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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Can Christ Followers Save The World From Christians
Source: We Hold These Truths
URL Source: http://www.whtt.org/index.php?news=2&id=709
Published: Feb 6, 2006
Author: Charles E. Carlson
Post Date: 2006-02-15 00:09:52 by Red Jones
Keywords: Christians, Followers, Christ
Views: 4839
Comments: 491

Can Christ Followers save the world from Christians

Charles E. Carlson Feb 06, 2006

Why all the bad news?

The news stories in the world press, from South Africa to Norway, are incredibly negative about the USA. It was not always that way. Once, not long ago, most press was good to the USA. Our generations of military and tourists have been treated like liberators in Germany and Japan, countries we helped to destroy and then rebuilt. But no more, “America” is mud.

This letter is not for everyone. Some already recognize the answer, but many still deny that the USA has become both the awful predator, and the world’s engine of monetary dilution. Less anyone thinks this writer is causing America’s image problem we add these words from a pretty good President, Theodore Roosevelt, who was also a decorated military officer:

"Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President or any other public official, save to the extent in which he himself stands by the country. It is patriotic to support him insofar as he efficiently serves the country. It is unpatriotic not to oppose him to the exact extent that by inefficiency or otherwise he fails in his duty to stand by the country.”

"In either event, it is unpatriotic not to tell the truth - whether about the president or anyone else - save in the rare case where this would make known to the enemy information of military value which would otherwise be unknown to him." -Theodore Roosevelt

Jesus gave us parables to help us understand his lessons. We follow his example with a parable about a man and the pet he loves and think he controls, which we liken to our government.

This man discovers, to his horror and dismay, that his family dog has become a nighttime marauder, a predator, slipping out of the yard and pillaging the community, killing other pets and threatening pedestrians, and then jumping back into the backyard to sleep it off. What should the man do: 1) Feed the dog more and hope he will stay home? 2) Build a higher fence, cement-in the yard and put double locks on every access? (3) Ignore the problem? (4) Put the dog to sleep before someone is hurt?

The pet owner could try the second choice (2), if he has the patience and money, but chances are he will not sleep well at night. It is his responsibility to stop the crimes, even if it means he has to destroy his own dog. It is not up to the police to solve the crime, nor is it up to the neighbors to correct it. In truth, he should do it himself because he is responsible, not the taxpayers who pay for the animal shelter.

Similarly, it is up to the most responsible Americans to correct criminal acts against its world neighbors, and if we do not then the blood of the USA’s every crime is on our hands. It is not good enough to say, "Oh, this is a great place to live...our standard of living is the envy of the world...even if we do make some mistakes."

It is not our place to recite all the wrongs of our government, we would never finish, nor do we defend any other government for it murderous faults. All are corrupt to some degree. We do defend the right to life of our neighbors, as described in our own Declaration of Independence. Life itself is a gift from God...this is not (for followers of Christ) a subjective, take it or leave it observation, it is an absolute.

A friend and supporter recently called to ask me if I might tone down what he considered my obvious favoritism toward the Palestinian people, whom we have come to call the Philistines. He told me I sound so biased that someone who did not know me might think "they are paying me." In fact, it is people like my caller who is supporting We Hold These Truths, so we listen.

My reply was: Thanks, but I cannot help what I say or the passion that shows through. I have been to the land of the Philistines and seen. Now I am their champion as long as they are suppressed by our own government.

Our government is the marauding dog. I told my friend I would try to do a better job of explaining my bias, but I must not stop defending the innocent blood that is being shed. This is not to say the Philistines, or their current leaders, Hamas, are perfect, nor to deny they have their criminal element, which they do have. I told a beleaguered Univerisity class the same thing when I stood among them in Gaza City, but it is our government. not theirs, that is the problem.

I have but one point to make. God does not “Will” that this great land become the predator of the world. He expects us to be the good stewards of what we are given. We can stop the marauding animal in our back yards if we will allow God to help us. And, if God does not help us, we need not worry about it, for it should now be obvious to most that we cannot overcome the mass of evil power loosed on the world by our own strength alone.

Our “predator” inside our gates has become a "King Kong behemoth. We can succeed only if we do it God’s way, else we will fail. Abraham Lincoln may have later broken his own rules, but he was dead right when he stated in 1848:

“Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government and form a new one that suits them better.”

It seem logical thta God's way is to correct His followers

As we have said over and over again and say now, the self-styled Christian Zionist churches, with some 70 million under their influence, are the logical answer.

