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Religion
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Title: The Brutal Christ of the Armageddonites; Religious fanaticism in American foreign policy
Source: AntiWar.com
URL Source: http://www.antiwar.com/utley/?articleid=8588
Published: Feb 24, 2006
Author: Jon Basil Utley
Post Date: 2006-02-24 10:47:23 by Brian S
Keywords: Armageddonites;, fanaticism, Religious
Views: 163
Comments: 14

Most Americans don't comprehend how our nation's foreign policy is affected by a small minority of religious fundamentalists. This Vanity Fair piece on the best-selling "Left Behind" novels provides a glimpse into their worldview:

"Far from being a Prince of Peace, the Christ depicted in the 'Left Behind' series is a vengeful Messiah – so vengeful that the death and destruction he causes to unconverted Jews, to secularists, to anyone who is not born again, is far, far greater than the crimes committed by the most brutal dictators in human history. When He arrives on the scene in Glorious Appearing, Christ merely has to speak and 'men and women, soldiers and horses, seemed to explode where they stood. It was as if the very words of the Lord had superheated their blood, causing it to burst through their veins and skin.' Soon, [Tim] LaHaye and [Jerry] Jenkins write, tens of thousands of foot soldiers for the Antichrist are dying in the goriest manner imaginable, their internal organs oozing out, 'their blood pooling and rising in the unforgiving brightness of the glory of Christ.'

"After the initial bloodletting, Nicolae Carpathia gathers his still-vast army, covering hundreds of square miles, and prepares for the conflict at Megiddo. As the battle for Armageddon is about to start, Rayford Steele climbs atop his Hummer to watch Christ harvest the grapes of wrath. Steele looks at the hordes of soldiers assembled by the Antichrist, and 'tens of thousands burst open at the words of Jesus.' They scream in pain and die before hitting the ground, their blood pouring forth. Soon, a massive river of blood is flowing throughout the Holy Land."

The "Left Behind" series is also very politically current, with its focus on Israel, the United Nations representing evil world government, and Iraq playing a key role for the Antichrist. In the words of Melani McAlister, these novels show vividly how "the conservative obsession with biblical prophecy is increasingly shaping our secular reality." I once tried to read one of the books and opened a page where giant grasshoppers (locusts, in Biblical terms) were stripping the flesh from live sinners, post-Rapture. I got bored and concluded that the books were horror stories for Christians who would have felt guilty reading stories about blood and gore if they were not "religious." (I did, however, see the movie Left Behind, based on the first book.)

The foundation for Armageddon beliefs is the Book of Revelation in the Bible. Revelation has a controversial history: Martin Luther doubted its canonical status and included it only as an appendix to his translation of the Bible. In addition to their focus on Revelation, American fundamentalists of the "dispensationalist" variety stress the vengeful God of the Old Testament. They believe that nearly all of humanity (including Jews who don't convert) will be "left behind" to die horrible deaths, after which Christ will establish a thousand-year reign of paradise on earth.

Arab, Egyptian, Armenian, and other Middle Eastern Christians interfere with their thesis, so the Armageddonites try to hide their existence. Pat Robertson's 700 Club, for instance, refused to show a segment about Christian Arabs. Jerry Falwell's tours of Israel purposely avoid them, according to Grace Halsell, who traveled with Falwell's group and wrote several books about the Armageddon lobby. And far from merely believing in an apocalypse at a time of God's choosing, the dispensationalists work to "hurry up God" by opposing any peace efforts in the Middle East. In March 2004, after being bombarded with letters protesting President Bush's "roadmap for peace," the White House held a special meeting with leading Christian fundamentalists to explain that removing Israeli settlements from Gaza would not interfere with God's plans for Armageddon (because Gaza has no sites of Biblical significance).

A major reason the Armageddonites have become so powerful is that most journalists can't comprehend that millions of Americans could really want, in this day and age, their God to destroy most of the human race, much less that they are donating millions to promote it (subsidizing settlements on the West Bank and paying for Russian Jews to immigrate to Israel in order to fulfill prophecies faster). Nor do most Americans know that Armageddonites are in the highest levels of government. But it was erstwhile House Majority Leader Tom DeLay who argued that the Iraq war should be supported because it is a precursor to the second coming of Christ. He also tried to undermine the Bush "roadmap for peace" when he visited Israel.

