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Religion
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Title: Can Christ Followers Save The World From Christians
Source: We Hold These Truths
URL Source: http://www.whtt.org/index.php?news=2&id=709
Published: Feb 6, 2006
Author: Charles E. Carlson
Post Date: 2006-02-15 00:09:52 by Red Jones
Keywords: Christians, Followers, Christ
Views: 4373
Comments: 491

Can Christ Followers save the world from Christians

Charles E. Carlson Feb 06, 2006

Why all the bad news?

The news stories in the world press, from South Africa to Norway, are incredibly negative about the USA. It was not always that way. Once, not long ago, most press was good to the USA. Our generations of military and tourists have been treated like liberators in Germany and Japan, countries we helped to destroy and then rebuilt. But no more, “America” is mud.

This letter is not for everyone. Some already recognize the answer, but many still deny that the USA has become both the awful predator, and the world’s engine of monetary dilution. Less anyone thinks this writer is causing America’s image problem we add these words from a pretty good President, Theodore Roosevelt, who was also a decorated military officer:

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President or any other public official, save to the extent in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country.”

"In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth - whether about the president or anyone else - save in the rare case where this would make known to the enemy information of military value which would otherwise be unknown to him." -Theodore Roosevelt

Jesus gave us parables to help us understand his lessons. We follow his example with a parable about a man and the pet he loves and think he controls, which we liken to our government.

This man discovers, to his horror and dismay, that his family dog has become a nighttime marauder, a predator, slipping out of the yard and pillaging the community, killing other pets and threatening pedestrians, and then jumping back into the backyard to sleep it off. What should the man do: 1) Feed the dog more and hope he will stay home? 2) Build a higher fence, cement-in the yard and put double locks on every access? (3) Ignore the problem? (4) Put the dog to sleep before someone is hurt?

The pet owner could try the second choice (2), if he has the patience and money, but chances are he will not sleep well at night. It is his responsibility to stop the crimes, even if it means he has to destroy his own dog. It is not up to the police to solve the crime, nor is it up to the neighbors to correct it. In truth, he should do it himself because he is responsible, not the taxpayers who pay for the animal shelter.

Similarly, it is up to the most responsible Americans to correct criminal acts against its world neighbors, and if we do not then the blood of the USA’s every crime is on our hands. It is not good enough to say, "Oh, this is a great place to live...our standard of living is the envy of the world...even if we do make some mistakes."

It is not our place to recite all the wrongs of our government, we would never finish, nor do we defend any other government for it murderous faults. All are corrupt to some degree. We do defend the right to life of our neighbors, as described in our own Declaration of Independence. Life itself is a gift from God...this is not (for followers of Christ) a subjective, take it or leave it observation, it is an absolute.

A friend and supporter recently called to ask me if I might tone down what he considered my obvious favoritism toward the Palestinian people, whom we have come to call the Philistines. He told me I sound so biased that someone who did not know me might think "they are paying me." In fact, it is people like my caller who is supporting We Hold These Truths, so we listen.

My reply was: Thanks, but I cannot help what I say or the passion that shows through. I have been to the land of the Philistines and seen. Now I am their champion as long as they are suppressed by our own government.

Our government is the marauding dog. I told my friend I would try to do a better job of explaining my bias, but I must not stop defending the innocent blood that is being shed. This is not to say the Philistines, or their current leaders, Hamas, are perfect, nor to deny they have their criminal element, which they do have. I told a beleaguered Univerisity class the same thing when I stood among them in Gaza City, but it is our government. not theirs, that is the problem.

I have but one point to make. God does not “Will” that this great land become the predator of the world. He expects us to be the good stewards of what we are given. We can stop the marauding animal in our back yards if we will allow God to help us. And, if God does not help us, we need not worry about it, for it should now be obvious to most that we cannot overcome the mass of evil power loosed on the world by our own strength alone.

Our “predator” inside our gates has become a "King Kong behemoth. We can succeed only if we do it God’s way, else we will fail. Abraham Lincoln may have later broken his own rules, but he was dead right when he stated in 1848:

“Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better.”

It seem logical thta God's way is to correct His followers

As we have said over and over again and say now, the self-styled Christian Zionist churches, with some 70 million under their influence, are the logical answer.

We call them Scofieldized churches, others call them Dispensational, or lately Christian Zionists, whatever name you call them, they are the enablers of the monster on the loose in the world. It is Scofieldized churches that feed it; it is they who left the gate ajar at night, and they taught the marauder to vault the highest fence. They hatched a logic and theology that enables ethnic cleansing in the Mideast. Only the Scofieldized church, among all the major religions in the world, believes the acts of the nighttime marauder are Godly, and therefore, encourages it.

