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Science/Tech
See other Science/Tech Articles

Title: Creationists: can they be scientists? You bet!
Source: Answers In Genesis
URL Source: http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/wow/preview/part9.asp
Published: Feb 11, 2006
Author: Pam S. Sheppard
Post Date: 2006-02-11 17:02:42 by A K A Stone
Keywords: Creationists:, scientists?, they
Views: 2343
Comments: 382

As an astrophysicist, Dr. Jason Lisle (author of chapters 5, 6, and 10 of War of the Worldviews) knows that a belief in molecules-to-man evolution is not needed to understand how planets orbit the sun or how telescopes operate. While some evolutionists are spreading the false idea that creationists can’t be real scientists, Lisle is busy doing real science.

In fact, he (along with hundreds of other scientists) knows that science works perfectly well without any connection to evolution. Dr. David Menton, cell biologist and popular AiG speaker and writer, has often said that although it is widely believed, “evolution contributes nothing to our understanding of empirical science and thus plays no essential role in biomedical research or education.”

As Lisle points out in this chapter, even the rise of technology is not due to a belief in evolution. He writes, “Computers, cellular phones and DVD players all operate based on the laws of physics, which God created. It is because God created a logical, orderly universe and gave us the ability to reason and to be creative that technology is possible.”

So, why are there such differences between evolutionary scientists and creation scientists if both groups have the same evidence? Lisle addresses these differing conclusions by explaining that each group starts with different assumptions when interpreting evidence. Creationists and evolutionists have a different view of history, but the way they do science in the present is the same.

Lisle writes that both creationists and evolutionists use observation and experimentation to draw conclusions about nature. Since observational scientific theories are capable of being tested in the present, creationists and evolutionists generally agree on these models. For instance, they agree on the nature of gravity, the composition of stars, the speed of light in a vacuum, the size of the solar system, etc.

On the other hand, historical events cannot be checked scientifically in the present. We don’t have access to the past. As Lisle points out, we can make educated guesses about the past and can make inferences from fossils and rocks, but we cannot directly test our conclusions because past events cannot be repeated.

With evolutionists and creationists having such different views of history, is it any wonder that each group arrives at such varying interpretations? Biblical creationists accept the recorded history of the Bible as their starting point while evolutionists reject this recorded history and have made up their own pseudo-history from which to interpret evidence, Lisle explains.

The fact that there are scientists who believe in biblical creation is nothing new. In this chapter, Lisle discusses several “real” scientists who believe in the Genesis account of creation, including Isaac Newton (1642–1727), who co-discovered calculus, formulated the laws of motion and gravity, and computed the nature of planetary orbits, among other things.

Today, there are many Ph.D. scientists who reject evolution and believe that God created in six days, a few thousand years ago, as recorded in Scripture. As Lisle points out, his Ph.D. research (which was completed at a secular university) was not hindered by the conviction that the early chapters of Genesis are literally true. In fact, it’s just the reverse, he writes.

“It is because a logical God created and ordered the universe that I, and other creationists, expect to be able to understand aspects of that universe through logic, careful observation and experimentation,” Lisle explains.

Lisle concludes the chapter by posing the question, “Why should there be laws of nature if there is no lawgiver?”

“If our minds have been designed, and if the universe has been constructed by God, as the Bible teaches, then of course we should be able to study nature. Science is possible because the Bible is true,” says Lisle.

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#52. To: Feynman Lives! (#50)

My position is that you didn't understand Charles Fort's work.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   15:24:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: mehitable (#52)

Fort is considered by many as the father of modern paranormalism, not only because of his interest in strange phenomena, but because of his "modern" attitude towards religion, 19th century spiritualism, and scientific dogma. As a writer Fort was highly stylistic, blending passion and poetry, and his books are littered with quotes full of humor and insight.

My favorite quote of his is "If there is a universal mind, must it be sane?"

I understand his work just fine, Mehitable...

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   15:30:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Feynman Lives! (#35)

Whenever I run into someone such as yourself that attempts to bowl me over with lots of volume in the debate over Evolution, I find it worthwhile to parse their post. You are being so honored. Your post is in italics.

I never stated that the scientific theory of evolution has answered 100% of the questions in the universe.

Nor did I characterize your position as such.

Evolution is also one of the most misunderstood and controversial concepts in the eyes of the general public.

