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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Making Islam Illegal -- Is It The West's Only Choice?
Source: www.renewamerica.us
URL Source: http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/huston/060219
Published: Feb 19, 2006
Author: Warner Todd Huston
Post Date: 2006-02-20 11:28:07 by Mind_Virus
Keywords: Illegal, Choice?, Making
Views: 1022
Comments: 108

Making Islam Illegal -- Is It The West's Only Choice?

Warner Todd Huston February 19, 2006

When President Bush gave his "axis of evil" speech he went out of his way to make the world understand that it isn't a war with Islam itself that we were joining — and I say joining because the war had been started by the Jihadists decades before. And, in observance to our Western principles, that must be the correct way to view our conflagration with radical Islam.

Let's face facts, it certainly is uncomfortable to a Westerner who has been brought up on tolerance, freedom of religion, and liberty to contemplate a war against an entire religion. But are we approaching a time when Western nations won't have a choice but to target Islam itself in certain ways to keep their own people safe. The best course of action is to make public displays of Islam and certain of its practices illegal in Western nations.

So, the question becomes are we at that time now? Are we fast approaching a time when Mosques will be closed and banned? Have we come to a time when Islamic literature is turned away from our borders? Have the childish and dangerous reactions of Muslims to this cartoon in a Danish newspaper proven that Islam cannot be trusted to be a vital, peaceful, and law-abiding segment of society?

It is looking like yes is the answer to these queries.

We are already approaching this today. In Ontario they have officially outlawed Muslim Sharia law, that law that uses religious precepts to enforce moral and society codes of conduct. And Muslim "family councils" have been stopped where local community groups may supplement Canadian law with their local custom.

Several members of the John Howard administration in Australia have spoken out against Islamic clashes with Western notions of law and societal comportment many times over the last few years.

Recently Howard himself said, "I do think there is this particular complication because there is a fragment which is utterly antagonistic to our kind of society, and that is a difficulty ... You can't find any equivalent in Italian, or Greek, or Lebanese, or Chinese or Baltic immigration to Australia. There is no equivalent of raving on about jihad, but that is the major problem."

Muslims routinely destroy property, threaten death and bodily harm to those who speak out against them, and they constantly fund terrorism throughout the world. In Syria they have burnt an embassy, in Europe Muslims have been responsible for murdering people who have written out against Islam or made movies, and other forms of art. These actions are also approved by Islamic teachers (Imams) and religious leaders, not just undertaken by warped loners claiming to represent Islam quite against the will of the majority or authority.

With this ridiculous cartoon issue, we have seen that Islam has no sense of perspective. In the west parody or satire is seen as not only common, but completely harmless for the most part. And religion is not immune to parody and satire, though even in the west most people are often uncomfortable with religious satire. Usually only people filled with hate attack religion in parody and most in the West instinctively know this. As a result, most people dismiss such parody as foolishness and bad taste.

But with Muslims overreacting — in western eyes at least — to this silly cartoon issue in the way they have, it becomes nearly impossible for Westerners to view Islam as a peaceful religion, but more as a vicious hate group itself. And that perception is justified with the actions that Muslims have increasingly perpetrated over the ensuing years. So, we find that Islam presents a danger to the safety of the populace all too often. It is violent, oppressive, and reactionary.

But, what is to be done about it? We have been raised to feel that religion should be left untouched by government. Freedom of religion is at the very core of our beliefs. And this concept is an important one to uphold. So, how can we honestly and without hypocrisy begin to look toward making Islam illegal?

There is a parallel of sorts in the USA that might be used as a template for action. The Ku klux Klan.

After the Civil War ended, the KKK arose from the ashes of war as an advocacy group for the disenfranchised white voter in the south. But it quickly became a terrorist organization bent on taking out revenge on the south's newly freed black population for having lost the war. It got so bad that even one of the original organizers, C.S. Cavalry General Nathan Bedford Forrest, denounced the organization and quit it in disgust.

But as the late 1800s rolled on and the south began to re-enter the Union as full partners in government, the KKK began to lose steam and prominence. For a time it subsided. But as the 20th century neared, it re-emerged and this time became a nationwide and powerful force taking on the flavor of religious, civic and racial duty. The KKK became invested in government and claimed millions of members nation wide.

In the 1920s, however, it became too much for a liberty loving country to allow the KKK to any longer exist. In Indiana, the entire state government was scandalized by their fealty to Indiana's Klan leader who had raped and beaten his secretary on a train trip. Violence against and frequent lynching of southern blacks became so pervasive that Congress finally acted and banned the Klan. The organization collapsed never again to reclaim the power and prominence it once had.

Now, the KKK has always based its precepts on Christianity, as well as racial identity. It also reacted with violence, rallies, death threats and killing when it was threatened. It careened far away from being a mere "idea" or religious theology and became a terrorist organization. And it became a terrorist organization even though literally millions of Americans that belonged to or identified with the Klan were not themselves violent, evil, or dangerous citizens.

The leadership of the Klan supported violence. The leadership preached violence. The leadership planned and fomented it. Therefore, it had to go because it became a danger to every law-abiding citizen, whether they agreed with the racial and religious concepts the Klan espoused or not.

Islam has become the KKK of the 21st century. The sooner we awake to this truth and take steps to ban the religion, or somehow curtail its pernicious influence the better. The west is going to have to put sever restrictions on Islamic Mosques and public display of Islam. Further, devout Muslims should not be allowed to hold public office (though it certainly should not become a racial issue — sins of the father should not be visited upon the sons).

This is no religious purge as in centuries past. In the past religions were banned to be replaced by the state sponsored sect and believers of the banned religion were mistreated, tortured, unduly taxed, and terrorized. This is absolutely not the model the west would follow by banning aspects of Islam today. No religion is replacing Islam and no one is suggesting that Muslims be mistreated. But the creed to which they hold is fast becoming the most dangerous one in the world today. It is a fine line that we walk to consider banning Islam, but the safety of society is at risk not to do so.

This is not an easy conclusion at which to arrive. But if we continue to turn a blind eye to the danger that Islam presents to the west, we are signing our own death warrants.

The KKK was put down in the USA and made powerless for the same reason. Communism was destroyed for the same reason, as well. Islam is a danger to the world.

Unfortunately, it is just that simple.

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#1. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

THere's a much simpler solution than that. Recognize that our cultures are incompatible and that they will never assimilate into their host countries (the bulk of them anyway) and the only real answer is to stop them from coming into the country (whatever country) and deport the ones who are already here. This would work both here and in EUrope but if we're gonna do something, we have to do it fast as it's very hard to try to deport people who were actually born and/or raised in a particular country.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-20   11:30:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

Well, there's always burning at the stake, and the little ones we can simply tie them in canvas bags and drown them like kittens.

Muslims routinely destroy property, threaten death and bodily harm to those who speak out against them, and they constantly fund terrorism throughout the world.
I'm having trouble remembering the last time Muslims dropped napalm on my neighborhood, a practice at which the US has become quite adept. Maybe if we quit doing that they'd calm down a bit.

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-20   11:44:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Dakmar (#2)

The KKK was put down in the USA and made powerless for the same reason. Communism was destroyed for the same reason, as well. Islam is a danger to the world.

Talk about non-sequitur, AND WHEN was Communism destroyed, I missed that somehow.

"War is a way of shattering to pieces...materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses... too intelligent." ~George Orwell

robin  posted on  2006-02-20   12:07:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Dakmar (#2)

Basically I agree with you. We've done nothing but agitate the Muslim world and then we demonize them when they fight back in whatever manner they can. I don't hate the Muslims, but I do recognize that our cultures are incompatible - at least for the foreseeable future. I know that Europe in particular allowed Muslim immigration so they could exploit cheap labor, just as we do with Mexicans, but there is a price to be paid for that. The price is perpetual internal warfare with an imported underclass. This is not wise....

