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Title: Trump Should Have Already Left NATO
Source: [None]
URL Source: https://nationalinterest.org/featur ... d-have-already-left-nato-52997
Published: Apr 22, 2019
Author: Ted Galen Carpenter
Post Date: 2019-04-22 07:06:31 by Ada
Keywords: None
Views: 582
Comments: 24

NATO was an institution to deal with the Cold War; it is obsolete for the conditions of the twenty-first century, and it has become a dangerous albatross around the neck of the American republic.

IT WOULD seem self-evident that wise leaders should always seek to maintain the maximum degree of flexibility and choice in foreign policy. Commitments and strategies that may make sense under one set of conditions can become obsolete and even counterproductive when circumstances change. Therefore, it is imprudent and potentially dangerous to lock one’s country into a set of rigid, long-term obligations.

Unfortunately, NATO is the premier example of a willingness—indeed eagerness—to violate that important principle. NATO was an institution to deal with the Cold War; it is not only obsolete for the conditions of the twenty-first century, it has become a dangerous albatross around the neck of the American republic. U.S. leaders continue going out of their way to limit America’s policy options in order to “reassure” a growing roster of European security dependents that the United States remains willing to incur any risk and pay any price to protect them, no matter how trivial and vulnerable they might be. That policy badly needs to change.

Rigid and/or obsolete commitments have caused problems for great powers throughout history. Perhaps the most tragic example occurred during the years leading up to World War I. Europe’s major countries had divided themselves into rival security blocs, the Triple Entente and the Triple Alliance. When tensions soared in 1914 following the assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, the heir to the Austro-Hungarian throne, those alliances transformed an emotional, but limited, dispute between Austria and tiny Serbia into a continental crisis. Today’s NATO is the potential incubator of a similar catastrophe. 10 seconds Do You Know What Happened Today In History?

The fear of being locked into unjustified and potentially dangerous security commitments was a key reason why America’s founders were so averse to “entangling alliances.” In his Farewell Address, George Washington made an important distinction between permanent and temporary alliances. He asserted that the United States should “steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world.” Such obligations would tie the republic to partners for unforeseen contingencies far into the future. Conversely, Washington acknowledged that “we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extra-ordinary emergencies.” It was an astute distinction that in no way reflected the simplistic notion of “isolationism.” Instead, his strategy embodied the principle of selectivity, and it expressed a shrewd note of caution that is even more relevant today than it was in Washington’s time. NATO has become the ultimate permanent alliance, with all the defects and perils of such an arrangement.

Later influential American political figures echoed Washington’s admonition to preserve the maximum degree of choice and flexibility in U.S. foreign policy. Both in his Senate speeches opposing ratification of the North Atlantic Treaty, and in his subsequent book, A Foreign Policy for Americans, Senator Robert A. Taft stressed those points. He dubbed his approach the policy of “the free hand.” That standard also should be the core principle of U.S. policy toward Europe in the twenty-first century. ADVERTISING inRead invented by Teads Report Advertisement

A MORE limited, flexible approach would not imply U.S. indifference to geostrategic developments in Europe. It certainly would not be based on the silly notions that knee-jerk advocates of the policy status quo habitually trot out—the canard that a more selective strategy amounts to “isolationism,” or “turning our backs on the world,” or renouncing all aspects of “U.S. leadership.” It is long past time to move the NATO policy debate beyond such overwrought, mind-numbing clichés and discuss meaningful policy choices.

Unfortunately, pro-NATO types cling ever more tenaciously to an outdated status quo. Indeed, many of them express a sneering resentment toward the mere suggestion that NATO has outlived its usefulness or that Americans should consider alternative policies. There is a worrisome degree of groupthink and a herd mentality in favor of the alliance within both the U.S. foreign policy community and most of the media. Such a phenomenon is unhealthy with respect to any policy debate, but it is especially so regarding the future of U.S. security policy toward Europe. Continuing the blunders that have marked Washington’s European policies since the demise of the Soviet Union is not only wasteful but increasingly dangerous. Rote invocations of the alleged need for an endless U.S. commitment to NATO do not change that reality. ADVERTISING inRead invented by Teads Report Advertisement

It is imperative to overcome the stifling influence of stale thinking and vested interests regarding NATO. Article V is a de facto automatic commitment to go to war if an ally (however minor or strategically irrelevant) becomes embroiled in an armed conflict, and such an obligation is more imprudent than ever before. The costs and risks of Washington’s security obligations to its European allies now substantially outweigh any existing or potential benefits. When a great power reaches that point with regard to any policy, the need for drastic change becomes urgent. America’s NATO commitment has arrived at that point. U.S. leaders must craft a more nuanced and selective security relationship between the United States and Europe.

A fresh strategy would embody several important principles, and adopting those principles may well determine whether the United States enjoys a prolonged era of peace or finds itself repeatedly drawn into petty conflicts that have little or no relevance to the fundamental interests of the American republic. Even more important, embracing the correct principles may determine whether the United States can avoid a cataclysmic military collision with a nuclear-armed Russia.

Constantly invoking the history of NATO solidarity as a reason to preserve the alliance (as NATO’s defenders do) epitomizes a foreign policy based on nostalgia. Regardless of the relevance NATO may have had during the long Cold War with the Soviet Union, we need a new strategy for a very different era and a very different Europe. Nostalgia is an extremely poor foundation for an intelligent foreign policy.

