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Title: Wither Google/AlltheWeb hits on F4um Metzinger thread???
Source:
Starwind
URL Source: http://N/A
Published: Mar 1, 2006
Author: Starwind
Post Date: 2006-03-01 12:56:07 by Starwind
Keywords: Google/AlltheWeb, Metzinger, thread???
Views: 1744
Comments: 67
It would seem that this Freedom4um posted thread here: (Dallas) Police Deny Excessive Force In Bloody Arrest (black cop, white girl) Has been scrubbed/filtered out of major search engines. Up until a 1-2 weeks ago, it appeared in the 1st 2 or 3 pages of hits on a Google search: but now it is does not appear. Further, if one refines the search to: it still does not appear. However a search for brings up 197 hits specific to Freedom4um, mostly about Michelle Malkin, but none about Michelle Metzinger. I have tried freedom4um site-specific searches for "Dallas", "Ceaphus", "Deep Ellum", "Rick Watkins" and "250-pound guy" and *none* of those searches yields a hit. Further still, similar searches on "All the Web" yield the same results: brings up 250 hits, but the only Freedom4um hit is to the "Latest Articles: Dead Constitution" page which is now an obsolete reference and: 11 - 20 of 250 Results for "Michelle Metzinger" OR "Ceaphus Gordon" Freedom4um.com 51 - 59 of 250 Results for "Michelle Metzinger" OR "Ceaphus Gordon" Derby scuffle officer has internal affairs history All the Web also has a site specific search, but such a search [All the Web] SITE:www.freedom4um.com "Michelle Metzinger" OR "Ceaphus Gordon" yields 68 hits (mostly to sites in addition to freedom4um.com because All the Web's site-specific search is inclusive, but not limited) and the only Freedom4um hits found again are the same two: 21 - 30 of 68 Results for SITE:www.freedom4um.com "Michelle Metzinger" OR Freedom4um.com 31 - 40 of 68 Results for SITE:www.freedom4um.com "Michelle Metzinger" OR 4um: Derby scuffle officer has internal affairs history Google and All the Web both produce numerous hits for numerous websites (news, forums, blogs, etc) discussing Michelle Metzinger, but it would seem the particular thread on Freedom4um wherein we dissected the evidence seems to be the only web-hit of which I'm aware that is no longer served up by these two serach engines. One wonders why. I can't imagine a mistake or bug that affects both Google and Yahoo (All the Web), that precludes only one particular thread that still exists and has continuously existed, when numerous other hits on other sites for the exact same subject matter are still produced. I may be wrong, but I can't imagine any motivation for Ms. Metzinger's legal team to ask these two search engines to remove this specific find, though I can imagine why the City of Dallas or Officer Gordon's legal team might rather this thread not gain further noteriety. But I still have difficulty believing that Google or Yahoo would actually cooperate in excluding this particular hit from search results and I don't see a compelling legal argument that would pass muster to persuade a court to issue an injunction against Google or Yahoo.
... Dubose A witness captured the officer restraining Michelle Metzinger. click to watch The Dallas police ... that occurred between Officer Ceaphus Gordon and Michelle Metzinger, a 25-year ...
more hits from: http://216.133.76.156/cgi-bin/latestarticles.cgi?cn=113 - 29 KB
... scuffle that occurred between Officer Ceaphus Gordon and Michelle Metzinger, a 25-year-old ... concrete after the scuffle between Dallas Officer Ceaphus Gordon and Michelle Metzinger ... more hits from: http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=18092 - 35 KB
Freedom4um
more hits from: http://216.133.76.156/cgi-bin/latestarticles.cgi?cn=113 - 29 KB
Freedom4um ... occurred between Officer Ceaphus Gordon and Michelle Metzinger, a 25 ... between Dallas Officer Ceaphus Gordon and Michelle Metzinger ... questions and comments to webmaster@freedom4um.com ...
