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Title: Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?
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URL Source: http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/09 ... -please-get-rid-of-the-pledge/
Published: Sep 4, 2016
Author: Mike Whitney
Post Date: 2016-09-04 12:22:08 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 2045
Comments: 85
The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is. Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head. Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.” That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner. The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard? I can’t answer that, but when I see the state deliberately eviscerating habeas corpus and locking away terror suspects for life with no evidence, no witnesses, no due process, no presumption of innocence, no way to defend themselves or claim their innocence in a court of law or before a jury of their peers–when I see the US state assuming the same unchecked, tyrannical powers as all of the dictatorships that went before them– I grow increasingly concerned that this lack of critical thinking is costing the country quite dearly. We are on the verge of losing what-little democracy we have left because people are incapable of looking around and asking ‘what the hell is going on?’ Pulling your head out of the sand and asking questions is not a sign of disloyalty. It’s a sign of intelligence, the kind of intelligence this country needs to stop the bloody wars and get back on track. So next time you’re in a situation where you’re asked to stand up and recite the pledge, just pause for a minute and ask yourself what it really means. Is it really an expression of “love of country” or a is it a vacuous and demeaning exercise in nationalism that should be done away with ASAP? I’d say, it’s the latter.
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#23. To: Cynicom (#12)
Uh, yes. . .The right of the states to withdraw was assumed. From 1800 to 1815, there were three serious attempts at secession orchestrated by New England Federalists. This "one nation, indivisible" pledge was indoctrination aimed at US schoolchildren.
The Strange History of the pledge - talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/strange-history-pledge-of-allegiance “The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Take a read of Confederate Constitution, they were smarter than us.
The Columbus part I did not know. """The original version of the Pledge of Allegiance did not include the words “under God.” The patriotic oath – attributed to a Baptist minister named Francis Bellamy and published in a children’s magazine in September 1892 to commemorate the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus’ voyage to America – read: “I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.”"" It was NEVER anything forced on the people by the government. Hang the government, yes, however do not buy everything anti-American that is brought out by the media.
When the pledge was required in government schoolrooms and there was a penalty for refusal (even if it were just a trip to the principal's office), that's force.
What would have happened if you had refused the oath?
I recall having my hair pulled, ears tweaked, knuckles rapped, with fear being instilled everyday. THE GOVERNMENT DID IT. The pledge was stolen by government, nothing of their origination. Like minded people have gotten all forms of physical punishment outlawed, now acknowledging a GOD is illegal, allegiance to ones country is illegal, society has filled its jails and cannot understand why people break the law?????
No one said I do. Totally meaningless oath just as the pledge. Worrying about the pledge is infantile at the least. One day when they come for Ada, tell them you dont want to go.Wont happen???? Dont bet on it. In 1952 the FBI and police came for me. Where were all the government haters, ready to defend me from an evil government????? Real world out there ADA.
And you know what's outrageous about that pledge, Ada? When the government took prayer out of the public schools including bible teachings, they begin forcing students to stand up and face the flag and recite the pledge with the notion of one nation under god. What god were these students pledging to? I remember having to stand and face the flag and recite the pledge. It wasn't until years later that I realized that I had also been duped into this lie.
Loyalty oaths are for suckers. Just ask Bill and Hillary Clinton.
That's a very sobering thought and many of us here today won't be here after the next administration delivers its treason. Where are you or we going to be -- dead? In the gulag? _____________________________________________________________ USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um
This was my baptism to "allegiance" oath or whatever. There were 714 of us, 700 army, 14 Air force. Most of the grunts were recalls from WWII. Rest of us were virgins. Pimply faced little second john down front at railroad station, reading the oath as he did not know it. There were many men crying, many calling the pimply face horrible names. I just stood there, thinking this is not real. So much for an oath, pledge or whatever. I was astonished at grown men, much older, crying openly. The bad language, I joined in. What on earth does all that mean, Cyni? _____________________________________________________________ USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um
Splain this too, please. _____________________________________________________________ USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um
WhT you guys dont like the pledge, germany had a pledge once back in the 30s and see how well that worked out for them as a socialist republic?