AN APPROPRIATE new security strategy would recognize that although the United States has some important interests in Europe, not everything that occurs on the continent is essential to America’s well-being. There is a vast difference between preventing a hostile would-be global hegemon, such as the Soviet Union, from gaining control of Europe versus trying to resolve every incident of political upheaval or every dispute among two or more European nations. Most incidents, however disagreeable or disorderly, do not pose a potential existential (or even meaningful) threat to the United States.

The turmoil that accompanied the break-up of Yugoslavia in the 1990s is a prime example of a development that warranted no more than a minimal, purely diplomatic, U.S. effort. It certainly did not require America’s military involvement, much less the assumption of the leadership role to micromanage the distribution of political power within the former Yugoslavia’s successor states.

A well-conceived strategy would have avoided such pitfalls. It would have realized that sorting out post-communist political arrangements in the Balkans did not constitute a systemic crisis that could create chaos throughout Europe and impinge on crucial American interests. The nature, severity or scale of the turbulence (much less all three factors) never came close to reaching the point that the United States needed to intervene. Such events were modest, sub-regional changes that the major European powers, either through the European Union (EU) or on an ad-hoc basis, could have—and should have—managed on their own. U.S. involvement, especially military involvement, should be reserved for negative developments that pose a serious problem for the entire transatlantic region, not merely constitute a parochial conflict, however unfortunate, in a strategic backwater like the Balkans.

Conversely, if a great power and would-be European hegemon like Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union arose and began to pursue an extensive expansionist agenda, such a development would clearly be a matter of grave concern for the United States. Few Americans would be willing to tolerate the emergence of a hostile power capable of dominating Europe and being intent on that goal. If a European security entity could not contain the rise of such a hostile power, the United States might have to intervene. But in the world of the twenty-first century, that is an exceedingly remote scenario. NATO partisans are inclined to hype much more limited problems (such as Russia’s actions in its immediate neighborhood) in an effort to preserve their cherished institution and their own prominence. But Americans should not allow such exaggerated fears to be a pretext for preserving an obsolete policy that perpetuates Washington’s micromanagement of Europe’s security affairs.

ANOTHER BADLY needed feature of a new transatlantic policy is U.S. willingness to treat the European Union (or even an alliance restricted to the handful of major European powers) as a credible security actor, not a perpetual U.S. dependent or obedient junior partner. European military capabilities are far from trivial, even though they can and probably should be enhanced. Most security disruptions that have arisen on Europe’s perimeter, including the mundane territorial disputes between Russia and such neighbors as Georgia and Ukraine, are not major threats that bring important American interests into play.

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#1. To: Ada, 4 (#0) (Edited)

The turmoil that accompanied the break-up of Yugoslavia in the 1990s is a prime example of a development that warranted no more than a minimal, purely diplomatic, U.S. effort. It certainly did not require America’s military involvement, much less the assumption of the leadership role to micromanage the distribution of political power within the former Yugoslavia’s successor states.

A well-conceived strategy would have avoided such pitfalls. It would have realized that sorting out post-communist political arrangements in the Balkans did not constitute a systemic crisis that could create chaos throughout Europe and impinge on crucial American interests.


NATO || Military operations

No military operations were conducted by NATO during the Cold War


Paradoxically, the first wartime action by NATO was against Europeans -- of Yugoslavia; not hostile foreign powers of the world threatening Europe.


Some annotated excerpts from insightful discussions at the Comment-sections of YouTube Ref. #1 and YouTube Ref. #2.

"Yugoslavia was a [1918 Post-WWI] utopian project. The people never wanted, or were asked if they want this country."

"Yugoslavia was destroyed first by the IMF. then the jackals moved in to prepare for NATOS destruction, and disassembly by NATO."

"Serbs [were] the only one who fought to save Yugoslavia from col[l]apsing."


"kosova was always Serbia"

"Kosovo where Albanians proclaimed to be their own country inside a country that isn't their[s] to begin with." ... "there [was] always an option to leave and go back to their own country [of] Albania, which they didn't because life there was even worse." ... "back [i]n the 70's Albanian extremists have made [the] same kind of problems in the past, something both Albanians and Croatian ustashe have in common."

"Kosovo was about one thing - The Trepca Mine. It was generating $billions. The bankers couldn't resist."

"Thank you so much Sir for writing about this and for bringing the truth to the world ... you are writing exactly what is important for them and that is the Trepcha mine. We basically get nothing out of our land and everything there is either our Church land or all public buildings (100 % Serbian ownership according to state books which was buil[t] by our parents tax money). Our history and churches, monasteries from 12th century are there and so much that is important for our culture. We [Serbians] are also still paying all loans from the time of Yugoslavia for Kosovo and according to FM Ivica Dacic if we would stop paying for it, it would mean we recognise Kosovo as independent state and they would automatically step into contracts. Not a cent of war reparations is paid to Serbs for any war, ever and our sick people also didn't get anything from international courts like Italian UN Soldiers for depleted uranium, plutonium or polonium. Not even some recognition that there is danger for health."

"Serbs occupied 30% of croatian teritory ... croatia even today have the biggest density of mines per km"

"Occup[i]ed??? Serbs [were] there for a 1000 years"


"As a Dutchman who served in the Royal Dutch Field Artillery I deeply respect the Serbians and the Greeks who stood up against nazi Germany even though they knew they would lose the battle."

"as a child [Madeline] Albright [U.S. Sec of State, Clinton admin] was saved by Serbs from Nazis (act punishable by death if Nazis catch you). She returned the favor by bombing Serbia"

"pilots were dropping their bombs on civilian population of Yugoslavia during the time of the Orthodox Easter"

"the Balkan wars had nothing to do with Nationalism or Religion. ... It all has to do with geopolitics or more precisely nato expansion [agendists, for] nwo implementation and most importantly [Globalist] empire building."