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-20   12:07:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: robin (#3)

Talk about non-sequitur, AND WHEN was Communism destroyed, I missed that somehow.

Communism was destroyed? This gentleman hasn't been in a public school or on a college campus lately...

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   12:30:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: mehitable (#4)

The price is perpetual internal warfare with an imported underclass. This is not wise....

Understatement of the year...I feel sorry for the children of America, who will be at war for the rest of their lives.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   12:32:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

Gee the bullshit just keeps coming..

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   12:37:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: robin (#3)

Talk about non-sequitur, AND WHEN was Communism destroyed, I missed that somehow.

The moment Bush I said it was, silly. They create their own reality, remember?

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-20   12:49:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

I see no solution to this problem except to expell Muslims from the United States and Europe. And while we're at it, Mexicans, too, from the U.S.

It's not because I hate them, either. Different tribes cannot share the same land without fighting, so it's best to separate them.

"I aim to misbehave" -- Mal Reynolds, Firefly

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-02-20   12:52:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Zipporah (#7)

What B.S. are you talking about? Banning a religion or banning certain practices of a religion.? Sorry i'm not following your reference.

There are basic tenets of Islam which, if lived out, would destroy every other religion/philosophy/culture which isn't it. This is Allah's will and explicit command. Bottom line is that Isalm as taught by its founder, mohammed, is seditious is the truest sense of the word. Also, the pracitce, again with mohammed as the example and law-giver, of multiple wives and sex slavery cannot be tolerated in western cultures so that a muslim is prohibed by non-islamic laws from fully practicing their religion. True beliver-muslims cannot tolerate being dominated by another religious or nonreligious system. The hateful sharia laws are another example of islamic religion that cannot be allowed in western cultures.

That being said, it only muddies the conversation to point out that we dropped napalm on asia villiages and as a nation support a thoroughly wicked government who has done/is doing dispicable things to muslims and others all over the world. One more thing, not all muslims, as we all know, are true believers and wish to live under the restrictions and insanity of islam but are unwilling to shed themselves of their islamic identity. Live and let such people live just as we do the deluded warmongering fundamentalist christians who want to take over the government, but haven't yet resorted to violence that i'm aware of. Freedom of thought, not always freedom of action is the american way.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   13:01:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: fatidic (#10)

What B.S. are you talking about? Banning a religion or banning certain practices of a religion.? Sorry i'm not following your reference.

There are basic tenets of Islam which, if lived out, would destroy every other religion/philosophy/culture which isn't it. This is Allah's will and explicit command. Bottom line is that Isalm as taught by its founder, mohammed, is seditious is the truest sense of the word. Also, the pracitce, again with mohammed as the example and law-giver, of multiple wives and sex slavery cannot be tolerated in western cultures so that a muslim is prohibed by non-islamic laws from fully practicing their religion. True beliver-muslims cannot tolerate being dominated by another religious or nonreligious system. The hateful sharia laws are another example of islamic religion that cannot be allowed in western cultures.

That being said, it only muddies the conversation to point out that we dropped napalm on asia villiages and as a nation support a thoroughly wicked government who has done/is doing dispicable things to muslims and others all over the world. One more thing, not all muslims, as we all know, are true believers and wish to live under the restrictions and insanity of islam but are unwilling to shed themselves of their islamic identity. Live and let such people live just as we do the deluded warmongering fundamentalist christians who want to take over the government, but haven't yet resorted to violence that i'm aware of. Freedom of thought, not always freedom of action is the american way.

The bullshit that I'm talking about is this.. The propaganda about Islam is at a fever's pitch.. You could say close to the same thing about Christianity.. What this article espouses is absolutely against our Constitution.. if we don't defend the right of others to practice their religion ..then whose next??

I suggest reading this article from Robert Fisk regarding the anti-Islam propaganda:

Robert Fisk: "Muhammad Cartoons" - Anti-Islam Propaganda by jo swift at 08:37PM (CET) on February 6, 2006 | Permanent Link | Cosmos DON'T BE FOOLED, THIS ISN'T AN ISSUE OF ISLAM VERSUS SECULARISM

So now it's cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed with a bomb-shaped turban.

Ambassadors are withdrawn from Denmark, Gulf nations clear their shelves of Danish produce, Gaza gunmen threaten the European Union.

In Denmark, Fleming Rose, the "culture" editor of the pip-squeak newspaper which published these silly cartoons - last September, for heaven's sake - announces that we are witnessing a "clash of civilisations" between secular Western democracies and Islamic societies.

This does prove, I suppose, that Danish journalists follow in the tradition of Hans Christian Anderson. Oh lordy, lordy. What we're witnessing is the childishness of civilisations.

So let's start off with the Department of Home Truths. This is not an issue of secularism versus Islam.

For Muslims, the Prophet is the man who received divine words directly from God. We see our prophets as faintly historical figures, at odds with our high-tech human rights, almost cariacatures of themselves.

The fact is that Muslims live their religion. We do not. They have kept their faith through innumerable historical vicissitudes. We have lost our faith ever since Matthew Arnold wrote about the sea's "long, withdrawing roar".

That's why we talk about "the West versus Islam" rather than "Christians versus Islam" - because there aren't an awful lot of Christians left in Europe. There is no way we can get round this by setting up all the other world religions and asking why we are not allowed to make fun of Mohamed.

Besides, we can exercise our own hypocrisy over religious feelings. I happen to remember how, more than a decade ago, a film called The Last Temptation of Christ showed Jesus making love to a woman. In Paris, someone set fire to the cinema showing the movie, killing a young man.

I also happen to remember a US university which invited me to give a lecture three years ago. I did. It was entitled "September 11, 2001: ask who did it but, for God's sake, don't ask why".

When I arrived, I found that the university had deleted the phrase "for God's sake" because "we didn't want to offend certain sensibilities". Ah-ha, so we have "sensibilities" too.

In other words, while we claim that Muslims must be good secularists when it comes to free speech - or cheap cartoons - we can worry about adherents to our own precious religion just as much.

I also enjoyed the pompous claims of European statesmen that they cannot control free speech or newspapers. This is also nonsense.

Had that cartoon of the Prophet shown instead a chief rabbi with a bomb-shaped hat, we would have had "anti-Semitism" screamed into our ears - and rightly so - just as we often hear the Israelis complain about anti-Semitic cartoons in Egyptian newspapers.

Furthermore, in some European nations - France is one, Germany and Austria are among the others - it is forbidden by law to deny acts of genocide.

In France, for example, it is illegal to say that the Jewish Holocaust or the Armenian Holocaust did not happen. So it is, in fact, impermissable to make certain statements in European nations.

I'm still uncertain whether these laws attain their objectives; however much you may prescribe Holocaust denial, anti-Semites will always try to find a way round.

We can hardly exercise our political restraints to prevent Holocaust deniers and then start screaming about secularism when we find that Muslims object to our provocative and insulting image of the Prophet.

For many Muslims, the "Islamic" reaction to this affair is an embarrassment. There is good reason to believe that Muslims would like to see some element of reform introduced to their religion.

If this cartoon had advanced the cause of those who want to debate this issue, no-one would have minded. But it was clearly intended to be provocative. It was so outrageous that it only caused reaction.

And this is not a great time to heat up the old Samuel Huntingdon garbage about a "clash of civilisations". Iran now has a clerical government again.

So, to all intents and purposes, does Iraq (which was not supposed to end up with a democratically elected clerical administration, but that's what happens when you topple dictators).

In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood won 20 per cent of the seats in the recent parliamentary elections. Now we have Hamas in charge of "Palestine".