So you assert. I don’t think so.

This situation is unfortunate, because the controversy surrounding evolution is unnecessary.

No, it’s not; i.e. the controversy is absolutely necessary.

Resistance to evolution stems in part from misunderstanding science and how it is distinct from religion.

Does it? Maybe.

Science and religion provide different ways of knowing the Earth and universe. Science proceeds by testing hypotheses and thus is restricted to natural, testable explanations. By definition, science is unable to confirm or deny the existence or work of a Creator; such questions are beyond the realm of science. As a scientific concept, evolution therefore can make no reference to a Creator.

To be clear, my quarrel with Evolution is that its hypotheses are unsupported, are in fact contradicted, by the evidence. It does not stem from my knowledge of (not belief in) a Creator.

Many people of faith, including scientists, find no conflict between evolution and their religion; in fact, many religious denominations have issued statements supporting evolution.

So what? I would say they’re misled and, again, my position does not rely on the authority of the Bible or any Christian denomination.

Science and religion need not conflict.

Evolution and Christianity are in inherent conflict to the extent that Evolution is Materialist, which is by definition Atheist.

Numerous lines of evidence show that life has changed through time.

“Change” is extremely vague and is not adequate to show the evolution of one species into another. And what is the mechanism of change? Where is the evidence that ANY specific species has evolved into another. Among million (s) of species, where are the transitional forms? Science explains, it doesn’t speculate.

Evolution is the best scientific explanation for this change.

WHAT change and WHAT explanation?

Individuals change throughout their lifetimes; they grow, receive injuries, color their hair, or pierce their eyebrows. These changes are not evolutionary, because they cannot be inherited by the next generation. The changes are lost when the individual possessing them dies. Individuals do not evolve, only populations evolve.

If it’s not evolution, why discuss it?

Species evolve over successive generations as their local populations interbreed and change.

You are asserting it. You have not shown it.

The biological definition of a species embodies this concept: a species is a group of naturally occurring populations that can interbreed and produce offspring that can interbreed. This point is very important: species always consist of changing and interbreeding populations. There never was a [f] irst ‘saber-toothed cat,’ ‘first mastodon,’ or ‘first dinosaur.’ Instead, there was a first population of interbreeding individuals that we call ‘saber- toothed cats,’ or ‘mastodons,’ or ‘dinosaurs.’

A “first population”? So, did you will them into being? That is not science, that’s supposition.

At any given time in the past, members of populations of a species were capable of interbreeding. In Darwin’s time, the nature of inheritance and the cause of variation were very poorly understood. The scientific understanding of heredity began with the work of Gregor Mendel in the 1860s in Brno, Czech Republic. This understanding accelerated throughout the 20th century and now includes knowledge of chromosomes, genes, and DNA with its double helix. Evolution could not occur without genetic variation.

Well, OK, but so what?

The ultimate source of variation can now be understood as changes or mutations in the sequence of the building blocks of the genetic material carried on the chromosomes in eggs and sperm.

Ah, the crux of the matter -- it is a fact that mutation has not been shown to result in new species. That is pure conjecture on your part, speculation. The evidence is that mutations are destructive of genetic information, not creative.

I am not sure if you are unaware but there have been MANY studies thatsshow how evolution has occurred in lab conditions. For example: -Adaptation to High and Low Temperatures by E. coli. -Adaptation to Growth in the Dark by Chlamydomonas. -Selection for Large Size in Chlamydomomas. -Adaptation to a Low Phosphate Chemostat Environment by a Clonal Line of Yeast. -Evolution of a new enzymatic function by recombination within a gene. -Changes in the substrate specificities of an enzyme during directed evolution of new functions. -Changes in the substrate specificities of an enzyme during directed evolution of new functions.

It is well-known that species exhibit genetic variation within sometime broad boundaries (dogs) while maintaining their species integrity. It has NEVER been shown that one species evolves into another, either in nature or in the lab. The operative word is shown

And so on …

You have not established anything but that Evolution succeeds in explaining nothing.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   15:51:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Phaedrus (#54)

Many people of faith, including scientists, find no conflict between evolution and their religion; in fact, many religious denominations have issued statements supporting evolution.

"So what? I would say they’re misled and, again, my position does not rely on the authority of the Bible or any Christian denomination."