We call them Scofieldized churches, others call them Dispensational, or lately Christian Zionists, whatever name you call them, they are the enablers of the monster on the loose in the world. It is Scofieldized churches that feed it; it is they who left the gate ajar at night, and they taught the marauder to vault the highest fence. They hatched a logic and theology that enables ethnic cleansing in the Mideast. Only the Scofieldized church, among all the major religions in the world, believes the acts of the nighttime marauder are Godly, and therefore, encourages it.

In America the members of the Scofieldized churchs are the salt of the earth, the good neighbors we all want, the famliy poeple who care, but they are horrible and criminaly misled and they must be salvaged from God professors to Jesus Christ's followers.

Scofildized Christian Zionists simply refuse to see the blood and torn bodies of victims. One of the Ten Commandments that God is said to have given to Moses is:

"You shall not [no, never] take the name of the Lord your God in vain."

This is exactly what the Scofieldized churches do today by supporting in God’s name that which God abhors, the spilling of innocent blood. Each one allows the abuses that Jesus denied and decried. He said to the Pharisees,

"you will not enter into heaven, and you block the way of anyone who would enter."

Jesus could have been speaking to the pastors today.

What is needed is men who will use any tactic that is legal, moral and Godly to reach into the evangelical church and paint the blood of the victims on its doorways where they cannot overlook it. This is the mission of Pharisee Watch and Project Strait Gate. And how do we achieve such a feat?

God’s churches, if they are of God, should be the salt of the earth, but these millions have lost their savor, and therefore, are:

"fit only to be trodden under the feet of men."

But they can change…most of We Hold These Truth's advisors did. Each Christian Zionist at some point lost his senses in the shouting crowd; they will regain their senses slowly, one by one, church by church…with our/your help. This is our agenda.

Start by watching our one hour presentation, with your friends, right on your computer, or you may buy it for your TV: Our best tool to help you teach, view it free: Why Christian-Zionist cannot work for peace, Interactive fully guided free audio/video.

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#361. To: Feynman Lives!, Zipporah (#358)

OOOOOH, if I had a pillow filled with butterscotch pudding,

she prefers chocolate.

christine  posted on  2006-02-16   21:44:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#362. To: Feynman Lives! (#338)

The dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan. Was this ONE action a UNIVERSALLY GOOD or UNIVERSALLY BAD action?

I would say universally bad, as the war was about over and I doubt those bombings would have changed the outcome. Apparently Japan was about to cave in anyway.

I see your point, this was never meant to be a perfect world and everything in it is flawed. I still maintain though that there are universal laws of good and evil among humans, though groups still clash with others resulting in wars.

I don't think good and bad are subjective, as everyone feels, including you, and no one wants to suffer, or see those they love suffer or die.

If people were mere robots with no mind or soul, there would still be a code of right and wrong as even dogs and horses and other social animals have strict rules of conduct.

I think the most important clue in this whole thing is that this is not a perfect world.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-16   21:45:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#363. To: Feynman Lives! (#358)

OOOOOH, if I had a pillow filled with butterscotch pudding, I would SO smack you with it right now! :P

Thank you, GRAMMAR NAZI, for the correction.

Now, will you kindly answer the question?

No, make that spelling Nazi.. anyway, I just wanted to be sure I understood what you were saying..

So you're asking if I believe that it was universally wrong to drop nukes on Japan.. I would answer yes in my opinion it was.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-16   21:45:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#364. To: christine (#361)

she prefers chocolate.

Dammit! And I had this one half filled already!

*tosses soiled pillowcase over the deck and onto the street below

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   21:47:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#365. To: Zipporah (#354)

bianary funtion

weren't they the jazz band at the 2004 special olympics?

Yes, that was uncalled for, I know I'm going to hell. Bury me by the waterslides, ok?

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-16   21:47:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#366. To: Diana (#362)

This is to both Diana and Zip.

The dropping of the atomic bomb cost 110,000 lives.

However, it SAVED, at a minimum, 3 MILLION lives.

So, which was the greater good?

A LOT of people HAD to die to end that war... Was it a greater thing to save those 110,000 lives or the 3,000,000 who would have died in the invasion of Japan?

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   21:50:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#367. To: Dakmar (#365)

Bury me by the waterslides, ok?

i'll plant a tree over ya.

christine  posted on  2006-02-16   21:51:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#368. To: Feynman Lives! (#360)

Roy Rogers girlfriend?

