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Religion
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Title: Can Christ Followers Save The World From Christians
Source: We Hold These Truths
URL Source: http://www.whtt.org/index.php?news=2&id=709
Published: Feb 6, 2006
Author: Charles E. Carlson
Post Date: 2006-02-15 00:09:52 by Red Jones
Keywords: Christians, Followers, Christ
Views: 4203
Comments: 491

Can Christ Followers save the world from Christians

Charles E. Carlson Feb 06, 2006

Why all the bad news?

The news stories in the world press, from South Africa to Norway, are incredibly negative about the USA. It was not always that way. Once, not long ago, most press was good to the USA. Our generations of military and tourists have been treated like liberators in Germany and Japan, countries we helped to destroy and then rebuilt. But no more, “America” is mud.

This letter is not for everyone. Some already recognize the answer, but many still deny that the USA has become both the awful predator, and the world’s engine of monetary dilution. Less anyone thinks this writer is causing America’s image problem we add these words from a pretty good President, Theodore Roosevelt, who was also a decorated military officer:

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President or any other public official, save to the extent in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country.”

"In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth - whether about the president or anyone else - save in the rare case where this would make known to the enemy information of military value which would otherwise be unknown to him." -Theodore Roosevelt

Jesus gave us parables to help us understand his lessons. We follow his example with a parable about a man and the pet he loves and think he controls, which we liken to our government.

This man discovers, to his horror and dismay, that his family dog has become a nighttime marauder, a predator, slipping out of the yard and pillaging the community, killing other pets and threatening pedestrians, and then jumping back into the backyard to sleep it off. What should the man do: 1) Feed the dog more and hope he will stay home? 2) Build a higher fence, cement-in the yard and put double locks on every access? (3) Ignore the problem? (4) Put the dog to sleep before someone is hurt?

The pet owner could try the second choice (2), if he has the patience and money, but chances are he will not sleep well at night. It is his responsibility to stop the crimes, even if it means he has to destroy his own dog. It is not up to the police to solve the crime, nor is it up to the neighbors to correct it. In truth, he should do it himself because he is responsible, not the taxpayers who pay for the animal shelter.

Similarly, it is up to the most responsible Americans to correct criminal acts against its world neighbors, and if we do not then the blood of the USA’s every crime is on our hands. It is not good enough to say, "Oh, this is a great place to live...our standard of living is the envy of the world...even if we do make some mistakes."

It is not our place to recite all the wrongs of our government, we would never finish, nor do we defend any other government for it murderous faults. All are corrupt to some degree. We do defend the right to life of our neighbors, as described in our own Declaration of Independence. Life itself is a gift from God...this is not (for followers of Christ) a subjective, take it or leave it observation, it is an absolute.

A friend and supporter recently called to ask me if I might tone down what he considered my obvious favoritism toward the Palestinian people, whom we have come to call the Philistines. He told me I sound so biased that someone who did not know me might think "they are paying me." In fact, it is people like my caller who is supporting We Hold These Truths, so we listen.

My reply was: Thanks, but I cannot help what I say or the passion that shows through. I have been to the land of the Philistines and seen. Now I am their champion as long as they are suppressed by our own government.

Our government is the marauding dog. I told my friend I would try to do a better job of explaining my bias, but I must not stop defending the innocent blood that is being shed. This is not to say the Philistines, or their current leaders, Hamas, are perfect, nor to deny they have their criminal element, which they do have. I told a beleaguered Univerisity class the same thing when I stood among them in Gaza City, but it is our government. not theirs, that is the problem.

I have but one point to make. God does not “Will” that this great land become the predator of the world. He expects us to be the good stewards of what we are given. We can stop the marauding animal in our back yards if we will allow God to help us. And, if God does not help us, we need not worry about it, for it should now be obvious to most that we cannot overcome the mass of evil power loosed on the world by our own strength alone.

Our “predator” inside our gates has become a "King Kong behemoth. We can succeed only if we do it God’s way, else we will fail. Abraham Lincoln may have later broken his own rules, but he was dead right when he stated in 1848:

“Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better.”

It seem logical thta God's way is to correct His followers

As we have said over and over again and say now, the self-styled Christian Zionist churches, with some 70 million under their influence, are the logical answer.

We call them Scofieldized churches, others call them Dispensational, or lately Christian Zionists, whatever name you call them, they are the enablers of the monster on the loose in the world. It is Scofieldized churches that feed it; it is they who left the gate ajar at night, and they taught the marauder to vault the highest fence. They hatched a logic and theology that enables ethnic cleansing in the Mideast. Only the Scofieldized church, among all the major religions in the world, believes the acts of the nighttime marauder are Godly, and therefore, encourages it.