So, you disagree with Christine?

Interesting.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   15:55:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Feynman Lives! (#55)

So, you disagree with Christine?

Interesting.

Try to stay with the debate instead of changing the subject, unless of course you are aware that you're losing it.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   15:56:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Feynman Lives! (#53)

Apparently you don't. What Fort did was collect VAST amounts of data of extremely unusual or bizarre anomalies, such as rains of unusual substances or creatures, that did not fit into what was then (and now) thought of as scientifically possible. Science usually focuses on (or accepts) only phenomena that occur (or re-occur) in a regular pattern, thus anomalies usually remain scientific orphans, although they may be perfectly valid phenomena. They just don't fit into observable patterns. Sometimes a phenomena may be a one time event or something that happens every 50,000 years - but it's still valid.

Fort was not a satirist although he frequently had a wry tone. To call him a satirist is to belittle his work, and to imply that he did not believe in what he was doing and was creating a work of fiction. He was ultimately a collector of inconvenient facts that developers of "theories" ignore as the actual "facts" don't fit into their theories. He didn't know what the explanations of these pheneomona were (just as I don't), nor did he pretend to. What he knew was that the existence of these phenomena were either derided, just as you've done, or ignored, BECAUSE they didn't fit into current ideas, theories or methods of scientists.

Fort was not a satirist - he was just anti-DOGMA - a condition that can afflict science as easily as religion.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   15:57:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Phaedrus, all (#54)

It is well-known that species exhibit genetic variation within sometime broad boundaries (dogs) while maintaining their species integrity. It has NEVER been shown that one species evolves into another, either in nature or in the lab.

This assertion is correct. It has never - unless someone can show me now - been shown that one species evolves into another. What evolutionists proffer as proof of evolution consists of changes - however dramatic - within ONE species. A dog is a dog is a dog. A flower is a flower is a flower. I don't think dogs will ever mutate into flowers or vice versa. To the best my knowledge it has NEVER been shown that one species has ever evolved into another.

So how did everything come into being - through what mechanism? Something I believe God created, but exactly how? I have no idea and neither does any one else.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:01:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: mehitable (#58)

Do you think dogs, wolves, foxes, and hyenas all descended from a common ancestor?

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:05:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Feynman Lives! (#55)

Now, you see, you have engaged in lengthy sophistry but you have not addressed any of the requests for evidence or substative objections I've raised to the so-called theory of Evolution as science.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:08:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: mehitable (#58)

... through what mechanism?

You will not EVER get a solid, straight, supportable answer to this question from an Evolutionist.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:11:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Dakmar (#59)

Possibly - but do they all have a common ancestor with a squid? I don't know? Is evolution on-going? I see no evidence of it, nor has anyone ever presented any evidence that it is on-going - but maybe evolution itself was an anomaly. I don't know.

But that's my whole point. NO ONE KNOWS. Evolution is a theory with a lot of big holes in it. Just like other theories that might be out there. And as long as they can be coherently explained, they should all be considered. People can review, interpret, or accept them as they will.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:13:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Phaedrus (#54)

Species evolve over successive generations as their local populations interbreed and change.

"You are asserting it. You have not shown it." "it is a fact that mutation has not been shown to result in new species."

I showed you were evolution HAS occured in the lab. From one species into a completely NEW species. You choose not to acknowledge it. Hey, that is your choice, but it does not discount that it has been demonstrated.

Sure being able to show evolution in a lab is not as impressive to those who don't understand science, but it DOES show evolution in action.

It seems that you wont be satisfied until you personally witness something incredibly complex, like a dog, evolve into a winged monkey.

It is fine to be skeptical, but to discount that which is in front of you because you don't want to believe it... well, that is just ignorance.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:13:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: mehitable (#58)

Something I believe God created, but exactly how?

Ok... so what created god? God can't create himself.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:15:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Phaedrus (#61)

Oh, believe me, I know. I've been ring around the roses with evolutionists dozens of times and their reasoning is always circular. "Well...it JUST IS. Where ELSE could anything come from??????? Don't you see how that flower developed a 6th PETAL - that's evolution"...blah blah.