The Armageddonites have also backed brutal tactics in pursuit of their favored policies. Lt. General William G. "Jerry" Boykin is deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence and was heavily involved in the torture scandals. Christian Zionist Sen. James Inhofe of Oklahoma was the only senator to publicly condone torture of prisoners of war. Other torture-supporting politicians were almost all from insular, religious red states with little knowledge of or concern for the outside world. Almost none of the leading fundamentalists outside of government have condemned torture (with the notable exception of Chuck Colson of Prison Fellowship).

The aforementioned Vanity Fair article explains the fundamentalists' chief motivation: vengeance.

"As befits the manifesto of a counterculture, the 'Left Behind' series is a revenge fantasy, in which right-wing Christians win out over the rational, scientific, modern, post-Enlightenment world. The books represent the apotheosis of a culture that is waging war against liberals, gays, Muslims, Arabs, the UN, and 'militant secularists' of all stripes – whom it accuses of destroying Christian America, murdering millions of unborn children, assaulting the Christian family by promoting promiscuity and homosexuality, and driving Christ out of the public square."

This is how the dispensationalist ideology, dreamed up in the mid-19th century in the poor hills of Scotland and dispersed to the backwoods of Virginia and the deserts of Texas and Oklahoma, became a major factor in American foreign policy. (For another interesting analysis of pop apocalypticism, see this piece by Gene Lyons.)

A few educated evangelicals, however, are now questioning where their brethren are trying to take America. In January, the New York Times carried a piece by Charles Marsh, a self-declared evangelical, about how many ministers agitated for war on Iraq, even telling their congregations that it would help expedite biblical prophecy. Eighty-seven percent of white evangelical Christians supported the attack, and some even linked Saddam Hussein with wicked King Nebuchadnezzar of Biblical fame. Marsh:

"Recently, I took a few days to reread the war sermons delivered by influential evangelical ministers during the lead up to the Iraq war. That period, from the fall of 2002 through the spring of 2003, is not one I will remember fondly. Many of the most respected voices in American evangelical circles blessed the president's war plans, even when doing so required them to recast Christian doctrine.

"Charles Stanley, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Atlanta, whose weekly sermons are seen by millions of television viewers, led the charge with particular fervor. 'We should offer to serve the war effort in any way possible,' said Mr. Stanley, a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. 'God battles with people who oppose him, who fight against him and his followers.' …

"Tim LaHaye, the co-author of the hugely popular 'Left Behind' series, spoke of Iraq as 'a focal point of end-time events,' whose special role in the earth's final days will become clear after invasion, conquest, and reconstruction. For his part, Jerry Falwell boasted that 'God is pro-war' in the title of an essay he wrote in 2004."

The common theme is that America must do God's work, which is surely the sin of pride for real Christians. One of the "Left Behind" characters muses about how the few survivors in America after Christ's bloody return could "start rebuilding the country as, finally for real, a Christian nation." Their desire to violently reshape society brings us full circle back to Stalin, Pol Pot, and other secular horsemen of the apocalypse.

Marsh concludes,

"What will it take for evangelicals in the United States to recognize our mistaken loyalty? We have increasingly isolated ourselves from the shared faith of the global Church, and there is no denying that our Faustian bargain for access and power has undermined the credibility of our moral and evangelistic witness in the world. The Hebrew prophets might call us to repentance, but repentance is a tough demand for a people utterly convinced of their righteousness."

Many influential evangelicals reject the Armageddon agenda. For example, Tim Wildmon's American Family Association's magazine, in its review of a movie about the Crusades, Kingdom of Heaven, notes "the futility of Christian efforts to build the kingdom of heaven here on earth."