I can't think of any other famous people named Dale either.

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-16   21:52:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#369. To: Diana (#362)

I don't think good and bad are subjective, as everyone feels, including you, and no one wants to suffer, or see those they love suffer or die.

Sad to say, but in the real world, there ARE indeed people who want to suffer and to see others suffer and die. This is why there is no universal morality.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   21:54:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#370. To: Dakmar (#368)

can't think of any other famous people named Dale either.

Dale Carnegie. How to Win Friends and Influence People.

...  posted on  2006-02-16   21:57:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#371. To: Dakmar (#368)

I can't think of any other famous people named Dale either.

Chip and Dale.

The world's two most famous Gerbils.

But they arn't really people.

...  posted on  2006-02-16   21:58:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#372. To: Feynman Lives! (#366)

However, it SAVED, at a minimum, 3 MILLION lives.

prove it.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-16   21:59:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#373. To: Feynman Lives!, Zipporah (#350)

The issue before you is a binary funtion. If it is true that there IS a universal right and wrong, good or bad, in the universe...

When I say univeral laws, I'm talking about laws which are basically the same around the world, not the whole universe.

I just wanted to point that out as you can be a nit-picker with words. I meant universal as in world-wide, I can get out the dictionary again.

I decided to go ahead and do that, so here is a definition of universal:

2 of, for, affecting all or the whole of something specified; not limited or restricted

Diana  posted on  2006-02-16   22:00:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#374. To: Feynman Lives! (#352)

Let them know I am not interested.

Well so far there is only a title.

But you have a fan there, one of the Todds.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-16   22:02:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#375. To: Dakmar (#355)

My parents never went to church, and my dad openly mocked all religions.

Same here, my father was a devout atheist and my mother just wanted to read all the time.

She wasn't an atheist but was not at all interersted in religion. I didn't even know why people went to church until I was about ten.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-16   22:06:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#376. To: Feynman Lives! (#300)

(1)That is circular reasoning. The bible is true because the organization that GIVES us the bible SAYS it is true. It is akin to saying 'I can prove to you my imagniary friend is real by simply telling you that he is because I say he is." Utterly ridiculous and without any merit whatsoever.

This time I would like to explain a little the attitude of the early Church towards the Bible.

One of the very first anti-Christian ideas was called Gnosticism. Originating with Simon Magus (see Acts, 8), the Gnostics claimed to possess the "true" but "secret" teachings of Christ and the Apostles. They accused the early Church Fathers of Suppressing these "mystic teachings" and deliberately keeping people in bondage to ignorance. They said Christian doctrines were too simple, and they preferred elaborate and exotic explanations to the pure doctrines of the Church.

Another difference between Christianity and Gnosticism was this: from the time of the Apostles the Church had rejected other religions as being false or even demonic; only faith in Christ and cooperation with God's grace can save. But Gnostics said that all · 'religions are basically the same and therefore all are in some sense true. Gnosis, or secret knowledge, was all a man needed; once he possessed this knowledge he would be "saved" and could then do whatever else he wanted.

Gnostics attacked the Church and tried to lure away many of the faithful. The Church had to defend its flock. One of the "generals" in this battle for the souls of men (for that was exactly what it was) was the Church Father, St- Irenaeus of Lyons (140-202 A.D.). He had been a disciple of the martyred St. Polycarp, who was in turn a disciple of the Apostle John.

St. Irenaeus carefully studied the ideas of the Gnostics. He saw that they wished to supplement Apostolic teaching with unwritten, secret doctrines and additional "gospels" (other than those written by the four Evangelists); He came to the conclusion that the Church must do two things: first, the question must be settled as to what the authority for a Christian is. Second, a fixed list of authentic Scriptures must be drawn up.

He realized that the Holy Scriptures, which until then had been widely scattered throughout the Christian communities, simply must be brought together and given some kind of system or order. So St. Irenaeus became the first Holy Father (so far as we know) to give a list of Scriptures that almost completely corresponds to the one we use today! In doing this, the Saint made it possible for Christians to avoid the false "scriptures" Of the Gnostics, or others who were outside the Church; this helped all true believers to know what was true and what was false, in keeping with the words of another Father, St. Jerome, who wrote: "The truth has set bounds...but evil and falsehood multiply without end."

