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Title: There Will Be No Rapture!"
Source:
Demonbuster.com
URL Source: http://www.demonbuster.com/rapture.html
Published: Mar 30, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-03-30 21:35:16 by IndieTX
Keywords: RAPTURE, TRIBULATION
Views: 920
Comments: 62
Some say that THE RAPTURE was mentioned by this one or that one way back when. None of that matters since people still have their own THEORIES. What does matter is what it says in the Bible. Sorry, but NO RAPTURE in the Bible. Find anyone who has never heard of THE RAPTURE. Show them all the Scriptures you were taught meaning RAPTURE. With no comments from you, ask them what they think the Scriptures mean. You could do this on a Believer or a non Believer. I doubt they will come up with your RAPTURE THEORY. The purpose of this page is to make sure you are not one of the Christians involved in THE GREAT FALLING AWAY. Let me first say that JESUS IS COMING AGAIN. He just is NOT taking us out of this world while singing, "I'll fly away". I use to believe in THE RAPTURE. Then I found Chapter 17 of John. JESUS is in the garden just before his death praying for US - YOU AND ME. John 17:15 (JESUS praying to The Father) "I pray NOT that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should keep them from evil." Verse 20 - Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. (That is you and me.) If JESUS asked NOT to take us OUT, we're NOT going! The Rapture theory has nothing to do with your Salvation. Just make sure you are ready to meet Jesus, no matter how or when you die, or when Jesus returns to the earth to set up His Kingdom. Religious people are always arguing about WHEN it will happen - PRE - MID - POST tribulation. Believing NO RAPTURE solves all those arguments. Some people prefer NOT to call it THE RAPTURE, but have other names for it. You hear people quoting Scripture when they say COME QUICKLY, LORD JESUS. They are looking for an ESCAPE from the things of this world. When things REALLY get bad, and there is NO RAPTURE, many will turn their back on Jesus because they were not RESCUED. When this happens, they cancel their ticket to Heaven. This is exactly what the devil wanted, when he started the teaching of THE RAPTURE. I was told that when China had the revolution, many Chinese Believers turned their back on the Lord because they were expecting to be RAPTURED out of their situation. "RAPTURE! PROPHECY OR HERESY" is a book by Colonel H. Speed Wilson (Daring Publisher). Since 1989, he has offered a $10,000 reward to anyone who can prove scripturally that the Saints are taken OUT OF THE WORLD. The following is taken from the back cover of the book. "The Rapture theology has been one of the most controversial topics among Christians since the early 1800s to the present. The most commonly addressed questions in the popular books, pamphlets and sermons is WHEN will the Rapture occur? WILL the Rapture be pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation? And...WILL it be a secret and silent removal of Christians or a glorious return of JESUS? As an astute Bible Scholar, Speed Wilson now raises a question in his new thought-provoking book he feels is the most important and even critical question of all, IS THERE REALLY TO BE A RAPTURE? Topics in Speed's book include Rapture Support Arguments, Origin of Rapture, What May Happen, What We Must Do, Consequences of the Rapture Doctrine, and, finally, Your $10,000 Challenge! Speed is offering this $10,000 reward to anyone who can, after reading his book, reference any scriptures that clearly state that the Saints (Holy Ones, Righteous, Church, Body, Bride, Wheat...etc.) Are taken out of the world! Details as to how to receive this reward are presented in the book. The publisher, Daring Books, will give a $1,000 reward to the bookstore that sells the book to the person who qualifies for the $10,000 reward!" FROM WARRIOR MINISTRIES - ENDING "END-TIME" CONFUSION Scripture tells us "God is not the author of confusion" (I Cor. 14:33). Yet when it comes to proper end-time direction, our churches almost universally exude the spirit of confusion. Hardened neck pastors of churches refusing to acknowledge this travesty against the Saints and correct it, should be refused the support of the Saints. Someone wise once well said: "If we don't know where we are going, we probably won't get there". So it is today in the absence of practical common sense teaching for Saints to guide themselves and future Christians toward the second coming of our Lord JESUS. As a starting point where satan apparently introduced deception to weaken and confuse the churches, we could look to a Jesuit priest named Emmanuel Lacunza. Lacunza's 1790 book titled, "The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty", was in the early 1800's published in many languages. Rev. Edward Irving, a presbyter of the Church of Scotland, translated the book to English and it was published in 1826. The error gathered momentum