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Title: Can We Please Get Rid of the Pledge?
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URL Source: http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/09 ... -please-get-rid-of-the-pledge/
Published: Sep 4, 2016
Author: Mike Whitney
Post Date: 2016-09-04 12:22:08 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 1742
Comments: 85
The Pledge of Allegiance is not an expression of patriotism. It is a loyalty oath that one normally associates with totalitarian regimes. People who love freedom, should be appalled by the idea our children are being coerced to stand and declare their support for the state. This is the worst form of indoctrination and it is completely anathema to the principals articulated in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I cannot imagine outspoken libertarians like Thomas Jefferson or Tom Paine ever proclaiming their loyalty to the state when they correctly saw the state as the greatest threat to individual freedom. Which it is. Now I know that many people think the Pledge is simply an affirmation of their respect for the flag, their love for the country, and their gratitude to the men and women who fought in America’s wars. But that’s not what it is. The Pledge is an attempt to impose conformity on the masses and compel them to click their heels and proclaim their devotion to the Fatherland. That’s not how it’s supposed to work in a democracy. In a democracy, the representatives of the state are supposed to pledge their loyalty to the people and to the laws that protect them. That’s the correct relationship between the state and the people. The Pledge turns that whole concept on its head. Now I’d have no problem if our schoolchildren recited the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence before class every day: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.” That’s great stuff, unfortunately, the people who run this country would never allow it. They’d never allow our kids to recite an incendiary, revolutionary document like that every day for fear it would incite violence against the state. What they want is “good Germans”, not revolutionaries, not freedom-loving populists, and not well-informed, critical thinking individuals who can see through the sham of their jingoistic propaganda. They want people who are going to follow the rules, do what they’re told, fight the wars, and perform their worktime drudgery for 30 or 40 years until they’re carted off to the glue factory. That’s what they want. Reciting the Pledge fits perfectly with this dumbed-down version of permanent indentured servitude. It provides the ideological foundation for bovine acquiescence to the demands of the state and the crooks who run it behind the tri-color banner. The fact that institutions like the Pledge are never challenged in a public format, points to deeper problems with the media and the way our kids are being educated. And while I don’t have time to talk about that now, it makes me wonder where are the people to question these silly recitations that undermine democracy and personal liberty? Why are their voices never heard? I can’t answer that, but when I see the state deliberately eviscerating habeas corpus and locking away terror suspects for life with no evidence, no witnesses, no due process, no presumption of innocence, no way to defend themselves or claim their innocence in a court of law or before a jury of their peers–when I see the US state assuming the same unchecked, tyrannical powers as all of the dictatorships that went before them– I grow increasingly concerned that this lack of critical thinking is costing the country quite dearly. We are on the verge of losing what-little democracy we have left because people are incapable of looking around and asking ‘what the hell is going on?’ Pulling your head out of the sand and asking questions is not a sign of disloyalty. It’s a sign of intelligence, the kind of intelligence this country needs to stop the bloody wars and get back on track. So next time you’re in a situation where you’re asked to stand up and recite the pledge, just pause for a minute and ask yourself what it really means. Is it really an expression of “love of country” or a is it a vacuous and demeaning exercise in nationalism that should be done away with ASAP? I’d say, it’s the latter.
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#46. To: Cynicom (#42)
My days were numbered from the day that I was born; I just don't know how many they are...
“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken
Ah, I think I know what you are getting at. Oaths should not be necessary for either. Perjury should come with a penalty with or without an oath. And marriage is governed by contract law.
So they mistook you for a "draft dodger" when you were already in the Korean conflict. Any idea what misled them -- pure bureaucratic screwup?
_____________________________________________________________ USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um
What's with all that? _____________________________________________________________ USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um
They were like bounty hunters in those days.
Majority of the 700 had served in WWII and had been recalled for active duty.. They knew what was coming for them. New uniform and in thirty days they would be in Korea. Meat for the grinder.