Trepca Mines - Wikipedia

The enterprise known as Trepca was a conglomerate of 40 mines and factories, located mostly in Kosovo but also in locations in Montenegro. ... with the closure of several mines and factories in the late 1980s and 1990s, the Trepca mining complex in Kosovo now comprises only seven lead and zinc mines, three concentrators, one smelter, and one zinc plant. ... This is all that remains of the huge complex that during the 1980s employed 20,000 workers, and accounted for 70% of all Yugoslavia’s mineral wealth.[6] The mines still have a reserve of 60.5 million tonnes of ore grading 4.96% lead, 3.3% zinc and 74.4 gr/tonne silver, which translates as three million tonnes of lead, two million tonnes of zinc and 4,500 tonnes of silver.[7]

Exploitation of the ore began in 1930 ... In 1985, Trepca was Europe's 1st and world's 5th largest raw lead smelting facility and one of the largest for processing zinc. Production capacity included: 3.5 million tons of ore, 165,000 tons of raw lead, 110,000 tons of refined lead, 40,000 tons of electrolytic zinc, 100 tons of fine silver, 100 tons of refined bismuth, 72 tons of cadmium, 200 kg of gold, 20,000 tons of lead batteries, 280,000 tons of sulfuric acid, 100,000 tons of sulfur-phosphate and 150,000 tons of composite fertilizers. ... This complex progressively collapsed during the last fifteen years,

The arrival of KFOR [Kosovo Force - a NATO-led international peacekeeping force] in June 1999 led to an outburst of the mining complex. The northern mines remained owned and operated by Serbs, while the southern mines were in Albanian hands. After the Serbian forces withdrew from Kosovo in 1999, the chaos ensued in the period during the takeover by KFOR [military] and UNMIK [the United Nations Mission in Kosovo - civilian Interim Administration] ... The units of UÇK [aka the KLA/Kosovo Liberation Army - Albanian paramilitary organization] looted and destroyed lots of mine's properties while international forces did nothing to stop it.

On 18 September 1999, the mineralogical museum of the mine, where guarded treasures had been accumulated since 1966, was plundered by thieves benefiting from the confusion. It was reported that the most invaluable vivianite specimen of the museum, more than 1,500 of the crystals collected inside the mine since 1927, and 150 specimens which had been given by 30 countries from all over the world had disappeared.[7]

UNMIK was authorized to take over all the state owned companies. However, Trepca wasn't organized as a plain, state-owned property, but [had been] transformed into the joint-stock company in 1996. UNMIK chief Bernard Kouchner personally asked for the documentation on the ownership of Trepca, but he wasn't authorized to take over the stock company, which French newspaper Le Monde wrote about at the time.

The mine effectively went out of production as a result of the 1999 civil war and has been rumored to be part of the reason for the conflict in the first place.[27][26] ... Kouchner ordered the shut down of Trepca.[25] ... As of 2017, the only remaining operational part of the complex are the Kopaonik [Serbian mountain] mines and the flotation in Leposavi [aka Albanik, a town in Kosovo]. [15]

Kosovo is the subject of a territorial dispute between the Republic of Kosovo and the Republic of Serbia. The Republic of Kosovo unilaterally declared independence on 17 February 2008, but Serbia continues to claim it as part of its own sovereign territory. ... Kosovo has been recognized as an independent state by 112 out of 193 United Nations member states. 10 states have recognized Kosovo only to later withdraw their recognition.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-04-22   19:11:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: GreyLmist (#1)

On 18 September 1999, the mineralogical museum of the mine, where guarded treasures had been accumulated since 1966, was plundered by thieves benefiting from the confusion. It was reported that the most invaluable vivianite specimen of the museum, more than 1,500 of the crystals collected inside the mine since 1927, and 150 specimens which had been given by 30 countries from all over the world had disappeared.[7]

It is sad to hear this. I was a mineral collector when I lived in Chicago. I sold my collection before I moved to Missouri. I heard the gentleman I sold the collection to "did very well" and I am happy for him. He had the means to sell the specimens. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2019-04-22   20:11:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: BTP Holdings (#2) (Edited)

On 18 September 1999, the mineralogical museum of the mine, where guarded treasures had been accumulated since 1966, was plundered by thieves benefiting from the confusion. It was reported that the most invaluable vivianite specimen of the museum, more than 1,500 of the crystals collected inside the mine since 1927, and 150 specimens which had been given by 30 countries from all over the world had disappeared.[7]

It is sad to hear this. I was a mineral collector when I lived in Chicago. I sold my collection before I moved to Missouri. I heard the gentleman I sold the collection to "did very well" and I am happy for him. He had the means to sell the specimens. ;)


I seemed to recall you speaking about your mineral collection before, so looked up a 4um topic from several years ago about President Herbert Hoover; which I thought might be of some interest to you because he was in the mining industry and also translated a very rare book about those geological subjects, from Latin to English. Am posting this Wikipedia info here as background for what he's talking about during an interview regarding those periods of his endeavors:


Herbert Hoover | Mining engineer - Wikipedia

In his spare time, Hoover wrote. His lectures at Columbia and Stanford universities were published in 1909 as Principles of Mining, which became a standard textbook. ... Hoover became deeply interested in the history of science, and he was especially drawn to the De re metallica, an influential 16th century work on mining and metallurgy. In 1912, Hoover and his wife published the first English translation of De re metallica.