when in 1830 a fifteen year old Scottish young lady named Margaret MacDonald reportedly had a PROPHETIC END-TIME VISION which gained credibility and spread. Another suspect teacher of note is J.N. Darby of England. A student of Darby was Cyrus I. Scofield (1843-1921), a successful American lawyer. Scofield published widely distributed Bible Reference Notes in 1909. From these beginnings the errors have become widely accepted as "gospel". Certainly it is the will of the Lord JESUS that we all come to a peace and sensible practical directional unity of eschatology for us and our posterity. May God speedily give us this victory. [This is where the modern Rapture theory started] Now for some Scriptures and more good stuff that also came from Speed Wilson's book: Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. THEY and THEM are clearly the WICKED (ungodly unbelievers). Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left. Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left. Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all. ...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left. Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left. RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you. Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER. 2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED). Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.... Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again. Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire... Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth. I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape. Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days. How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE? ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1 Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it. Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy. Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED; Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth... Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land... Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross. Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King... Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED). Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY. Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it. Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up... Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER. Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth. Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth). Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more. Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place. The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO. Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS. Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath. Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO NO RAPTURE, JUST MUCH TRIBULATION 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the SINGLE Scripture used to justify THE RAPTURE by false doctrine. Based on Scripture, you cannot make a doctrine on a SINGLE Scripture. The word RAPTURE does not appear in the text of any translation of the Bible, in any language. "CAUGHT UP" are the words used by many when referring to THE RAPTURE. King James must have missed this one because the words "CAUGHT UP" are not found in the Young's Concordance for 1 Thessalonians 4:17. However, "CATCH" is listed under that Scripture. That word appears 13 times, and is translated six different ways: catch, catch away, catch (caught) up, pluck and take by force. In the 12 other Scriptures, it has nothing to do with the physical removal of living people from the earth/world to heaven. Also in THE RAPTURE CHAPTER, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is to meet the lord IN THE AIR. According to the Strong's and Young's concordance, "AIR" is the Greek word "AER", as used in the following Scriptures: Acts 22:23, ...and threw dust into the air (AER). 1 Corinthians 9:26, ...not as one who beateth the air (AER). 1 Corinthians 14:9, ...for ye shall speak in the air (AER). Another Greek word which is also translated, AIR, in the KJV of the Bible is OURANOS. That translation is found in Matthew 6:26, 8:20, 13:32; Mark 4:4 and 32; Luke 8:5, 9:58, 13:19 and Acts 10:12, 11:6. Each one of these Scriptures refer to "the birds/fowls of the air (ouranos). Grab a handful of dust and throw it into the air. That's about where you would be hanging IF there were to be a RAPTURE, based on the recorded meaning of the word AIR. Next we have the phrase "with them in the CLOUDS". If you look outside, you can see the clouds WAY UP there. BUT, is that what the Scripture means? No. In the following Scriptures, the CLOUD came DOWN to earth: Matthew 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:34 In 1Corinthians 10:1,2, they were UNDER the CLOUD, and were baptized IN the CLOUD. Hebrews 11:36 through 12:2 talks about SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES. With all of the above, let us read 1 Thessalonians 4, beginning at verse 13, with a much more accurate and clearer understanding of the words and terms used therein. For clarity, the following Scripture quotes from 1 Thessalonians are in capital letters. "BUT I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP (this Scripture is primarily about the departed/dead saints in Christ) THAT YE SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS WHICH HAVE NO HOPE (the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection). FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN (we all believe that), EVEN SO (in like manner) THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP (are dead) IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM (Jesus). FOR THIS WE SAY UNTO YOU BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, THAT WE (Biblical believers) WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN (on earth) UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD SHALL NOT PREVENT (precede) (have any advantage over) THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP. FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN (Acts 1:11, Jesus went directly from earth to Heaven and shall return "in like manner" directly from Heaven to earth. No rapture back to heaven for a later third coming!) WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND THE TRUMP(et) OF GOD: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE (Greek word, anistemi: to set up or be resurrected) FIRST: THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE ("We shall not all die, but shall be changed/transformed/transfigured" (1 Cor 15:51) AND REMAIN (on the earth in the "aer") SHALL BE CAUGHT UP (made one) (harpazo) TOGETHER (at the same time) WITH THEM (the dead in Christ) IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR (the "great cloud of witnesses" that will "be made perfect" with us on earth when Jesus brings their spirits "with Him" to be united with their bodies resurrected out of the ground "first" into the air [aer] with us in the air, on the surface of the earth): AND SO SHALL WE (for) EVER BE WITH THE LORD (in the air [aer] here ON earth forever). WHEREFORE, COMFORT (reassure) ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS." (Notice, the Lord "descended from Heaven" before we are "caught up" to Him; just as the "New Jerusalem" came down to dwell with us--Rev. 21:2.) It is a fact that no Christian churches, congregations or fellowships existing prior to 1830 proclaimed a RAPTURE doctrine, and all accepted the Biblical truth that Christians would be on earth during the time of great tribulation. Before 1830, the single RAPTURE Scripture of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 were accepted as resurrection verses. The SCOFIELD Bible and the DAKE'S Bible were the first to carry FOOTNOTES about THE RAPTURE. It's all (BAD) history from there! REMEMBER THAT THE MODERN RAPTURE THEORY WAS STARTED BY A 15 YEAR OLD CATHOLIC GIRL IN ENGLAND BY THE NAME OF MARGARET MAC DONALD IN 1830 WHO HAD A VISION. The following is quoted from a book by Dave MacPherson (historian) called THE RAPTURE PLOT: "What generally hasn't been known about Margaret is the extent to which she was open to the world of the 'occult' (definition: 'secret or hidden knowledge of supernatural phenomena'). ...Take the word 'rapture'. Many still don't know that this word (body-lifting sense) had been used for CENTURIES by medieval mystics to describe their own levitation a few inches (or even several feet) above the floor or ground. Such 'raptures' were often condemned by Catholic leaders... And Robert Norton, the pretrib origin chronicler, revealed the following about Margaret and one of her friends: 'I have seen both her and Miss Margaret MacDonald stand like statues scarcely touching the ground, evidently supernaturally'." (pp. 51-52). Here is an article that came from http://world-ministries.org: Left Behind Movie Misleads Believers Gary North - http://LewRockwell.com - 1/10/2001 Christians are being led into false doctrine by the best-selling book series "Left Behind" soon to be in a major movie of the same name. Jesus taught us in the parable of the wheat and tares that believers and nonbelievers would live together until the end of the world. "Only at the end of time will the corporate separation take place: sheep and goats, wheat and tares, saved and lost, covenant-keepers and covenant-breakers. Until then, the separation remains confessional and institutional, not physical and corporate. "Until 1830, the Christian church universally taught this doctrine of temporal non-separation. In 1830, a tiny English Protestant sect known as the Irvingites proclaimed a new doctrine. The church will escape the prophesied future tribulation by being removed from history. The church will be pulled into heaven at an event that is today referred to as 'the Rapture' ... "The Irvingites' idea was immediately