I did some of that with a bondsman out here in Missouri. One day we took a ride to Springfield to look for a guy. He pulled up on the street corner and pointed at the third house. He said, "The guy we want is in that house. I'll give you two minutes to get into position." I walked into the back yard. There was a bush at the bottom of the stairs and I hunkered down behind it. As soon as he beat on the front door, the back door opened with a crash. Some guy came running down the steps. I jumped up from behind the bush and clothes lined him. I bundled him up and hustled him up front. The bondsman said, "What took so long." I said, "What d'ya mean what took so long." I made $100 on that one. ROTFLMAO! Another time we took a ride to Kansas City. We knew this guy was up there on the sixth floor. We were talking with the doorman. He must have called up there and told him, "Those bounty hunters are down here looking for you," because he beat us back to where he was supposed to be and turned himself in. :-/ "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
Why were they calling the pimply faced guy names, where was their patriotism. It's like this moment in time. Where are all the yellow ribbons and other tawdry signs of jingoism anymore? People supported our troops in the first 5 years of war but don't now -- is that it? The sheeple at large are among the many strata and contingents of the populace for whom war is a subject out of sight and out of mind. There's no peace movement or culture, no protests, barely any mention anywhere. _____________________________________________________________ USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um
It is not my intention to criticize you for your unflagging loyalty to this nation. I would respectfully suggest that we don't attack those who recognize the dangers of blind loyalty to the state, lest we toss the baby out with the bath water. "My country right or wrong" is the fertile loam in which tyrannies sprout. It's the blanket used to hide the napalming of women and kids, and the abandonment of our sons left in hostile combatants' hands.
They were men that had done their turn, had managed to survive one awful war and now were going to do it again. One has to remember, it was then and now, a case of those of us in the lowest rung of society that went, bled and died. People here decry and demean the current "volunteer" military. One has to ask, if there were no volunteers, just might there be a draft? If a draft, who would go???? The same ones that volunteered. From defense Watch... """n the 42 years since we abolished the draft in 1973, we have created an all-volunteer force of middle and lower class people who are bearing the burden for the whole country. The military has become something like a famous painting in a museum; to be admired but never touched. American society is happy to “support the troops”, as long as their complete involvement in the military only includes standing at attention with a tub of Buffalo Wings while the National Anthem plays at an NFL game. Under the guise of “supporting the troops”, which has become a cliché, the American people are just fine with less than ONE percent of the nation serving in the military and fighting its wars."""
How about the nut that called me up and told me, "You were in the National Guard." I said, "Nope." He said, "Then you worked for the National Guard." I said, "Not at all. Where are you getting your information?" When they get your name, they think they know everything about you. :-/ "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke
As one born into the lowest class of American society, during the Great Depression, I have never held any illusions about the upper classes.
Correct. A voluntary oath such as the Boy Scout Pledge or Ethical Hunter Oath is a code of ethics which one adopts freely. A mandatory (or ostensibly obligatory through social pressure-classroom conformity) pledge is in fact compelled obedience, and "any act committed by me against my will is not my act". Any who voluntarily seek work in defense plants should have no quarrel with such oaths and secrecy agreements to protect technology, enforced with criminal statutes. But, a school kid pledging allegiance to the flag is the same method that teaches kids that their parents' GOD is the true living god, and "them other heathens that use real wine in their communion are going straight to Hayull." We may raise our kids to worship BAAL if we choose, but, should the state have a prior claim on our children's loyalties? In a nation where the wealth is siphoned ever upward and the standard of living is continuously falling (despite tech advances which should lift all boats) what possible obligation could poor, working class stiffs have to bend our knees for the govt that bows before its money masters?
My father was grateful for the CCC and the work it provided, and the money sent home to his family. The trouble is, if the FED hadn't seized control of the US banking system and turned into a private for profit enterprise, the Crash of '29 (where the week before deposits actually exceeded withdrawals) would not have happened. Only private bankers had the incentive to collapse the economy and buy up wealth for pennies on the dollar. And, once world war was arranged, (with the very exciting stimulus of killing Germans) there was plenty of money to build the banker profit machine and get the govt contract geese to mass produce golden eggs.
