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Title: Thailand cave rescue: Why can't they drill from above, other questions you want answered
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news ... -situation-happened/764227002/
Published: Jul 7, 2018
Author: Mike James,
Post Date: 2018-07-07 09:06:01 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 1013
Comments: 46

Time is running out for the 12 boys and their soccer coach trapped in a cave. Rescuers are poised to help, but a safe exit is more precarious than it may seem.

The 12 boys and their coach who are trapped in an underground cave in Thailand have riveted attention on efforts to rescue them. Authorities describe the situation as a race against time to avoid death.

As cave experts from around the world converge on Tham Luang Nang Non cave, the inevitable monsoon rains of northern Thailand have made the rescue efforts increasingly grim. A former Thai navy seal diver died during the rescue effort Thursday after running out of oxygen while attempting to deliver air tanks.

USA TODAY, through interviews and research, compiled this list of questions and answers to address why the mission is so difficult: If rescuers know where the boys are, can't a drill be used to open a hole from above and hoist the boys out?

The spot where the boys and their coach are is about a half-mile down, through mostly solid rock. The mountain terrain above the cave is heavy jungle, with few access roads.

Forrest Wilson, the chief diving officer for the National Cave Rescue Commission and who has 50 years of cave diving experience, including several rescues, said drilling into the cave from above is not impossible. But the maps of the cave are not accurate enough to get a good fix on exactly where to drill.

"It will take a long time to drill through a half a kilometer of cave," Wilson said. "I don't think there's time."

Isn't there a way, using modern technology, that rescuers could get a more accurate fix from above on where the boys are?

Yes, there is. It's called a radio cave locator and it's basically a beacon that transmits a radio wave from within the cave and lets people on the outside know precisely where the beacon – and the trapped people – are located.

It's unclear if authorities in Thailand are using such a beacon — or if it is making any difference to the rescue effort. Since drilling through such heavy rock would take weeks, having a precise location is probably a moot point. That's a big cave. Why are rescuers so worried about oxygen?

Ventilation from the surface is poor. There's simply not enough air going into the cave space to sustain 12 boys and an adult for a long period of time. Rescue workers are trying to run an oxygen line from the mouth of the cave to the chamber where the trapped people are, but that's about three miles.

The oxygen level in the cave is estimated to be about 15 percent and decreasing (normal oxygen level is about 21 percent.) A low oxygen level means simple tasks like thinking and basic physical exertion become gradually more exhausting. Can't the water from the cave simply be pumped out?

Not all of it. Heavy industrial pumps are pumping water out of the cave around the clock, and authorities on Friday estimated they have pumped out more than 35 million gallons in the past week. But seeing as how a cave is a huge water repository, the millions of gallons being pumped out amounts to proverbial drops in a bucket.

In about four months, Thailand's dry season would naturally deplete the water in the cave. But rescue workers don't believe that the boys can hold on that long, considering oxygen levels and other concerns. So, what is the best chance to get the trapped people out?

Find a back entrance to the cave. "A cave as large as the one they're in is bound to have a back entrance," Wilson said. "There would be no problem if they found one. They could put harnesses on the kids and pull them out."

But finding that back cave entrance in such heavy jungle is extremely difficult. The entrance would likely be a simple hole in the ground, commonly called a "chimney" that would hopefully go straight down to a cavern near where the boys are. But the entrance hole for such a chimney would be hard to spot because of the forest. "There are people walking all over that jungle right now trying to find it," Wilson said. Can't the boys just swim out with the help of expert divers?

Sure, but it is very risky. The boys and their coach have been trapped for nearly two weeks and they are getting weaker. Most do not know how to swim. Authorities, however, are increasingly thinking that this may be the best course at this point, since heavy rain is expected Sunday. Thailand's Navy Seal commander said Friday that such an operation would be a daring and risky operation, but that it may be the only chance.

"That would be a heck of a job," Wilson said. "The kids are not in good shape to be swimming out. It's a five-hour swim job. It's scary." How often do people get trapped like this in caves in the U.S. and other countries? Is this rescue more difficult than others?

The Thai rescue operation is probably more treacherous than others because of the sheer size of the cave, the oncoming monsoon season, and the isolated area. Wilson said that in his many years as a diver, "I've never done one as extensive" as the Thai attempted rescue.