more hits from: http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=18092 - 35 KB
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#16. To: Neil McIver, Christine, Zipporah, Jethro Tull, ruthie (#10)
Well, I didn't closely check what date or version was the indexed Michelle thread as I assumed I knew what the hit was. However, upon further testing, t'would seem Google stopped indexing Freedom4um as of September of 2005, judging by the hits on the Market Wrapup threads (which are posted every weekday evening): [Google search] site:www. freedom4um.com "Market WrapUp (01" "06)" produced no hits, and [Google search] site:www. freedom4um.com "Market WrapUp (09" "05)" producted no hits, whereas: [Google search] site:www.freedom4um.com "Market WrapUp (08" "05) " produced some 15,300 hits, the '08-10-05' wrapup thread being ArtNum=10040 It would seem Google stopped indexing Freedom4um altogether last year, not just the Metzinger thread. Ruthie, note this does not (at this point anyhow) appear to be an issue specific to Michelle, but something involving the forum itself.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Now that's even more bizarre ..?
... but I know the "(Dallas) Police Deny Excessive Force In Bloody Arrest (black cop, white girl)" thread appeared in Google searches and it was posted "Post Date: 2006-01-16 20:18:09 by BTP Holdings" So, maybe Google is having some problems with its server farm? Maybe the servers wherein the indexes for this thread and other freedom4um threads are kept are unavailable/offline temporarily? I have noticed some other odd behavior in Google searches I've done recently on entirely innocuous subjects.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Artnum= site:freedom4um.com yields about 2400 hits, not 20k. I have no idea if that's normal behavior or not, but I suspect it is.
On the bright side, Google knows about article number 19460.
about 23,500 from site:www.freedom4um.com for "ArtNum=". The domain prefix 'www' is important in how Google indexes and searches sites. It wasn't always so... it used to be smarter (IRC) one of those oddities of which I spoke.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
When did tos4truth expire?
Feb 2, 2006 (or maybe late Feb 1)
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
The file is dated Feb 18, so that's when it was. Very doubtful that their engine is not conformed to standards. I checked when I installed it to ensure a blank file is interpreted as an open door (treated the same as no robots file existing) and a net source confirmed that to me. Never hurts to double check though. I would expect some time delay for new postings to be indexed. I didn't put it in to make it ignore anything. I only put it in to prevent the apache server from logging an error everytime it's requested, as it accounted for a fair portion of those error entries.
BTW: I have a better name for the software .... Microsoft Internet Exploder. Ok, but no Google hits for So, it would seem to not be related to the robots.txt change, and regardless that would seem to be an innocuous and valid change. Can you tell from the robots.txt warnings when was the last time Google crawled the forum?
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Well, there are 2 stages to the process. The indexing is the collection of the sites, but the second stage is making it available. If you found the Metzinger story indexed on google 2 weeks ago but not now, then obviously it was indexed, and there are still older 4um articles indexed right now. I think it's safe to say that *either* google removed that page from their index OR it's still there and they added a filter on the other side of their system where people do searches to block those would-be hits from showing. Either of those actions would have to have taken place since you saw the positive results of weeks ago. This is not a case of Metzinger's name being filtered upon end users (us) doing searches on their page, as none of the other text combos turn up on google either, so I'm confident the entire 4um page has been either blocked or removed from their index. What's not certain is the reason why. It's possible they regularly purge web pages from their site on occasion just to keep fresh results, or there's some other rotation criteria they use. Maybe pages of url's that contain "cgi-bin" are given less life expectancy because that usually a sign that the content is dynamic / changing. Of course they may also be engaging in outright censorship. It's speculation either way.
BTW: I have a better name for the software .... Microsoft Internet Exploder. Assuming google is censoring here, it doesn't mean that anyone specifically reported 4um to googel and said "remove this page from your index". It's possible (I'd guess likely) that given an outright political censorship scenario on this particular case (assuming), google probably ran a general scan on their index for pages that contained her name along with certain words (inflamatory, perhaps), and removed any that turned up positive. That would be far more efficient, perhaps. That would explain why the original source article is still indexed on the news site and not 4um's page. It doesn't mean they don't hand censor. It may well have been. It just doesn't have to be that way. I should mention that if it was active censorship AND they do have an automated system for censoring, it would strongly suggest a the practice is not unique to Metzinger's case. If.