In a just society, I would be allowed to beat the hell out of protesters that spit on me. Often times honor loses out to expediency, at least in public. Loyalty oaths date back many years, I'm sure, but I'm recalling something about the Progressive era... Not that NRA, but it made me chuckle. " As a citizen, I would hesitate to see any political party outlawed on the basis of its political ideology. However, if it is proven that an organization is an agent of foreign power, or in any way not a legitimate political party -- and I think the government is capable of proving that -- then that is another matter." - Ronald Reagan to House Un-American Activities Committee, October 23, 1947
The original posting was concerning Pledge of Allegiance... It was written by one man, to honor the 400th year of Columbus discovering America. The government was in no way involved. The author intended it to be used by children of any country in the world. Any government, state or federal that misused it in any way was duly elected by the citizens. Side note...At that time in history, state governments were trying to get Federals to ban child labor. The Federals refused to act due to pressure of huge corporations. There was no mass indignation by the upper and middle class. Society was perfectly content that children of the poor were required to work. Now people go into hysteria over a pledge. Government and running dog media are TV educating Americans and it shows.
The mayor no doubt swelled up with pride and power, even though the NRA contained no provision to nationalize the banks and corporations that grew fat on hard luck divestments by otherwise solid industries who could no longer borrow to cost. When banks simply choked off the supply of credit it destroyed good people who mistakenly believed that their govt was protecting them from predatory swindlers. Imagine a compulsory "OATH TO MY RAPIST", where one pledges to let the rapist enjoy a recovery nap and then awaken to a nice snack and a beer.
Side note...At that time in history, state governments were trying to get Federals to ban child labor. The Federals refused to act due to pressure of huge corporations. There was no mass indignation by the upper and middle class. Society was perfectly content that children of the poor were required to work. Now people go into hysteria over a pledge. Government and running dog media are TV educating Americans and it shows. In the absence of a fully informed citizenry it's not too difficult to get people to weave their own nooses. And govts "duly elected by the citizens" does not transfer moral responsibility for govt misdeeds, as you implied. Are you responsible for the murders of JFK, MLK, RFK and John John? Are we responsible for WACO, Ruby Ridge, 9/11, GITMO and Abu Ghraib?
If that's not an argument against compulsory loyalty then nothing except the tormented logic of the entire concept is. " As a citizen, I would hesitate to see any political party outlawed on the basis of its political ideology. However, if it is proven that an organization is an agent of foreign power, or in any way not a legitimate political party -- and I think the government is capable of proving that -- then that is another matter." - Ronald Reagan to House Un-American Activities Committee, October 23, 1947
If that's not an argument against compulsory loyalty then nothing except the tormented logic of the entire concept is. Well said my friend. I can't imagine why a second class non citizen who isn't permitted to drive on Jew-Only roads would advocate shocking violence against a nation of sociopathic spree killers whose sense of entitlement includes the harvest of organs from their victims. Those who refuse to accept that the border of Israel is the area in front of every Israeli tank may be killed with impunity, including naive kids like Rachel Corrie.
Factual, no implication anywhere.
Isn't this from Chairman Mao's Little Red Book? The commies use it when criticizing "the bourgeoisie, the bureaucrats and the foul breathed, running dog capitalists....." Some from your generation were pro organized labor moderates and some were anarchists. Were you by chance influenced by Mother Jones, Emma Goldman or someone in between? (Eleanor Roosevelt)
What I say or think has nothing to do with the...intent...of the author. Perhaps a re-reading of the original article, with an open mind, would be helpful for many that have expressed interest. The author set out with an agenda in mind, namely gather undiscerning, easily led readers, into accepting his personal goal of doing his part, undermining the foundation of this society and our country. On 4um he has succeeded in gathering in the lemmings that cannot think for themselves, and deriding those that raise questions.
Columbus did not discover America. That is why I hated history in school. They lied to us about the true foundations of this country and who actually discovered it first. FYI, Amerigo Vespucci discovered America and is where the name America derived from. More here on that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amerigo_Vespucci And here too
See, perfect example of brainwashing. I took an adults word for it. Columbus was also one of earliest recorders of a UFO. They did NOT teach me that. Lot of things turned out to be false.