In America the members of the Scofieldized churchs are the salt of the earth, the good neighbors we all want, the famliy poeple who care, but they are horrible and criminaly misled and they must be salvaged from God professors to Jesus Christ's followers.

Scofildized Christian Zionists simply refuse to see the blood and torn bodies of victims. One of the Ten Commandments that God is said to have given to Moses is:

"You shall not [no, never] take the name of the Lord your God in vain."

This is exactly what the Scofieldized churches do today by supporting in God’s name that which God abhors, the spilling of innocent blood. Each one allows the abuses that Jesus denied and decried. He said to the Pharisees,

"you will not enter into heaven, and you block the way of anyone who would enter."

Jesus could have been speaking to the pastors today.

What is needed is men who will use any tactic that is legal, moral and Godly to reach into the evangelical church and paint the blood of the victims on its doorways where they cannot overlook it. This is the mission of Pharisee Watch and Project Strait Gate. And how do we achieve such a feat?

God’s churches, if they are of God, should be the salt of the earth, but these millions have lost their savor, and therefore, are:

"fit only to be trodden under the feet of men."

But they can change…most of We Hold These Truth's advisors did. Each Christian Zionist at some point lost his senses in the shouting crowd; they will regain their senses slowly, one by one, church by church…with our/your help. This is our agenda.

Start by watching our one hour presentation, with your friends, right on your computer, or you may buy it for your TV: Our best tool to help you teach, view it free: Why Christian-Zionist cannot work for peace, Interactive fully guided free audio/video.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 326.

#1. To: Red Jones (#0)

JESUS CHRIST ANNOUNCES THAT HE IS NOT COMING BACK!

-WORLD NEWS-

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whose return has been eagerly awaited by Christians for two millennia, is never coming back to earth, the Messiah himself announced today.

The Lord issued a surprisingly bitter statement to His followers explaining His decision. A transcript of that statement follows.

FINAL MESSAGE TO HUMANITY

To My followers:

When I made My promise to return to the world and deliver you from evil, I fully intended to keep that promise. Sadly, however, humanity has made Me change My mind. You're not worth redeeming. I'm washing My hands of this disastrous experiment in intelligent life and free will.

I was hoping you'd make some progress since the days when the Romans persecuted the Jews. But nothing has changed. You all still hate each other. You don't do much to feed the hungry, or shelter the homeless, or any of that other shit I told you to do. Why do you even pretend to care about My will? Why do you pray and sing hymns and read the Bible? Is it all just a charade to make you feel better about yourselves?

Never mind. I know the answer to that.

I've learned to hate your species for so many reasons. I can't stand your constant whining about your petty problems. I hate the way you adopt new slang words and catch phrases to try to 'out-hip' each other. I despise your bad table manners. Child pornography also kind of irks Me.

From now on, I'm going to concentrate on other intelligent life forms. Or maybe Dad and I will start a whole new Creation.

Before I do that, though, I want to share just a few of the reasons why you piss Me off. I mean, there are the obvious things, like violence and greed, but that's not what really gets Me.

What really gets Me are the little things. Like the stupid ways you pretend to believe in Me. Christian rock. Tattoos with My name on them. And don't even get Me started on those fucking T-shirts.

When you're not doing trivial things to show your devotion to Me, you're getting all bent out of shape over something pointless. Take 'animal rights.' My dad put animals on the planet to serve humanity. He gave you an enormous variety of creatures to do your work, to serve as your companions, and for you to eat. So now you've decided they have rights? And you attack people to defend those rights? Your ability to invent problems for yourselves never ceases to amaze Me.

I think I could forgive your sins if you were going somewhere culturally. You really had something going back there in the Renaissance. But then you just ran out of creative steam. I realize it gets harder and harder to think of anything original...but paintings of soup cans? That was a few decades ago; nowadays it's even worse. Someone throws crap at a wall and you act like it's profound.

Another thing that makes Me mad are all the bullshit religious myths. Stigmatas, for example. Only one person got a real stigmata, and that's Me. The whole stigmata phenomenon just goes to show that you people can't stand letting someone else get all the attention.

You've got all this nonsense occupying your thoughts when you should be concentrating on more important things. Like not destroying the world, for example. In case you haven't noticed, greenhouse gases are threatening to make the planet uninhabitable, and the kooks of the world are starting to get their hands on nuclear weapons. Guess you can't be bothered with that when American Idol is on.