De re metallica | Publication history - Wikipedia

De re metallica (Latin for On the Nature of Metals [Minerals]) is a book cataloguing the state of the art of mining, refining, and smelting metals, published a year posthumously in 1556 due to a delay in preparing woodcuts for the text. The author was Georg Bauer, whose pen name was the Latinized Georgius Agricola. The book remained the authoritative text on mining for 180 years after its publication. It was also an important chemistry text for the period and is significant in the history of chemistry.

Prof. Philippus Bechius (1521–1560), a friend of Agricola, translated De re metallica libri XII into German. It was published with the German title Vom Bergkwerck XII Bücher in 1557. The Hoovers describe it as "a wretched work, by one who knew nothing of the science," but it, like the Latin original, saw further editions.

Although Agricola died in 1555, the publication was delayed until the completion of the extensive and detailed woodcuts one year after his death.

In 1912, the first English translation of De Re Metallica was privately published in London by subscription. The translators were Herbert Hoover, a mining engineer (and later President of the United States), and his wife, Lou Henry Hoover, a geologist and Latinist. The translation is notable not only for its clarity of language, but for the extensive footnotes, which detail the classical references to mining and metals, such as the Naturalis Historia of Pliny the Elder, the history of mining law in England, France, and the German states; safety in mines, including historical safety; and known minerals at the time that Agricola wrote De Re Metallica. This translation has been reprinted by Dover Books.

Subsequent translations into other languages, including German, owe much to the Hoover translations, as their footnotes detail their difficulties with Agricola's invention of several hundred Latin expressions to cover Medieval German mining and milling terms unknown to classical Latin.


This link is for the 1-hour C-SPAN video of his interview (which is sourced at the 4um topic: A Conversation with Herbert Hoover). It's set to start here at 27:40 for the relevant 2.5 minute segment.

This link is for a 1-hour YouTube version of that interview, set to start here at 27:28 for the 2.5 minute segment to 30:05.

This transcription of that short segment is mostly from C-SPAN (in uppercase format) with some edits by me (in regular format):


C-SPAN.org

JANUARY 31, 1960

A Conversation with Herbert Hoover is a 1960 film in which Ray Henle interviews the 31st President of the United States. Among other topics, President Hoover talked about the Hoover Library on War and presented items from the collection.


SERIES

American History TV
Reel America


PEOPLE IN THIS VIDEO

Ray Henle
Commentator
NBC News

Herbert Hoover
U.S. President (Former)
[R] United States


Mr. Henle: THIS BOOK HERE, MR. HOOVER, LOOKS FAMILIAR. I THINK I RECOGNIZE IT AS BEING COMMONLY CALLED [The Agricola. ; aka De re metallica ; Could you tell us about it, please, sir?]

Fmr. Pres. Hoover: THIS BOOK WAS FIRST PUBLISHED JUST 400 YEARS AGO. IT IS IN LATIN, IT WAS IN LATIN, AND COMPREHENDED THE WHOLE GAMUT OF THE MINING AND METALLURGICAL AND CHEMICAL INDUSTRIES OF THEIR TIME. THERE WERE [great] DIFFICULTIES IN THE TRANSLATION FROM THE LATIN BECAUSE THE TECHNICAL TERMS HAD BEEN INVENTED BY THE AUTHOR IN LATIN 600 YEARS AFTER THE LANGUAGE WAS DEAD. BUT MRS. HOOVER WAS AN ACCOMPLISHED LINGUIST. SHE WAS ABLE TO READ IT AND WITH HER BACKGROUND OF TECHNICAL TRAINING AND THE FACT THAT I KNEW SOMETHING ABOUT THE SUBJECTS, WE WERE ABLE TO MAKE A TRANSLATION OF IT FOR THE FIRST TIME. IT WAS PURELY A LABOR OF LOVE. IT HAD NO GREAT PRACTICAL VALUE [at that] MODERN TIMES, ALTHOUGH MANY OF THE PROCESSES ILLUSTRATED HERE ARE STILL IN ACTION. IN ANY EVENT, FOR A COUPLE OF HUNDRED YEARS, IT WAS THE TEXTBOOK OF THOSE INDUSTRIES, AND AT ONE TIME, THEY CHAINED IT IN AN IRON BINDING TO THE ALTER [in] CATHEDRALS IN MINING TOWNS, SUCH AS [San Luis Potosi], AND THE PRIESTS TRANSLATED IT FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE MINERS, PLUS THE ILLUSTRATIONS, SO THAT THE BOOK HAD AT ONE TIME A GREAT WEIGHT. [But] OF COURSE NOW IT'S ONLY A MATTER OF INTEREST. THERE [was] NOTHING PARTICULARLY PUBLIC ABOUT THE BOOK AT THE TIME. THERE WERE 2,000 COPIES PRINTED AND DISTRIBUTED AMONGST ENGINEERS. SINCE THAT TIME, IT'S BECOME A RARE ITEM AND IT NOW SELLS FOR $250, BUT WE DON'T HAVE ANY MORE OF THEM.

Mr. Henle: You didn't get the $250?

Fmr. Pres. Hoover: I didn't get the $250.

Mr. Henle: [Well,] IT MUST HAVE BEEN A TREMENDOUSLY DIFFICULT JOB TO TRANSLATE [this].

Fmr. Pres. Hoover: IT WAS A DIFFICULT JOB. IT TOOK FIVE YEARS AND IT FURNISHED [a] FAMILY INTEREST DURING THAT ENTIRE PERIOD.

Mr. Henle: MR. HOOVER, WHEN DID YOUR CAREER AS AN ENGINEER COME TO AN END?