"Such a 'war of the cross' should strike Christians as a contradiction in terms. A literal war in the name of Jesus – a 'Christian war' – is an oxymoron, like 'hateful Christian.' Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world, otherwise His followers would draw swords to defend Him – and presumably the kingdom itself (John 18:36)."

The large World magazine doesn't promote the "Left Behind" mentality, and non-evangelical leaders of the religious Right also disagree with dispensationalism. One of the first critics to write about the phenomenon was Gary North.

The Armageddonites, despite their self-proclaimed goodness, are a brutal, ignorant, and vengeful people. They have also become a major force dragging America to the abyss of endless war, a domestic police state (they care little for constitutional freedoms), financial ruin, and the enmity of the world.


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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 11.

#1. To: Brian S, *Bereans* (#0)

Below is the article linked above as "a piece by Charles Marsh" I encourage all to read it.

(more thoughts later on the "Armageddonites").

------

New York Times



January 20, 2006
Op-Ed Contributor
Wayward Christian Soldiers
By CHARLES MARSH

Charlottesville, Va.

IN the past several years, American evangelicals, and I am one of them, have amassed greater political power than at any time in our history. But at what cost to our witness and the integrity of our message?

Recently, I took a few days to reread the war sermons delivered by influential evangelical ministers during the lead up to the Iraq war. That period, from the fall of 2002 through the spring of 2003, is not one I will remember fondly. Many of the most respected voices in American evangelical circles blessed the president's war plans, even when doing so required them to recast Christian doctrine.

Charles Stanley, pastor of the First Baptist Church of Atlanta, whose weekly sermons are seen by millions of television viewers, led the charge with particular fervor. "We should offer to serve the war effort in any way possible," said Mr. Stanley, a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention. "God battles with people who oppose him, who fight against him and his followers." In an article carried by the convention's Baptist Press news service, a missionary wrote that "American foreign policy and military might have opened an opportunity for the Gospel in the land of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob."

As if working from a slate of evangelical talking points, both Franklin Graham, the evangelist and son of Billy Graham, and Marvin Olasky, the editor of the conservative World magazine and a former advisor to President Bush on faith-based policy, echoed these sentiments, claiming that the American invasion of Iraq would create exciting new prospects for proselytizing Muslims. Tim LaHaye, the co-author of the hugely popular "Left Behind" series, spoke of Iraq as "a focal point of end-time events," whose special role in the earth's final days will become clear after invasion, conquest and reconstruction. For his part, Jerry Falwell boasted that "God is pro-war" in the title of an essay he wrote in 2004.

The war sermons rallied the evangelical congregations behind the invasion of Iraq. An astonishing 87 percent of all white evangelical Christians in the United States supported the president's decision in April 2003. Recent polls indicate that 68 percent of white evangelicals continue to support the war. But what surprised me, looking at these sermons nearly three years later, was how little attention they paid to actual Christian moral doctrine. Some tried to square the American invasion with Christian "just war" theory, but such efforts could never quite reckon with the criterion that force must only be used as a last resort. As a result, many ministers dismissed the theory as no longer relevant.

Some preachers tried to link Saddam Hussein with wicked King Nebuchadnezzar of Biblical fame, but these arguments depended on esoteric interpretations of the Old Testament book of II Kings and could not easily be reduced to the kinds of catchy phrases that are projected onto video screens in vast evangelical churches. The single common theme among the war sermons appeared to be this: our president is a real brother in Christ, and because he has discerned that God's will is for our nation to be at war against Iraq, we shall gloriously comply.

Such sentiments are a far cry from those expressed in the Lausanne Covenant of 1974. More than 2,300 evangelical leaders from 150 countries signed that statement, the most significant milestone in the movement's history. Convened by Billy Graham and led by John Stott, the revered Anglican evangelical priest and writer, the signatories affirmed the global character of the church of Jesus Christ and the belief that "the church is the community of God's people rather than an institution, and must not be identified with any particular culture, social or political system, or human ideology."