BTW: I have a better name for the software .... Microsoft Internet Exploder. Your theory could be proved perhaps by running the same check against LibertyForum or someother blog with a good chance of inflammatory titles and references to what happened to her. I doubt if google does anything manually, but they must have some database of phrases/words (with context) that is being created. And, those phrases/words must be entered by someone at least once, I imagine.
"This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when he first appears he is a protector." ~Plato
Can you tell from the robots.txt warnings when was the last time Google crawled the forum? It's done constantly. 2500 times so far today (since 4 AM), the last one within the last 12 minutes. I don't think google is to blame for this, but it just so happens that the last time the forum went down due to the error long being spammed 5000 times per second by apache complaining that mysql was unreachable, the IP that was tied to that error was google's. That was on the 15th and part of the fallout from that was my creation of the robots file to reduce the error log size. That error was associated with PostLiberty, not 4um.
BTW: I have a better name for the software .... Microsoft Internet Exploder. OMG! They're watching us!!! And hiding the evidence. They're really just a mirror for (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Exactly. Do a search on Metzinger and see if other discussion forums come up, or if all hits are news-only sites. Again, yes. That second DB wouldn't necessarily have to be a permanent type thing, though. But *if* there is some politically machined censorship here, then it would require special hand work somewhere along the line. Absolutely.
BTW: I have a better name for the software .... Microsoft Internet Exploder. Yes, I didn't think it would be so much, but that's how many entries there are claiming to be "googlebot" so far today. Maybe someone's MSIE browser is set to report that, but I doubt it. The article searches are random. No rhyme or reason that I can see.
BTW: I have a better name for the software .... Microsoft Internet Exploder. I think carnivore was originally billed as a passive scanner that sits on an ISP and watches all traffic that passes through a pipe leading to a particlular live user, not an active search device for web sites. But that was a long time ago, and Big Brother isn't in the habit of talking about the latest spy techniques. Still, you shouldn't underestimate the resources available to a mega corp with shares valued in the $300-$500 range. They certainly have a nice army of computers.
BTW: I have a better name for the software .... Microsoft Internet Exploder. I did do this BTW, several forums come up, inlcuding an article posted on LP, but not F4um's (or seemingly any Freedom4um hits since Sept '05 - unless as I wondered its a problem at google's server farm). [Google search] "Michelle Metzinger" OR "Ceaphus Gordon" Given the fact they're crawling the site constantly, but reporting no hits, I'd say there's enough factual data at this point to ask Google if they have a problem and/or explanation for no recent F4um hits when searching? I've not been able to have google return any hits on any articles above 10482 or so, though there are apparently "holes" in their search records with preceeding articles, so maybe there are articles indexed since that time. 4um now has over 20,000 articles (this one is 20598), but if you say it was indexed until recently, then in my best estimation, the only thing that could have changed is Google itself.
#17. To: Starwind (#16)
However, upon further testing, t'would seem Google stopped indexing Freedom4um as of September of 2005
#18. To: Neil McIver, christine, zipporah (#16)
#19. To: Starwind (#18)
John 7:13
#20. To: Starwind (#18)
John 7:13
#21. To: Tauzero (#19)
Artnum= site:freedom4um.com yields about 2400 hits, not 20k.
#22. To: Starwind (#21)
John 7:13
#23. To: Tauzero (#22)
When did tos4truth expire?
#24. To: Starwind (#13)
Can you tell us when (date) this change was made?
Perhaps a blank robot.txt file is *not* handled by Google or Yahoo as it ought to be?
I'd like (or perhaps you might) check for Google or All the Web searches on threads posted after the date robot.txt was changed? See if any thing shows up?
Perhaps a "not quite blank" robot.txt file would be better, something that perhaps directs crawlers to ignore a directory that doesn't exist?