______________________________________ Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.
Many are concerned about pledge of allegiance recited in schools. I was trying to show how really meaningless is any pledge, oath or whatever, forced upon any person, by whatever power. For the "pledge" I was somewhere in junior high, before taking note or interest in what I was reciting. The daily act was meaningless, something the teacher wanted done, so lets get it over with. Being sworn into the military by the act of an "oath", again is totally meaningless. Formality, so lets get it over with. As an adult, if one receives any good from either, so be it, seeing either as some monstrous government plot is ludicrous. The pledge was perhaps one of mans best efforts for the good of all mankind, a recall of 400th anniversary of Columbus and the new world. No government had anything to do with it, at any time. Do I feel harmed in any way by reciting the pledge and an oath? Not really. We need to keep things in perspective.
Its child indoctrination, brainwashing to hard wire folks in to state loving automatons. It's immoral and should be done away with.
______________________________________ Suspect all media / resist bad propaganda/Learn NLP everyday everyway ;) If you don't control your mind someone else will.
In 1952, when Korean war was going badly, the FBI and local police showed up at my home, demanding my person be handed over forthwith, by free will, or force if necessary, being that I was a draft dodger. My Father dryly told them I was in or around Korea but would surely like to come home to face such charges, if they would arrange it. They were, disappointed in that there would be no "body" to throw in prison that day. So much for my "pledges and oaths" etc. Side note, they being FBI were "draft exempt"...
I do not check under my bed or look in the closet every night.
Don't worry about the bed or the closet; they're already in your phone, your TV, your smart meter, and your computer.
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Just damn. Lod, for fun exercise, under FOIA, request a copy of your file from FBI. If it comes back many pages, heavily redacted, your days are numbered.
If these oaths are meaningless, they should be abolished.
Ever marry, appear in court???
If there are no consequences for violating these oaths, then yes. Perjury still carries a penalty and breaking the marriage vows might (but not always).
My days were numbered from the day that I was born; I just don't know how many they are...
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Ah, I think I know what you are getting at. Oaths should not be necessary for either. Perjury should come with a penalty with or without an oath. And marriage is governed by contract law.
So they mistook you for a "draft dodger" when you were already in the Korean conflict. Any idea what misled them -- pure bureaucratic screwup?
_____________________________________________________________ USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um
What's with all that? _____________________________________________________________ USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um
They were like bounty hunters in those days.
Majority of the 700 had served in WWII and had been recalled for active duty.. They knew what was coming for them. New uniform and in thirty days they would be in Korea. Meat for the grinder.
I did some of that with a bondsman out here in Missouri. One day we took a ride to Springfield to look for a guy. He pulled up on the street corner and pointed at the third house. He said, "The guy we want is in that house. I'll give you two minutes to get into position." I walked into the back yard. There was a bush at the bottom of the stairs and I hunkered down behind it. As soon as he beat on the front door, the back door opened with a crash. Some guy came running down the steps. I jumped up from behind the bush and clothes lined him. I bundled him up and hustled him up front. The bondsman said, "What took so long." I said, "What d'ya mean what took so long." I made $100 on that one. ROTFLMAO! Another time we took a ride to Kansas City. We knew this guy was up there on the sixth floor. We were talking with the doorman. He must have called up there and told him, "Those bounty hunters are down here looking for you," because he beat us back to where he was supposed to be and turned himself in. :-/ "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
Why were they calling the pimply faced guy names, where was their patriotism. It's like this moment in time. Where are all the yellow ribbons and other tawdry signs of jingoism anymore? People supported our troops in the first 5 years of war but don't now -- is that it? The sheeple at large are among the many strata and contingents of the populace for whom war is a subject out of sight and out of mind. There's no peace movement or culture, no protests, barely any mention anywhere. _____________________________________________________________ USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um
It is not my intention to criticize you for your unflagging loyalty to this nation. I would respectfully suggest that we don't attack those who recognize the dangers of blind loyalty to the state, lest we toss the baby out with the bath water. "My country right or wrong" is the fertile loam in which tyrannies sprout. It's the blanket used to hide the napalming of women and kids, and the abandonment of our sons left in hostile combatants' hands.