In America the members of the Scofieldized churchs are the salt of the earth, the good neighbors we all want, the famliy poeple who care, but they are horrible and criminaly misled and they must be salvaged from God professors to Jesus Christ's followers.

Scofildized Christian Zionists simply refuse to see the blood and torn bodies of victims. One of the Ten Commandments that God is said to have given to Moses is:

"You shall not [no, never] take the name of the Lord your God in vain."

This is exactly what the Scofieldized churches do today by supporting in God’s name that which God abhors, the spilling of innocent blood. Each one allows the abuses that Jesus denied and decried. He said to the Pharisees,

"you will not enter into heaven, and you block the way of anyone who would enter."

Jesus could have been speaking to the pastors today.

What is needed is men who will use any tactic that is legal, moral and Godly to reach into the evangelical church and paint the blood of the victims on its doorways where they cannot overlook it. This is the mission of Pharisee Watch and Project Strait Gate. And how do we achieve such a feat?

God’s churches, if they are of God, should be the salt of the earth, but these millions have lost their savor, and therefore, are:

"fit only to be trodden under the feet of men."

But they can change…most of We Hold These Truth's advisors did. Each Christian Zionist at some point lost his senses in the shouting crowd; they will regain their senses slowly, one by one, church by church…with our/your help. This is our agenda.

Start by watching our one hour presentation, with your friends, right on your computer, or you may buy it for your TV: Our best tool to help you teach, view it free: Why Christian-Zionist cannot work for peace, Interactive fully guided free audio/video.

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#429. To: Feynman Lives! (#428)

Im not trying to trap you... now answer my question please.

Wrench  posted on  2006-02-17   3:22:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#430. To: Wrench (#429)

Im not trying to trap you... now answer my question please.

Not until you answer mine.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   3:23:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#431. To: Feynman Lives! (#430)

I will show you how absolute truth and moral absolutes are one in the same ....if you will permit me.

Wrench  posted on  2006-02-17   3:27:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#432. To: Wrench (#431)

I will show you how absolute truth and moral absolutes are one in the same ....if you will permit me.

Once you admit that I did NOT say that there were No Absolute Truths, sure, then I will play your game.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   3:30:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#433. To: Feynman Lives! (#432)

Once you admit that I did NOT say that there were No Absolute Truths, sure, then I will play your game.

I am saying they are one in the same ergo if you deny one you deny the other but if its a matter of semantics with you...ok you did not say the exact words...."I dont believe in absolute truth"....you did say you dont believe in MORAL absolutes which equates to the same thing IMHO......there now

Wrench  posted on  2006-02-17   3:39:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#434. To: Wrench (#433)

you did say you dont believe in MORAL absolutes which equates to the same thing IMHO......there now

Absolute Truths and Universal Morality are not the same thing. It is your folly if you wish to try to show otherwise, it is a tired argument, but you may proceed when you feel you are ready.

Begin...

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   3:41:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#435. To: Feynman Lives! (#434)

Are there logical absolutes?

Wrench  posted on  2006-02-17   3:43:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#436. To: Wrench (#435)

Are there logical absolutes?

*sigh..... this is SO tired...

Want me to have the whole conversation for you?

This is the equivalent argument to "If god is all powerful, can he make a rock so big he can't lift it?"

"Absolute truth" is defined as inflexible reality: fixed, invariable, unalterable facts. For example, it is a fixed, invariable, unalterable fact that there are absolutely no square circles and there are absolutely no round squares.

You can't logically argue against the existence of absolute truth. To argue against something is to establish that a truth exists. You cannot argue against absolute truth unless an absolute truth is the basis of your argument. Consider a few of the classic arguments and declarations made by those who seek to argue against the existence of absolute truth…

"There are no absolutes." First of all, the relativist is declaring there are absolutely no absolutes. That is an absolute statement. The statement is logically contradictory. If the statement is true, there is, in fact, an absolute - there are absolutely no absolutes.

"Truth is relative." Again, this is an absolute statement implying truth is absolutely relative. Besides positing an absolute, suppose the statement was true and "truth is relative." Everything including that statement would be relative. If a statement is relative, it is not always true. If "truth is relative" is not always true, sometimes truth is not relative. This means there are absolutes, which means the above statement is false. When you follow the logic, relativist arguments will always contradict themselves.

So... now you are gonna try to use the classic argument to try to prove the existence of god... go ahead... if you must... but it doesn't work.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   3:56:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#437. To: All (#436)

See... the problem is this... truths are irrefutable, morality is an opinion.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   3:59:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#438. To: Feynman Lives! (#436)

So... now you are gonna try to use the classic argument to try to prove the existence of god... go ahead... if you must... but it doesn't work.