Which is why all of our so-called history books need to be tossed in the fires and re-written on an actual account of what this country was actually founded under and who actually discovered it first.
Good heavens no.
Why doesn't someone drop a proposal to build gulags into the suggestion box? An Amerikan Siberia would provide an outlet for pent up frustrations (like yours) and "The Greatest Generation" could blossom into their fullest as party apparatchiks, snitching on the young people that they so evidently despise.
Good post. There is evidence that Leif Erikson became the first Viking to explore the land of Vinland (A city in New Jersey I think. Oh, wait, that's Vineland!)
There is reason to believe that Pastor Bellamy, like most of us, well knew that Columbus had not discovered "America". The actual intention is included herein... """Assigned to the magazine's promotions department, the 37-year-old Bellamy set to work arranging a patriotic program for schools around the country to coincide with opening ceremonies for the Columbian Exposition in October 1892, the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus' arrival in the New World. Bellamy successfully lobbied Congress for a resolution endorsing the school ceremony, and he helped convince President Benjamin Harrison to issue a """proclamation""" declaring a Columbus Day holiday.""" The numerous outraged denizens of 4um, that see the original pledge as being an affront to all mankind, do indeed have many large, illustrious, groups that join with them in their campaign to save the children. Namely World atheism, CPA, communist party of America, socialists and of course two billion followers of Islam. Shoulder to shoulder for a much better world.
The only thing that should be noted in the textbooks was that Christopher Columbus brought the slaves to America. More here on that. www.rense.com/general81/d3ss.htm If you want to understand the history of the true early America, you need to look to the Middle East as far back as in the biblical times where Africa was given its name by the Romans but previously was known as Ethiopia. And that continent as well as the other parts of the Middle East were named after the Patriarchs Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Esau, and other prominent Patriarchs that made the Middle East an important part of human civilization. Now when you think like that you start to wonder where did America get its name from. Was it founded by a patriarch? The answer is "No". It was founded by an Italian cartographer who had a genuine interest in discovering New Found land which was South America and then North America. America not only got its name from Amerigo Vespucci but it became the New World.
I'd add to the above by stating that in my opinion only BLIND Al-LIEGE-ance could be responsible for a continued loyalty to the failed tyrannical STATE which the U.S. has become. The acts committed by the U.S. for the past 100 years (or more) are cloaked in patriotic lies and other types of indoctrination preached and propagandized through every media until almost an entire society that yet calls themselves free are nothing other than slaves under mind control serving the evil they once rejected. The word allegiance or liege has no place whatsoever in a free society, NONE ! "Honest, April 15th is the real April Fool's Day". "The almighty Dollar ain't worth a buck". "White Lives Matter Most if you're white" Doug Scheidt
Before and after this horrible Nazi style saluting the flag was accepted and installed in schools, there were draconian laws passed requiring that all children must attend schools provided by the """STATE""", or equivalent thereof, or the parents could be arrested and or the children taken away. The STATE would decide what the children MUST be taught. We the taxpayers would pay for it. Every year I receive a bill for $2700 school tax, pay it or out I go. Me, I dont worry bout that, it was that terrible pledge that I lie awake at night thinking about. P.S. When I was a kid, my main worry was where the next meal was coming from, not some pledge that meant nothing then or ever. it was my stomach that counted.
Then you grow up and the "adults" of our society spend volumes of paper and energy to convince us the most important things to worry about is the color of our skin, gender identification, how we assign use of bathrooms, how we respond to our national anthem, specific rights for each and every identifiable diversity, and, of course, the pledge of allegiance. By the time you wade through half of that bullshit, you have forgotten what your REAL priorities are, i.e., your personal responsibilities to yourself and your family, how to pay for your own needs and how to accept responsibility for your own actions. Add to all that the fact that in many corners of this country we encourage our young to use pot and other substances to live in a fog. WHAT THE HELL EVER HAPPENED TO THE REPUBLIC WE INHERITED?