On what basis did St, Irenaeus draw up his list of accepted Scripture? What was His authority for including some writings and excluding others? He answers this question himself, and his answer is very important.

He said that the Church of Christ may accept only those writings and teachings which are held in common by the churches of apostolic origin. Isn't it logical, he asked, to assume that if the Holy Apostles had known of "hidden mysteries ," "they would have handed them down especially to those to whom they were entrusting the churches themselves"? And would not those first successors have handed those teachings on to their successors, and so on?

But the fact is, St. Irenaeus continues, the successors to the Apostles do not teach such things at all; nor do they use the strange "gospels" which Gnostics use, "We appeal," he wrote, to that tradition [about written Scripture and oral tradition] which has come down from the Apostles and is guarded by the succession of bishops in the churches."

Therefore, we use only those Scriptures that are used by the successors to the Apostles, and we teach only that which they teach and which had been believed, in unbroken succession, from the time of the Apostles. A "successor to the Apostles," furthermore, is a bishop that can trace his ordination back to one of the Holy Apostles--not a man who calls himself a bishop but who is actually only "self-appointed."

What is fascinating is that nowhere does St. Irenaeus say that the Bible alone is the authority for Christians ! On the contrary! He says that it is the authority of the bishops of the Church that validates Holy Scripture. He writes: "Even if the Apostles, had not left their Scriptures to us, ought we not to follow the rule of the tradition which they handed down to those to whom they committed the churches?"

This early Holy Father's teachings concerning the Bible and the Church are absolutely crucial for those today who wish to find Christ's True Church. St. Irenaeus puts it this way:

"Since there are so many clear testimonies, we should not seek from others for the truth which can easily be received from the Church. It was there, in-the Church, that the Apostles, like a rich man making a deposit, fully bestowed everything that belongs to the truth. She is the entrance to life; all others are thieves and robbers. Therefore we ought to avoid them, but to love with the greatest love the things of the Church, and so lay hold of the tradition of the truth."

Sincerely in Christ, Fr. Alexey Young

scooter  posted on  2006-02-16   22:10:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#377. To: Diana (#373)

When I say univeral laws, I'm talking about laws which are basically the same around the world, not the whole universe.

If it is not the same EVERYWHERE, than it is not universal.... hence the word "Universal."

Look at your dictionary definition... "affecting ALL or THE WHOLE of something" Not just the majority, ALL.

"basically" the same is not "The Same." This is the problem with saying that there are universal moral imperatives.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   22:14:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#378. To: Feynman Lives! (#366)

The dropping of the atomic bomb cost 110,000 lives.

However, it SAVED, at a minimum, 3 MILLION lives.

So, which was the greater good?

A LOT of people HAD to die to end that war... Was it a greater thing to save those 110,000 lives or the 3,000,000 who would have died in the invasion of Japan?

My answer is that it's impossible to answer that.

If we knew for a FACT that what you said is so, if 110,000 lives were lost to save 3 million lives, than it would have been for the greater good.

However it's not certain that Japan would have invaded the US; they were pretty beat down by that time and I doubt they had the capability to invade the continental US.

It's only possible to answer such a question if the facts are truly known or established. When dealing with history so much is left up in the air. We would have to have have been there, listened to all conversations pertaining to the plans to bomb, been there and understood what the Japanese were planning and talking about in secret meetings and so on. Otherwise it's impossible to know the facts or the truth.

I believe evidence shows the bombings didn't have to happen since the Japanese were tired and wiped out by that time.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-16   22:17:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#379. To: scooter (#376)

Scooter,

How lovely of you to take the time to post the work of Father Young. However, that does not address the issue at hand.

There is nothing outside of the bible that verifies most of the accounts of the bible.

For example: Outside of the bible there is NO evidence of Moses existing, or the Jews being enslaved by the Egyptians, NOR their escape from Egypt.

Hmmm, not a peep anywhere else but in that book...

No record in ALL of the Egyptian history, and we have uncovered quite a bit of it. It wasn't like the bible says the Jews were enslaved for a weekend... it was for generations... but somehow the Egyptians failed to mention this ANYWHERE?

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   22:18:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#380. To: Diana (#378)

A LOT of people HAD to die to end that war... Was it a greater thing to save those 110,000 lives or the 3,000,000 who would have died in the invasion of Japan?

My answer is that it's impossible to answer that.

Diana,

More support to say that there can be no universally right or wrong actions. The Japanese were training their children to fight with sticks in the event of an invasion before we dropped the bomb. American soldiers would have been forced to shoot children that were attacking them with POINTED STICKS...