There's a message here, isn't there? That America's policies - "regime change" in the Middle East - are not achieving their ends. These millions of voters were preferring Islam to the corrupt regimes which we imposed on them.

For the Danish cartoon to be dumped on top of this fire is dangerous indeed.

In any event, it's not about whether the Prophet should be pictured. The Koran does not forbid images of the Prophet even though millions of Muslims do.

The problem is that these cartoons portrayed Mohamed as a bin Laden-type image of violence. They portrayed Islam as a violent religion. It is not. Or do we want to make it so?

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   13:08:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: fatidic (#10)

There are basic tenets of Islam which, if lived out, would destroy every other religion/philosophy/culture which isn't it. This is Allah's will and explicit command.

At some point; Muslims will outnumber Christians and Jews in this country. Does anyone REALLY believe the Muslims will allow those minority Christians and Jews to practice their religious beliefs under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution?

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   13:21:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: who knows what evil (#12)

At some point; Muslims will outnumber Christians and Jews in this country. Does anyone REALLY believe the Muslims will allow those minority Christians and Jews to practice their religious beliefs under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution?

We are a nation of laws.. and a Constitution although our president says it's a goddamned piece of paper..This is about protecting the rights of others in order to protect ourselves..

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   13:27:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Mind_Virus (#0)

I didn't read the entire article because my reaction to the first couple of paragraphs is this. This is Minority Report--iow, thought crime philosophy pure and simple. Not only that, but it is antithetical to what America was intended to be.

christine  posted on  2006-02-20   13:35:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Zipporah (#13)

We are a nation of laws.. and a Constitution although our president says it's a goddamned piece of paper..This is about protecting the rights of others in order to protect ourselves..

I'm quite clear on that...my question is "Will a Muslim majority UPHOLD those Constitutional laws?"

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   13:45:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: who knows what evil (#15)

I'm quite clear on that...my question is "Will a Muslim majority UPHOLD those Constitutional laws?"

How do we know? One problem as I see it is.. that what we have read about Islam is not from muslims themselves but rather from non-muslims. Much probably taken out of context.. just as there are many things in the bible sound pretty outrageous..

Exodus 21:15

15"Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.

Leviticus 24:14

14"Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him.

Exodus 21:16

16"Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death.

Leviticus 21:9

9"'If a priest's daughter defiles herself by becoming a prostitute, she disgraces her father; she must be burned in the fire.

Leviticus 20:10

10"'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

23If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death--the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   13:59:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Zipporah (#16)

The propaganda about Islam is at a fever's pitch.. You could say close to the same thing about Christianity.. What this article espouses is absolutely against our Constitution.. if we don't defend the right of others to practice their religion ..then whose next??

To: who knows what evil

I'm quite clear on that...my question is "Will a Muslim majority UPHOLD those Constitutional laws?" How do we know? One problem as I see it is.. that what we have read about Islam is not from muslims themselves but rather from non-muslims. Much probably taken out of context.. just as there are many things in the bible sound pretty outrageous..

Zip, i think you are mixing up a lot of info that isn't clarifying the question of whether certain islamic practices should be banned by non-islamic countries. If this is not the issue then i have not understood the thrust of the article which, i know, asked if the religion itself should be banned, but which i narrowed to banning certain islamic pracitices since i don't think any of us would advocate banning an entire religion and that would be a short discussion indeed. Also, if you get your info about islam from sympathic sources of true believers you will have quite enough cause to feel alarmed, if not disguested. So forget the propaganda and look at the facts.

Listing a lot of Old Testament Scripture isn't helping to clarifying the dicussion either as the basic difference between a practicing orthodox jew and a practicing orthodox muslim has to do with a little thing called world domination with the former not being interested in and the latter being keen on. If you do not understand this then i'm sorry to say that you are ignorant of islamic history, mohammed's life and teachings and current events, no offense intended. Now i ask you, where are fundamentalist jews running around (outside of israel, of course) trying to take over governments and killing people because mosas is dissed?

As to the whether a muslim will uphold the u.s. constitution the answer is maybe, but you can't depend on it if they are on a religious mission to (there is a islamic term for hiding one's true intentions in order to take over the government and another for lying to non-muslims in the service of allah) take over. Besides, Zip, you're question ignores a basic fact that the u.s. constitution does not violate the basic tenets of christianity per se, while it must be acknowledged that it is in conflict with islamic principlesm e.g. freedom of speech, religion, the press and so on.

Once again i must ask what is wrong with banning certain islamic practices which contridict western laws? All religions must be subject to the same laws which should not be waived because there is a vile propaganda war going on to demonize muslims.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   14:28:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: who knows what evil, Zipphora (#12)

At some point; Muslims will outnumber Christians and Jews in this country. Does anyone REALLY believe the Muslims will allow those minority Christians and Jews to practice their religious beliefs under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution?

As dr. phil might say, the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. So the answer to your question is an obvious "NO".

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   14:32:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Zipporah (#16)

I'm not aware of any Christians practicing these Biblical laws anywhere on earth at the present moment; even the more 'radical' ones like Fred Phelps (who I personally think has some 'issues'; to say the least.) However, there are NUMEROUS examples of Muslims executing Christians simply because they profess a belief in Christ. Christians are frequently arrested in the Middle East for distributing Bibles. Why should it be any different here under eventual Muslim rule? I don't think it will be. Hopefully, I won't live long enough to find out.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   14:42:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: who knows what evil (#19)

Christians are frequently arrested in the Middle East for distributing Bibles.

And Israel. And Bush's best buds China.

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-20   14:44:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: who knows what evil (#12)

Does anyone REALLY believe the Muslims will allow those minority Christians and Jews to practice their religious beliefs under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution?

We're in far greater danger from the Noahide Laws that are now part of American jurisprudence than we are from Sharia. There's only one penalty for transgression of the Noahide Laws: death.

Feneration is slow death of community and culture.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-02-20   14:53:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Dakmar (#20)

And Israel. And Bush's best buds China.

No argument there.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   14:54:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: who knows what evil (#15)

I'm quite clear on that...my question is "Will a Muslim majority UPHOLD those Constitutional laws?"

The nominal Christians, The Neocons, the Jews and the non-belivers that currently have the helm are proving that they won't. Let's get rid of the snakes in the house by any means necessary first and then worry about the wolves on the farawy plains.

Feneration is slow death of community and culture.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-02-20   14:56:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Zipporah (#7)

Gee the bullshit just keeps coming..

Nothing else can be expected from barnyard animals.

Feneration is slow death of community and culture.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-02-20   14:57:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: bluegrass (#21)

We're in far greater danger from the Noahide Laws that are now part of American jurisprudence than we are from Sharia. There's only one penalty for transgression of the Noahide Laws: death.

At this point in time; that is probably true. I never implied that there weren't other threats that we might succumb to BEFORE Muslims became a majority...my questions had nothing to do with those possibiities...my question speculated what might happen to us under a MUSLIM majority. Simple as that.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   14:58:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: who knows what evil (#25)

my question speculated what might happen to us under a MUSLIM majority

Your question is meaningless. It's like asking, "Gee, what if this were a flood?" while the house was on fire.

Feneration is slow death of community and culture.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-02-20   15:02:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: bluegrass (#26)

Your question is meaningless.