On this page, David Brooks correctly noted that if evangelicals elected a pope, it would most likely be Mr. Stott, who is the author of more than 40 books on evangelical theology and Christian devotion. Unlike the Pope John Paul II, who said that invading Iraq would violate Catholic moral teaching and threaten "the fate of humanity," or even Pope Benedict XVI, who has said there were "not sufficient reasons to unleash a war against Iraq," Mr. Stott did not speak publicly on the war. But in a recent interview, he shared with me his abiding concerns.

"Privately, in the days preceding the invasion, I had hoped that no action would be taken without United Nations authorization," he told me. "I believed then and now that the American and British governments erred in proceeding without United Nations approval." Reverend Stott referred me to "War and Rumors of War, " a chapter from his 1999 book, "New Issues Facing Christians Today," as the best account of his position. In that essay he wrote that the Christian community's primary mission must be "to hunger for righteousness, to pursue peace, to forbear revenge, to love enemies, in other words, to be marked by the cross."

What will it take for evangelicals in the United States to recognize our mistaken loyalty? We have increasingly isolated ourselves from the shared faith of the global Church, and there is no denying that our Faustian bargain for access and power has undermined the credibility of our moral and evangelistic witness in the world. The Hebrew prophets might call us to repentance, but repentance is a tough demand for a people utterly convinced of their righteousness.

Charles Marsh, a professor of religion at the University of Virginia, is the author of "The Beloved Community: How Faith Shapes Social Justice, from the Civil Rights Movement to Today."

Starwind  posted on  2006-02-24   12:20:54 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Starwind (#1)

We should offer to serve the war effort in any way possible," said Mr. Stanley, a former president of the Southern Baptist Convention.

"the church is the community of God's people rather than an institution, and must not be identified with any particular culture, social or political system, or human ideology."

In that essay he wrote that the Christian community's primary mission must be "to hunger for righteousness, to pursue peace, to forbear revenge, to love enemies, in other words, to be marked by the cross."

I lost all respect for Stanley when he supported the war..

The rest I quoted I absolutely agree with.. I do not understand how those who call themselves Christians openly call for the elimination and some the outright killing of muslims.. Totally anti Christian philosophy.. maybe they'll be quite shocked when they meet their Maker.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-24   13:01:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Zipporah, all (#3)

I've seen others ponder (and most recently Zipporah above) the question of:

I do not understand how those who call themselves Christians openly call for the elimination and some the outright killing of muslims.. Totally anti Christian philosophy.. maybe they'll be quite shocked when they meet their Maker.

It is a reasonable question, but the answers defy the simplistic characterization of "Armageddonites", though the author Jon Basil Utley indeed raises legitimate criticisms, sadly.

For those who are familiar with my Christian expositions, I ask that you suspend your disbelief if only momentarily, at least long enough to understand the explanation of what goes wrong.

Firstly, some points about genuine biblical prophecy.

What is oft misunderstood about prophecy, especially end-times prophecy such as Revelation, is that it is not God describing how God will mysteriously manipulate events behind the scenes to bring about what God has decided the prophecy will be, no. Rather such end-times prophecy is God, who is outside of time and foreknows the future, is essentially bringing future news headlines back into our present and publishing them in the Bible. The prophecy is not so much what God designed it to be, as it is what we (humanity) will create it to be through our own ineptitude. God is not cause, we are the cause. God is the reporter, we are the disbelieving readership of our own consequences.

Keep that thought in mind as you read further. That God is reporting to us what tomorrow's headlines will be due to our own actions today - that is end-times prophecy. God is foretelling us our future caused by our actions.

Also, actions that we humans intend for our own self-serving purposes, God will use to bring about His righteous purposes. An example is where Joseph's brothers were angry that Joseph seemed to be Isaac's favorite child and was destined for authority over them all, and so they sought to rid themselves of Joseph and sold him into slavery. Joseph's brother's intended evil. But Joseph ended up in charge over all Egypt saving it (and his brothers and family) from famine and establishing the circumstances in Egypt whereby the Jewish tribes would grow from twelve single families to upwards of 2.5 million Israelites who would then embark upon the Exodus to the promised land. God used the evil intended by Joseph's brothers for God's good purposes - to grow up the people through whom God would reveal Himself and bring the Messiah, Jesus Christ.