adopted by John Nelson Darby, a leader of the small British sect known as the Plymouth Brethren. Darby brought this doctrine to the United States. Decades later, in the 1880's, it finally began to spread among American fundamentalists, especially those who were upset by the appearance of what soon became known as the Social Gospel, which identified the kingdom of God with the Progressive movement. The Social Gospel's defenders secularized the older postmillennialism of the Puritans and American Presbyterians, concluding that the interventionist State will progressively manifest the political aspect of the kingdom of God in history. "Fundamentalists rejected such a notion, but offered in its place the Irving-Darby doctrine: the pre-tribulational, pre-millennial Rapture. The Rapture will take place 1,007 years prior to the final judgment, seven years prior to the bodily return of Jesus to set up an international Christian bureaucracy to run the world. This thousand-year era will be known as the millennial kingdom of God. Jesus will therefore return pre-millennially. "What was new in this premillennial outline was the doctrine that Christ will remove the church from the world 3.5 years prior to the great tribulation period, which will last for another 3.5 years. Seven years after the Rapture, He will return to set up His earthly kingdom. Traditional premillennialism, which has a long history, had previously taught that Christ will return after the great tribulation of His church. There will be no period in history where there is not continuity for His church. So, Jesus will come secretly to rapture his church into heaven. Then the antichrist will set up an international government to rule the world. " This false teaching of the rapture has caused Christians to think they need do nothing. Teaching that the rapture can occur any day is false, because it causes Christians to think that we are soon to leave earth and do not need to be active in Spiritual Warfare. But God needs us to be salt, and speak truth, and make a difference in the world today. FOR ANOTHER INDEPTH STUDY ON NO RAPTURE, COPY AND PASTE http://www.ricter.com/wordline/rapture.htm The following information came from an email: "Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation. Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century. He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model. This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment: "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah. This, of course, doesn't prove that the pre-tribulation view is correct; only that it was held (by some) in the early centuries and was not unique to the revival of the 1830's. It simply documents that this view was held by a remnant of the faithful from the beginning until today." Remember, THE RAPTURE is a THEORY, a bad one. Poster Comment: For more proof the rapture theory is a false teaching, from a different perspective and better Biblical proof than this article offers, visit the website www.endtimeinsights.com. Thessalonians "rapture verse" is clearly talking about the ONE Second Coming of Christ.
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The "Rapture" is in the Bible. It was most specifically taught by Paul to the Corinthians and Thessalonians: 1Co 15:51-52 (NASB) Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, (52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1Th 4:16-17 (NASB) For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. (17) Then we who are alive and remain will be caught726 up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Strong's G726 ±ÁÀ±¶É Note that the phrase "caught726 up" in the original Greek is the word ±ÁÀ±¶É or harpazo. When the Greek Septuagint was translated into Latin (to become the Vulgate translation) the word ±ÁÀ±¶É or harpazo was translated into Latin as the verb rapio, meaning "caught up," or the noun raptura, which then became the Anglicanized term "rapture" when these passages were discussed. So, no the word "rapture" does not appear exactly as such in any bible. It is the Anglicanized term for what Paul called the ±ÁÀ±¶É or harpazo - the "catching up". OTOH, if one researches teachings on "catching up" or 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, one finds numerous references from the time of Paul's Epistle to the Thessalonians, forward. Below are a sampling of the ante-Nicene Church Fathers writings on "the Rapture" in the two centuries immediately following Paul's epistles. Note the following is not intended to be exhaustive and are only excerpts from their full writings. The point being that "The Rapture" was in fact taught from the beginning. The "Rapture" is scriptural and not a new doctrine. Irenaeus A.D. 140-202 Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book IV. Chap. XXII. - Christ Did Not Come for the Sake of the Men of One Age Only, but for All Who, Living Righteously and Piously, Had Believed upon Him; and for Those, Too, Who Shall Believe. Wherefore He shall, at