Sorry...just a long-term thinker. You're right...since I don't have children or grandchildren; I won't have to worry about what might happen to them under Muslim rule. Forget I mentioned it. Meaningless.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   15:07:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: fatidic (#17)

That is exactly what I was addressing the proposal of the article. I do not get my information from any pro-Islamic sources.. I made the statement from observation of what people have said both in forums and on TV and radio.. You dont think there is a propanda campaign against Islam? Read this: Taxpayer dollars for anti-Islam propaganda in Iraq

Listing a lot of Old Testament Scripture isn't helping to clarifying the dicussion either as the basic difference between a practicing orthodox jew and a practicing orthodox muslim has to do with a little thing called world domination with the former not being interested in and the latter being keen on. If you do not understand this then i'm sorry to say that you are ignorant of islamic history, mohammed's life and teachings and current events, no offense intended. Now i ask you, where are fundamentalist jews running around (outside of israel, of course) trying to take over governments and killing people because mosas is dissed?

The listing of OT scripture was done for one purpose.. to show that there are scriptures in the bible that do compare to those that many cite as proof that Islam is evil... compare those scriptures with some that people cite re Islam not much different. And regarding world domination.. there was no real problem with Islam in this century other until the west meddled... And don't cite bin Laden and 9/11 for if you knew the history of bin Laden and the US, you'd well understand his connection with the CIA. Did you read the Fisk article? Do you understand just WHO published the articles in the Jyllands-Posten and what his connections are?? Do you know anything about the plight of the Palestinians and here http://www.anglicanjournal.com/127/02/af01.html (there are too many links to include here at this time)?? I do know the history of the middle east and Islam .. I'm not advocating their belief system.. what I am advocating for is MY freedom is in jeopardy whenever OTHERS' freedom is in jeopardy

As to the whether a muslim will uphold the u.s. constitution the answer is maybe, but you can't depend on it if they are on a religious mission to (there is a islamic term for hiding one's true intentions in order to take over the government and another for lying to non-muslims in the service of allah) take over. Besides, Zip, you're question ignores a basic fact that the u.s. constitution does not violate the basic tenets of christianity per se, while it must be acknowledged that it is in conflict with islamic principlesm e.g. freedom of speech, religion, the press and so on.

So you're basically saying is you are in favor of preemptive strikes against an entire religion and race due to what they MAY do?? So we just toss out the Constitution?? Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. As I said and I'll repeat it.. if we dont protect the rights of ALL then our rights are in jeopardy.

And how may I ask is Islam against freedom of the press?? Are you going to cite the issues regarding the cartoons? Again I'll refer you to looking into just who Flemming Rose is.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   15:10:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: YertleTurtle (#9)

I see no solution to this problem except to expell Muslims from the United States and Europe. And while we're at it, Mexicans, too, from the U.S.

It's not because I hate them, either. Different tribes cannot share the same land without fighting, so it's best to separate them.

You're right, of course. This is what used to pass for common sense. Now reality is held hostage to ideology. We're going to destroy Western civilization if we keep up this pretense that we are all somehow the same.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-20   15:13:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: mehitable, YertleTurtle (#29)

If we could just kick out those who brought us the concepts of multi- culturalism and "celebrating diversity" the other problems would take care of themselves.

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-20   15:16:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: mehitable (#29)

We're going to destroy Western civilization if we keep up this pretense that we are all somehow the same.

Too late...America's best days are behind her. We have five years, tops.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   15:17:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: who knows what evil, fatidic (#27)

I don't think it's Muslim rule we need fear. It's the Luceriferian NWO rule we should fear. This criticism of various religions is nothing but a diversionary and divisive tactic to remove the focus from who is the real enemy.

christine  posted on  2006-02-20   15:19:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: bluegrass (#24)

Nothing else can be expected from barnyard animals.

LOL!..

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   15:21:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: who knows what evil (#31)

I agree - I think we've passed the point of no return. Not just with the illegals, but with everything. We see new scandals and outrages breaking almost every day now. The NO levees are like a metaphor for the entire country (and Europe too) - the dams are cracking and we're running out of fingers.

My advice to people at this point is prepare yourself and your loved ones to be the remnant that survives. Learn how to grow, prepare, can your own food and learn where you can find potable water. Arm yourself and try to get shelter you can control. Get rid of as much debt as possible. Try to figure out you can trust out of a small group and what kinds of skills you can trade. Learn basic carpentry, plumbing, sewing - things like that. The curtain of the Dark Ages is falling.

mehitable  posted on  2006-02-20   15:22:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Dakmar (#30)

f we could just kick out those who brought us the concepts of multi- culturalism and "celebrating diversity" the other problems would take care of themselves.

Isnt that the truth?!.. Gause's Law playing itself out.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   15:22:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: mehitable (#34)

My advice to people at this point is prepare yourself and your loved ones to be the remnant that survives.

We share the same perspective. Good luck.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   15:37:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: christine, mehitable (#32)

I don't think it's Muslim rule we need fear.

I don't fear anyone's rule...my question was speculation, simple as that. I'm taking the advice of 'mehitable'. Good luck to all!

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   15:41:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Zipporah (#28)

Zip, i hardly know where to begin. It seems i have not made myself clear so let me try again so that whatever we may disagree about is what we really disagree about and not a misreading or misunderstanding of what is written. Mainly i want you to understand that i do not believe any religion is immune to violating the life, liberty or freedoms of others that our constitution protects and that each is free to practice whatever one believes as long as the practices do not violate our laws or seek to overthrow our constitution.

I am for freedom of religion and support entirely the first admendment without reservation. The question is, which i don't think you have answered, is the first admendment in conflict with islam? The answer is a resounding yes. How you ask? Islam forbids, and i've read these verses in the koran myself, absolutely any criticism of mohammed, allah and islam. Mohammed, in fact, killed many people because they made fun of him.

It is suicide to protect a religion in its entirety whose main purpose for existence is to destroy everything that isn't it. So, once again, i hope you will not put silly words in my mouth about preemptive strikes against an entire religion, and keep in mind that i advocate limiting certain practices of islam which conflict with our laws and the first admendment. That also means that i will exercise my freedoms and responsibilities to speak against islam and the vile practices of mohammed and hope that i would not be killed for practicing the first admendment in america.

Bad behavior on america's part toward demonizing muslims does not absolve islam/muslims for crimes this religion advocates, on yes, and actually carries out by true believers.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   15:46:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Zipporah (#11)

Had that cartoon of the Prophet shown instead a chief rabbi with a bomb-shaped hat, we would have had "anti-Semitism" screamed into our ears - and rightly so - just as we often hear the Israelis complain about anti-Semitic cartoons in Egyptian newspapers.

Zip, i hope you can see what evidently Fisk did not as illustrated by his quote above, and that is that the anti-semitic screaming of jews to cartoons of ridicule is by order of magnitude a different response than the islamic response of blood-letting and property-destroying violence all over the world! Actions, as they say, speak louder than words.

Now, i will have to continue this conversation later tonight as i have much work to do. Cheers.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   15:56:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: christine (#32)

I don't think it's Muslim rule we need fear. It's the Luceriferian NWO rule we should fear. This criticism of various religions is nothing but a diversionary and divisive tactic to remove the focus from who is the real enemy.

What makes you think we have only one enemy, or that, if we do have just one enemy that he limits himself to manifesting in only one form on only one front? Seems a false choice to me.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   15:59:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: fatidic (#39)

Zip, i hope you can see what evidently Fisk did not as illustrated by his quote above, and that is that the anti-semitic screaming of jews to cartoons of ridicule is by order of magnitude a different response than the islamic response of blood-letting and property-destroying violence all over the world! Actions, as they say, speak louder than words.

Now, i will have to continue this conversation later tonight as i have much work to do. Cheers.

What Fisk left out is that those people would be in jail if they lived in the EU.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   16:06:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: fatidic (#39)

i hope you can see what evidently Fisk did not as illustrated by his quote above, and that is that the anti-semitic screaming of jews to cartoons of ridicule is by order of magnitude a different response than the islamic response of blood-letting and property-destroying violence all over the world!