-- George Bonser
#25. To: Neil McIver (#24)
The file is dated Feb 18, so that's when it was.
site:www.freedom4um.com
"Market WrapUp (02-08-06)" thru "Market WrapUp (02-15-06)"
#26. To: Starwind (#16)
-- George Bonser
#27. To: robin (#11)
Yes, who brought this to google's attention?
-- George Bonser
#28. To: Neil McIver (#27)
#29. To: Starwind (#25)
-- George Bonser
#30. To: Neil McIver (#29)
It's done constantly. 2500 times so far today (since 4 AM), the last one within the last 12 minutes.
Carnivore
#31. To: robin (#28)
Your theory could be proved perhaps by running the same check against LibertyForum or someother blog with a good chance of inflammatory titles and references to what happened to her.
I doubt if google does anything manually, but they must have some database of phrases/words (with context) that is being created. And, those phrases/words must be entered by someone at least once, I imagine.
-- George Bonser
#32. To: Starwind (#30)
-- George Bonser
#33. To: Starwind (#30)
Carnivore
-- George Bonser
#34. To: Neil McIver, christine, zipporah, robin (#31)
Do a search on Metzinger and see if other discussion forums come up, or if all hits are news-only sites.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#35. To: Neil McIver, Starwind, christine, Zipporah (#31)
Out of curiousity I googled "michelle metzinger 4um" and got one hit, which caused my computer to warn me not to proceed, it said the certificate was hinky and theft of personal information was likely. Without the Metzinger I got some Malkin hits, but nothing on Metzinger at all.
After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs
#36. To: Dakmar (#35)
Yeah.. did you mean this hit?
it said the certificate was hinky and theft of personal information was likely
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#37. To: All (#35)
When I read threads like these, I get this feeling I'm outside myself watching me read it, and knowing it's a done deal, completley over. I can't stand a society that promotes this. It's like I want to be anywhere but here, yet know it would be just the same. I'm waiting for the speakers in the sky to proclaim, ATTENTION PLANET EARTH! ATTENTION PLANET EARTH! WE HAVE ASSUMED CONTROL!
#38. To: Starwind (#36)
LOL! This is the hit I'm getting, but for pete's sake don't actually go there unless you know your system is secure https://koeln.ccc.de/~drt/hosts.gz
After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs
#39. To: Ragin1 (#37)
It's okay though if they address ALL PLANETS OF THE SOLAR FEDERATION, 'cause that means cave dwelling guitar freaks are in charge.
After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it. I sure as hell wouldn't want to live in a society where the only people allowed guns are the police and the military. - William S Burroughs
#40. To: Dakmar (#38)
I'm pretty well button'd up but I'm not inclined to test it. That could be a poorly disguised attempt to alter a hosts.etc file.
don't actually go there unless you know your system is secure
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#41. To: Dakmar (#39)
Doesn't anyone get this nagging feeling in the back of their skull that we are realy puny little specks manipulated for this big evil grinning steel device? Ok, I'm done with the paranoid insignificant thought process.
#42. To: Dakmar (#39)
Best break out the Slim Whitman CD's (where is JHoffa when we need him).
It's okay though if they address ALL PLANETS OF THE SOLAR FEDERATION, 'cause that means cave dwelling guitar freaks are in charge.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#43. To: All (#42)
LOL! That's the last time I'll lift a gif from an israeli website!
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#44. To: Starwind (#36)
giggling
Yeah.. did you mean this hit?
#45. To: Starwind, ruthie, Jethro Tull, BTP Holdings, Christine, Zipporah, Neil McIver, Itisa1mosttoolate, Mind_Virus, JRadcliffe, Tauzero, Ragin1, Dakmar, SKYDRIFTER, Diana, robin, wbales, Eoghan, bluegrass (#1)
Lookout, France! Google hires neo- con headbanger http://btpholdings.blogspot.com/2005/05/lookout-france-google- hires-neo-con.html
This could have something to do with it.
