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Title: Creationists: can they be scientists? You bet!
Source: Answers In Genesis
URL Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/wow/preview/part9.asp
Published: Feb 11, 2006
Author: Pam S. Sheppard
Post Date: 2006-02-11 17:02:42 by A K A Stone
Keywords: Creationists:, scientists?, they
Views: 2362
Comments: 382

As an astrophysicist, Dr. Jason Lisle (author of chapters 5, 6, and 10 of War of the Worldviews) knows that a belief in molecules-to-man evolution is not needed to understand how planets orbit the sun or how telescopes operate. While some evolutionists are spreading the false idea that creationists can’t be real scientists, Lisle is busy doing real science.

In fact, he (along with hundreds of other scientists) knows that science works perfectly well without any connection to evolution. Dr. David Menton, cell biologist and popular AiG speaker and writer, has often said that although it is widely believed, “evolution contributes nothing to our understanding of empirical science and thus plays no essential role in biomedical research or education.”

As Lisle points out in this chapter, even the rise of technology is not due to a belief in evolution. He writes, “Computers, cellular phones and DVD players all operate based on the laws of physics, which God created. It is because God created a logical, orderly universe and gave us the ability to reason and to be creative that technology is possible.”

So, why are there such differences between evolutionary scientists and creation scientists if both groups have the same evidence? Lisle addresses these differing conclusions by explaining that each group starts with different assumptions when interpreting evidence. Creationists and evolutionists have a different view of history, but the way they do science in the present is the same.

Lisle writes that both creationists and evolutionists use observation and experimentation to draw conclusions about nature. Since observational scientific theories are capable of being tested in the present, creationists and evolutionists generally agree on these models. For instance, they agree on the nature of gravity, the composition of stars, the speed of light in a vacuum, the size of the solar system, etc.

On the other hand, historical events cannot be checked scientifically in the present. We don’t have access to the past. As Lisle points out, we can make educated guesses about the past and can make inferences from fossils and rocks, but we cannot directly test our conclusions because past events cannot be repeated.

With evolutionists and creationists having such different views of history, is it any wonder that each group arrives at such varying interpretations? Biblical creationists accept the recorded history of the Bible as their starting point while evolutionists reject this recorded history and have made up their own pseudo-history from which to interpret evidence, Lisle explains.

The fact that there are scientists who believe in biblical creation is nothing new. In this chapter, Lisle discusses several “real” scientists who believe in the Genesis account of creation, including Isaac Newton (1642–1727), who co-discovered calculus, formulated the laws of motion and gravity, and computed the nature of planetary orbits, among other things.

Today, there are many Ph.D. scientists who reject evolution and believe that God created in six days, a few thousand years ago, as recorded in Scripture. As Lisle points out, his Ph.D. research (which was completed at a secular university) was not hindered by the conviction that the early chapters of Genesis are literally true. In fact, it’s just the reverse, he writes.

“It is because a logical God created and ordered the universe that I, and other creationists, expect to be able to understand aspects of that universe through logic, careful observation and experimentation,” Lisle explains.

Lisle concludes the chapter by posing the question, “Why should there be laws of nature if there is no lawgiver?”

“If our minds have been designed, and if the universe has been constructed by God, as the Bible teaches, then of course we should be able to study nature. Science is possible because the Bible is true,” says Lisle.

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#123. To: Feynman Lives! (#116)

Evolution does not necessarily result in a new species, Phaedrus.

"evolution - any change in a population's allele frequencies over time "

Really? Then what good is the "theory"? "Any change" has no meaning because it includes absolutely everything. Real science explains.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:43:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: Feynman Lives! (#121)

No species STRIVES to remain unchanged ...

Well, yes they do, FL. Fruit flies in the laboratory were selectively bred into monsters. When then left to their own reproductive devices, they reverted to normal over successive generations. I would call that STRIVING to remain unchanged.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:47:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: mehitable (#122)

You have made assertions and allegations and inferences about events taking place in an extremely distant past. These are based - just like a caveman's might be - on what you can "imagine" having taken place.

No, Mehitable,

These inferences are based upon the fossil evidence that we have found.

You CAN see it happening today. I SHOWED it to you. Bigger Braincase is the easiest example. However you choose to ignore the facts. I can't help it if you ignore the facts, they still remain FACTS.

What triggers it? Again... Back to the basics: evolution - any change in a population's allele frequencies over time

Genetic mutations trigger it. If those mutations are beneficial, they are passed on to the next generation and potentially exposed to new genetic mutations.

This is why Asians have more eyeskin and people in africa have more melanin. Both are examples of EVOLUTION.

You want this to happen between commercial breaks while you watch your soap operas, but it takes a little longer than that.

Oh, and I never said I was an atheist, you are the one who improperly asserted this.