Fmr. Pres. Hoover: IT CAME TO AN END WHEN I -- SHORTLY AFTER I TOOK OVER THE BELGIAN RELIEF IN 1914. [I didn't know it at the time. We all expected the war would be over very shortly and we'd get back to work. But as the war went on and on, my clients and partners had to have some other interest. So, I never went back to that profession.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-12   2:16:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: GreyLmist (#3) (Edited)

Thanks for this. Hoover was a great man. It is too bad he was blamed for the Crash of '29. A lot of that had to do with the banksters and their greediness.

I saw this on the Wiki page: "He became deeply interested in Chinese history, but quickly gave up on learning the language and viewed the Chinese people as racially inferior."

The Sikhs would beat on the Chinese peasants with Bamboo poles to keep them moving. Just a little known fact of history. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2019-06-12   6:00:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: GreyLmist (#3)

De re metallica

I own a copy of that book


I used to be in a hurry, then I figured out I was just getting nowhere fast.

IRTorqued  posted on  2019-06-12   7:06:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: GreyLmist (#3)

Fascinating information and history. Thank you for all the research and bringing it here.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2019-06-12   7:49:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Lod (#6) (Edited)

Fascinating information and history. Thank you for all the research and bringing it here.

Thanks for taking the time to study the research, Lod. Am glad you liked it. At the time I was working on those recent updates of the Hoover interview, was more concerned about filling in the blanks of C-SPAN's video-transcription than with spell-checking their work, as I should have because I noticed today that they spelled the word "altar" wrong.

In 2014, when I was working on the original 4um topic about his interview, I understood that his book-translation project may have unintentionally impacted oil industry motivations and such of that era generally (i.e. sometime prior to the 1960 television broadcast; maybe going back as far as the early 1920s), then echoed onward into the Vietnam War and beyond, too. Also, perhaps ore mining industry aspects of the Vietnam War; as well as those aspects of WWII and the Great Depression timeframe of early research and development leading up to it, then on into the Cold War -- if so, probably all unbeknownst to him as somehow connected to his translated book publication.

It wasn't until researching and compiling these installments, though, of Hoover history that I realized how close it was before WWI when the English translation of that historical textbook became more accessible and that it very possibly had some impact on motivations for that war, unknown to him -- a war of annihilation and sufferance so unprecedented in the vastness of its scope and aftershock ramification-complexities of world history thereafter that it's still nearly impossible to fathom why WWI happened. I certainly don't think that Hoover's books caused that war but do think now that the mining industry moguls likely had far more ulterior motives covertly involved besides smashing the Ottoman Empire for control of oil resources there, which is the most obvious geological factor attributable to them.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-12   16:44:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: IRTorqued (#5) (Edited)

De re metallica

I own a copy of that book


If you really do, I'd like to hear more about it. Here's a link to the 4um Post which has information highlighted concerning that book, the Vietnam War and some oil industry context; from another book linked there that discusses the Hoover-translated publication before his 1929 Presidency. I disagree with a number of the author's stated opinions in that chapter but, while I'm here, am archiving an excerpt that isn't highlighted at that posting but is possibly of relevance, imo, to the USS Liberty's destruction in the Mid-East during the Vietnam War period and the recalls of rescue jets, which caused it to be rendered unusable for deployment to the Indochina region and the war against Communism there:

In 1964, after Viet Nam was divided into North and South, and the contrived Gulf of Tonkin incident, several US aircraft carriers were stationed offshore of Viet Nam and the war was started. Every day jet planes would take off from the carriers, bomb locations in North and South Vietnam, and then using normal military procedure when returning would dump their unsafe or unused bombs in the ocean before landing back on the carriers. Safe ordnance drop zones were designated for this purpose away from the carriers.

Even close-up observers would only notice many small explosions occurring daily in the waters of the South China Sea and thought it was only part of the war.

-------

"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-12   20:04:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: BTP Holdings (#4) (Edited)

Thanks for this. Hoover was a great man. It is too bad he was blamed for the Crash of '29. A lot of that had to do with the banksters and their greediness.

I saw this on the Wiki page: "He became deeply interested in Chinese history, but quickly gave up on learning the language and viewed the Chinese people as racially inferior."

The Sikhs would beat on the Chinese peasants with Bamboo poles to keep them moving. Just a little known fact of history. ;)


You're welcome. I agree that he was a great man and think, too, that he was a good man who meant well and tried to do the best he could under the dreadful circumstances of his time. He should be more honorably remembered for that than the Great Depression era that wasn't his fault, imo. Looks to me like practically all of that had do with the greediness of banksters and others, as you pointed out. I tried to find the exact date the stock market crash happened and was surprised to find three different dates by different sources: October 24, 1929 - October 27, 1929 - October 29, 1929. The year cited for when that disaster officially ended, though, is usually 1939.

The Chinese guest-worker problem here caused not just a Constitutional Crisis but has been catastrophically damaging to our citizenship laws ever since then, so I suspect that did not result in many favorable opinions of them and what's called "racism" against them has less to do with viewing them as "inferiors" than it does with the Wong Kim Ark episode of ingratitude and worse, which was sidelined for a while by the Spanish-American War. America had a treaty with China in accordance with Chinese rules that prevented their people who came here on the guest-worker program from altering their Chinese citizenship status or that of their family members. Instead of "Thanks, America, for the opportunities to work and live here," we got our Constitution mangled, more guest-worker "Entitlement" demands from nearly everywhere, "birth tourism" for "anchor babies" and chain-migration expectations by invaders from around the world too, etc. [4um Ref.] This excerpt from that linked topic is highlighted for Chinese relevance in this one to the mining industry subject of Hoover and his book project:

the Chinese laborers program from the previous century -- mostly males; many working in the gold mining and railroad industries at that time.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-12   21:56:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: GreyLmist (#7) (Edited)

it's still nearly impossible to fathom why WWI happened.