Sure am...sure does... How can logical absolutes which are by nature conceptual, exist in a purely physical universe....they cannot be measured, put in the test tube, weighed, or captured yet, they exist. How can these conceptual absolute truths exist in a purely physical universe...without a God?

Wrench  posted on  2006-02-17   4:06:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#439. To: Wrench (#438)

How can logical absolutes which are by nature conceptual, exist in a purely physical universe....they cannot be measured, put in the test tube, weighed, or captured yet, they exist. How can these conceptual absolute truths exist in a purely physical universe...without a God?

Give me an example.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   4:08:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#440. To: Feynman Lives! (#439)

IMO conceptual absolutes logically must exist in the mind of an absolute God because they cannot merely reside in the properties of matter in a purely naturalistic universe. And since the logical absolutes are true everywhere all the time and they are conceptual, it would seem logical that they exist within a transcendent, omnipresent, being. If there is an absolute God with an absolute mind then he is the standard of all things – as well as morals. Therefore, there would be moral absolutes.

Wrench  posted on  2006-02-17   4:12:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#441. To: Wrench (#440)

IMO conceptual absolutes logically must exist in the mind of an absolute God because they cannot merely reside in the properties of matter in a purely naturalistic universe. And since the logical absolutes are true everywhere all the time and they are conceptual, it would seem logical that they exist within a transcendent, omnipresent, being. If there is an absolute God with an absolute mind then he is the standard of all things – as well as morals. Therefore, there would be moral absolutes.

Wrench... you are not playing the game...

GIVE ME AN EXAMPLE OF A CONCEPTUAL LOGICAL ABSOLUTE.

You are still going to lose, but you may learn something from playing the game.

YOU asked me to play...

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   4:15:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#442. To: Feynman Lives! (#377)

This is what you wrote:

"If it is not the same EVERYWHERE, than it is not universal.... hence the word "Universal."

Look at your dictionary definition... "affecting ALL or THE WHOLE of something" Not just the majority, ALL.

"basically" the same is not "The Same." This is the problem with saying that there are universal moral imperatives".

********************

But I had found the following in the dictionary about one of the definitions of universal which can imply the world as a whole:

"I decided to go ahead and do that, so here is a definition of universal:

2 of, for, affecting all or the whole of something specified; not limited or restricted"

Diana posted on 2006-02-16 22:00:06 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

Whole of something specified, I'd say the earth fits that.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-17   4:18:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#443. To: Feynman Lives! (#377)

"basically" the same is not "The Same." This is the problem with saying that there are universal moral imperatives.

Could you explain that a little further?

I'm not sure what the same is not the same means, and how it relates to universal moral imperatives or lack thereof.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-17   4:23:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#444. To: Diana (#442)

Whole of something specified, I'd say the earth fits that

Diana,

The earth is NOT the whole of the universe.

I see where you were going with this, and I understand your point of view, but the earth is just one planet, in a solar system, in a galaxy of 100 BILLION stars and hundreds of TRILLIONS of planets, which is one of 80 BILLION galaxies in the known universe.

To say that the earth is the whole of something specified is like saying that one of the peas on your plate is the UNIVERSAL pea on your plate. If it is true for that pea, then it should be true for ALL the peas on your plate.

This does not work for the earth.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   4:24:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#445. To: Feynman Lives! (#444)

The earth is NOT the whole of the universe.

I never said it was!

I said it fits the definition of "universal" from the Webster's dictionary.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-17   4:28:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#446. To: Diana (#443)

basically" the same is not "The Same." This is the problem with saying that there are universal moral imperatives. Could you explain that a little further?

I'm not sure what the same is not the same means, and how it relates to universal moral imperatives or lack thereof.

Diana,

Not a problem.

"basically the same" is not the same as "the same"

2 + 1 = 3

2 + 2 = 4

We can see that they are similar, but not the same.

However, if we look at

2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 + 1 = 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,001

2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 + 2 = 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000000,000,000,000,002

We can see that these two numbers are "Basically the same" but not "THE SAME"

Does that help?

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   4:29:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#447. To: Wrench (#440)

IMO conceptual absolutes logically must exist in the mind of an absolute God because they cannot merely reside in the properties of matter in a purely naturalistic universe. And since the logical absolutes are true everywhere all the time and they are conceptual, it would seem logical that they exist within a transcendent, omnipresent, being. If there is an absolute God with an absolute mind then he is the standard of all things – as well as morals. Therefore, there would be moral absolutes.