By Andrew Orlowski
24th May 2005
The Register, UK
The company that prides itself on "Doing No Evil" isn't taking any chances with its latest executive appointment. Dan Senor, the company's new Global Communications and Strategy VP, has a CV guaranteed to have Register columnist Otto Z Stern firing a celebratory fusillade skywards from his compound in New Mexico.
A former Senior Associate at the Carlyle Group, Senor was briefly Scott McLellan's deputy as White House spokesman before becoming head of the the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq's information department. The White House web site bills him as Senior Advisor to Presidential Envoy L. Paul Bremer III. Fox News hired Senor as a panelist in February. While in Iraq Senor showed his loyalty by going jogging in a Bush-Cheney '04 tracksuit.
Not everyone is impressed.
"I have come to associate his triangular, brush-cut head with an unceasing stream of bullshit. He's Ari Fleischer without the charm," writes one grump. "Hiring this guy is a repulsive move."
An impressive resume, for sure, but one perhaps more useful to a company building a military task force than a search engine. And it'll be fascinating to see the reaction of the French, with whom Google is locked into some extremely sensitive negotiations, to Senor's brand of special diplomacy.
Editor's comment: We find the following additional information on Dan Senor at Disinfopeia's Source Watch by the Center for Media and Democracy.The following elements of Senor's CV are not present in the version on the White House website:
There is only one reason for a thug like Senor to be inserted into Google as Global Communications and Strategy VP. And that reason is to hobble the internet as a source of information.
This is even more frightening considering Google's recent acquisition of Blogger and Picasa.
Blogs scare the living daylights out of the fascists at corporate and government offices alike. So we must be aware that attempts to muzzle bloggers are not limited to governments. There is virtually no way for them to control the flow of information presently.
And, it is giving fits to the likes of Dan Senor and the spinmeisters at communication central under the auspices of Karl Rove and Scott McClellan at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue where we have seen that so-called journalists are paid to shill for the policy wonks of governmental agencies.
It is not so strange, then, that this sort of shilling is making an appearance in the commercial realm at USWeb.com.
It is now time for Google to begin it's descent from the #1 position and for all good Americans and other Nationalists around the world to turn to alternate search engines.
Here are a few recommendations from friends.
1. DevilFinder, has a look and feel similar to Google.
2. AltaVista, good for MP3 and images.
3. GigaBlast, give it a try.
4. Yahoo, a good old standby for news, etc.
There are bound to be more and maybe even a new offering coming soon from rumblings I have heard among web junkies who have their ear to the rail.
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
#46. To: BTP Holdings (#45)
Dan Senor to 'Post': Iraq is on path to freedom Jerusalem Post; 7/2/2004; Jerusalem Post Staff Jerusalem Post 07-02-2004 Headline: Dan Senor to 'Post': Iraq is on path to freedom Byline: Jerusalem Post Staff Edition; Daily Section: Features Page: 24 Friday, July 2, 2004 -- Dan Senor, the spokesman for the US coalition in Iraq, is decidedly upbeat about the situation in that troubled country following the early handover of power on Monday and Saddam Hussein's first day in an Iraqi court on Thursday. "There's no question Iraq is on the path toward representative government, on the way towards a constitution, civilian control of the military, religious freedom, and freedom of speech," Senor told The Jerusalem Post on his return to Washington with his boss, the former administrator of the Coalition Provisional Authority, L. Paul Bremer. "No doubt, Iraqis, after the last 15 months, are better off than they were under 35 years of tyranny. Gone are gas attacks and torture, and despite the daily frustrations, the overwhelming majority are grateful, and embracing these new freedoms," Bremer said. Senor traveled to Baghdad in mid-April in one of the first civilian convoys to enter Iraq following the fall of Saddam's regime, and served as the coalition spokesman and communications adviser until Bremer's return to the US immediately after the near-secret handover ceremony. A graduate of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Senor completed his undergraduate studies at the University of Western Ontario and earned his MBA from Harvard Business School. -Snip
#47. To: Jethro Tull (#46)
Jerusalem Post; 7/2/2004; Jerusalem Post Staff Senor is a neocon through and through. He had better have his reservations at the kibbutz all lined up. Soon we will round up this batch of treasonous bastards.