Remember, they found Japanese soldiers on islands 15 YEARS after the war, who STILL believed that the war was on... they were a fanatical nation, ready to give their lives for the Emperor.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   22:22:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#381. To: Feynman Lives! (#380)

More support to say that there can be no universally right or wrong actions. The Japanese were training their children to fight with sticks in the event of an invasion before we dropped the bomb. American soldiers would have been forced to shoot children that were attacking them with POINTED STICKS...

And your point (pun intended)?

Had American soldiers been forced into that awful situation, the "right" action swould have been to survive at any cost. End of argument.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-02-16   22:25:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#382. To: Feynman Lives!, diana (#380)

he Japanese were training their children to fight with sticks in the event of an invasion before we dropped the bomb. American soldiers would have been forced to shoot children that were attacking them with POINTED STICKS...

You are crazy. Yes, if you really believe this swill you are posting, you are off balance..

The real Feynman would punch you in the nose, and HARD.

tom007  posted on  2006-02-16   22:27:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#383. To: Diana (#378)

believe evidence shows the bombings didn't have to happen since the Japanese were tired and wiped out by that time.

Defeated totally. The peasents in the rual areas were eating tree bark to survive. The bombings by FDR seemed to be a convienent demonstration of the new power the US had to impress the Russians, for the Euorpean theater. No one knew how many we had.

tom007  posted on  2006-02-16   22:36:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#384. To: Feynman Lives! (#380)

More support to say that there can be no universally right or wrong actions.

So if someone breaks into your Dallas apt, tonite, sprays insecticide up your nose, rapes you and slits your throat on the way out, it's just an OK kinda thinggy,as there no U w or r.

I don't want you on any camping trip I 'm going on.

You are so smart, you are outwitting yourself.

tom007  posted on  2006-02-16   22:41:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#385. To: Feynman Lives!, diana (#380)

The Japanese were training their children to fight with sticks in the event of an invasion before we dropped the bomb. American soldiers would have been forced to shoot children that were attacking them with POINTED STICKS...

Forced to kill children with sticks! O yeh FL, "forced". The devil made me do it!!!! I had to kill the 10 yo cause he had a POINTED STICK!!!! Gad it was awful - the child was going to punch the dreaaded "POINTED STICK" (TM, FL) through the tank and pierce my boil!! it was horrible!!!!)

It is getting funny, FL, you are the comedian!! Keep em comming!!.

tom007  posted on  2006-02-16   22:48:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#386. To: Feynman Lives! (#380)

POINTED STICKS...

OMG, they were using PENCILS. The nerve of those terrorists.

tom007  posted on  2006-02-16   22:49:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#387. To: tom007 (#384)

More support to say that there can be no universally right or wrong actions. So if someone breaks into your Dallas apt, tonite, sprays insecticide up your nose, rapes you and slits your throat on the way out, it's just an OK kinda thinggy,as there no U w or r.

I don't want you on any camping trip I 'm going on.

You are so smart, you are outwitting yourself.

Tom,

Wow... you actually looked like you were thinking hard there.

Too bad you didn't make any sense.

If someone broke into my apartment and did all those wonderful things to me, then, according to the laws of the City of Dallas, the State of Texas, and the United States of America, they would be breaking the law and, if caught and convicted, they would be punished.

Just because there is no UNIVERSAL wrong or right does not matter. WE decide what WE feel is wrong or right in a given situation. Society passes laws, and then they change them to meet the needs of the society at that time. 200 years ago, it was ILLEGAL for black people to learn to read. 150 years ago, it was LEGAL to buy and sell people, and to kill those people that you bought and sold. 125 years ago, it was ILLEGAL for women to vote. 75 yeas ago it was ILLEGAL to buy or sell alcohol. 50 years ago it was LEGAL to drive a car that did not have seatbelts installed in it. 25 years ago it was LEGAL to smoke in any public bar in America.

No universal right or wrongs actually GIVES us the freedom to change the laws to suit society, which is how it should be. The Law is a living thing.

So, as amusing as your analogy was, it was off base.

Nice effort, you can have a cookie.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   22:49:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#388. To: Dakmar, Feynman Lives! (#368)

To: Feynman Lives!

Roy Rogers girlfriend?

I can't think of any other famous people named Dale either.

Dale Bumpers?

