG speaker and writer, has often said that although it is widely believed, “evolution contributes nothing to our understanding of empirical science and thus plays no essential role in biomedical research or education.”

As Lisle points out in this chapter, even the rise of technology is not due to a belief in evolution. He writes, “Computers, cellular phones and DVD players all operate based on the laws of physics, which God created. It is because God created a logical, orderly universe and gave us the ability to reason and to be creative that technology is possible.”

So, why are there such differences between evolutionary scientists and creation scientists if both groups have the same evidence? Lisle addresses these differing conclusions by explaining that each group starts with different assumptions when interpreting evidence. Creationists and evolutionists have a different view of history, but the way they do science in the present is the same.

Lisle writes that both creationists and evolutionists use observation and experimentation to draw conclusions about nature. Since observational scientific theories are capable of being tested in the present, creationists and evolutionists generally agree on these models. For instance, they agree on the nature of gravity, the composition of stars, the speed of light in a vacuum, the size of the solar system, etc.

On the other hand, historical events cannot be checked scientifically in the present. We don’t have access to the past. As Lisle points out, we can make educated guesses about the past and can make inferences from fossils and rocks, but we cannot directly test our conclusions because past events cannot be repeated.

With evolutionists and creationists having such different views of history, is it any wonder that each group arrives at such varying interpretations? Biblical creationists accept the recorded history of the Bible as their starting point while evolutionists reject this recorded history and have made up their own pseudo-history from which to interpret evidence, Lisle explains.

The fact that there are scientists who believe in biblical creation is nothing new. In this chapter, Lisle discusses several “real” scientists who believe in the Genesis account of creation, including Isaac Newton (1642–1727), who co-discovered calculus, formulated the laws of motion and gravity, and computed the nature of planetary orbits, among other things.

Today, there are many Ph.D. scientists who reject evolution and believe that God created in six days, a few thousand years ago, as recorded in Scripture. As Lisle points out, his Ph.D. research (which was completed at a secular university) was not hindered by the conviction that the early chapters of Genesis are literally true. In fact, it’s just the reverse, he writes.

“It is because a logical God created and ordered the universe that I, and other creationists, expect to be able to understand aspects of that universe through logic, careful observation and experimentation,” Lisle explains.

Lisle concludes the chapter by posing the question, “Why should there be laws of nature if there is no lawgiver?”

“If our minds have been designed, and if the universe has been constructed by God, as the Bible teaches, then of course we should be able to study nature. Science is possible because the Bible is true,” says Lisle.

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#92. To: mehitable (#83)

More simply - if mankind developed from some lower order primate in a not too distant past, why do we see no evidence of other lower order primates evolving into some higher order resembling man? Did this process simply stop? Do you think it was a one time thing, or is it on-going?

Mehitable,

Mankind has evolved over MILLIONS of years, not "the not too distant past."

Our evolution from Australiopithicus to Homo Sapien is well documented.

That takes you back about 4 million years.

Sorry that science has not nailed down ALL the facts yet... but there is AMPLE evidence to show that we EVOLVED into Homo Sapiens.

This process is ongoing, and will not ever stop, one day we will evolve OUT of Homo Sapiens into the next order of primate.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:45:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: mehitable (#91)

Are you an atheist?

That has nothing to do with my question to Phaedrus.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:45:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: mehitable (#85)

5,000 years isn't enough time for major changes, but if you go back 500,000 years you'll see a lot of change. Gorillas din't evolve into humans because we have different environments, the same reason humans have feet for walking instead of grasping branches.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:47:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Dakmar (#94)

5,000 years isn't enough time for major changes, but if you go back 500,000 years you'll see a lot of change. Gorillas din't evolve into humans because we have different environments, the same reason humans have feet for walking instead of grasping branches.

In 5000 years, if evolution were an on-going process, we should have seen some change SOME WHERE in lower order primates. That is the whole point of an ON-GOING process - that it IS on-going which means examples crop up every now and then and branch off. I am not aware of anything like that observable in any of the lower order primates which would argue against the postulation that evolution is or must be "on-going". You are asking me to accept something that is not only not observable, but which in fact HAS NOT been observed. That is called "faith", not science. That is why evolution is ultimately a belief system. I think the bottom line point of evolution is to provide those who have no belief in a God, with some explanation of how things came into being. That is why evolutionists defend even the least defensible parts of their theory (such as non-evolving lower primates) with such zeal. It is because it is their replacement for religion.

I don't care whether they believe in God, it doesn't matter. I just don't like to see an obvious philosophical belief system being put forth as scientific "fact".