The Zionists are responsible for more than their share of bloodletting and property destruction, how many Palistinean homes and farms have been destroyed or seized, you suppose?

Jews living in Muslim countries have more rights, relative to the rest of the population, than Muslims living in Israel.

The perptrator of the worst genocide ever is the United States.

Just a few things to consider.

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-20   16:15:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Zipporah (#41)

What Fisk left out is that those people would be in jail if they lived in the EU.

And rightly so. Lawbreakers should be punished even if they claim their god made them do it. Just as if jews try to stone an adultress and claim religious exemption from murder, they should be held to account by the laws of the land. And if mormons practice polygamy or jehovah's witnesses refuse life-saving blood transfusions to their children, they all should be held to account for the laws they are breaking.

But back to the subject of islam being a religion that has an unusally high number of requirements/tenets that put them at odds with western civilization (deeply flawed though it is), what purpose is served by avoiding this conclusion?

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   19:26:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: fatidic (#40)

Seems a false choice to me.

Indeed. However, many still feel that the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Not in this case. NWO and Muslims are BOTH bad news. End of story.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   19:29:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Dakmar (#42)

Are you trying to absolve one lawbreaking group by listing the lawbreaking of other groups? This tactic veers us off the subject and seems to imply that anyone taking a critical look at the tenets of islam and mohammed's life as the perfect muslim had better shut up if heshe is a jew or american.

Well, i say that we can/should criticize islam and even ourselves and our own government, and if apply a single non-hypocritical standard without malice that such criticism is necessary and beneficial. Let the crumbled cookie speak for itself!

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   19:38:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: who knows what evil (#27)

since I don't have children or grandchildren; I won't have to worry about what might happen to them under Muslim rule.

You're obviously unfamiliar with government and history. Dominant minorities holding power are the rule, not the exception. The current dominant minority will never allow any majority to take power.

Brush up on your Toynbee.

Feneration is slow death of community and culture.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-02-20   19:39:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: fatidic (#45)

i say that we can/should criticize islam and even ourselves and our own government,

When Muslims are running the Federal Reserve and Homeland Security, we might have something to worry about. As it is, Jews have those august institutions firmly in hand.

Feneration is slow death of community and culture.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-02-20   19:42:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: fatidic (#43)

And rightly so. Lawbreakers should be punished even if they claim their god made them do it. Just as if jews try to stone an adultress and claim religious exemption from murder, they should be held to account by the laws of the land. And if mormons practice polygamy or jehovah's witnesses refuse life-saving blood transfusions to their children, they all should be held to account for the laws they are breaking.

But back to the subject of islam being a religion that has an unusally high number of requirements/tenets that put them at odds with western civilization (deeply flawed though it is), what purpose is served by avoiding this conclusion?

So you advocate thought police? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying? Now it's one thing regarding the issue of minors and their health.. but quite another regarding policing what people think.

What is your purpose in believing that the Constitution should be ignored? Are you in agreement with what Bush said in regard to it? Where does it stop? Buddism is at odds with western thought.. what about Judaism?? What of Shintoism? What of any of dozens of other religions? Where does it end? Once the Pandora's box is opened it can't be closed again.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   19:45:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: who knows what evil (#44)

However, many still feel that the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

I dont believe that in any way shape or form. My issue is one and one only.. The Constitution.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   19:47:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: who knows what evil, christine (#44)

NWO and Muslims are BOTH bad news. End of story.

I would make the distinction that practicing, fundamentalist muslims are bad news, though many that i've met are quite likeable and hospitable. I doubt that christine has ever had to live under the oppression that non-muslims experience in the countries where islam rules. It's really weird that islam seems to make otherwise normal, intelligent, good natured people insane when certain buttons are pushed. It's really, really scary.

P.S. moonies, and jehovah's witnesses are also bad news, IMO, but at least they don't want to overthrow the government that i know of or destroy our traditions. We're doing a good enough job of that ourselves and don't need any help, thank you.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   19:47:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: bluegrass (#46)

The current dominant minority will never allow any majority to take power.

You're right...there aren't any examples of that happening anywhere in world history.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   19:52:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: fatidic (#50)

...jehovah's witnesses are also bad news...

No kidding...a couple of them tried to burn my house down the other night when I politely declined a copy of Watchtower.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   19:55:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: fatidic (#50)

I doubt that christine has ever had to live under the oppression that non-muslims experience in the countries where islam rules. It's really weird that islam seems to make otherwise normal, intelligent, good natured people insane when certain buttons are pushed.

Muslims are muslims because they chose to be.. we have no business involving ourselves in their affairs in those countries whether it be due to what our view of what their countries should be politically or religiously.. Are you in agreement with democracy building in other countries?

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   19:55:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Zipporah (#48)

Where did you read that i'm in favor of thought control police? I thought i was consistent and clear in speaking of the harm that comes from practicing, (that's an overt act, doncha know?) a religious tenet that violates the law and the constitution. I've never written, nor has the thought even entered my mind that we should prevent people from thinking and believing what they want (unlike allah's forbidding that a human has the right to follow ones conscience--just had to throw this pesky fact in the sentence).

What did i write that made you think that i think the constitution should be ignored??--i am dylexic you know, so it's possible i turned my words inside out.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   20:00:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: who knows what evil (#52)

...jehovah's witnesses are also bad news...

No kidding...a couple of them tried to burn my house down the other night when I politely declined a copy of Watchtower.

Does anyone know if the JWs received in reparations from the holocaust? I think the Nazis targeted them just because they are sooo annoying. I mean, I imagine they were just as zealous then as now. They're stuck on the # 144,000; a major limitation to their membership, I should think.

"War is a way of shattering to pieces...materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses... too intelligent." ~George Orwell

robin  posted on  2006-02-20   20:01:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: fatidic (#54)

Possibly I'm misundestanding what your position is.. what exactly is it that you are advocating?

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   20:02:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: fatidic (#50)

I doubt that christine has ever had to live under the oppression that non-muslims experience in the countries where islam rules.

you're quite right. i live now under the oppression of a corrupt ever increasing tyrannical U S GOVERNMENT though.

christine  posted on  2006-02-20   20:04:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: fatidic (#57)

and, btw, that has nothing to do with any religion.

christine  posted on  2006-02-20   20:05:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: fatidic (#50)

I would make the distinction that practicing, fundamentalist muslims are bad news, though many that i've met are quite likeable and hospitable.

Old joke...Lone Ranger and Tonto, pursued by hundreds of hostile Indians, ride into a canyon, hoping to lose their pursuers among the rocks and caves. It turns out to be a box canyon; no exit, no way out. The Ranger and Tonto dismount, and take refuge among the rocks, but to no avail. Hostile Indians are everywhere; the canyon entrance, the surrounding cliffs; everywhere. The Lone Ranger turns to Tonto and says, "It looks like the end this time, Tonto...we've reached the end of the trail." Tonto replies, "What do you mean 'we', kimosabe?"

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   20:10:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Zipporah (#53)

Muslims are muslims because they chose to be.. we have no business involving ourselves in their affairs in those countries whether it be due to what our view of what their countries should be politically or religiously.. Are you in agreement with democracy building in other countries?

LOL! You are practically admitting that christians or hindus or budahist have no business living in muslim countries and should accept persecution! What? Now, i do not want to be provacative by putting silly words in your mouth by suggesting that you might approve of muslims' religious duty to treat non-muslims as second-class citizens--sort of an islamic apartheid thing because i don't believe you believe this, do you?

Of course i'm dead set against democracy building in other countries as i beleive in self-determination.

BTW, muslims are not muslims because they chose to be but because allah chooses for them and proclaims that every person is born a muslim but some are led astray by false religions. There is no freedom of choice, conscience, religion or much else in islam, FYI.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   20:10:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: robin (#55)

They're stuck on the # 144,000; a major limitation to their membership, I should think.