His second coming, first rouse from their sleep all persons of this description, and shall raise them up, as well as the rest who shall be judged, and give them a place in His kingdom. Irenaeus Against Heresies. Book V. Chap. XXIX. - All Things Have Been Created for the Service of Man. The Deceits, Wickedness, and Apostate Power of Antichrist. This Was Prefigured at the Deluge, as Afterwards by the Persecution of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Tertulian A.D. 150-220 The Writings of Tertullian Part First - Apologetic IX. A Treatise on the Soul. Chap. LV. - The Christian Idea of the Position of Hades; the Blessedness of Paradise Immediately After Death. The Privilege of the Martyrs. How, indeed, shall the soul mount up to heaven, where Christ is already sitting at the Father's right hand, when as yet the archangel's trumpet has not been heard by the command of God, (1Co_15:52 and 1Th_4:16) - when as yet those whom the coming of the Lord is to find on the earth, have not been caught up into the air to meet Him at His coming, (1Th_4:17) in company with the dead in Christ, who shall be the first to arise? (1Th_4:16) The Writings of Tertullian Part Second - Anti-Marcion II. The Five Books Against Marcion. Book III. Chap. XXIV. - Christ's Millennial and Heavenly Glory in Company with His Saints. For we shall, according to the apostle, be caught up into the clouds to meet the Lord (even the Son of man, who shall come in the clouds, according to Daniel (Dan_7:13)) and so shall we ever be with the Lord, (1Th_4:17) so long as He remains both on the earth and in heaven, ... The Writings of Tertullian Part Second - Anti-Marcion II. The Five Books Against Marcion. Book V. Chap. XV. - The First Epistle to the Thessalonians. The Shorter Epistles Pungent in Sense and Very Valuable. St. Paul Upbraids the Jews for the Death First of Their Prophets and Then of Christ. This a Presumption that Both Christ and the Prophets Pertained to the Same God. The Law of Nature, Which Is in Fact the Creator's Discipline, and the Gospel of Christ Both Enjoin Chastity. The Resurrection Provided for in the Old Testament by Christ. Man's Compound Nature. He says that those who "remain unto the coming of Christ," along with "the dead in Christ, shall rise first," being "caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1Th_4:15-17) I find it was in their foresight of all this, that the heavenly intelligences gazed with admiration on "the Jerusalem which is above," (Gal_4:26) and by the mouth of Isaiah said long ago: "Who are these that fly as clouds, and as doves with their young ones, unto me?" (Isa_60:8) Now, as Christ has prepared for us this ascension into heaven, He must be the Christ of whom Amos356 spoke: "It is He who builds His ascent up to the heavens," (Amo_9:6) even for Himself and His people. The Writings of Tertullian Part Second - Anti-Marcion II. The Five Books Against Marcion. Book V. Chap. XX. - The Epistle to the Philippians. The Variances Amongst the Preachers of Christ No Argument that There Was More than One Only Christ. St. Paul's Phrases - Form of a Servant, Likeness, and Fashion of a Man - No Sanction of Docetism. No Antithesis (Such as Marcion Alleged) in the God of Judaism and the God of the Gospel Deducible from Certain Contrasts Mentioned in This Epistle. A Parallel with a Passage in Genesis. The Resurrection of the Body, and the Change Thereof. If, again, Christ in His advent from heaven "shall change the body of our humiliation, that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body," (Phi_3:21)446 it follows that this body of ours shall rise again, which is now in a state of humiliation in its sufferings and according to the law of mortality drops into the ground. But how shall it be changed, if it shall have no real existence? If, however, this is only said of those who shall be found in the flesh (1Co_15:51-52) at the advent of God, and who shall have to be changed,"447 what shall they do who will rise first? They will have no substance from which to undergo a change. But he says (elsewhere), "We shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord (in the air)." (1Th_4:16-17) Then, if we are to be caught up alone with them, surely we shall likewise be changed together with them. The Writings of Tertullian Part Second - Anti-Marcion VI. On the Resurrection of the Flesh. Chap. XXIV. - Other Passages Quoted from St. Paul, Which Categorically Assert the Resurrection of the Flesh at the Final Judgment. He teaches them that they must "not sorrow concerning them that are asleep," and at the same time explains to them the times of the resurrection, saying, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus shall God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of our Lord, shall not prevent them that are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord." (1Th_4:13-17) What archangel's voice, (I wonder), what trump of God is now heard, except it be, forsooth, in the entertainments of the heretics? For, allowing