In today's terms a similar dichotomy exists. It is often argued that there no longer exist "true Jews" and that the modern nation of " Israel" was brought about illegitimately and is populated by impure Ashkenazi Jews. Without delving into that argument, let me point out that political manipulations of the Jews, British, Arabs, Germans, Nazis, UN, etc. to take the British Mandate of Palestine won from the Ottoman Empire, and with it establish modern Israel and further populate it with "Russian/European Jewry" - all intended their own self-serving purposes.

But again God has used these unwitting machinations of humankind for His own good purposes.

Just like God permitted Joseph to be sold into slavery and used Egypt to raise up a Jewish people, God has permitted mankind's modern political manipulations to reform the promised land under the regathered people, as prophecy said would happen. God's purpose in all this (as it remains largely future) is not entirely clear but it will be to further demonstrate the truth of God's character and salvation in Christ the Son. There will come a time when we humans will be able to look back upon fulfilled prophecy and see that much.

End-times prophecy is tomorrow's headlines of what God has permitted us to do of our own free will, but which God will use to ultimately fulfill His purposes.

Rightly or wrongly, Jerusalem has truly become the prophesied "stumbling stone" and the center of world attention. Rightly or wrongly, the world's geopolitical forces increasingly line up against Israel. Rightly or wrongly, wars and rumors of wars are on the increase, famine on the increase, plague and pestilence on the increase, lawlessness on the increase, the love of many grows cold, churches grow lukewarm and many Christians forsake their first love - following Christ.

What the "Armageddonites" forget is that biblical history and prophecy tells it like happened (or will happen) "rightly or wrongly", warts and all. They forget their actions (like those of Joseph's brothers) can fulfill prophecy for the wrong reasons, but which actions God foresaw and will nonetheless use for His good purposes.

Critics of the Left Behind series point out correctly it is terribly and tritely written. Those are legitimate reasons to pan it for literary purposes. That does not, however, give theological license to argue that if it's badly written, then it must also be biblically incorrect.

It is difficult, if not impossible, to expand the limited end-times prophetic information in the Bible into a 12-volume work of 'fiction' without introducing 'filler' with which anyone may disagree. But the rapture and the characterizations of the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments have their basis in biblical truth. I will touch upon just a couple that Utley also touched upon.

Utley references an article, "this piece by Gene Lyons" (The Apocalypse Will Be Televised - Armageddon in an age of entertainment), in which Lyons takes four of the Left Behind books to task but seemingly ascribes their literary failings to the "rapture racket":

How seriously the rest of us need to take a primitive revenge fantasy like the Left Behind novels is hard to say. While daydreaming about Armageddon, most readers, I57;m guessing, are also signing off on thirty-year mortgage notes and keeping their life insurance up to date. Intellectually, the "rapture racket,"as Barbara R. Rossing calls it in her lucid and passionate book The Rapture Exposed, owes its origins to nineteenth-century turmoil over Darwinism. A professor of the New Testament at the Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago, Rossing argues persuasively that certain people are attracted to Darby's "dispensationalist system with its Rapture theology because it is so comprehensive and rational - almost science-like - a feature that made it especially appealing during battles over evolution during the 1920s and 1930s."

Utley, Lyons, Rossing, et al, seemingly would have us believe that Darby57;s "dispensationalist system with its Rapture theology..." lies at the heart of all the "armageddonite revenge fantasy". That would be a mistake and to overlook the forest for the trees.

I have written about the rapture before (http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/ readart.cgi?ArtNum=16439&Disp=5#C5) pointing out it is a real biblical event that was taught by the Apostle Paul as well as several of the 2nd century church fathers. The Rapture is biblical and it did not begin with Darby.

Likewise, dispensationalism is biblical. A "dispensation" is an "order of things regarded as established or controlled by God" or a "stage in the progressive revelation of God constituting a distinctive stewardship or rule of life." Anyone who believes in the basic truth of the Bible is inherently a dispensationalist who believes in the very minimum of at least two dispensations:

  1. before 'the ministry of Jesus Christ' and
  2. after 'His crucifixion and resurrection'.