They were men that had done their turn, had managed to survive one awful war and now were going to do it again. One has to remember, it was then and now, a case of those of us in the lowest rung of society that went, bled and died. People here decry and demean the current "volunteer" military. One has to ask, if there were no volunteers, just might there be a draft? If a draft, who would go???? The same ones that volunteered. From defense Watch... """n the 42 years since we abolished the draft in 1973, we have created an all-volunteer force of middle and lower class people who are bearing the burden for the whole country. The military has become something like a famous painting in a museum; to be admired but never touched. American society is happy to “support the troops”, as long as their complete involvement in the military only includes standing at attention with a tub of Buffalo Wings while the National Anthem plays at an NFL game. Under the guise of “supporting the troops”, which has become a cliché, the American people are just fine with less than ONE percent of the nation serving in the military and fighting its wars."""
How about the nut that called me up and told me, "You were in the National Guard." I said, "Nope." He said, "Then you worked for the National Guard." I said, "Not at all. Where are you getting your information?" When they get your name, they think they know everything about you. :-/ "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
As one born into the lowest class of American society, during the Great Depression, I have never held any illusions about the upper classes.
Correct. A voluntary oath such as the Boy Scout Pledge or Ethical Hunter Oath is a code of ethics which one adopts freely. A mandatory (or ostensibly obligatory through social pressure-classroom conformity) pledge is in fact compelled obedience, and "any act committed by me against my will is not my act". Any who voluntarily seek work in defense plants should have no quarrel with such oaths and secrecy agreements to protect technology, enforced with criminal statutes. But, a school kid pledging allegiance to the flag is the same method that teaches kids that their parents' GOD is the true living god, and "them other heathens that use real wine in their communion are going straight to Hayull." We may raise our kids to worship BAAL if we choose, but, should the state have a prior claim on our children's loyalties? In a nation where the wealth is siphoned ever upward and the standard of living is continuously falling (despite tech advances which should lift all boats) what possible obligation could poor, working class stiffs have to bend our knees for the govt that bows before its money masters?
My father was grateful for the CCC and the work it provided, and the money sent home to his family. The trouble is, if the FED hadn't seized control of the US banking system and turned into a private for profit enterprise, the Crash of '29 (where the week before deposits actually exceeded withdrawals) would not have happened. Only private bankers had the incentive to collapse the economy and buy up wealth for pennies on the dollar. And, once world war was arranged, (with the very exciting stimulus of killing Germans) there was plenty of money to build the banker profit machine and get the govt contract geese to mass produce golden eggs.
In a just society, I would be allowed to beat the hell out of protesters that spit on me. Often times honor loses out to expediency, at least in public. Loyalty oaths date back many years, I'm sure, but I'm recalling something about the Progressive era... Not that NRA, but it made me chuckle. " As a citizen, I would hesitate to see any political party outlawed on the basis of its political ideology. However, if it is proven that an organization is an agent of foreign power, or in any way not a legitimate political party -- and I think the government is capable of proving that -- then that is another matter." - Ronald Reagan to House Un-American Activities Committee, October 23, 1947
The original posting was concerning Pledge of Allegiance... It was written by one man, to honor the 400th year of Columbus discovering America. The government was in no way involved. The author intended it to be used by children of any country in the world. Any government, state or federal that misused it in any way was duly elected by the citizens. Side note...At that time in history, state governments were trying to get Federals to ban child labor. The Federals refused to act due to pressure of huge corporations. There was no mass indignation by the upper and middle class. Society was perfectly content that children of the poor were required to work. Now people go into hysteria over a pledge. Government and running dog media are TV educating Americans and it shows.
The mayor no doubt swelled up with pride and power, even though the NRA contained no provision to nationalize the banks and corporations that grew fat on hard luck divestments by otherwise solid industries who could no longer borrow to cost. When banks simply choked off the supply of credit it destroyed good people who mistakenly believed that their govt was protecting them from predatory swindlers. Imagine a compulsory "OATH TO MY RAPIST", where one pledges to let the rapist enjoy a recovery nap and then awaken to a nice snack and a beer.