This one is not difficult to answer. I knew there was an assassination that started the war.

e n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ass..._Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand

WW I was supposed to be the war to end all wars. But the Treaty of Versailles sowed the seeds for WW II and the rise of Adolph Hitler. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2019-06-13   6:31:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: BTP Holdings (#10) (Edited)

it's still nearly impossible to fathom why WWI happened.

This one is not difficult to answer. I knew there was an assassination that started the war.

e n.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ass..._Archduke_Franz_Ferdinand

WW I was supposed to be the war to end all wars. But the Treaty of Versailles sowed the seeds for WW II and the rise of Adolph Hitler. ;)


Thanks for your assistance but the official narratives of both World Wars are diversions, imo. There have been many assassinations throughout history but nothing on the scale of WWI occurred and the Emperor of Austria didn't even want the Archduke to be his heir. Kaiser Wilhelm was more concerned than the Emperor of Austria that the governing system of Rule by Monarchy was under attack and he was right about that. It was under attack by the forces of Communism. As bad as the Treaty of Versailles was for the German people, it's just a pretext, imo, to camouflage the onslaught of Communism through Hitler and Stalin's leading roles in that World War to advance it. They started officially by partitioning Poland between themselves because it had already been partitioned into 3 sections before in centuries past - between Russia, Prussia/Germany and Austria. Prior to that move, the USSR had arranged Birobidzhan as a safe haven for Jews (which some have even described as the first Israel) way over on the east coast of Russia, far from the western war zone; and Kaliningrad was near that zone as like a transport point to get to the autonomous place of their own as needed. Many preferred to go to Palestine and did, legally or not. Nevertheless, America is still villified as if they had no other refuge options. Why? We should ask the Reparations Movement for an answer to that question, I suppose. And, over in Egypt -- the African theatre of that war, where Hilter's Army was on the doorstep of Palestine -- it wasn't his forces there that they viewed as if an impending existential threat. It was the British forces trying to keep Palestine stable by immigration rules, which they attacked themselves for that reason. So, those are a few examples of why I suspect that the bigger picture of Communism is being obscured behind a smokescreen of "official World War narratives".

There's one more thing along these lines that I had intended to address in my previous reply but didn't, so I've put that on my to-do list for today.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-13   10:08:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: All (#11) (Edited)

the onslaught of Communism through Hitler and Stalin's leading roles in that World War to advance it. They started officially by partitioning Poland between themselves because it had already been partitioned into 3 sections before in centuries past - between Russia, Prussia/Germany and Austria.

Poland [History] - worldatlas.com | Excerpt:

The Partitions Of Poland

In the late 1700s Poland's three powerful neighbors, Austria, Prussia and Russia coveted Poland. None wanted war with each other so they just decided to divide the now-weakened Poland in a series of agreements called the Three Partitions of Poland. These took place in 1772, 1793 and 1795, with the latter effectively erasing Poland from the map. Even at this dark time, however, the country‘s government managed to ratify a constitution called the Constitution of May 3rd. It was the very first constitution in Europe and the second in the world after the U.S. constitution.
>
The partitions of Poland lasted 123 years and were a time of turmoil; the Poles rebelled several times against the partitioners. Russia was the most aggressive and the Poles were forced to resort to guerrilla warfare tactics. Many uprisings were organised, with the 1831-1832 and 1863-1864 uprisings being the most significant. Fortunately there was a light at the end of the tunnel as during the partitioning large scale industrial projects were constructed and modernization programs instituted by the occupying powers, which (in the end) would help Poland develop economically once again. This was particularly true in the Prussian and German partitions, while the Russian partition was significantly poorer and less industrialized.
>
Page 2:

And then came World War I. With Poland's three occupying powers at war with each other, Poland became the main fighting ground.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-13   11:54:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: GreyLmist (#11)

Kaiser Wilhelm was more concerned than the Emperor of Austria that the governing system of Rule by Monarchy was under attack and he was right about that. It was under attack by the forces of Communism.

Certainly, Monarchy was the most hated form of government by the Communists. Next on the list was the Constitutional form such as in the U.S.

Remember too when the Nazis were burning books, they burned specifically books by Karl Marx. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2019-06-13   16:30:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: BTP Holdings (#13) (Edited)

Certainly, Monarchy was the most hated form of government by the Communists. Next on the list was the Constitutional form such as in the U.S.


Probably so, which would be another reason why Poland was struck first, because it had the 2nd Constitution in the world after the U.S. (Ref. the worldatlas.com History-report above @ Post #12). The U.S. was farther away and Poland could be double-team attacked from two sides at once. Now we're told by Pro-Communist writers to count all the resident enemies of Stalin that were killed by him in Soviet territories during WWII as if they were Soviet-allied losses -- even those he had assassinated in the Katyn Forest, for example.


Remember too when the Nazis were burning books, they burned specifically books by Karl Marx. ;)


Stalin and Hitler wouldn't have been able to weaken, wreck and depopulate as much of the world as they did for Communist control after that war if Germans weren't convinced that defeating Communism was their leadership's main objective.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-13   19:00:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: BTP Holdings (#4) (Edited)

the Crash of '29. A lot of that had to do with the banksters and their greediness.