More: 'They cannot dive at this time': Soccer team not ready to make escape from Thailand cave

More: An illustrated look at the Thai cave rescue

In the late 1970s, Wilson and others rescued a group of college students in Kentucky under somewhat similar circumstances. The students went into a dry cave that, after a heavy rain, became filled with enough water to block their way out. Eventually, all of the students were rescued after divers kept them well stocked with blankets and food

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#1. To: Ada (#0)

How'd they get trapped in?? Sounds awful.

_____________________________________________________________

USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2018-07-07   9:10:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: NeoconsNailed (#1)

How'd they get trapped in?? Sounds awful.

As I understand it, was sort of a rite of passage to explore the cave and they got caught by a monsoon. And, yes, it is awful. The professional divers can barely make it through the flooded parts where the current is almost as bad as the Colorado River and one diver has died when his oxygen ran out No way these poor boys could make it that way.

Ada  posted on  2018-07-07   9:17:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Ada (#2)

How could anybody have done this to them. Sounds like a very unwise custom even if its 5000 years old.

_____________________________________________________________

USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2018-07-07   9:18:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: NeoconsNailed (#3)

Sounds like a very unwise custom even if its 5000 years old.

You roll the dice and you take your chances. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2018-07-07   9:29:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Ada (#2)

I don't see how them staying in the cave for 4 months is an option, unless they get an air line from outside continuously pumping fresh air to them.

Seems they could make a contraption to put them in a bag of sorts, with a scuba tank, then tie the bag to a line that is pulled from one chamber to the next. That would eliminate the fatigue and water current issue.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   9:29:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Ada (#2)

The professional divers can barely make it through the flooded parts where the current is almost as bad as the Colorado River and one diver has died when his oxygen ran out No way these poor boys could make it that way.

What is to prevent these professional divers from dragging along 3 or 4 sets of dive tanks with each trip they make there?

They could also each drag a section of nylon line with them with each trip,and on "escape day" tie one end themselves,and shorter lines from the kids to themselves,and then be pulled out mechanically? Neither the boys nor the divers would even have to swim,just breath and stay alert.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-07-07   9:33:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Pinguinite (#5)

Seems they could make a contraption to put them in a bag of sorts, with a scuba tank, then tie the bag to a line that is pulled from one chamber to the next. That would eliminate the fatigue and water current issue.

Bingo!

The divers could even carry an oxygen hose hooked to pumps in with them to bring oxygen into the cave.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-07-07   9:34:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Pinguinite (#5)

4 months

They would need fresh water and food also. Otherwise being in the cave for that period is suicidal. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2018-07-07   9:34:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Pinguinite (#5)

Understand some passages are very narow and perhaps would not permit a bag to squeeze through without ripping.

Ada  posted on  2018-07-07   9:38:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: sneakypete (#6)

What is to prevent these professional divers from dragging along 3 or 4 sets of dive tanks with each trip they make there?

They are pretty heavy, and lugging them through the dry sections of cave that may not exactly have a flat cement floor difficult. And the more they exert themselves, the more oxygen they use up.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   9:40:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: sneakypete (#6)

I'm sure they can get the dive tanks in (BTW the rescuers are using up the air in the cave), but getting the boys out is still problematical. The divers themselves have found the trip very difficult and except that lives were at stake would have turned back.

Lines could get caught on the rocks and the boys would have no way of freeing themselves.

Ada  posted on  2018-07-07   9:44:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: sneakypete (#6)

They could also each drag a section of nylon line with them with each trip,and on "escape day" tie one end themselves,and shorter lines from the kids to themselves,and then be pulled out mechanically? Neither the boys nor the divers would even have to swim,just breath and stay alert.

Being naturally formed, caves are not smooth tunnels of uniform dimension going in straight lines all the time. They get wide & narrow, they go down, up left right, make U turns at points, and sometimes do all at the same time. It can be a tricky operation, even with what I suggested.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   9:46:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: BTP Holdings (#8)

They would need fresh water and food also. Otherwise being in the cave for that period is suicidal. ;)

I read somewhere it's already been stocked. Air is what they need, along with water filtration capacity.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   9:47:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Ada (#9)

Understand some passages are very narow and perhaps would not permit a bag to squeeze through without ripping.

The bag wouldn't be airtight. That wouldn't work as it would then float making it harder to pull through the tunnel. It would just be a means of keeping control of the passenger. It would be a heavy material though that would tolerate a bit of scraping. But if it rips, not a big deal.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   9:52:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Ada (#11)

Lines could get caught on the rocks and the boys would have no way of freeing themselves.