LOL!

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   20:12:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Zipporah (#53)

Are you in agreement with democracy building in other countries?

Not in favor of democracy building, or constitutional republic building, for that matter, anywhere else.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   20:14:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: fatidic (#60)

LOL! You are practically admitting that christians or hindus or budahist have no business living in muslim countries and should accept persecution! What? Now, i do not want to be provacative by putting silly words in your mouth by suggesting that you might approve of muslims' religious duty to treat non-muslims as second-class citizens--sort of an islamic apartheid thing because i don't believe you believe this, do you?

Of course i'm dead set against democracy building in other countries as i beleive in self-determination.

BTW, muslims are not muslims because they chose to be but because allah chooses for them and proclaims that every person is born a muslim but some are led astray by false religions. There is no freedom of choice, conscience, religion or much else in islam, FYI.

I say it's none of our business plain and simple.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   20:16:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: fatidic (#45)

Are you trying to absolve one lawbreaking group by listing the lawbreaking of other groups?

More like let he who is without sin cast the first stone. I don't have to like every single thing ever done by every Moslem ever to recognise that many Arabs and Iranians have or had been getting screwed over by the West for most of the twentieth century. Iranians don't hate us because of Mohammed or Jesus, they hate us because of the Shah. Would you be blowing up Iraqis if they invaded your town?

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-20   20:18:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: who knows what evil (#62)

Not in favor of democracy building, or constitutional republic building, for that matter, anywhere else.

Nor I .. these people do want freedom.. to quote Robert Fisk.. freedom from us...

If one reads the story of Briton's experience in Iraq in Lawrence of Arabia.. total parallel to what is happening to us in Iraq.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   20:20:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Zipporah (#56)

Possibly I'm misundestanding what your position is.. what exactly is it that you are advocating?

Now you're talking to me, zip, finally after all these exchanges.

My position is pretty much that the crumbled cookie should speak for itself, though i deplore using facts as weapons of destruction. I believe in the whole truth being sought as a foundation for our understanding and actions, tempered by the golden rule. My values are fully informed by my understanding of the God who has revealed Himself in the Bible and i am growing in my understanding and ability to apply godly truths.

I believe in and deeply love the Constitution and the God of the Bible and am zealous to defend both against all enemies--my weapons being words only. I try not to be a hypocrite and to be fair and accurate. So i can truly say, back to islam, that i can love muslims but deeply hate their religion but would defend to the death their right to self-determination, a right which they would fight to the death to deny me (it's not personal, understand) if they practiced their religion as taught by mohammed (many do you know).

P.S. hope you're not turned off of by the word "hate" as in "hate what God hates and love what God loves" you know from the Bible.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   20:27:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: christine (#57)

Sweet christine, all freedom lovers and lovers of the truth and the Constitution understand the "oppression" you mention. I never thought i'd see the day that our government...so many abuses/crimes/horrors could be used to finish this sentence.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   20:31:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: YertleTurtle (#9)

Different tribes cannot share the same land without fighting, so it's best to separate them.

So true, especially when the tribes are made up of aggressive people.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   20:39:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: who knows what evil (#51)

there aren't any examples of that happening anywhere in world history.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of examples. They're examples replete with stories of much suffering by commoners like you and me.

Feneration is slow death of community and culture.

bluegrass  posted on  2006-02-20   20:52:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: fatidic (#17)

Why weren't the Muslims the biggest threat to the world ten years ago, or 60 years ago, even 200 years ago?

Only in the past few years have we heard the Muslims are so very dangerous they might take over the US and kill us all. It's BS, and they are intentionally being stirred up in Europe. More smoke and mirrors crap.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   20:53:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: fatidic (#66)

Okay.. now that that is clear.. in regard to this thread.. what exactly are you trying to say in regard to muslims in this country.. as to how they should be dealt with?

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   20:55:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Zipporah (#71)

Okay.. now that that is clear.. in regard to this thread.. what exactly are you trying to say in regard to muslims in this country.. as to how they should be dealt with?

With our eyes wide open, armed with facts about their religion and its history we should feel free, even obligated to discuss, ridicule, question, challenge the tenets of islam. We should not hate people, nor scapegoat them, nor excuse obnoxious behavior or fear them, or coddle them, but we should as a nation repent of our invasion of iraq and express our sorrow over the torture and destruction of that country to every muslim we encounter.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   21:16:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: who knows what evil, bluegrass (#25)

I never implied that there weren't other threats that we might succumb to BEFORE Muslims became a majority...my questions had nothing to do with those possibiities...my question speculated what might happen to us under a MUSLIM majority.

It's never going to happen, in the US we need to worry more about radical Latino groups and gangs. There are a lot more of them in this country and they hate us more than the few Muslims do. Most of the Muslims came here to escape the life style in the country they came from, most are educated, at least it was like that 6 years ago. Is FOX news telling us now that Arab American Muslims are a huge threat to the US and they want to kill us all? It's interesting to me how the media can sway people's minds so easily.

If our govt were truly worried about Muslims taking over they would not be selling the operation of major US ports to UAE Arab Muslims.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   21:17:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: fatidic (#72)

With our eyes wide open, armed with facts about their religion and its history we should feel free, even obligated to discuss, ridicule, question, challenge the tenets of islam. We should not hate people, nor scapegoat them, nor excuse obnoxious behavior or fear them, or coddle them, but we should as a nation repent of our invasion of iraq and express our sorrow over the torture and destruction of that country to every muslim we encounter.

So are you saying that their religion is a danger to us here in the US?

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   21:27:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Zipporah (#28)

there was no real problem with Islam in this century other until the west meddled...

Exactly!

Once again history changes!

Those in charge of the show think we have no ability to remember anything, like trying to get us believe bin laden really is alive. I love it how on FOX they show his younger, healthy pictures when he still had color to his beard and face.

By the way, I wonder why the media has dropped Zarqawi? Did too many people catch on that he was fabricated?

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   21:46:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Zipporah (#74)

So are you saying that their religion is a danger to us here in the US?

Yes, believing lies which lead to bondage of any sort poses insidious dangers anywhere from the personal tragedies of american women marrying charming muslim men who freely use deception in the wooing (doesn't everyone?) to find that wife beating and obedience is expected, to selling the dangerous and blasphemous idea that allah and the God of the Bible are the same being. False beliefs undermine a nation, esp to the extent they are hateful.

Deception often leads to danger, esp when muslims are under koranic obligation to lie to hide the offensive aspects of islam such as the requirement to take over all the world for allah and replace every other form of government with an islamic one. We can't really expect a muslim emmigrant to make this admission, now can we? So, from the tone of your posts am i correct in supposing that you either don't take the religion as seriously as many muslims do, or do you deny these troubling aspects of islam?

Two last question before i call it quits for the evening, do you think muslims should practice pedophilla by "marrying" girls as young as six, seven and eight and having sex slaves as their esteemed prophet did or should some religious beliefs not be allowed? These are still widely practiced in islamic countries.

Also, do you know what it means to a muslim to say, "We are for peace. Islam is a religion of peace."?

good night.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-20   22:00:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: fatidic (#76)

Two last question before i call it quits for the evening, do you think muslims should practice pedophilla by "marrying" girls as young as six, seven and eight and having sex slaves as their esteemed prophet did or should some religious beliefs not be allowed? These are still widely practiced in islamic countries.

One question before I answer this.. have you read the Talmud?

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-20   22:07:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: fatidic, Bluegrass, Zipporah, Dakmar, Zoroaster, christine (#72)

With our eyes wide open, armed with facts about their religion and its history we should feel free, even obligated to discuss, ridicule, question, challenge the tenets of islam.