Different doctrinal schools argue about the number and type of dispensations, but that is a matter of degree - all are dispensationalists, and it was thus long before Darby (and Scofield) happened upon the scene.

So when you read some argument about the rapture or dispensationalism, the thought in your mind ought to be something like "Well, ok, I know that the rapture is biblical and God's plan unfolded in at least two different dispensations (and more depending on further distinctions), but what specifically is being argued? The timing of the rapture can not be known, Jesus Himself said only the Father knows when that will happen, and Jesus also said blessed is the person who heeds the prophecy of Revelation. So what does the Bible actually say for or against your argument?"

As for the 'revenge' and 'gore' that Utley and others complain about in the Left Behind series, that is merely a fictionalized account of what Revelation prophecys will happen during the 7 Seal, Trumpet and Bowl judgments. For example, Rev 14:20 (NASB) records "And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles."

Blood as high as horses bridle for a distance of 200 miles. That is a lot of blood and gore. LaHaye and Jenkins did not invent that, but they are trying to fold what the Bible prophesys will happen into a fictionalized account of a battle that results in that much blood. It is without precedent, and not surprisingly the fictionalized story seems excessive to anyone not versed in Revelation prophecy.

So of what in fact are the "Armageddonites" guilty?

Well, certainly bad writing.

But additionally, they have no biblical basis to 'help God out' by trying to make Revelation events happen. Minimally, rightly or wrongly, they will have become part of the fulfillment of prophecy, their intentions being a misplaced human prideful effort to force prophecy, but which God will nonetheless use for His good purpose.

But as Graham and Stott point out, real Christian's, ought not to" identify with any particular culture, social or political system, or human ideology" and should instead "hunger for righteousness, pursue peace, forbear revenge, love enemies, and be marked by the cross". And as Vitagliano writes in his movie review of "Kingdom of Heaven" (about the crusades):

Such a "war of the cross" should strike Christians as a contradiction in terms. A literal war in the name of Jesus 52; a "Christian war" 52; is an oxymoron, like "hateful Christian." Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world, otherwise His followers would draw swords to defend Him 52; and presumably the kingdom itself (John 18:36).

In Scripture, the Christian is certainly called to war, but it is a spiritual war, fought primarily with spiritual weapons. Believers honor Christ, not by hating their enemies, but by loving them.

The same applies to "armageddonites" who would thoughtlessly promote war between the US and Middle-Eastern states over Israel or any other cause (oil, WMDs, etc).

The question originally asked then was how those who call themselves Christians openly call for the elimination and some the outright killing of muslims?

The answer is many do so out of a sincere but abject ignorance of where the current administration (and prior) have lead them. They genuinely do not see that the wars are based on lies and deceptions, and the blame can be placed just as much at the feet of the "good guys" as well as the usual culprits. Then too are those who profess to be Christian leaders and who ought to know better, but in their pride and hubris seem to have forgotten just how deceitful is the heart - their hearts.

C.S. Lewis was quoted by Vitagliano in his movie review:

"Terrific energy is expended - civilizations are built up - excellent institutions devised; but each time something goes wrong. Some fatal flaw always brings the selfish and cruel people to the top, and it all slides back into misery and ruin,".

It does not take a rocket scientist to look at the US (and modern western civilization), to look at what our leadership, our military, our Federal Reserve, our pornography, our Wall Street, etc ad infinitum, have done to the world and to see the ruin encroaching all around, rapidly.

Keep in mind the point of the foregoing explanations was not to defend the authorship of the Left Behind series or the machinations of the " Armageddonites". My purpose was to dissect the issues into what was biblical versus what is not, in the hopes that interested readers might look not to either the " Armageddonites" or the secular media, but rather to the Bible itself for an honest characterization of God and biblical prophecy.