At the 2nd Wikipedia link of Post #3 here and the 2nd sentence of Paragraph 1 about the historical mining-industry textbook that the Hoovers translated from Latin to English, it's mentioned that the author's real name wasn't Georgius Agricola. It was Georg Bauer. The surname Bauer is one that has been noted with some frequency in banking research as closely associated with the surname Rothschild. I'm sceptical that Herbert Hoover would have known of that connection or thought it to be of some concern before the Great Depression happened almost 2 decades after the book had been translated. That banking business connectivity issue is what I had intended to add in my reply yesterday but didn't so there it is now.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-13   19:50:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: GreyLmist (#15)

it's mentioned that the author's real name wasn't Georgius Agricola. It was Georg Bauer. The surname Bauer is one that has been noted with some frequency in banking research as closely associated with the surname Rothschild. I'm sceptical that Herbert Hoover would have known of that connection or thought it to be of some concern before the Great Depression happened almost 2 decades after the book had been translated. That banking business connectivity issue is what I had intended to add in my reply yesterday but didn't so there it is now.

I doubt that Hoover would have had any inkling of this connection. The Rothschilds were devious in instituting the founding of the Federal Reserve System.

The prime uncovering of the machinations of the FED and how money is created is exposed in the book by G. Edward Griffin, The Creature From Jekyll Island. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2019-06-13   20:43:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: GreyLmist (#14)

if Germans weren't convinced that defeating Communism was their leadership's main objective.

It was rather nice of Stalin to allow German air crews to train in Russia. This is how they were able to evade the terms and conditions of the Versailles Treaty. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2019-06-14   18:54:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: GreyLmist (#15) (Edited)

At the 2nd Wikipedia link of Post #3 here and the 2nd sentence of Paragraph 1 about the historical mining-industry textbook that the Hoovers translated from Latin to English, it's mentioned that the author's real name wasn't Georgius Agricola. It was Georg Bauer. The surname Bauer is one that has been noted with some frequency in banking research as closely associated with the surname Rothschild.

You gotta be careful in construing much about someone's religion from a family name. I've known any number of Jewish people in my life with the last name Miller.

Both "Agricola" and "Bauer" are rendered as "farmer" in English. Georgius Agricola was baptised as Georg Pawer but is better known Georg Bauer in German. He lived and died a confirmed and practicing Catholic.

He was a highly accomplished man in many fields BTW.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G eorgius_Agricola

randge  posted on  2019-06-14   19:14:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: randge (#18) (Edited)

At the 2nd Wikipedia link of Post #3 here and the 2nd sentence of Paragraph 1 about the historical mining-industry textbook that the Hoovers translated from Latin to English, it's mentioned that the author's real name wasn't Georgius Agricola. It was Georg Bauer. The surname Bauer is one that has been noted with some frequency in banking research as closely associated with the surname Rothschild.

You gotta be careful in construing much about someone's religion from a family name. I've known any number of Jewish people in my life with the last name Miller.

Both "Agricola" and "Bauer" are rendered as "farmer" in English. Georgius Agricola was baptised as Georg Pawer but is better known Georg Bauer in German. He lived and died a confirmed and practicing Catholic.

He was a highly accomplished man in many fields BTW.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgius_Agricola


Thanks for the cautionary words, historical info and the link, randge. I wasn't sure at the time of my post how the names Bauer and Rothschild were associated in banking topics I'd seen through the years, just that the name Bauer had been prominently noted but sporadically. Since I didn't want to do more research about it then, I wasn't trying to make a religious or familial connection specifically, just a probable business association with those names somehow. Hadn't researched the author of the book personally so about all I knew of him from researching the book is that Agricola was his pen name, Bauer was his surname, he was German and he had a very negative opinion of alchemists - which he made a point of stating so that his works wouldn't be misconstrued with such.

After your post, I looked for the name Bauer at Wikipedia's page about the Rothschild family and it isn't mentioned there at all - only that the first known use of the Rothschild name was in 1577 (22 years after the passing of Mr. Agricola/Bauer), that it is a German name and denotes the red shield of their business symbol. Information about the Rothschilds begins there, as it typically does, in the 1700s. Other research, though, indicated that the names Feibesch and Bauer were two of their earlier surnames.

From the Wikipedia page you posted, it seems that he was a very devout Catholic and his Protestant friend thought so highly of him, despite their religous differences, that he wrote a poem about him and it was included in the book when it was printed posthumously. Evidently, he chose to remain a Catholic after Martin Luther and his factions had left the Church. Even so, since being Catholic doesn't necessarily mean "not of Jewish lineage", I can't presume that he wasn't of the Bauer/"farmer" origins that later became the Rothschilds.

These are excerpts from the Wikipedia link that you provided:

in his capacity of physician, [he suggested] that minerals and their effects on and relationship to human medicine should be a future subject of investigation. ... Upon his search for employment as town physician and pharmacist in the Ore Mountains, ... he settled in the suitable little town Joachimsthal in the Bohemian Erzgebirge, where in 1516 significant silver ore deposits were found. ... Agricola's most famous work [was] the De re metallica
>
In 1912, the Mining Magazine (London) published an English translation of De re metallica. The translation was made by Herbert Hoover, the American mining engineer and his wife Lou Henry Hoover. Hoover was later President of the United States.

I was also able to find a link in the footnotes at that Wikipedia page for the Hoovers' book but the print is very small and increasing the size of the font displays only a partial page. This is from the site's article about it:

De Re Metallica full text & illustrated. Agricola. Hoover.