How about this:

With our eyes wide open, armed with facts about their religion and its history we should feel free, even obligated to discuss, ridicule, question, challenge the tenets of Judaism/Zionism.

How do you feel about that statement?

Are Zakheim, Edelstein, Perle, Wolfowitz, et. al. Islamic?

Are PNAC/AIPAC/ACLU/SPLC/ADL/NAACP/JINSA/federal media/Hollywood just top heavy and chock full of Muslims?

Who is the REAL threat to America and Americans???????

You CANNOT be serious going on about the "Islamic threat" to America and Americans as it is just a bunch of Zionist propaganda bullshit. All this Islamophobic nonsense is just a bunch of Zionist propaganda BS--plain and simple.

Islamics could NOT take over America or the world even if they wanted to. Can't happen. Ain't going to happen. That entire concept is simply laughable. They could NEVER get past the Zionists, anyway.

In 1947, the UN created a perpetual war and named it Israel.

wbales  posted on  2006-02-20   22:08:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: mehitable, Zipporah (#29)

Now reality is held hostage to ideology. We're going to destroy Western civilization if we keep up this pretense that we are all somehow the same.

I believe that is the objective, too many events point to this being the case.

We have a dead bin laden (western intel agencies) telling the world how Americans are using brutal torture in Iraq, the UAE being in control of major ports, highways in TX being sold to Spain (or so I was told), all the unwashed masses pouring over our borders unstopped, hatreds being formented between the various ethnic groups we now have in this country, jobs being outsourced to India, whole companies moving to other countries, factories closed down, and on and on..... Before we are completely dismantled we will be looted of all money and blood.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   22:09:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: bluegrass (#69)

Unfortunately, there are plenty of examples. They're examples replete with stories of much suffering by commoners like you and me.

Sorry...thought my sarcasm was evident.

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   22:13:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Diana (#73)

If our govt were truly worried about Muslims taking over they would not be selling the operation of major US ports to UAE Arab Muslims.

The 'government' isn't worried about anyone...they'll take care of themselves when TSHTF. It will be the rest of us that get screwed...

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   22:15:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: fatidic, Zipporah (#76)

Deception often leads to danger, esp when muslims are under koranic obligation to lie to hide the offensive aspects of islam such as the requirement to take over all the world for allah and replace every other form of government with an islamic one. We can't really expect a muslim emmigrant to make this admission, now can we? So, from the tone of your posts am i correct in supposing that you either don't take the religion as seriously as many muslims do, or do you deny these troubling aspects of islam?

What you are describing are the more radical parts of the Jewish Talmud exactly.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   22:15:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: who knows what evil, faditic, mehitable (#36)

To: mehitable

My advice to people at this point is prepare yourself and your loved ones to be the remnant that survives.

We share the same perspective. Good luck.

I agree!

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   22:33:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Diana (#82)

What you are describing are the more radical parts of the Jewish Talmud exactly.

Those don't count.

In 1947, the UN created a perpetual war and named it Israel.

wbales  posted on  2006-02-20   22:39:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Dakmar (#42)

The perptrator of the worst genocide ever is the United States.

Sometimes I wonder if this country is doomed because it was taken from peoples who lived on this continent for thousands of years. Though I suppose this sort of thing has happened before in history, but maybe we were suppose to know better than taking over an entire continent that belonged to other peoples.

The US didn't last very long, only a little over 200 years.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   22:39:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: fatidic (#43)

If only everyone would stay in their own backyards and not meddle with other nations we would not be having all these problems.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   22:41:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: who knows what evil, bluegrass (#51)

To: bluegrass

The current dominant minority will never allow any majority to take power.

You're right...there aren't any examples of that happening anywhere in world history.

What about Iceland and the Scandinavian countries? Who are their ruling minorities?

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   22:47:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Diana (#86)

If only everyone would stay in their own backyards and not meddle with other nations we would not be having all these problems.

Buchanan was right. :-)

who knows what evil  posted on  2006-02-20   22:53:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: fatidic (#66)

Please look at it this way, the US egged on by Israel and greedy oil barons invaded a couple of Muslim countries who may have had strange ways, but they did not invade us. And remember our government told us the 19 hijackers were Saudis, though oddly 7 of them are still alive and not happy with the American government for stealing their identities to be used in a false flag operation.

These problems with Muslims all stem from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict IMO. And lots of people from all sides are being riled up on purpose. But please look at the actions of the Muslim countries, not their words but their actions. Then look at the actions of US/Israel.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   22:54:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: fatidic (#67)

Do you remember the Muslims being such a huge threat back in 1992 or so? No, because the media was not telling that to us back then, only Saddam, who ruled over a secular Iraq, and the Serbs were the bad guys. Back then we were to feel sorry for the Muslim Albanians, they were the good guys. And if you go back a decade, the US was giving money and weapons to Saddam!

These people in charge of us all are masters of deception, though they are not quite as clever as they think. And as GWB would say, they highly misunderestimate us all.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-20   23:01:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Zipporah, fatdic (#77)

One question before I answer this.. have you read the Talmud?

I haven't, it's 2500 pages or so. But I have read SOME of it. Orthodox jews, I believe, take it as the basis of their faith.

From what I understand, many or most of the book burnings from the middle ages were a result of Martin Luther, either learning Hebrew or employing a translator to translate the Talmud in to his tounge.

He was appalled and angered by what he read, as were the rest of the host countrymen, when they saw what was written.

This led to many of the "Book Burnings" that we were taught as young 'uns to be the work of peoples who hated learning, for some, always, unexplained, reason.

The Talmud is very difficult to find in English, and one of the restrictions contained in it is not to reveal to the goy it's contents.

Sounds like a secret society, by the loosest of definations.

tom007  posted on  2006-02-20   23:11:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: who knows what evil (#81)

The 'government' isn't worried about anyone...they'll take care of themselves when TSHTF. It will be the rest of us that get screwed...

who knows what evil posted on 2006-02-20 22:15:44 ET Reply Trace Private Reply

Reality POST OF THE DAY.

tom007  posted on  2006-02-20   23:12:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Diana (#68)

Different tribes cannot share the same land without fighting, so it's best to separate them.

So true, especially when the tribes are made up of aggressive people.

When you look at the history of the world, the most aggressive tribe of all has been the white tribe. That's why I think these problems we have are temporary. There will come a tipping point -- and it's starting already -- and then the problems of illegal immmigrants, etc., will be fixed.

"I aim to misbehave" -- Mal Reynolds, Firefly

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-02-21   5:50:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: wbales (#78)

slamics could NOT take over America or the world even if they wanted to. Can't happen. Ain't going to happen. That entire concept is simply laughable. They could NEVER get past the Zionists, anyway.

You're missing the point which is not whether it's feasible for muslims to take over the world, but what is their aim? If it is to take over the world's governments and they do comprise a huge percentage and growing of the world's population, it is silly not to take their aims/religion/mindset/actions seriously. You evidently prefer to ignore what doesn't suit you so you can blame jews for all the world's woes. Talk about an axe to grind and extreme prejudice. Why should i bother to take your questions seriously?

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-21   11:13:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Zipporah (#77)

One question before I answer this.. have you read the Talmud?

You're deflecting, a time-worn fallacy in logic, or should i say avoidance progaganda. If the Talmud advocates practices which are illegal they should not be allowed under the laws of the land, no exceptions, IMO. So what really is your point? You seem full of venon toward jews but unwilling to apply the same judgments to muslims and the koran. Why not be fair-minded, which you have not come accross as to me in these posts?

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-21   11:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Diana (#82)

What you are describing are the more radical parts of the Jewish Talmud exactly.