Think I'm going to save you from self-annihilation? Think again. When you obliterate yourselves, don't come crying to Me.

Yours truly,

Jesus Christ Office of Redemption and Salvation

P.S. I want My shroud back.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   0:38:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Feynman Lives!, All (#1)

It kinda disgusts me when Christianity, which just happens to be the foundation of our way of life, of Western Science and Civiliation, is ridiculed and attacked. Some modicum of respect would seem due.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-15   14:08:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Phaedrus (#3)

It kinda disgusts me when Christianity, which just happens to be the foundation of our way of life, of Western Science and Civiliation, is ridiculed and attacked. Some modicum of respect would seem due.

Phaedrus,

"The foundation of our way of life?"

Whose way of life would that be? America was not founded on Christianity. If you mistakenly think that it was, perhaps you need to look at the Constitution and study more about the people who wrote the document.

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear."


-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

"The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills."
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Well... LOOKEE THERE... one of our FOUNDING FATHERS agrees not with you... but with me.

Such extremists like you try mistakenly to claim that U.S. law has religious roots. Yet the Constitution contains NO REFERENCE to a deity.

The Declaration of Independence contains NOT ONE WORD on religion, basing its authority on the shocking idea that power is derived from ordinary people, which challenged European traditions of rule by divine right and/or heavenly authority. (Remember, George III was king of England and anointed head of its church.)

The words “Nature’s God,” the “Creator” and “divine Providence ” do appear in the Declaration. But in its context — an era, and author, Thomas Jefferson, that celebrated science and the Enlightenment — these words are analogous to our contemporary phrase “life force.”

Jerry Falwell notoriously blamed 9/11 on “pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays and lesbians … [and other groups] who have tried to secularize America.”

He’s a bit late: In 1798, Alexander Hamilton accused Jefferson of a “conspiracy to establish atheism on the ruins of Christianity” in the new republic. Deputy Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence William Boykin thunders, “We’re a Christian nation.”

But the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams — proclaims: “The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian Religion.”

Let's all say that together, shall we?

THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED NO THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION.

Imagine that.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   14:31:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: All (#6)

THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED NO THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION

LOL...

Sorry about the misquote...

"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION."

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   14:37:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Feynman Lives! (#7)

It kinda disgusts me when Christianity, which just happens to be the foundation of our way of life, of Western Science and Civiliation, is ridiculed and attacked. Some modicum of respect would seem due.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-15   14:50:57 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Phaedrus (#8)

It kinda disgusts me when Christianity, which just happens to be the foundation of our way of life, of Western Science and Civiliation, is ridiculed and attacked. Some modicum of respect would seem due.

Phaedrus,

Sorry to be the one to break the TRUTH to you, but Christianity IS NOT the foundation of our way of life.

From our first president, this is shown to be the case.

The false image of Washington as a devout Christian was fabricated by Mason Locke Weems, a clergyman who also invented the cherry-tree fable and in 1800 published his Life of George Washington. Washington, a Deist and a Freemason, never even ONCE mentioned the name of Jesus Christ in any of his thousands of letters, and pointedly referred to divinity as “It.”

Whenever he (rarely) attended church, Washington always deliberately left before communion, demonstrating disbelief in Christianity’s central ceremony.

It’s also a commonly stated error that U.S. law, based on English common law, is thus grounded in Judeo-Christian tradition.

Yet Jefferson (writing to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814 ) noted that common law “is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England …about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century. …We may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.”

Again, Phaedrus, sorry to burst your bubble and all, but you needed to be told.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   14:56:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Feynman Lives! (#9)

The situation is actually worse from your "point-of-view": All of Western Civilization is founded upon Christianity, which is not news to most of us. You would like to rewrite history, I'm sure.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-15   15:09:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Phaedrus (#11)

Phaedrus,

You might want to consider, before you make a bigger fool of yourself, that Greece is considered the foundation of western civilization because their art, philosophy, science, political ideas etc went on to spread throughout Europe and many places around the globe. Now, the Greeks did not wake up one day and say, "why don't we create western civilization," but they sure as hell WEREN'T christians.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   15:24:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Feynman Lives! (#13)

It kinda disgusts me when Christianity, which just happens to be the foundation of our way of life, of Western Science and Civiliation, is ridiculed and attacked. Some modicum of respect would seem due.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-15   15:25:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Phaedrus (#14)

It kinda disgusts me when Christianity, which just happens to be the foundation of our way of life, of Western Science and Civiliation, is ridiculed and attacked. Some modicum of respect would seem due

Phaedrus,

I see that you have NOTHING substantive to offer in your defense of your mythological beliefs...