When I was a kid I enjoyed saying the pledge of allegiance and felt like I was part of something bigger than myself. As life experiences piled up over the years I determined that the something bigger than myself was a figment of my imagination (A legal and moral fiction) and it was evil. I quit supporting it. "Honest, April 15th is the real April Fool's Day". "The almighty Dollar ain't worth a buck". "White Lives Matter Most if you're white" Doug Scheidt
It happened in the middle of the 19th century. But of libera gews started whining about racism and slavery. A war ensued that killed America and left a toxic corporation in its stead, the country placed forever under admiralty jurisdiction.
_____________________________________________________________ USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um
Few Americans realize or understand that the overriding goal of state mandated education for children, had a two fold goal in mind. The dual purpose was to end child labor, something that the Federal government refused to do. Way back then, the corporations owned and operated our government. With no action from Federal, the states one by one passed mandatory school attendance laws, thus an end run to circumvent the Federal. Massachusetts Was the first to do so, Mississippi the last about 1916. Twice the US Supreme Court ruled that child labor was legal. Saying a pledge, written by a Baptist Minister, for the children of the world, is not something to add to our rising PC tide. Now the Federal government is in charge of the school system that they fought against for so many years.
Disagree. It has been happening since the beginning of time. Homo sapiens, good AND bad, have been behind each and every form of government that purported to "govern" over the masses (more Homo sapiens). Then, as now, the weaknesses, imperfections, and frailties associated with human beings remain the same. The difference between one period of time over another is in the level of success the evildoers have over the numbers that "go along to get along". It is obvious to me that there are at present more Homo sapiens willing to ignore their inherent responsibilities and obligations in exchange for other Homo sapiens' promise to satisfy their wants and desires.
Yes, the pledge isn't the danger, it's the state worship mentality that programs people to defend it, almost religiously. If the state can train those to defend a "meaningless pledge" then it has secured an unhealthy control over the supposedly sovereign people that the state is supposed to serve. Those who defend the pledge insist on reversing those roles. They also imply that "the commies are bad" while leaving the vacuum filled with the presumption that "banker war-fed Zio-capitalism is good". It isn't. "I was hungry as a kid so, don't question my political loyalties". Well, I was hungry as a kid, too, eating sugar on bread for dinner at the end of the every month. But that doesn't make truth any less true or entitle me to browbeat others with a peculiar mix of self pity and political nonsense.
As a matter of interest, what time period might that have been?
#47. To: Cynicom (#44)
#48. To: Cynicom (#39)
#49. To: Cynicom (#37)
Pimply faced little second john down front at railroad station, reading the oath as he did not know it. There were many men crying, many calling the pimply face horrible names.
#50. To: NeoconsNailed (#48)
So they mistook you for a "draft dodger"
#51. To: NeoconsNailed (#49)
What's with all that?
#52. To: Cynicom (#50)
bounty hunters
#53. To: Cynicom (#51)
#54. To: Cynicom, noone222, Lod (#10)
Americans are far too eager to jump aboard any and all derogatory epistles written about this country. Buying into every negative regurgitation spewing from any pen, without knowledge and consideration of intent is not good.
#55. To: NeoconsNailed (#53)
Why were they calling the pimply faced guy names, where was their patriotism.
#56. To: Cynicom (#55)
(Edited)
#57. To: HOUNDDAWG (#54)
#58. To: Ada, Cynicom (#27)
When the pledge was required in government schoolrooms and there was a penalty for refusal (even if it were just a trip to the principal's office), that's force.
#59. To: Cynicom (#57)
As one born into the lowest class of American society, during the Great Depression, I have never held any illusions about the upper classes.
#60. To: HOUNDDAWG (#58)
"Loyalty oaths were common during World War II. In support of Roosevelt's National Recovery Administration, 100,000 school children marched to Boston Common and swore a loyalty oath administered by the mayor, "I promise as a good American citizen to do my part for the NRA.