Oh... and after you give me an example, please show me PROOF to support your OPINION that "conceptual absolutes logically must exist in the mind of an absolute God because they cannot merely reside in the properties of matter in a purely naturalistic universe"

Why can they not merely reside in the properties of matter in a purely naturalistic universe? There is no obvious contradiction that would prevent it.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   4:30:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#448. To: Feynman Lives! (#444)

Here are a few more definitions of universal from Webster's dictionary:

4 broad in knowledge, interests, abilitites, etc.

5 that can be used for a great many or all kinds, forms, sizes, etc.; highly adaptable [a iniversal voltage regulator]

6 used, intended to be used, or understood by all

Diana  posted on  2006-02-17   4:42:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#449. To: Feynman Lives! (#437)

See... the problem is this... truths are irrefutable, morality is an opinion.

Both are equally important for a society to survive.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-17   4:46:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#450. To: Diana (#448)

Diana,

Yes, those are all different definitions for the word. However, you need to look at the term in the situation in which it is being employed to know which definition to use.

Universal morality certainly is not referring to "broad in knowledge, interest or ability." It is not sufficient to say that a UNIVERSAL morality is one "that can be used by a great many" or that is "highly adaptable." And to say that a UNIVERSAL morality is one which is "intended to be used or understood by all" does not apply as it is to ambiguous a definition. "Intended to be used" does not imply that it MUST be used, it is essentially stating an opinion.

Thanks.

:)

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   4:49:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#451. To: Diana (#449)

Both are equally important for a society to survive.

Agreed, but they are VERY different things and are not synonomous.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   4:50:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#452. To: Feynman Lives! (#446)

2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 + 2 = 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000000,000,000,000,002

We can see that these two numbers are "Basically the same" but not "THE SAME"

Does that help?

Okey.

That problem with words again.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-17   4:50:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#453. To: Diana (#452)

That problem with words again.

Diana,

Our entire existence is contained inside of words, it is how we communicate. There is a huge and insigificant difference between something being BASICALLY the same and THE SAME.

If you got married, and your husband was replaced one day with a guy who looked and acted BASICALLY the same as your husband, you would notice and it would more than likely be an issue of great concern to you. The your husband and his impostor are BASICALLY THE SAME, but not THE SAME, and that is an issue of major importance to you.

If you order coffee and they don't have cream, but they do have skim milk, then it probably would NOT be a big deal that cream and skim milk are BASICALLY the same. They are BASICALLY THE SAME, but not THE SAME, yet you are not concerned.

Does THAT help?

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   4:56:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#454. To: Feynman Lives!, Scooter (#450)

Yes, those are all different definitions for the word. However, you need to look at the term in the situation in which it is being employed to know which definition to use.

That is an assumption on your part that I don't understand the differece between the definitions and their usage. I was letting you know of some more definitions that were in my dictionary under "universal", that's all.

My brain is too tired to think at this point, I need to go to bed.

Scooter thankyou for that text, I read it but I think it will be better to read it again tomorrow.

FL you have A LOT of energy.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-17   5:39:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#455. To: Feynman Lives! (#453)

Are you a defense lawyer?

Diana  posted on  2006-02-17   5:42:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#456. To: Diana (#455)

Are you a defense lawyer?

He's a troll, Diana. Best to ignore him. Everyone should Bozo Filter him; sooner or later he will give up and leave, when no one is responding to his posts.

"I am to misbehave" -- Mal Reynolds, Firefly

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-02-17   7:16:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#457. To: YertleTurtle, Diana (#456)

Everyone should Bozo Filter him

I've never used the bozo filter, but I think this is a time for it.

Red Jones  posted on  2006-02-17   7:21:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#458. To: Feynman Lives! (#408)

Killing your father, screwing your mother and eating your kids. Most folks would agree about that

Most, but not all.

Most does not make it UNIVERSAL.

So tell me what cultures allow killing your father, screwing your mother and eating your kids?

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-17   10:32:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#459. To: mehitable (#458)

So tell me what cultures allow killing your father, screwing your mother and eating your kids?

HEY ..what's the problem?? Maybe he's a member of the Church of Satan?? :P

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-17   10:53:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#460. To: Diana (#455)

Are you a defense lawyer?

Probably.. he's defending the indefensible LOL

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-17   10:54:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#461. To: Zipporah (#459)

True, or he could be an Illuminati, in which case he gets a promotion with each of those.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-17   11:06:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#462. To: mehitable (#458)

So tell me what cultures allow killing your father, screwing your mother and eating your kids?

Mehitable,

It is not about CULTURES. Universal Morality fails if ONE person feels contrary to you about any given action.