True, but there's no risk free option. Leaving them their for 4 months or make a run for it could each (or both) prove to be the wrong choice. At least for some of them.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   9:56:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Pinguinite (#14) (Edited)

You are thinking something like a small surfboard to which a boy is strapped and winched through? Might work as a last resort. KIM that they boys are very weak.

Ada  posted on  2018-07-07   9:56:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Pinguinite (#15)

If the rescuers knew where to drill a shaft and could get the equipment in there, that would be the safest. But they don't know exactly where to drill and getting the equipment into place would be extremely difficult.

Ada  posted on  2018-07-07   10:00:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: BTP Holdings (#4)

Sounds like another exercise in macho gone off the rails.

_____________________________________________________________

USA! USA! USA! Bringing you democracy, or else! there were strains of VD that were incurable, and they were first found in the Philippines and then transmitted to the Korean working girls via US military. The 'incurables' we were told were first taken back to a military hospital in the Philippines to quietly die. – 4um

NeoconsNailed  posted on  2018-07-07   10:01:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Pinguinite (#10)

They are pretty heavy, and lugging them through the dry sections of cave that may not exactly have a flat cement floor difficult. And the more they exert themselves, the more oxygen they use up.

True,but this isn't a contest and there is nothing preventing these men in VERY good physical conditioning from resting along the way.

And.....,consider the alternative to NOT making this effort.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-07-07   10:43:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Pinguinite (#12)

Being naturally formed, caves are not smooth tunnels of uniform dimension going in straight lines all the time. They get wide & narrow, they go down, up left right, make U turns at points, and sometimes do all at the same time. It can be a tricky operation, even with what I suggested.

All true,but nylon lines are pretty slick,and there is nothing to keep one diver from pulling the line and another diver coming along behind him to untangle any jams.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-07-07   10:45:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Ada (#16)

You are thinking something like a small surfboard to which a boy is strapped and winched through?

No. That's too rigid and may not be able to be pulled through narrow twists in tunnels. The kids would get scraped up something fierce. What I envisioned, actually, was a simple tarp the boys could be rolled up into with a scuba tank perhaps over there heads or under their feet. Give them a helmet as well. Each end of the tarp is then tied to a line. The leading end then is fed to the destination point while the trailing end from the source point. Two divers, one on each end of the thing then assist to bring them through each submerged section of the tunnel. Currents are resisted by whichever side has the upstream line.

That way there's nothing much for the kids to do but not panic, keep the regulator in their months and stay flexible.

Might work as a last resort. KIM that they boys are very weak.

With my suggestion, they may not need much strength.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   11:12:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: sneakypete (#19)

True,but this isn't a contest and there is nothing preventing these men in VERY good physical conditioning from resting along the way.

And.....,consider the alternative to NOT making this effort.

The men say the trip is extremely difficult and would not attempt it except for the boys. And one of them died when his oxygen ran out.

Two alternatives to not making the trip depend on luck: The luckiest would be in finding a back door into the system. The second is a rescue by drilling into the cave from above but that would take a while even if they got the coordinates right and the equipment in place.

Third alternative is waiting the 4 months which is possible if they had sufficient air, food and water.

Fourth alternative would be to get some really powerful pumps down there to drain the flooded passages.

Ada  posted on  2018-07-07   12:43:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Pinguinite (#21)

Two divers, one on each end of the thing then assist to bring them through each submerged section of the tunnel. Currents are resisted by whichever side has the upstream line.

The divers might not be able to handle themselves and a kid.

Ada  posted on  2018-07-07   12:45:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Ada (#23)

The divers might not be able to handle themselves and a kid.

There's no risk free rescue in this case, but the divers aren't dealing with a kid. They're just dealing with a long flexible tube. The people on either end are the ones doing the pulling. All the divers need to do is ensure their long flexible tube doesn't get snagged on anything.

But we'll see what they come up with. If they use my solution, I win a prize.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   13:17:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Pinguinite, sneakypete, neoconsnailed, btp holdings (#24)

more details

Ada  posted on  2018-07-07   14:00:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Ada (#25)

Thanks. They say the water is also cold enough to require wet suits. I had assumed the tropical climate would mean reasonably warm water, but perhaps the water cools to the standard 55-60 degree ground temp found at any latitude.

The temperature alone would be a hazard, especially for a pre-teen with less body mass to generate replacement heat lost to the water. It alone could prove fatal if some segments required extended time in water that temperature. They need wet suits.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   16:11:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Pinguinite (#26)

I get the impression that a dive rescue should only be attempted if the alternative is certain death.

Noted that bird watchers have been recruited. Birds apparently can find chimneys which might lead to an above ground rescue.