The history of Western civilization is inseparably connected with the mining industry. ... Mining was typically left to professionals, craftsmen and experts who were not eager to share their knowledge. ... This knowledge was handed down [verbally] within a small group of technicians and mining overseers. It was a small, cosmopolitan elite within which existing knowledge was passed on and further developed but not shared with the outside world. ... In the middle ages these people held the same leading role as the master builders of the great cathedrals, or perhaps also alchemists. ... only a few writers from that time write anything about mining itself. Partly that was because this knowledge was very difficult to access. ... In 1500 the publication of the first printed book dedicated to mining engineering [was] called the “Nutzlich Bergbuchleyn” (The Useful Little Mining Book”) by Ulrich Rulein von Calw. The most important work in this genre [was], however, the twelve books De Re Metallica by Georgius Agricola, published in 1556.

Agricola (his real name was Georg Bauer) was born in 1494 in Glauchau in Saxony. ... His main job was that of doctor, but he studied all known science in that time. In his youth he taught Latin and Greek for a while; During this time he also published a Latin grammar. From 1524 to 1526, he resided in Italy, the “Mecca of science” [i.e. science center of Europe] at the time.

In 1526, he returned to Germany and in 1527 he was appointed city physician and pharmacist of the City St. Joachimsthal in the Ore mountains. St. Joachimsthal (the current Jachymov in Czechia) was only a few years earlier, in 1515, created after rich silver finds on site. In the time of Agricola it had already become one of the most important mining centers of Europe. A new, heavy silver coin was struck from the ore found there. This coin was named after the place of origin: “Joachimsthaler”. Abbreviated as “Thaler” this word soon became the denomination of all silver coins of this type. The English word for it was “Dollar”.
>
Although [De Re Metallica] is the last book that Agricola published, he must have begun with it when living in St. Joachimsthal. All in all he spent more than twenty-five years working on it. ... Still Agricola did not come to know all the secrets of the trade. But thanks to [some leading mining experts] he had access to a large amount of experiential knowledge that otherwise would have remained hidden.

Even though the Hoovers' English translation of that rare book was published in London, England instead of in America, I've found no evidence that it was a commissioned project by the Rothschilds or anyone else. Mr. Hoover had mining industry experience and Mrs. Hoover had Latin expertise, so they may have acquired a copy through his occupational interest in the history of that industry and thought it could be beneficial for university libraries as a reference, if it was printed in English. Since it was published in 1912, WWI started soon after in 1914, and 1913 is notable in America for: 1) the 16th Amendment/Income Tax invention that would be used for war debt repayments, etc. and 2) the stealth and speed that the Federal Reserve was invented here as the central banking system of the United States - I still think it's quite possible that this book may have had something to do with WWI motivations, even if the author wasn't associated directly or indirectly himself with the Rothschild ancestry or any of their business matters then. At this point, though, I have to suspect now much more than I did before that there was some sort of distant lineal and/or regional connection there, if not a monetary/finance/banking connection too, regardless of Mr. Agricola/Bauer being religiously Catholic. Anyway, am appreciative that I was able to be somewhat better informed about these historical subjects from the additional research and especially do appreciate that I could view the Hoover book version of his work from the footnoted source at the Wikipedia page about him, which you linked here for us, so thanks again for that and your help.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-15   18:22:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: BTP Holdings (#17)

It was rather nice of Stalin to allow German air crews to train in Russia. This is how they were able to evade the terms and conditions of the Versailles Treaty. ;)

I don't think his objective was to be nice. I think his objective and Hitler's was to weaken, wreck and depopulate as much of the world as they could for post-war control by Communism.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-15   20:42:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: BTP Holdings (#16)

The prime uncovering of the machinations of the FED and how money is created is exposed in the book by G. Edward Griffin, The Creature From Jekyll Island. ;)


Thanks for that link to his book about the Federal Reserve. Lots of interesting commentaries and info scattered amongst the book ads on that page.

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-06-15   21:11:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: GreyLmist, all (#21)

The prime uncovering of the machinations of the FED and how money is created is exposed in the book by G. Edward Griffin, The Creature From Jekyll Island. ;)

Thanks for that link to his book about the Federal Reserve. Lots of interesting commentaries and info scattered amongst the book ads on that page.

That book is now in its 5th printing. It has staying power.

The boss at work asked, "Who do I owe that dollar to?" I will suggest he get a copy of that book. ;)

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one." Edmund Burke

BTP Holdings  posted on  2019-06-15   21:16:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: GreyLmist (#19)

Many thanks for ferreting out all this information and for your insights and thoughts on what it all may mean.

A personal observation is that jews don't seem to have any problem in changing their surnames when it suits their purposes.

“The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.” ~ H. L. Mencken

Lod  posted on  2019-06-15   21:20:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Lod (#23)

Many thanks for ferreting out all this information and for your insights and thoughts on what it all may mean.

A personal observation is that jews don't seem to have any problem in changing their surnames when it suits their purposes.

Many thanks for your interest and patience to trudge through this expansive history of several centuries (that I should have punctuated more carefully in places for clarity). Meant to get back here somewhat sooner to archive two more additions but didn't until now. The first is to note a specific business connection referenced between Herbert Hoover and the Rothschilds that I happened to read about (at Post #3 of a different 4um topic), which may or may not be traceable to the book of these discussions:

Herbert Hoover was a Rothschild business partner through Rio Tinto Zinc.

This link is to a Canadian Industrial Mining magazine article with a very insightful history of the book, De Re Metallica (aka the Agricola), its author, George Bauer (aka Georgius Agricola), and the Hoovers' English translation that "won a Gold Medal from the Mining and Metallurgical Society of America."

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"They're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time." -- Col. Puller, USMC

GreyLmist  posted on  2019-10-29   7:02:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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