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:53:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Feynman Lives! (#92)

This process is ongoing, and will not ever stop, one day we will evolve OUT of Homo Sapiens into the next order of primate.

I'm not so sure about the last part. Survival of the fittest no longer plays a role in homo sapiens, so regression or stagnation are distinct possibilities.

(That was meant to be vaguely humorous).

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:54:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Feynman Lives! (#89)

Show me FACTS that support your belief in your imaginary friend.

No No No FL. We are discussing EVOLUTION. You are attempting to change the subject. Start a new thread and we'll discuss the reality of God.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:55:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Feynman Lives! (#93)

It's a simple yes, or no question, and as you can see from my response to Dakmar below, I think it is highly relevant.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:55:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Feynman Lives! (#92)

This process is ongoing, and will not ever stop, one day we will evolve OUT of Homo Sapiens into the next order of primate.

And we are to believe this because you say so.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:56:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: mehitable (#95)

I am not aware of anything like that observable in any of the lower order primates which would argue against the postulation that evolution is or must be "on-going". You are asking me to accept something that is not only not observable, but which in fact HAS NOT been observed.

Have you observed the Earth rotating and orbitting the Sun? Some things cannot be observed in and of themselves, we simply have to go with the most logical explanation sometimes.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:56:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Feynman Lives! (#93)

That has nothing to do with my question to Phaedrus.

Really?

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:56:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: mehitable (#95)

In 5000 years, if evolution were an on-going process, we should have seen some change SOME WHERE in lower order primates
You are asking me to accept something that is not only not observable, but which in fact HAS NOT been observed.

Well, then,if you are looking for SMALL changes... sure.

Observe THIS:

Our species lives longer, is taller, healthier, has stronger bone structure, and bigger brain cases than we did 5000 years ago.

So, there ya go.

Short term evolution in the flesh for ya, Mehitable.

Or are you going to deny that these documentable things are true?

They are examples of the evolution of our species.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:57:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Phaedrus (#99)

And we are to believe this because you say so.

No, you can presuppose this because you can see evidence of it in our ancestry.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:58:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Dakmar (#100)

Have you observed the Earth rotating and orbitting the Sun? Some things cannot be observed in and of themselves, we simply have to go with the most logical explanation sometimes.

But those things actually HAVE been observed in and of themselves, both here on earth and in our explorations in space....unlike the evolution of lower order primates.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:58:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Phaedrus (#97)

Phaedrus: How could you, a mere human being, possibly know?
My Response: And how could you, a mere human being, possibly know otherwise?

YOU were the one who introduced the myth of god into the conversation, I was simply responding to your comment.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:00:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Feynman Lives! (#102)

Our species lives longer, is taller, healthier, has stronger bone structure, and bigger brain cases than we did 5000 years ago.

So, there ya go.

Short term evolution in the flesh for ya, Mehitable.

Or are you going to deny that these documentable things are true?

They are examples of the evolution of our species.

Examples of evolution? Golly, I thought these had to do with nutrition and sanitation. And where are the new species? Pretty lame, FL.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:02:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: mehitable (#104)

But those things actually HAVE been observed in and of themselves, both here on earth and in our explorations in space....unlike the evolution of lower order primates

No one has observed the earth rotating around the sun, Mehitable.

We have scientific evidence to support that it does, but no one has actually WITNESSED it.

Sorry.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:03:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: Feynman Lives!, all (#102)

LOL, those are the same inconsequential types of changes that I was referring to earlier with the colors of flowers or numbers of petals. So does the Wonder Bread generation of the past 25 years - taller, stronger, etc, reflect an evolutionary change in your terms?

And why am I not seeing any evolution amongst the lower order primates? As far as I can tell, there has been no change in chimps, baboons, gorillas, etc, in thousands of years - tens, or hundreds of thousands. Certainly nothing we have observed since we became aware of these species and nothing observable now. Does evolution not affect them? Perhaps they were by-passed for some reason?

The truth is that evolution is your particularly atheistic creation myth. I just want that to be acknowledged, just as the Christians and other peoples have their creation myths. You have no more evidence for yours than they do for theirs. Yours is equally circumstantial and based on the limits of what you can "imagine".

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   17:04:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Phaedrus (#106)

Examples of evolution? Golly, I thought these had to do with nutrition and sanitation. And where are the new species? Pretty lame, FL.

Evolution takes millions of years to form a new species.

She wanted evidence of short term evolution.

I gave it to her.

Also, expansion of the brian case is not a result of sanitation and nutrition.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:05:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Feynman Lives! (#105)

YOU were the one who introduced the myth of god into the conversation, I was simply responding to your comment.