Diana  posted on  2006-02-16   22:56:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#389. To: All, Feynman Lives! (#376)

YIKES:

I am not the author of my previous post. Source is Here. I forgot to put that link in.

scooter  posted on  2006-02-16   22:58:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#390. To: Feynman Lives! (#369)

Sad to say, but in the real world, there ARE indeed people who want to suffer and to see others suffer and die. This is why there is no universal morality.

That's why I say the most important clue in all this is that this is not a perfect world because as you point out there is a lot of bad behavior out there.

I still think there is a universal morality, it's just that some people do not follow it, and that is why we have to have laws to protect society.

I believe some societies are more evolved than others; for instance Sierra Leone is a big mess with gangs running around with machetes to use on people, no real infrastructure, etc.

However Netherlands is a very organized country with little crime, not counting the Muslims there.

I think we are all put here to learn and grow, and some are behind others.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-16   23:03:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#391. To: Diana (#388)

Asking me about the Trinity.... I have to admit I am quickly getting into areas that I know little about and any personal thoughts on the matter may lead you (others) astray. I have to attempt to stay consistent with what has been taught by the (Eastern) Church.

St John Chrysostom wrote a homily (sermon) about St John 14 and he covers the verse 28 that was originally in question. I'll repost this for you. Take time to read it and re-read it again 4 or 5 times. Read it slowly. That's not to insult your intelligence, its just his writing style is not familiar to most. And it is in the KJV Enlgish to boot.

Ver. 26. "The Comforter, whom the Father shall send in My Name, He shall teach you."20

"Perhaps these things are not clear to you now, but `He'21 is a clear teacher of them." And the, "remaineth with you" (ver. 17), is the expression of One implying that Himself will depart. Then that they may not be grieved, He saith, that as long as He should remain with them and the Spirit should not come, they would be unable to comprehend anything great or sublime. And this He said to prepare them to bear nobly His departure, as that which was to be the cause of great blessings to them. He continually calleth Him "Comforter," because of the afflictions which then possessed them. And since even after hearing these things they were troubled, when they thought of the sorrows, the wars, His departure, see how He calmeth them again by saying,

Ver. 27. "Peace I leave to you."22

All but saying, "What are ye harmed by the trouble of the world, provided ye be at peace with23 Me? For this peace is not of the same kind as that. The one is external, is often mischievous and unprofitable, and is no advantage to those who possess it; but I give you peace of such a kind that ye be at peace with one another, which thing rendereth you stronger." And because He said again, "I leave," which was the expression of One departing, and enough to confound them, therefore He again saith,

"Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid."

Seest thou that they were affected partly by loving affection, partly by fear?

Ver. 28. "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved Me, ye would rejoice because I said, I go unto the Father; for My Father is greater than I."

[4.] And what joy would this bring to them? What consolation? What then mean the words? They did not yet know concerning the Resurrection, nor had they right opinion concerning Him; (for how could they, who did not even know that He would rise again?) but they thought that the Father was mighty. He saith then, that "If ye are fearful for Me, as not able to defend Myself, and if ye are not confident that I shall see you again after the Crucifixion, yet when ye heard that I go to the Father, ye ought then to have rejoiced because I go away to One that is greater, and able to undo all dangers." "Ye have heard how I said unto you." Why hath He put this? Because, He saith, "I am so firmly confident about the things which come to pass, that I even foretell them, so far am I from fearing." This also is the meaning of what follows.

Ver. 29. "And now I have told you before it come to pass, that when it is come to pass, ye might believe that I Am."24 As though He had said, "Ye would not have known, had I not told you. And I should not have told you, had I not been confident." Seest thou that the speech is one of condescension? for when He saith, "Think ye that I cannot pray to the Father, and He shall presently give Me more than twelve legions of Angels" (Matt. xxvi. 53), He speaketh to the secret thoughts of the hearers; since no one, even in the height of madness, would say that He was not able to help Himself, but needed Angels; but because they thought of Him as a man, therefore He spoke of "twelve legions of Angels." Yet in truth He did but ask those who came to take Him a question, and cast them backwards. (c. xviii. 6.) (If any one say that the Father is greater, inasmuch as25 He is the cause of the Son, we will not contradict this. But this doth not by any means make the Son to be of a different Essence.) But what He saith, is of this kind: "As long as I am here, it is natural that you should deem that I am26 in danger; but when I am gone `there,'27 be confident that I am in safety; for Him none will be able to overcome." All these words were addressed to the weakness of the disciples, for, "I Myself am confident, and care not for death." On this account, He said, "I have told you these things before they come to pass"; "but since," He saith, "ye are not yet able to receive the saying concerning them, I bring you comfort even from the Father, whom ye entitle great." Having thus consoled them, He again telleth them sorrowful things,

scooter  posted on  2006-02-16   23:07:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#392. To: Feynman Lives! (#380)

More support to say that there can be no universally right or wrong actions. The Japanese were training their children to fight with sticks in the event of an invasion before we dropped the bomb. American soldiers would have been forced to shoot children that were attacking them with POINTED STICKS...