Starwind  posted on  2006-02-24   18:10:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Starwind (#7)

Critics of the Left Behind series point out correctly it is terribly and tritely written. Those are legitimate reasons to pan it for literary purposes. That does not, however, give theological license to argue that if it's badly written, then it must also be biblically incorrect.

**********

Likewise, dispensationalism is biblical.

**********

In Scripture, the Christian is certainly called to war, but it is a spiritual war, fought primarily with spiritual weapons. Believers honor Christ, not by hating their enemies, but by loving them.

On the last point I quoted, I am in total agreement..

My criticism re the Left Behind series etc.. is not due bad writing but rather the basic what I will called flawed view of the book of Revelation and Daniel as well as scriptures in Peter etc. And therefore, I take issue with your statement re dispensationalism. I do agree however with your assessment as to why many fall into the trap re the holy war they think the US is waging:

"But additionally, they have no biblical basis to 'help God out' by trying to make Revelation events happen. Minimally, rightly or wrongly, they will have become part of the fulfillment of prophecy, their intentions being a misplaced human prideful effort to force prophecy, but which God will nonetheless use for His good purpose.

But as Graham and Stott point out, real Christian's, ought not to" identify with any particular culture, social or political system, or human ideology" and should instead "hunger for righteousness, pursue peace, forbear revenge, love enemies, and be marked by the cross"."

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-24   19:34:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Zipporah (#10)

My criticism re the Left Behind series etc.. is not due bad writing but rather the basic what I will called flawed view of the book of Revelation and Daniel as well as scriptures in Peter etc. And therefore, I take issue with your statement re dispensationalism.

I'm not surprised. I will (hopefully some day soon) post parts II and III of my "God's Signature of Authenticity" series which will provide the complete biblical and historical basis for treating Daniel and Revelation and the 7-year tribulation as literal and not allegorical as well as unfullfilled. Then we'll have something more tangible to dissect.

As for taking issue with my statement about dispensationalism, you seemingly have rebranded dispensationalism to mean pre-trib rapture, when in fact the two are different and I myself do not believe in a pre-trib rapture (LaHaye and Jenkins are pre-trib for those who don't know).

You are in fact a dispensationalist. You view the bible as essentially two dispensations, prior to Christ as the dispensation of Jewish covenants, and after Christ as the dispensation of Christ's new covenant in His blood. However, you make no further dispensational distinctions, whereas others distinguish, for example, the Millennial kingdom of Rev 20 as a 3rd dispensation. Yes, I know you do not. That merely makes you a di-dispensationalist and others a tri-dispensationalist, etc.

I've seen upwards of 27 dispensations distinguished (which to me begins to loose sight of the forest for the trees.)

Starwind  posted on  2006-02-24   19:51:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 11.

#12. To: Starwind (#11)

Actually I think this End Times business is one of the FEW places where the Jehovah's Witnesses have it right. If there is a "Tribulation" and an "Armageddon" it probably has to do with a coming series of Super Powerful NATURAL disasters that were set to go off at a certain time. (Yellowstone and other "Super Caldera" Valcanoes, Super Tsunamis from collapsing islands, Asteroid impact, etc.) The Ressurection/Translation to Immortality/Second Coming will come after all these things are set off with NO pre disaster "Rapture".

Coral Snake  posted on  2006-02-24 20:44:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Starwind (#11)

You are in fact a dispensationalist. You view the bible as essentially two dispensations, prior to Christ as the dispensation of Jewish covenants, and after Christ as the dispensation of Christ's new covenant in His blood. However, you make no further dispensational distinctions, whereas others distinguish, for example, the Millennial kingdom of Rev 20 as a 3rd dispensation. Yes, I know you do not. That merely makes you a di-dispensationalist and others a tri-dispensationalist, etc.

LOL..

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"I'm not surprised. I will (hopefully some day soon) post parts II and III of my "God's Signature of Authenticity" series which will provide the complete biblical and historical basis for treating Daniel and Revelation and the 7-year tribulation as literal and not allegorical as well as unfullfilled. Then we'll have something more tangible to dissect."

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Good that should be interesting...

Zipporah  posted on  2006-02-24 20:53:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 11.

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