#61. To: HOUNDDAWG (#58)
#62. To: Dakmar (#60)
"Loyalty oaths were common during World War II. In support of Roosevelt's National Recovery Administration, 100,000 school children marched to Boston Common and swore a loyalty oath administered by the mayor, "I promise as a good American citizen to do my part for the NRA.
#63. To: Cynicom (#61)
Any government, state or federal that misused it in any way was duly elected by the citizens.
#64. To: HOUNDDAWG (#62)
(Edited)
Avigdor Lieberman proposed that Israel's citizens should sign a loyalty oath or lose their right to vote. In his The Jewish Week article, Lieberman tried to explain his party's "no loyalty – no citizenship" campaign by writing: "During Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, I was appalled by the calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and for renewed suicide bombings that some Israeli Arab leaders called for at pro-Hamas rallies. Although 'responsible citizenship' had always been part of our platform, I realized that this was a burning issue that had to take top priority."[21] He explained his "responsible citizenship" platform and compared his position to the express policy of nations around the world, saying: "In the U.S., those requesting a Green Card must take an oath that they will fulfill the rights and duties of citizenship."[22]
#65. To: Dakmar (#64)
Avigdor Lieberman proposed that Israel's citizens should sign a loyalty oath or lose their right to vote. In his The Jewish Week article, Lieberman tried to explain his party's "no loyalty – no citizenship" campaign by writing: "During Operation Cast Lead in Gaza, I was appalled by the calls for the destruction of the State of Israel and for renewed suicide bombings that some Israeli Arab leaders called for at pro-Hamas rallies. Although 'responsible citizenship' had always been part of our platform, I realized that this was a burning issue that had to take top priority."[21] He explained his "responsible citizenship" platform and compared his position to the express policy of nations around the world, saying: "In the U.S., those requesting a Green Card must take an oath that they will fulfill the rights and duties of citizenship."[22]
#66. To: HOUNDDAWG (#63)
Any government, state or federal that misused it in any way was duly elected by the citizens.
#67. To: Cynicom (#61)
...running dog media....
#68. To: HOUNDDAWG, All (#67)
Were you by chance influenced
#69. To: Cynicom (#61)
(Edited)
It was written by one man, to honor the 400th year of Columbus discovering America.
#70. To: purplerose (#69)
Columbus did not discover America.
#71. To: Cynicom (#70)
#72. To: purplerose (#71)
Which is why all of our so-called history books need to be tossed in the fires and re-written
#73. To: Cynicom (#17)
Anyone that feels the pledge is a burden or crime against humanity, is free to leave anytime. So far, I will dance with the girl what brung me.
#74. To: purplerose, Cynicom (#69)
Columbus did not discover America. That is why I hated history in school. They lied to us about the true foundations of this country and who actually discovered it first. FYI, Amerigo Vespucci discovered America and is where the name America derived from. More here on that
#75. To: HOUNDDAWG (#74)
#76. To: Cynicom (#72)
#77. To: HOUNDDAWG, Cynicom (#54)
"My country right or wrong" is the fertile loam in which tyrannies sprout. It's the blanket used to hide the napalming of women and kids, and the abandonment of our sons left in hostile combatants' hands.
#78. To: noone222, Lod, All (#77)
The word allegiance or liege has no place whatsoever in a free society, NONE !
#79. To: Cynicom, noone222, Lod, All (#78)
When I was a kid, my main worry was where the next meal was coming from ...
#80. To: Cynicom (#78)
(Edited)
P.S. When I was a kid, my main worry was where the next meal was coming from, not some pledge that meant nothing then or ever. it was my stomach that counted.
#81. To: Phant2000 (#79)
#82. To: Phant2000, All (#79)
#83. To: NeoconsNailed (#81)
(Edited)
It happened in the middle of the 19th century.
#84. To: Cynicom, noone222, Lod (#78)
When I was a kid, my main worry was where the next meal was coming from, not some pledge that meant nothing then or ever.
#85. To: HOUNDDAWG (#84)
Well, I was hungry as a kid,
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