Dan Senor to 'Post': Iraq is on path to freedom
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
#48. To: BTP Holdings (#47)
If he got hit in the ass tonight by an 18-wheeler doing 80 MPH, I'd go to sleep with a smile on my face :)
Soon we will round up this batch of treasonous bastards.
#49. To: Jethro Tull (#48)
That could be arranged. Road kill is a common sight. ROTFLOL!
If he got hit in the ass tonight by an 18-wheeler doing 80 MPH, I'd go to sleep with a smile on my face :)
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
#50. To: BTP Holdings (#45)
Thanks for the links. I havn't tried gigablast nor devilfinder.
#51. To: BTP Holdings, Neil McIver, christine, Zipporah, ruthie (#45)
I'm not given to conspiracy theories, but this stinks. I searched with everyone of BTP's suggested search engines, and they all pretty much return the same hits, none of which include the (Dallas) Police Deny Excessive Force In Bloody Arrest (black cop, white girl) thread where all the evidenciary disection was done, but they do include the other F4um thread Derby scuffle officer has internal affairs history. It appears to be a concerted effort to scrub this particular thread from visibility, as wacky as that sounds.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#52. To: Starwind (#51)
How bizarre.. sure doesnt make any sense now does it.. sure is suspicious..
It appears to be a concerted effort to scrub this particular thread from visibility, as wacky as that sounds.
#53. To: Starwind (#51)
Google is the basis of the ten major search engines. So this does not surprise me in the least. If the neocon controlled Google has scrubbed this thread from their cache and blocked it from their spiders then it is a foregone conclusion that this is no longer a conspiracy theory but a conspiracy fact. We've been accused of being wacky before and the bots continue to spin their yarns even though they are continually refuted. Only fools believe the crap they post and disseminate. But there are far too many who are asleep and knoweth not they have been fooled.
as wacky as that sounds.
The liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic State itself. That, in its essence, is Fascism -- ownership of government by an individual, by a group, or any controlling private power. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
#54. To: All (#53)
hihi i don't really know about this stuff and sort of thought its just because Michelle's case is getting to be "old" news. i think we have to wait for the outcome of the grand jury decision on whether she has to answer the charges in court and also the results of the police internal investigation too. my legal friend says these things take time and there's always a lot of dealing going on between the sides in matters such as this. what i sincerely hope is that we've helped Michelle and she will come out of this with her head held high :) love ruthie XXXXXX
#55. To: ruthie, Starwind (#54)
No it's not because it's old news.. this is more than odd.. and is a red flag IMO.
i don't really know about this stuff and sort of thought its just because Michelle's case is getting to be "old" news.
#56. To: ruthie (#54)
I would agree that could be a reason for no hits in the news papers and news websites such as news.google.com But that is not a valid reason for generic web pages to nolonger appear in a general search for information. This is the only hit from freedom4um that still appears in an All the Web search for SITE:www. freedom4um.com "Michelle Metzinger" OR "Ceaphus Gordon" 4um: Derby scuffle officer has internal affairs history The only plausible, "accidental" reason I can think of, is the added presence of the links to helpmichelle.org may have triggered something in the ranking algorithms that make them think we're trying to manipulate the ranking of helpmichelle.org, so I could understand why helpmichelle.org might appear lower in rank, but it doesn't, and I could understand why the thread "(Dallas) Police Deny Excessive Force In Bloody Arrest (black cop, white girl)" might be lower in rank (it used to be rather high) and still be found, but it doesn't. BTW, have you any news of michelle's benefit event from last night? If so, could you please post it to a new thread?
thought its just because Michelle's case is getting to be "old" news
31 - 37 of 65 Results for SITE:www.freedom4um.com "Michelle Metzinger" OR
So obviously some threads are found and still listed, but not the one particular thread where we disected the evidence, and *none* by Google.
more hits from: http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=18092 - 35 KB
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
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