This is the inherent problem with universal qualifiers.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   11:55:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#463. To: Zipporah (#460)

Probably.. he's defending the indefensible LOL

Zip,

What am I defending that is indefensible?

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   12:01:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#464. To: Feynman Lives! (#462)

Mehitable,

It is not about CULTURES. Universal Morality fails if ONE person feels contrary to you about any given action.

This is the inherent problem with universal qualifiers.

So why does it matter if one crazy person thinks it's okay to kill your father, screw your mother and eat your children? WHat is the possible significance of that to the larger society? Or do you think that the opinion of one person that it is okay to kill your father, screw your mother and eat your children morally equates to the opinion of all the rest of the people who don't agree with that?

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-17   12:09:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#465. To: Feynman Lives! (#463)

You are obviously supportive of and promoting moral relativism, which is precisely as you have outlined - that if ONE person disagrees with the moral principles of an entire society and rejects them and breaks them, that position is morally equivalent to the position of the greater society.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-17   12:11:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#466. To: mehitable (#464)

So why does it matter if one crazy person thinks it's okay to kill your father, screw your mother and eat your children? WHat is the possible significance of that to the larger society? Or do you think that the opinion of one person that it is okay to kill your father, screw your mother and eat your children morally equates to the opinion of all the rest of the people who don't agree with that?

Mehitable,

Why it matters is that it disproves the theory of Universal Morality. You can EASILY make a case for a SOCIAL Morality, that is based upon the OPINIONS of any given society, but you can't make a case for a UNIVERSAL morality, in which EVERYONE agrees that "X is Y in all situations." Morality is established a posteriori, not a priori. A new born baby does not care one way or the other whether or not you kill your father, screw your mother or eat your children. It does not understand the concepts and has not formed AN OPINION on the matter.

The opinion of one person that it is okay to kill your father, screw your mother and eat your children ABSOLUTELY morally equates to the opinion of all the rest of the people who don't agree with that. Because they are JUST OPINIONS, not facts. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. This is another reason why Universal Morality fails, because Morality is BASED upon opinion, not fact.

YOU calling someone who disagrees with you "Crazy" is just your OPINION of that person's state of mind, it is not a factual statement. There are many examples in society where people called those who disagreed with society "CRAZY" in order to discount what they had to say. Many of them were scientists who were "CRAZY" enough to think things like "The earth is NOT the center of the universe," or "The sun does NOT revolve around the earth."

There is no such thing as a Universal Morality, sorry.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   12:27:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#467. To: mehitable (#465)

You are obviously supportive of and promoting moral relativism, which is precisely as you have outlined - that if ONE person disagrees with the moral principles of an entire society and rejects them and breaks them, that position is morally equivalent to the position of the greater society.

Mehitable,

Once again you are incorrect. I am not supportive of, nor am I promoting moral relativism, I simply understand that the position is tennable.

What I am stating is plain - that a UNIVERSAL morality does not exist. By contrast, I am a large supporter of SOCIETAL morality, even though I understand that the underlying principle is fluid.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   12:30:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#468. To: Feynman Lives!, all (#467)

What I am stating is plain - that a UNIVERSAL morality does not exist. By contrast, I am a large supporter of SOCIETAL morality, even though I understand that the underlying principle is fluid.

We know that what you are saying is untrue just by canvassing various societies throughout history - none have supported the behaviour I referred to. The only individuals who would engage in such behavior have been denounced and treated as criminals in every single society on earth - and you cannot find an exception. If you are (and you ARE) equating the moral positions of criminals with those of the vast majority of society, you are a moral relativist, whether you admit or acknowledge that or not.

Stop lying by cutting hairs. You're gonna end up bald.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-17   12:36:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#469. To: mehitable (#468)

The only individuals who would engage in such behavior have been denounced and treated as criminals in every single society on earth - and you cannot find an exception. If you are (and you ARE) equating the moral positions of criminals with those of the vast majority of society, you are a moral relativist, whether you admit or acknowledge that or not.

Stop lying by cutting hairs. You're gonna end up bald.

ROFL...

Mehitable, you just ignored my entire post, and then you PROVED it correct.

Wow. Most impressive.

You keep proving it... you fall back to the morality of the "VAST MAJORITY OF SOCIETY," which, as we all know is NOT Universal.

Like I said, I agree with and believe in SOCIETAL MORALITY, because it exists. You just proved AGAIN that there is no UNIVERSAL MORALITY.

I am not a moral relativist at all, Mehitable, I am just smart enough to see that Universal Morality is a myth.

I am not lying at all, I am showing you The Truth.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-17   12:45:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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