This IS about FACTS, not FAITH.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:50:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: Phaedrus (#124)

Well, yes they do, FL. Fruit flies in the laboratory were selectively bred into monsters. When then left to their own reproductive devices, they reverted to normal over successive generations. I would call that STRIVING to remain unchanged.

Then you did not understand the mechanism in place.

When left to their own devices they bred out the genetic mutations that were not beneficial to the survival of their species.

They did not STRIVE to remain unchanged. They, in fact, were STRIVING to CHANGE.

Oh, and I have read this study, they did not "revert back to ther original form" they simply bred out the oversized mutation. They never got "back to their orignal form." They were forever changed.

Read the report again.

They STROVE TO CHANGE.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:53:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: Feynman Lives! (#121)

Later, FL -- for the record, you lost the debate.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   17:53:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Phaedrus (#123)

Really? Then what good is the "theory"? "Any change" has no meaning because it includes absolutely everything. Real science explains.

Science does explain it.

Genetic mutations cause the change.

To change the allele of a POPULATION is a remarkable thing.

To have ONE genetic mutation is commonplace, it occurs with every breeding.

To have that mutation survive and be passed on is a process of natural selection.

Science explains this quite nicely.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:55:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Phaedrus (#127)

Later, FL -- for the record, you lost the debate.

ROFLMAO!

Phaedrus, you did not win the debate by a long shot. All you did was keep changing your story and denying the facts.

Nice try, and thanks for playing.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   17:56:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Phaedrus (#124)

Fruit flies in the laboratory were selectively bred into monsters. When then left to their own reproductive devices, they reverted to normal over successive generations.

So a population can be changed by both natural and and artifical selection yet a population cannot change or be changed? That's a tough sell.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   18:00:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: Dakmar (#130)

True, Dakmar.

He PROVES evolution with that statement, and then uses it to try to DISPROVE evolution?

An unusual debate tactic...

LOL

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:01:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Feynman Lives! (#129)

All you did was keep changing your story and denying the facts.

what good is a story if you don't embellish? seriously, you've never embellished a story you told?

and as far as facts go, people shouldn't be such sticklers for facts. I think it is a hang-up myself.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-02-13   18:09:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Red Jones (#132)

LOL Red...

Nice one.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:10:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: Dakmar (#130)

So a population can be changed by both natural and and artifical selection yet a population cannot change or be changed? That's a tough sell.

Selective breeding can push a species to its limit (there ARE actual limits -- dogs have wide ones). This was done with fruit flies. Some were selectively bred with extra legs etc. Most died prematurely and were unable to reproduce. Those that remained and were allowed to continue to reproduce without interference reverted to normal over successive generations. Not so difficult to understand. Fruit flies were, however, never anything but fruit flies.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   18:19:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: Feynman Lives! (#129)

All you did was keep changing your story and denying the facts.

When Evolutionists lose, they accuse the winner of cheating. Been there, done that.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   18:20:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: Phaedrus (#134)

Selective breeding can push a species to its limit (there ARE actual limits -- dogs have wide ones). This was done with fruit flies. Some were selectively bred with extra legs etc. Most died prematurely and were unable to reproduce. Those that remained and were allowed to continue to reproduce without interference reverted to normal over successive generations. Not so difficult to understand. Fruit flies were, however, never anything but fruit flies.

Phaedrus,

What was done with fruit flies was to show that it is possible to force evolutionary changes. What was also shown was that if those forced changes are not beneficial to the species, that ACTUAL EVOLUTION will take care of the problem.

You have PROVED MY POINT.

Nicely played.

Again, Phaedrus, Evolution normally does not result in a brand new species.

You need to learn to read AND comprehend.

I know you don't want to hear that fact, but it remains a fact nonetheless.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:22:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: Phaedrus (#135)

When Evolutionists lose, they accuse the winner of cheating. Been there, done that

Show me again where I lost.

You asked for proof of evolution, I SHOWED YOU PROOF, FACTUAL PROOF.

I asked you for proof of your imaginary friend, you show me NOTHING, because you have NOTHING.

Game, set and match to me.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:23:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: Feynman Lives! (#137)

Show me again where I lost.

The thread speaks for itself. You have only sophistry.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   18:25:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: Phaedrus (#134)

By reverting to a state suited to their environment it was proven that natural selection does occur. Environments do change, you know, or is it a given fact with you that the brontosauri all joined a suicide cult?

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   18:27:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: Phaedrus (#138)

Show me again where I lost. "The thread speaks for itself. You have only sophistry."

A typical response from your kind, Phaedrus.

You have NO facts to support your imaginary friends, so you consequently are forced to deny the facts that are presented by your opposition.

Try to address the topic at hand instead of constantly bobbing and weaving, hoping we don't notice that you have nothing.

You are wearing the emperor's new clothes...

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:28:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#141. To: Dakmar (#139)

is it a given fact with you that the brontosauri all joined a suicide cult?