So, I will RESTATE this for you, as it applies to the central point of your myth.

You might want to consider, before you make a bigger fool of yourself, that Greece is considered the foundation of western civilization because their art, philosophy, science, political ideas etc went on to spread throughout Europe and many places around the globe. Now, the Greeks did not wake up one day and say, "why don't we create western civilization," but they sure as hell WEREN'T christians.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   15:59:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Feynman Lives! (#15)

You might want to consider, before you make a bigger fool of yourself, that Greece is considered the foundation of western civilization because their art, philosophy, science, political ideas etc went on to spread throughout Europe and many places around the globe.

I thought the argument was over whether the US has traditionally been a Christian country, not Ancient Greece.

I'm sure you know that Catholic Church ruled with an iron fist throughout Europe for a few hundred years.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-15   20:29:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Diana (#48)

thought the argument was over whether the US has traditionally been a Christian country, not Ancient Greece

See, this is where you need to go back and read what was said BEFORE jumping in when you don't know what is going on, Diana.

He said "It kinda disgusts me when Christianity, which just happens to be the foundation of our way of life, of Western Science and Civiliation, is ridiculed and attacked."

It is not about whether or not there are traditional values existent in socitety, it is about the FOUNDATION of our way of life, western science and civilization.

Sorry, but christianity just ain't the right answer... sure it has influence now, but it was not the FOUNDATION of it all... not by a longshot.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   20:35:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Feynman Lives!, diana (#50)

Sorry, but christianity just ain't the right answer... sure it has influence now, but it was not the FOUNDATION of it all... not by a longshot.

So what was?

tom007  posted on  2006-02-15   21:43:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: tom007 (#55)

So what was?

Tom,

IF you had read the thread, you would have seen where this question was ALREADY answered.

If you read the entire thread and STILL can't get your answer, THEN come back to me.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   21:45:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: Feynman Lives! (#56)

To: tom007

So what was?

Tom,

IF you had read the thread, you would have seen where this question was ALREADY answered.

If you read the entire thread and STILL can't get your answer, THEN come back to me.

Okey I'll bite, are you referring to the remarks of the founding fathers?

Diana  posted on  2006-02-15   22:00:52 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Diana (#63)

Okey I'll bite, are you referring to the remarks of the founding fathers?

Again, if you READ the the thread, that is asked and answered.

You get no points for being lazy.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   22:04:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Feynman Lives! (#69)

You get no points for being lazy.

Do you get points for being arrogant?

Of course I read the whole thread.

I give you points for trying to throw people off guard.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-15   22:29:45 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: Diana (#98)

Do you get points for being arrogant?

"Points" are for jerks. Honest dialouge is for peoples trying to achieve higher vision. FL is a detriment to this whole concept. But you know this.

tom007  posted on  2006-02-15   22:41:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: tom007 (#116)

Tom,

If this discussion is not pleasing to you, then why do you partake of it? You are not forced to read this, nor to reply. Your actions make you complicit in the very thing that you are railing against.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   22:43:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: Feynman Lives! (#118)

If this discussion is not pleasing to you, then why do you partake of it? You are not forced to read this, nor to reply. Your actions make you complicit in the very thing that you are railing against.

This is nonsense. I am not going away, you are too easy. Could have been a good discussion tho. But NOOOOO.

tom007  posted on  2006-02-15   22:53:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: tom007 (#129)

This is nonsense. I am not going away, you are too easy. Could have been a good discussion tho. But NOOOOO.

How have any of your comments contributed to anything that could remotely resemble a good discussion?

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   22:58:01 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#143. To: Feynman Lives! (#133)

How have any of your comments contributed to anything that could remotely resemble a good discussion?

There is no truth, there is only discussion, right Feyn?

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-15   23:03:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: Phaedrus (#143)

when you read too much of what phoney-man says you want jesus to return so that he will separate the believers from the non-believers.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-02-15   23:06:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#153. To: Red Jones (#147)

when you read too much of what phoney-man says you want jesus to return so that he will separate the believers from the non-believers.

Wow, Red,

Talk about symmetry... the wheel has turned completely and we return to what STARTED Phaedrus on his little misguided rant.

You say you want Jesus to return, eh? Well, I just read this in the news.

JESUS CHRIST ANNOUNCES THAT HE IS NOT COMING BACK!