Side note...At that time in history, state governments were trying to get Federals to ban child labor. The Federals refused to act due to pressure of huge corporations. There was no mass indignation by the upper and middle class. Society was perfectly content that children of the poor were required to work. Now people go into hysteria over a pledge. Government and running dog media are TV educating Americans and it shows. In the absence of a fully informed citizenry it's not too difficult to get people to weave their own nooses. And govts "duly elected by the citizens" does not transfer moral responsibility for govt misdeeds, as you implied. Are you responsible for the murders of JFK, MLK, RFK and John John? Are we responsible for WACO, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, GITMO and Abu Ghraib?
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestAssuming you meant ...secession..
#24. To: Ada (#23)
This "one nation, indivisible" pledge was indoctrination aimed at US schoolchildren.
#25. To: Ada (#23)
This "one nation, indivisible" pledge was indoctrination aimed at US schoolchildren.
#26. To: Ada, Lod, BTP Holdings, noone222, all (#23)
#27. To: Cynicom (#26)
It was NEVER anything forced on the people by the government.
#28. To: Cynicom (#15)
#29. To: Ada (#27)
#30. To: Ada (#28)
What would have happened if you had refused the oath?
#31. To: Ada (#23)
#32. To: Dakmar (#19)
(Edited)
#33. To: noone222 (#21)
Fall or destroyed, I wont be here.
#34. To: Cynicom (#15)
Recall "swearing in" on entry to the military???
#35. To: Cynicom (#30)
In 1952 the FBI and police came for me.
#36. To: Ada (#0)
#37. To: NeoconsNailed (#34)
What on earth does all that mean, Cyni?
#38. To: Cynicom (#37)
#39. To: NeoconsNailed (#35)
(Edited)
Splain this too, please.
#40. To: titorite (#38)
Its child indoctrination, brainwashing to hard wire folks in to state loving automatons. It's immoral and should be done away with.
#41. To: Cynicom (#40)
#42. To: Lod (#41)
Don't worry about the bed or the closet; they're already in your phone, your TV, your smart meter, and your computer.
#43. To: Cynicom (#30)
Totally meaningless oath just as the pledge.
#44. To: Ada (#43)
If these oaths are meaningless, they should be abolished.
#45. To: Cynicom (#44)
Ever marry, appear in court???
#46. To: Cynicom (#42)
#47. To: Cynicom (#44)
#48. To: Cynicom (#39)
#49. To: Cynicom (#37)
Pimply faced little second john down front at railroad station, reading the oath as he did not know it. There were many men crying, many calling the pimply face horrible names.
#50. To: NeoconsNailed (#48)
So they mistook you for a "draft dodger"
#51. To: NeoconsNailed (#49)
What's with all that?
#52. To: Cynicom (#50)
bounty hunters
#53. To: Cynicom (#51)
#54. To: Cynicom, noone222, Lod (#10)
Americans are far too eager to jump aboard any and all derogatory epistles written about this country. Buying into every negative regurgitation spewing from any pen, without knowledge and consideration of intent is not good.
#55. To: NeoconsNailed (#53)
Why were they calling the pimply faced guy names, where was their patriotism.
#56. To: Cynicom (#55)
(Edited)
#57. To: HOUNDDAWG (#54)
#58. To: Ada, Cynicom (#27)
When the pledge was required in government schoolrooms and there was a penalty for refusal (even if it were just a trip to the principal's office), that's force.
#59. To: Cynicom (#57)
As one born into the lowest class of American society, during the Great Depression, I have never held any illusions about the upper classes.
#60. To: HOUNDDAWG (#58)
"Loyalty oaths were common during World War II. In support of Roosevelt's National Recovery Administration, 100,000 school children marched to Boston Common and swore a loyalty oath administered by the mayor, "I promise as a good American citizen to do my part for the NRA.
#61. To: HOUNDDAWG (#58)
#62. To: Dakmar (#60)
"Loyalty oaths were common during World War II. In support of Roosevelt's National Recovery Administration, 100,000 school children marched to Boston Common and swore a loyalty oath administered by the mayor, "I promise as a good American citizen to do my part for the NRA.
#63. To: Cynicom (#61)
Any government, state or federal that misused it in any way was duly elected by the citizens.
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