If that is so, then it is so, but is your point that my statement does not apply to islam? It seems a few on this thread are in serious denial about the facts of islam and attempt to shift all assignment of guilt/wrong doing onto jews. Well, if i joined a thread about the ills of the Talmud and then attempted to divert it to the evils of islam you'd probably think i have a big axe to grind, which is what i think is going on here.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-21   11:23:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: fatidic (#95)

One question before I answer this.. have you read the Talmud?

You're deflecting, a time-worn fallacy in logic, or should i say avoidance progaganda. If the Talmud advocates practices which are illegal they should not be allowed under the laws of the land, no exceptions, IMO. So what really is your point? You seem full of venon toward jews but unwilling to apply the same judgments to muslims and the koran. Why not be fair-minded, which you have not come accross as to me in these posts?

No I'm not deflecting or avoiding anything.. I dont have venom towards anyone.. it was an honest question.. plain and simple.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-21   11:24:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Diana (#90)

I think i understand your confusion if you are coming to an awakening of the islamic threat as depicted by the media. I was long aware (with many others) of the nature of islam and some knowledge of world history long ago, so my views are not formed by the media or bush&co's progaganda machine.

It seems to me you are making a mistake in reasoning that since one group, which you obviously dislike, is so bad that the ones they are picking on must automatically be victims. But that is not necessarily so, and in the case of the muslim/jewish confict, the muslim/crusader conflict, and many more national and relgious conflicts involving muslims over the centuries there is a lot of blame/guilt to go around and there does not have to be a good side/bad side in dichotomy in every conflict.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-21   11:38:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Zipporah, Diana (#97)

To answer your question, no i have not read all of the Talmud, just a few snippets and boy was it scary. No one but muslims believe the koran was orignial and from the few snippets of the talmud i read i can see that mohammed heavily borrowed from some of the worst parts.

So much to be appalled at, so little time.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-21   12:44:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: fatidic (#99)

To answer your question, no i have not read all of the Talmud, just a few snippets and boy was it scary. No one but muslims believe the koran was orignial and from the few snippets of the talmud i read i can see that mohammed heavily borrowed from some of the worst parts.

So much to be appalled at, so little time.

Well it is many volumes so it would be a tad difficult to read all of it..

It's possibly but I dont know about the connection between the two?

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-21   12:48:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Zipporah (#100)

It's possibly but I dont know about the connection between the two?

Just start reading an english translation of the koran and your eyes will pop.

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-21   13:13:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: fatidic (#101)

There is insane violence in the Old Testament too. Remember the Canaanites? They were genocided. Does that mean modern Jews and Christians approve of genocide?

I'll concede that there are few nutcase Moslems who are a threat, but there are people like that that in all religions.

I basically see most of the problems in the Islamic countries as being blowback for 100 years of western imperialism and intervention.

Are you familiar with the atrocities committed by Japan during WWII? If so, do you think Shinto should be outlawed?

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-21   13:51:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Dakmar (#102)

You're making no distinctions whatsoever between fringe lunatics who do very bad things in the name of their religion but in contridiction to its teachings and those who do very bad things in compliance with the teachings of their religion. Why don't you get a clue?

fatidic  posted on  2006-02-21   14:37:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: fatidic (#103)

How so, with the Japan reference? I see Emperor worhip a very much a part of the Japanese religious belief system at the time.

After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-02-21   14:41:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: fatidic (#96)

If that is so, then it is so, but is your point that my statement does not apply to islam? It seems a few on this thread are in serious denial about the facts of islam and attempt to shift all assignment of guilt/wrong doing onto jews. Well, if i joined a thread about the ills of the Talmud and then attempted to divert it to the evils of islam you'd probably think i have a big axe to grind, which is what i think is going on here.

It would probably be a good idea for everyone to find some books on Islam published before 2000 or so. It has been distorted by the media and those in charge of us who use propaganda as it would not be condusive to war if we did not hate our enemy.

I have an uncle who has been reading books on Islam, objective books published ten years ago or earlier. One of the main law is to give to the poor, they are obliged to give to the poor, but we no longer hear about that.

When I lived in TX I knew some Muslims through work, these guys were educated though and weren't particularly religious, but like Christians they would like to see the world converted, but not by the sword, they are smart enough to realize that method does not work. That's not to say there are not radicals as there are radicals in all religions who would like to kill anyone not like them.

These are the truly dangerous people whatever their religion.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-21   18:29:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: fatidic (#98)

It seems to me you are making a mistake in reasoning that since one group, which you obviously dislike, is so bad that the ones they are picking on must automatically be victims. But that is not necessarily so, and in the case of the muslim/jewish confict, the muslim/crusader conflict, and many more national and relgious conflicts involving muslims over the centuries there is a lot of blame/guilt to go around and there does not have to be a good side/bad side in dichotomy in every conflict.

Right, all religions at one time or another have been guilty of mass atrocities such as the Inquistion by the Christians, the Muslims who conquered and killed others, and Jews who formented revolutions which resulted in the deaths of millions. All have been guilty at one time or another.

I don't hate Jews, I become very annoyed with the radical Jews who can be very rude and downright murderous. Because I worry about those guys, (and I don't hate even them, I just don't like what they do because they are destructive to non-Jews) does not mean I hate Jews. Just because I know there are radical parts in the Talmud, does not mean I hate Jews. You can find brutality and hate in the Bible too, and in the Koran as well.

We happen to be living in a time period where Jews are heading up things, this can't be denyed, and many of them are radicals who do not like gentiles. That is not a good thing.

I just want everyone to mind their business and stay in their own backyards, and treat all living things with respect and care.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-21   18:41:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: fatidic (#98)

It seems to me you are making a mistake in reasoning that since one group, which you obviously dislike, is so bad that the ones they are picking on must automatically be victims. But that is not necessarily so,

I don't think that. I know all groups are capable of engaging in bad acts.

I've been aware that there have been Palestinians blowing up Israelis for decades now. Anyone who targets innocent Israeli people on buses or in restaurants or in shopping centers is a monster. Yet again there are kind and good-hearted Palestinians who don't like what their people are doing.

I didn't know much about Islam until the early 90s when I worked with a couple of Iranian people. They spent their childhoods in Iran and were brought up Muslim. They were very nice and great to work with.

When I started at that job and encountered those guys, I wanted to know more about the Islamic religion. So I bought a book called "Understand Islam" which explained a lot about their religion and cultures. The author was a Jewish guy, he was much more of a scholar than a propaganda writer, the book was objective and informative. No politics were mentioned. There were indeed some harsh things in the Koran, but part of their laws are to help the poor, and be humane to animals (though I don't know how well many Arabs practice this one). In the end it's really another book of laws for people to live by. And the people who practice Islam have their own versions of it as it's practiced in various areas around the world, and they tend to incorporate their culture into it.

My aunt and uncle came to visit me this past summer, and he brought some books with him, two of them about the Muslim religion. His books also just told the facts with no subtle or not so subtle insinuations. They have their good and bad like anyone else. But they are urged to be good people and to treat others fairly.

And again, these problems with radical muslims have been drilled into our conscience for the past 5 years or so until we think of them all as horrible monsters. as they've been trying to make us think that they've been a terrible danger to the US for a long time.

Diana  posted on  2006-02-22   1:39:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: Dakmar (#102)

There is insane violence in the Old Testament too. Remember the Canaanites? They were genocided. Does that mean modern Jews and Christians approve of genocide?

I'll concede that there are few nutcase Moslems who are a threat, but there are people like that that in all religions.

I basically see most of the problems in the Islamic countries as being blowback for 100 years of western imperialism and intervention.

I agree with you completely! Well said!

Diana  posted on  2006-02-22   1:50:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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