I believe that every fossil of the brontosaurus was found wearing purple tennis shoes and covered in a satin drape, Dakmar...

LOL!

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:29:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: mehitable, Feynham Lives!, Dakmar, Phaedrus, All (#77)

I think we are arguing semantics here.

That's a good point, mehitable, because when I say evolve I mean advance, progress, mature....and a better word for religion is creation....this is the reason I don't see the belief in creationism and evolution as mutually exclusive but, rather, cohesive.

"It's an Inside Job"

christine  posted on  2006-02-13   18:31:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: christine (#142)

I would agree with you, Christine. A belief in one does not preclude the other.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:34:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#144. To: All (#143)

Hey, how do you get those little quotes in all your threads?

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:35:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: christine, mehitable (#142)

this is the reason I don't see the belief in creationism and evolution as mutually exclusive but, rather, cohesive

I agree with mehitable on this in that I don't care too much one way or the other, but I'm terrified of the type of people who want to build prisons for anyone who thinks the Earth is more that 6000 years old and denies the notion that Noah used to scoop up baby dinosaurs and wheel them onto the ark in a baby carriage. Well, not terrified, but getting there.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   18:36:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#146. To: Feynman Lives! (#144)

Go to set-up and there you can include a tagline.. which can be a jpg ..

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-13   18:37:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: Dakmar (#145)

denies the notion that Noah used to scoop up baby dinosaurs and wheel them onto the ark in a baby carriage

LOL!! Dak you DO have a way with words .. !

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-13   18:38:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#148. To: Zipporah (#146)

KEWL...

Thanks, Zipporah.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:38:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#149. To: Feynman Lives! (#144)

Hey, how do you get those little quotes in all your threads?

Click on "setup" at the very top or bottom of each page, there's a place for "tagline". It's best if you make it a smaller font:

[font size="-1"]message[/font]only replace the square brackets with less than/greater than signs, my doing so would have made an HTML instruction, thus obliterating any useful information.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   18:41:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: Dakmar (#149)

Maybe you shouldve told him to use font size 15?

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-13   18:42:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#151. To: Feynman Lives! (#148)

Go to set-up and there you can include a tagline.. which can be a jpg ..

or a song link, like mine.

"It's an Inside Job"

christine  posted on  2006-02-13   18:44:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#152. To: Zipporah (#150)

Like the boss used to say, "We could, but it would be wrong".

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   18:45:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: Dakmar (#139)

By reverting to a state suited to their environment it was proven that natural selection does occur.

That's not what happened. They reverted to their normal form, had nothing to do with the environment. And "natural selection" is a misleading phrase. The passive environment does not select, it just is.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   18:48:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#154. To: Dakmar (#152)

I got a denial .. I guess I'm not worthy to see the boss.. :P

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-13   18:50:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#155. To: Phaedrus (#153)

They reverted to their normal form,

No, they had become "monsters", as you put it. They were born that way, so that was normal for those individuals.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   18:50:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#156. To: Feynman Lives! (#140)

You have NO facts to support your imaginary friends, so you consequently are forced to deny the facts that are presented by your opposition.

Anyone who reads the thread will see that you are mischaracterizing, making it up. You're the one in denial.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   18:50:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#157. To: Phaedrus (#153)

That's not what happened. They reverted to their normal form, had nothing to do with the environment. And "natural selection" is a misleading phrase. The passive environment does not select, it just is.

Phaedrus,

You are simply NOT looking at the facts. Re-read the report, or ACTUALLY read it if you have not.

They were EVOLVED into giant fruit flies, and that size increase did not suit the survival of their species, so they CONTINUED to evolve back to a smaller size.

They did not, I repeat: DID NOT, revert back to what you misguidedly call "their normal form" at all. They simply grew smaller. Genetically, they had continued to evolve and were MARKEDLY different from their predecessors.

[Font Size = 1] "There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." Richard Feynman

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:51:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#158. To: Dakmar (#155)

No, they had become "monsters", as you put it. They were born that way, so that was normal for those individuals.

You're playing word games, in which I'm not much interested.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   18:52:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: Zipporah (#154)

I've been getting that a lot lately, weird, I usually just try again and stuff works. Oh well, it was nothing Earth shattering at any rate.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   18:52:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: Feynman Lives! (#157)

You are simply NOT looking at the facts. Re-read the ...

Yadda Yadda, just nonsense and shouting.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   18:53:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#161. To: Phaedrus (#158)

You're playing word games, in which I'm not much interested.

That's all you've been doing.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   18:53:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: Phaedrus (#160)

Yadda Yadda, just nonsense and shouting.

Phaedrus,

Have you even READ the studys that you are talking about, cuz I have.

Once again, you use PROOF of evolution to deny that evolution takes place.

It is humorous.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." Richard Feynman

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   18:54:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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