They don't understand the mechanism, it has large, glaring holes in it - which is fine with me. I just don't want to see it presented as the last and final word, which is exactly how its advocates DO present it. It is Scientific Dogma and that stops thought and debate.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:15:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Feynman Lives! (#64)

I don't know. And that actually is the...CORRECT answer. You don't know either. No one KNOWS.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:16:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: Dakmar (#59)

Do you think dogs, wolves, foxes, and hyenas all descended from a common ancestor?

Actually, yes... dogs and wolves did decend from a common ancestor.

Good point.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:18:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: mehitable (#66)

I don't know. And that actually is the...CORRECT answer.

Yep.

But you can't then say that you have any evidence that god actually exists, where as you CAN say that there is evidence to support evolution.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:19:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Feynman Lives!, all (#63)

I showed you were evolution HAS occured in the lab. From one species into a completely NEW species.

The problem is obviously how you define the word "species". Some plant changing color or growing another petal doesn't really equate "species" in the real world. That's the kind of evolutionary proof that I see scientists pushing - some change, however dramatic in one species that obviously does not change it into another species. It's still a plant. Until you can show those missing links, you don't have a demonstrable mechanism.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:19:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: mehitable (#65)

Don't you see how that flower developed a 6th PETAL - that's evolution

Mehitable,

You just pointed out how evolution works and then you denied it.

Interesting...

And you said that I stopped debate...

LOL

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:21:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: mehitable (#62)

Possibly - but do they all have a common ancestor with a squid? I don't know? Is evolution on-going? I see no evidence of it, nor has anyone ever presented any evidence that it is on-going - but maybe evolution itself was an anomaly. I don't know.

Go back far enough and they do. But simply having a common ancestor at all would be proof of evolution.

I'm of the opinion that evolution as it now stands may not hold all the answers, but it seems more likely to be correct than any other theory out there.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:21:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Feynman Lives! (#63)

I showed you were evolution HAS occured in the lab. From one species into a completely NEW species. You choose not to acknowledge it. Hey, that is your choice, but it does not discount that it has been demonstrated.

I don't buy it. Show us all again, slowly and clearly, and explain what is meant by "species". Thank you.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:23:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: mehitable (#69)

Some plant changing color or growing another petal doesn't really equate "species" in the real world.

Again, you show proof of evolution and then say that it does not count.

Quite humorous...

It shows how little you understand about the topic.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:24:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Dakmar (#71)

That's fine - my objection is not inherently to the theory of evolution. As I said initially, I don't really care how we got here. My objection is to the imposition of a dogma which shuts down all other possibilities or modes of thought. This dogmatic manner of thinking is as common in science as it is in other realms of life, including religion, but it's particularly onerous in science as science purports to be objective and dispassionate and lacking in "belief" systems. I have found that's simply not true. Look at the debate over global warming, just to give another example.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:25:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Feynman Lives! (#63)

Sure being able to show evolution in a lab is not as impressive to those who don't understand science, but it DOES show evolution in action.

Would you kindly get off this offensive "don't understand science"? I'm not quite yet prepared to allow you to occupy your own self-created position of authority.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:28:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: mehitable (#62)

Is evolution on-going? I see no evidence of it, nor has anyone ever presented any evidence that it is on-going - but maybe evolution itself was an anomaly. I don't know.

I have presented you with AMPLE evidence of evolution, you just choose to ignore it.

Evolution is a continual process.

Dogs from wolves and there is plenty of proof of that to show you, but you poo- poo it saying that it is just a "plant that grew an extra petal."

So, if you choose to ignore the facts, then why are we bothering trying to explain things to you?

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:28:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Feynman Lives!, all (#73)

I think we are arguing semantics here. Obviously your little change in a plant is technically an evolution -meaning CHANGE - in the plant. A development. However, it does not demonstrate how that plant became an animal. Or how anything else became something completely different from what it is. We have not found any missing links. A dog is a dog is a dog. A plant is a plant is a plant. A brontosaurus is a bronto is a bronto - or maybe lizard might be more correct.

Just because you cannot imagine any other mechanism for the creation of current species on earth other than everything evolving from some "lower" form of life, does not mean that another mechanism does not or did not exist.

You still have not explained the mechanism for developing unique species such as dogs, camelias and brontosauruses because you DON"T KNOW IT. At least I am honest enough to say I don't know.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:28:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: mehitable (#69)

The problem is obviously how you define the word "species".