"Myth of god"? Oh, my, aren't we arrogant. And Atheist. And THAT drives your conviction. And your narrative. I've clearly stated above that my objections to Evolution are based solely on the LACK OF EVIDENCE. But you don't want to discuss it.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:05:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: Feynman Lives!, all (#107)

Now you are being absurd. We have incalculable amounts of data in various fields that prove that this happens. we can actually send rockets to other plants or solar systems based on these observations. NONE of that is true of evolution. The two things do not equate AT ALL.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   17:06:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Feynman Lives! (#109)

Evolution takes millions of years to form a new species.

You don't KNOW this. Yet you state it. Back it up.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:06:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Feynman Lives! (#109)

Also, expansion of the brian case is not a result of sanitation and nutrition.

You have neither established that there has been any change in brain case (there is a WIDE variety among humans) OR that that has ANYTHING to do with Evolution. Where is the new species?

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:08:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: mehitable (#108)

And why am I not seeing any evolution amongst the lower order primates?

Mehitable.

The easy answer is because you are not looking.

The more complex answer, and the one you wont like, is that it IS occurring in primates, turtles, fish, and every other species on the planet.

But again, along the lines that you will swiftly discount because you don't want to see them. Evolution to a new species can take MILLIONS of years, not 5000 or 50,000 years. Sorry you are so impatient.

Expansion of the brain case of a species is a REMARKABLE development in evolution, Mehitable. Just because you do not have the requisite understanding does not discount its importance.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:08:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: mehitable (#108)

Species strive mightily to remain unchanged, over millions of years.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:10:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Phaedrus (#113)

You have neither established that there has been any change in brain case (there is a WIDE variety among humans) OR that that has ANYTHING to do with Evolution. Where is the new species?

Evolution does not necessarily result in a new species, Phaedrus.

Again, because you CLEARLY are not grasping the concept:

"evolution - any change in a population's allele frequencies over time "

ANY change in the population's allele frequencies. Not ONE, but the POPULATION.

You can go back as recently as to the time of the Egyptians and see how the brain case of humans have expanded.

THAT, my friend, is DIRECT evidence that our species is evolving.

The new species is a long time in coming, much like Homo Sapiens took millions of years to evolve from Homo Erectus and Homo Habilis.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:12:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: Phaedrus (#115)

Species strive mightily to remain unchanged, over millions of years.

A laughably false statement.

Please show me where you got that one...

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:13:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: Feynman Lives!, all (#114)

Again, it is obvious that the one trait evolutionists have not evolved is humility.

To simply make tiresome assertions over and over again does not prove your point. There IS no evidence that lower order primates such as I have noted have been evolving into any other species in all the time that mankind has been observing them, nor is there any evidence of it today. If evolution were an on-going process, this would not be true.

I understand the need of athiests, just like other people, to invent a creation myth, which is what evolution is, of course, but I am tired of having it shoved down the throats of the rest of us who don't necessarily accept such theories without proof. To me, your belief system has the same relevance and depth of reasoning as that of a medieval monk who devoted years to determining how many angels could dance on the heads of pins. No doubt he could explain his ideas as logically and rationally as you do and with every bit as much fervor - to the same avail. You have no observable proof of one species evolving into another. Certainly not on any on-going basis. The lower order primates are proof of this and your foolish assertions that increasing size among humans (generally due to better nutrition and medicine) constitutes "evolution" just renders both you and the theory, laughable.

Believe in what you will, just don't try to cloak your creation myth in the cloak of science. I, for one, don't buy it. Unfortunately, I will have to leave this argument now.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   17:19:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: mehitable (#118)

There IS no evidence that lower order primates such as I have noted have been evolving into any other species in all the time that mankind has been observing them, nor is there any evidence of it today. If evolution were an on-going process, this would not be true.

mehitable,

I have shown you proof of evolution and you chose to ignore it.

Here: http://anthro.palomar .edu/earlyprimates/early_2.htm

Perhaps you can learn from this site that shows you how primates have evolved in the past 60,000,000 years.

Note that I did not say 6000 years.

60 MILLION years.

You keep asking for observable evidence. I showed you how in a lab setting they were able to give you observable evidence, but you laughed those facts off.

SO... go learn for yourself.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:25:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Feynman Lives! (#117)

Species strive mightily to remain unchanged, over millions of years

(you) A laughably false statement.

Coelacanth - and you are such an idiot.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:37:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: Phaedrus (#120)

What of them?

The coelacanth has remained relatively unchanged for 500,000 years.

Sharks have also remained relatively unchanged for roughly 800,000 years.

This is not because they STRIVE to remain unchanged.

It is because they have not had to adapt to their environment in any significant way.

No species STRIVES to remain unchanged, they would force themselves into extinction if they did so.