Remember, they found Japanese soldiers on islands 15 YEARS after the war, who STILL believed that the war was on... they were a fanatical nation, ready to give their lives for the Emperor.

Right, they were downright weird in that regard (according to our cultural norms), but it shows how desperate and beaten down they were that they were training little kids how to attack with sticks. I think the majority of their military might was used up by then.

I read something interesting, in the years before the war, the culture in Japan became quite brutal and militaristic where formerly it wasn't nearly that bad. This seems to happen to various countries from time to time.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-16   23:12:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#393. To: scooter (#389)

am not the author of my previous post. Source is Here. I forgot to put that link in

Scooter,

I have come to realize in a very short time that you are rarely the ACTUAL author of things that you post.

You can't speak for yourself, it seems.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   23:24:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#394. To: Diana (#390)

I still think there is a universal morality,

Ok.

Name ONE thing that is UNIVERSALLY morally wrong.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   23:25:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#395. To: All (#394)

I still think there is a universal morality, Ok.

Name ONE thing that is UNIVERSALLY morally wrong

You see, Diana,

All that needs be done to disprove whatever you might try to offer is to find ONE person who disagrees. Then it is not UNIVERSAL, just WIDELY ACCEPTED.

"There are 10 the 11th power stars in the galaxy. That used to be a huge number. But it's only a hundred billion. It's less than the national deficit! We used to call them astronomical numbers. Now we should call them economical numbers." ----Richard Feynman
"THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT, IN ANY SENSE, FOUNDED ON THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION." ----1796 Treaty of Tripoli — initiated by George Washington and signed into law by John Adams

Feynman Lives!  posted on  2006-02-16   23:26:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#396. To: tom007, Feynman (#232)

You COLULD have generated a useful dialogue here on the history truthfulness of the bible, but I don't think that was ever your intent.

You got it, tom. Feuman's mission in life is to feel important.

Every jerk is full of his own importamce.

Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.

Zoroaster  posted on  2006-02-16   23:43:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#397. To: Feynman Lives! (#394)

Name ONE thing that is UNIVERSALLY morally wrong.

Only drinking a dozen beers every night. Thats bad. Very morally wrong. You need to drink at LEAST two dozen. Oh, killing your mother and your children, drying them and making them into beef jerky, then selling them at a below market price. That's really bad too.

tom007  posted on  2006-02-16   23:58:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#398. To: Feynman Lives! (#394)

Name ONE thing that is UNIVERSALLY morally wrong.

Killing your father, screwing your mother and eating your kids. Most folks would agree about that.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-17   0:41:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#399. To: Feynman Lives! (#394)

Name ONE thing that is UNIVERSALLY morally wrong.

Rape. Incest. Pedophilia. Watching TLBSHOW at a buffet table.

"Life is tough. Life is tougher if you're stupid." - John Wayne
"The ignorance of one voter in a democracy impairs the security of all." - John F. Kennedy

82Marine89  posted on  2006-02-17   0:43:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#400. To: Feynman Lives! (#395)

All that needs be done to disprove whatever you might try to offer is to find ONE person who disagrees.

The one person who disagrees is probably insane. So what?

What you don't seem to understand about morals, or the Bible or much else, is that a community of people need to come up with some rules to live by and be guided by or they cannot exist as a community. Morals, whether Biblical or otherwise, evolved out of the experiences of people over hundreds if not thousands of years of what kinds of behaviors produced good and desirable results in their communities, and what kinds of behaviors produced undesirable or negative results in their communities. Actions or policies or philosophies that undermined or weakened the community. Sometimes it takes years, decades or even a generation or two to see the effects of a policy. It's not always like eating the wrong berry and dying - it might be more like a subtle poison that takes a long time to kill off a people.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-17   0:48:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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