That's exactly where I expect him to go, to definitions.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:29:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: mehitable (#74)

I don't see scientists burning down churches and locking up those with whom they disagree, so I'm not concerned with what they believe. There is an orthodoxy in any field of study, but a good scientist tries to keep above the fray. Most bad science - and I almost said all, but there are a few real jackasses out there - is politically motivated. Almost all organised religion is politically motivated, so it comes down you a question of "who are you going to trust?" for me.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:32:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Feynman Lives! (#68)

But you can't then say that you have any evidence that god actually exists, where as you CAN say that there is evidence to support evolution.

You are so wrong.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:32:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Feynman Lives! (#76)

Dogs from wolves

It is obvious that a dog is merely a form of wolf that has been bred for various characteristics for generations. Now tell me how that wolf evolved from a velociraptor or some such creature, and you have something. There is no great disimilarity between a dog and a wolfe. We can all see this.

You are expanding development from an obviously related animal into a theory that postulates development from obviously UNRELATED animals without any proof of this. There are no missing links. This dog/wolf argument of yours is meaningless. Where did the wolf come from? Or the prototype of the wolf? or the creature before that? What is the mechanism? You DON'T KNOW THAT. NO ONE DOES.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:32:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Feynman Lives! (#64)

Ok... so what created god? God can't create himself.

How could you, a mere human being, possibly know?

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:34:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: All (#81)

More simply - if mankind developed from some lower order primate in a not too distant past, why do we see no evidence of other lower order primates evolving into some higher order resembling man? Did this process simply stop? Do you think it was a one time thing, or is it on-going?

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:34:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: mehitable (#83)

More simply - if mankind developed from some lower order primate in a not too distant past, why do we see no evidence of other lower order primates evolving into some higher order resembling man?

We do - they were called Neanderthals.

We've been challenged, and we've risen to those challenges. We've climbed the mighty mountain. I see the valley below, and it's a valley of peace. - W

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-13   16:36:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Dakmar, all (#84)

Actually that's not the point I was making. The point I was making is why have we - in 5000 years of observation (I do not consider our ancestors totally moronic even without the observations of Feyniman Lives) - not seen any evolution of lower order primates such as chimps, baboons, gorillas - whatever - into a different or higher order. As far as I know, something that was a chimp 50k or 500k years ago is still a chimp today. So has this process stopped? Was it a one time thing? Apparently it is not on-going or we would still be observing it today.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Feynman Lives! (#76)

... why are we bothering trying to explain things to you?

What snide arrogance. Let me see your badge.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-13   16:40:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: mehitable (#77)

Just because you cannot imagine any other mechanism for the creation of current species on earth other than everything evolving from some "lower" form of life, does not mean that another mechanism does not or did not exist.

An just because you can, and it deals with an imagnary friend, does not mean that it DOES.

EVOLUTION - ANY change in a population's allele frequencies over time.

The mechanism for change in development of unique species has already been explained. Scientists have shown that beneficial mutations do occur to produce brand new alleles (variants of genes) that improve an organism's chances of survival in a particular environment.

1. All organisms produce far more offspring than can survive to adulthood and reproduce. This means that many of those offspring will die without reproduction.
2. Organisms vary in many ways, and much of that variation is heritable - that is, variations that exist in the parents are passed on to the offspring.
3. Some of those heritable, variable traits affect an organism's fitness - its ability to survive to reproductive maturity.
4. Those traits that increase an organism's fitness will tend to be passed on to the organism's offspring and to subsequent generations.

Now, I am glad that you are honest enough to say that you don't know, because it is clear that you do not.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:40:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Phaedrus (#82)

How could you, a mere human being, possibly know?

And how could you, a mere human being, possibly know otherwise?

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:41:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Phaedrus (#80)

But you can't then say that you have any evidence that god actually exists, where as you CAN say that there is evidence to support evolution.

You are so wrong.

Please, Phaedrus,

Show me FACTS that support your belief in your imaginary friend.

Not circumstantial evidence or whistful theories, actual FACTS.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-13   16:42:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Phaedrus (#86)

I see that one trait that hasn't evolved among evolutionists is humility, lol.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:43:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Feynman Lives! (#89)

Show me FACTS that support your belief in your imaginary friend.

Are you an atheist?

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-13   16:44:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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