If a species does not adapt and evolve, it disappears.

Your statement is still moronic, phaedrus.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:41:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Feynman Lives!, all (#119)

Okay, my final comments on this topic.

You have made assertions and allegations and inferences about events taking place in an extremely distant past. These are based - just like a caveman's might be - on what you can "imagine" having taken place. Your level of imagination is obviously more sophisticated than his. However...and this is the critical point....you have shown NOTHING that indicates that evolution is an on-going process. If it were on-going, we would not have to look at remote fossils and make assumptions and inferences about what they were or how they were connected - we could SEE the process happening today. We could see, in the past several thousand years of primate history, SOME primates somewhere evolving into something else - unless evolution is NOT on-going.

If it is not on-going, then what might trigger it? And here is the problem with scientific dogma: my even raising the possibility that evolution is not an on-going process (to whatever extent it exists at all) would be seen as extremely disturbing to evolutionists because I am challenging something that is an article of FAITH to them.

Science should be about FACTS....not FAITH. Faith is the proper reserve of religion. When someone asks me to accept something that is not observable, we have gone beyond facts, or even beyond theories, and have landed in the land of FAITH.

Again - I don't object to athiests having a creation myth - just don't try to call it scientific FACT and force it upon the rest of us.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   17:43:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Feynman Lives! (#116)

Evolution does not necessarily result in a new species, Phaedrus.

"evolution - any change in a population's allele frequencies over time "

Really? Then what good is the "theory"? "Any change" has no meaning because it includes absolutely everything. Real science explains.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:43:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Feynman Lives! (#121)

No species STRIVES to remain unchanged ...

Well, yes they do, FL. Fruit flies in the laboratory were selectively bred into monsters. When then left to their own reproductive devices, they reverted to normal over successive generations. I would call that STRIVING to remain unchanged.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:47:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: mehitable (#122)

You have made assertions and allegations and inferences about events taking place in an extremely distant past. These are based - just like a caveman's might be - on what you can "imagine" having taken place.

No, Mehitable,

These inferences are based upon the fossil evidence that we have found.

You CAN see it happening today. I SHOWED it to you. Bigger Braincase is the easiest example. However you choose to ignore the facts. I can't help it if you ignore the facts, they still remain FACTS.

What triggers it? Again... Back to the basics: evolution - any change in a population's allele frequencies over time

Genetic mutations trigger it. If those mutations are beneficial, they are passed on to the next generation and potentially exposed to new genetic mutations.

This is why Asians have more eyeskin and people in africa have more melanin. Both are examples of EVOLUTION.

You want this to happen between commercial breaks while you watch your soap operas, but it takes a little longer than that.

Oh, and I never said I was an atheist, you are the one who improperly asserted this.

This IS about FACTS, not FAITH.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:50:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: Phaedrus (#124)

Well, yes they do, FL. Fruit flies in the laboratory were selectively bred into monsters. When then left to their own reproductive devices, they reverted to normal over successive generations. I would call that STRIVING to remain unchanged.

Then you did not understand the mechanism in place.

When left to their own devices they bred out the genetic mutations that were not beneficial to the survival of their species.

They did not STRIVE to remain unchanged. They, in fact, were STRIVING to CHANGE.

Oh, and I have read this study, they did not "revert back to ther original form" they simply bred out the oversized mutation. They never got "back to their orignal form." They were forever changed.

Read the report again.

They STROVE TO CHANGE.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:53:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: Feynman Lives! (#121)

Later, FL -- for the record, you lost the debate.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:53:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Phaedrus (#123)

Really? Then what good is the "theory"? "Any change" has no meaning because it includes absolutely everything. Real science explains.

Science does explain it.

Genetic mutations cause the change.

To change the allele of a POPULATION is a remarkable thing.

To have ONE genetic mutation is commonplace, it occurs with every breeding.

To have that mutation survive and be passed on is a process of natural selection.

Science explains this quite nicely.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:55:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Phaedrus (#127)

Later, FL -- for the record, you lost the debate.

ROFLMAO!

Phaedrus, you did not win the debate by a long shot. All you did was keep changing your story and denying the facts.

Nice try, and thanks for playing.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:56:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Phaedrus (#124)

Fruit flies in the laboratory were selectively bred into monsters. When then left to their own reproductive devices, they reverted to normal over successive generations.

So a population can be changed by both natural and and artifical selection yet a population cannot change or be changed? That's a tough sell.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   18:00:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: Dakmar (#130)

True, Dakmar.

He PROVES evolution with that statement, and then uses it to try to DISPROVE evolution?

An unusual debate tactic...

LOL

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:01:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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