-WORLD NEWS-

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, whose return has been eagerly awaited by Christians for two millennia, is never coming back to earth, the Messiah himself announced today.

The Lord issued a surprisingly bitter statement to His followers explaining His decision. A transcript of that statement follows.

FINAL MESSAGE TO HUMANITY

To My followers:

When I made My promise to return to the world and deliver you from evil, I fully intended to keep that promise. Sadly, however, humanity has made Me change My mind. You're not worth redeeming. I'm washing My hands of this disastrous experiment in intelligent life and free will.

I was hoping you'd make some progress since the days when the Romans persecuted the Jews. But nothing has changed. You all still hate each other. You don't do much to feed the hungry, or shelter the homeless, or any of that other shit I told you to do. Why do you even pretend to care about My will? Why do you pray and sing hymns and read the Bible? Is it all just a charade to make you feel better about yourselves?

Never mind. I know the answer to that.

I've learned to hate your species for so many reasons. I can't stand your constant whining about your petty problems. I hate the way you adopt new slang words and catch phrases to try to 'out-hip' each other. I despise your bad table manners. Child pornography also kind of irks Me.

From now on, I'm going to concentrate on other intelligent life forms. Or maybe Dad and I will start a whole new Creation.

Before I do that, though, I want to share just a few of the reasons why you piss Me off. I mean, there are the obvious things, like violence and greed, but that's not what really gets Me.

What really gets Me are the little things. Like the stupid ways you pretend to believe in Me. Christian rock. Tattoos with My name on them. And don't even get Me started on those fucking T-shirts.

When you're not doing trivial things to show your devotion to Me, you're getting all bent out of shape over something pointless. Take 'animal rights.' My dad put animals on the planet to serve humanity. He gave you an enormous variety of creatures to do your work, to serve as your companions, and for you to eat. So now you've decided they have rights? And you attack people to defend those rights? Your ability to invent problems for yourselves never ceases to amaze Me.

I think I could forgive your sins if you were going somewhere culturally. You really had something going back there in the Renaissance. But then you just ran out of creative steam. I realize it gets harder and harder to think of anything original...but paintings of soup cans? That was a few decades ago; nowadays it's even worse. Someone throws crap at a wall and you act like it's profound.

Another thing that makes Me mad are all the bullshit religious myths. Stigmatas, for example. Only one person got a real stigmata, and that's Me. The whole stigmata phenomenon just goes to show that you people can't stand letting someone else get all the attention.

You've got all this nonsense occupying your thoughts when you should be concentrating on more important things. Like not destroying the world, for example. In case you haven't noticed, greenhouse gases are threatening to make the planet uninhabitable, and the kooks of the world are starting to get their hands on nuclear weapons. Guess you can't be bothered with that when American Idol is on.

Think I'm going to save you from self-annihilation? Think again. When you obliterate yourselves, don't come crying to Me.

Yours truly,

Jesus Christ
Office of Redemption and Salvation

P.S. I want My shroud back.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   23:12:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: Feynman Lives! (#153)

Jesus Christ

Office of Redemption and Salvation

P.S. I want My shroud back.

You're not a serious person, Feyn, just some clueless kid with a keyboard. And that's not a compliment, Feyn. But don't take your stuff out into the world. There are those who will knock your block off. And for the record, this is not a personal threat, just an observation. You are incredibly offensive. By design? Certainly not by Intelligent Design.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-02-15   23:20:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: Phaedrus (#168)

But don't take your stuff out into the world. There are those who will knock your block off. And for the record, this is not a personal threat, just an observation

Phaedrus,

While I do appreciate your concern, I shall not worry and keep on truckin' without regard for those who will knock my block off for daring to say that their belief in ghosts just MIGHT be unfounded.

I am a VERY serious person, who wonders how and why any other SERIOUS person could put so much stock in a book that was so poorly written and factualy vacuous.

Becuase I speak my mind, you feel people who believe the same way YOU do will become physically VIOLENT?