Ada  posted on  2018-07-07   17:12:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Ada (#27)

I get the impression that a dive rescue should only be attempted if the alternative is certain death.

If it were my decision, I would push for making a dive rescue over leaving them in the cave for 4 months through monsoon season. Water level rise and uncertain oxygen levels over that time, and the hazards of psychological factors causing issues being reasons.

Noted that bird watchers have been recruited. Birds apparently can find chimneys which might lead to an above ground rescue.

A good idea. Bats would be the thing to look for, I would think. If oxygen wasn't an issue in the cave and sufficient air could piped in then doing a smoke grenade or similar and looking for traces of it from a helicopter might do the trick.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   18:36:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Pinguinite (#28)

While the pumps are working, they apparently cannot remove enough water to let the boys walk out. Would more, or more powerful pumps, do the trick?

And would bringing in an air hose ameliorate the oxygen problem?

Ada  posted on  2018-07-07   19:42:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Ada (#29)

And would bringing in an air hose ameliorate the oxygen problem?

It would if they could snake it thru the winding cracks in rocks to get to them. An air compresser would work. Like they use to run air hammers.;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2018-07-07   19:45:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Pinguinite (#21)

With my suggestion, they may not need much strength.

I like it.

I was thinking along similar lines.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-07-07   20:16:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Ada (#22)

Third alternative is waiting the 4 months which is possible if they had sufficient air, food and water.

Do you think ANY of those kids would ever get within shouting distance of sane after spending 4 months trapped in a dark cave,waiting to drown?

IMNSHO,making them wait is a form of torture. Better to die trying to get out while you still have a trace of sanity.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-07-07   20:18:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Ada (#29)

While the pumps are working, they apparently cannot remove enough water to let the boys walk out. Would more, or more powerful pumps, do the trick?

From what I've heard, the rate at which they are pumping out water has made only a minuscule difference in the water levels in the cave. And this is before the monsoon rains actually begin, which really says it all. ALso the remoteness of the area likely means extra/bigger generators to drive the pumps.

And would bringing in an air hose ameliorate the oxygen problem?

Absolutely and I understand they are working quickly to do exactly that. But it's some 3 miles of hose. That's a lot of air resistance the air pumps have to push through to get air coming out the other side, and on top of that, any place the hose is submerged the water pressure on the hose could cause it to constrict somewhat, depending on the hose. Like with the water pumps, the air pumps will likely need to run off generators unless they can run grid power lines to the cave entrance (Assuming the entrance is not near any power lines).

On the other hand, only a relatively low rate of air flow would be needed for all who are there.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   20:19:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Pinguinite (#33)

The air pumps are like what they use on highways to pump compressed air and they run off diesel engines. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2018-07-07   20:22:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: BTP Holdings (#34)

The air pumps are like what they use on highways to pump compressed air and they run off diesel engines. ;)

SIMILAR,but NOT the same. Use one of those air compressors and the air will kill you.

Takes special pumps for breathable oxygen.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-07-07   20:26:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: sneakypete, BTP Holdings (#35) (Edited)

SIMILAR,but NOT the same. Use one of those air compressors and the air will kill you.

Takes special pumps for breathable oxygen.

You just have to be careful that the exhaust from the generators doesn't get mixed into the air being pumped into the cave. It's relatively easy to do but obviously dangerous if the simple & proper precautions aren't taken.

If there are additional considerations required with the industrial air pumps, I don't know what they are.

Pinguinite  posted on  2018-07-07   20:42:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: sneakypete (#35)

Takes special pumps for breathable oxygen.

Yes I believe that is correct. And they will need to start with a bigger hose (5" or 6" and then narrowed down) since 3 miles is a long way for 2 inch line to run.

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2018-07-07   20:49:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Pinguinite (#33)

update

Seems the rains have held off. Perhaps the Buddhist monks holding prayer vigil outside the cave were effective.

Ada  posted on  2018-07-08   8:05:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Pinguinite, sneakypete, neoconsnailed, btp holdings (#32)

According to BBC, two boys have been brought out safely

Ada  posted on  2018-07-08   8:43:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Ada (#39) (Edited)

According to BBC, two boys have been brought out safely

Last I heard maybe 2 or 3 hours ago is that 4 boys are out of the cave.

This should even help improve the oxygen levels in there for the remaining boys as they are waiting to be taken out.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ In the entire history of the world,the only nations that had to build walls to keep their own citizens from leaving were those with leftist governments.

sneakypete  posted on  2018-07-08   13:41:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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