WOW, that says VOLUMES about the instability of your belief system.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-15   23:24:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: Feynman Lives! (#175)

When one reads the Gospels, one has to understand they are not journalists giving blow by blow accounts of what happened. It is a writing in the context of the Cross, years later. It is not a purely historical recounting. We are talking retrospective history. The apostles lived with Christ for years and were often confused and did not "get" he was God. They are reflecting back on years previous in the light of the Passion after they had figured out who Christ was. There was a deliberate theology in place already so that we would be given an interpretation of events.

scooter  posted on  2006-02-16   0:04:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#207. To: scooter (#200)

To: Feynman Lives! When one reads the Gospels, one has to understand they are not journalists giving blow by blow accounts of what happened. It is a writing in the context of the Cross, years later. It is not a purely historical recounting. We are talking retrospective history. The apostles lived with Christ for years and were often confused and did not "get" he was God. They are reflecting back on years previous in the light of the Passion after they had figured out who Christ was. There was a deliberate theology in place already so that we would be given an interpretation of events.

Scooter,

Perhaps YOU will step up and answer this question, you seem to be a reasonable person.

Is the bible TRUE? Meaning FACTUAL. Did all the events in the bible actually take place? If not, which ones did not, and how do you know for certain?

As a follow-up... how do you reconcile the plethora of inconsistencies and blatant contradictions in the bible?

Thanks for taking the time to give me a thoughtful and measured response. I look forward to reading your story when I return from my walk.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   0:14:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#296. To: Feynman Lives! (#207)

I think what you are looking for is for someone to say the Bible is the word for word infallible, final authority on all matters of the Christian faith and practice. The problem with that thought is that Sacred Scripture does not make that claim about itself. Folks will/have/do contort St Paul's message to St Timothy to mean the above when St Paul is actually reminding St Timothy to keep and remember the Traditions he was taught as a child and to know the Scriptures (he was taught as a child- The Old Testament) are God Breathed and profitable for teaching, etc. When St Paul wrote that to St Timothy, I doubt most of the New Testament had been written yet. The idea of a cannon of New Testament Scripture more than likely would have been very foreign to St Paul. If the Bible as we know it today is the final, literal, word for word final infallbile authority on all matters of faith and practice then Christians from 33AD to about 500AD are finding things a little warm and toasty because they did not have access to the Bible as a whole. The Old Testament, a couple Gospels and letters, the rest was based on the Tradition, teaching (written and oral) and practices from the Apostles and their disciples themselves.

We know the New Testament is valid, is real, is true because the Church confirms it. The Bible is the product of the Church, not the other way around. Keep things within the context of Tradition (and I speak of the Eastern Orthodox Tradition- what little I know of). We could find out tomorrow that Al Gore wrote the Book of Romans. Free Republic would probably sponser a book burning. To the Eastern Church, it would not matter, the Church has already confirmed and validated the book and its content as a whole. Or, if one reads Proverbs quite literally, one can draw the conclusion the Wisdom is the Mother of God and that we worship a Quadrinity rather than a Trinity. We know that's not the case! Or, the Gospels record two temple cleanings- two entirely different versions of the same account. On their face, obvious discrepencies. Remember what I said, the Gospels are not purely historical journalistic, blow-by-blow accounts of events. They were written years after retrospectively in consideration of the Cross. A theology was already in place in light from people who were clueless about events "then" who are "now" retracing those steps in the full light and rememberence of Christ. They are written from an already shared and common Tradition and experience. The Gospels share a remarkable harmony in all actuality- as they should.

You have another question about the Trinity. You cited Christ's words, "I and that Father are one," and then go to "The Father is greater than I". I am not as well versed on the mysteries of the Trinity as others are, so this is my best attempt to answer your question in my own words. I am "Scooter". I am a person. I am a man. I am a son. All three share the same essence and none of these three can be separated. If I describe myself in the sense of a person, a human being, there is more of a significant qualifier there rather than me describing myself as someone's son. If I walk into an interview and my resume simply says "son of..." and I introduce myself soley as "son of...", I won't get very far. If on that resume I describe myself as the person and talk about myself as the person, I just might get that job. This is how the essence of me as a person is greater than the essence of me as someone's son. Yet both are still of the same essence.

scooter  posted on  2006-02-16   17:27:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#326. To: scooter (#296)

You have another question about the Trinity. You cited Christ's words, "I and that Father are one," and then go to "The Father is greater than I".

Some of those inconsistencies bother me too, I read your explanation but I still don't get it. If Jesus is the same as his father, how can the father be greater?

Diana  posted on  2006-02-16   20:46:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 326.

#329. To: Diana (#326)

Some of those inconsistencies bother me too,

That's why I like meher baba, he just says be nice to one another.

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-16 20:50:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#330. To: Diana (#326)

Some of those inconsistencies bother me too, I read your explanation but I still don't get it. If Jesus is the same as his father, how can the father be greater?

Well, Diana, it just goes to show that the bible is flawed.

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16 20:51:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 326.

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