that the word of the gospel may be called "the trump of God," since it was still calling men, yet they must at that time either be dead as to the body, that they may be able to rise again; and then how are they alive? Or else caught up into the clouds; and how then are they here? "Most miserable," no doubt, as the apostle declared them, are they "who in this life only" shall be found to have hope: (1Co_15:19) they will have to be excluded while they are with premature haste seizing that which is promised after this life; erring concerning the truth, no less than Phygellus and Hermogenes. (2Ti_1:15) Hence it is that the Holy Ghost, in His greatness, foreseeing clearly all such interpretations as these, suggests (to the apostle), in this very epistle of his to the Thessalonians, as follows: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, there is no necessity for my writing unto you. For ye yourselves know perfectly, that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, ‘Peace,' and ‘All things are safe,' then sudden destruction shall come upon them." (1Th_5:1-3) Again, in the second epistle he addresses them with even greater earnestness: "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him, that ye be not soon shaken in mind, nor be troubled, either by spirit, or by word," that is, the word of false prophets, "or by letter," that is, the letter of false apostles, "as if from us, as that the day of the Lord is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means. For that day shall not come, unless indeed there first come a falling away," he means indeed of this present empire, "and that man of sin be revealed," that is to say, Antichrist, "the son of perdition, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or religion; so that he sitteth in the temple of God, affirming that he is God. Remember ye not, that when I was with you, I used to tell you these things? And now ye know what detaineth, that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now hinders must hinder, until he be taken out of the way." (2Th_2:1-7) What obstacle is there but the Roman state, the falling away of which, by being scattered into ten kingdoms, shall introduce Antichrist upon (its own ruins)? "And then shall be revealed the wicked one, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming: even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish." (2Th_2:8- 10) The Writings of Tertullian Part Second - Anti-Marcion VI. On the Resurrection of the Flesh. Chap. XLI. - The Dissolution of Our Tabernacle Consistent with the Resurrection of Our Bodies. Now the privilege of this favour awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh, and who shall, owing to the oppressions of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death,78 which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints; as he writes to the Thessalonians: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we too shall ourselves be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1Th_4:15-17) Origen A.D. 185-254 Origen De Principiis. Book II. Chap. XI. - On Counter Promises. ... Then, if that atmosphere which is between heaven and earth is not devoid of inhabitants, and those of a rational kind, as the apostle says, "Wherein in times past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now worketh in the children of disobedience."67 And again he says, "We shall be caught up in the clouds to meet Christ in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1Th_4:17) ... 6. We are therefore to suppose that the saints will remain there until they recognise the twofold mode of government in those things which are performed in the air.... ... I think, therefore, that all the saints who depart from this life will remain in some place situated on the earth, which holy Scripture calls paradise, as in some place of instruction, and, so to speak, class-room or school of souls, in which they are to be instructed regarding all the things which they had seen on earth, and are to receive also some information respecting things that are to follow in the future, as even when in this life they had obtained in some degree indications of future events, although "through a glass darkly," all of which are revealed more clearly and distinctly to the saints in their proper time and place. Then, in the next place, having either himself misunderstood the sacred Scriptures, or those (interpreters) by whom they were not understood, he proceeds to assert that "it is said by us that there will remain at the time of the visitation which is to come upon the world by the fire of purification, not only those who are then alive, but also those who are long ago dead;" not observing that it is with a secret kind of wisdom that it was said by the apostle of Jesus: "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (cf. 1Co_15:51, 1Co_15:51) Now he ought to have noticed what was the meaning of him who uttered these words, as being one who was by no means dead, who made a distinction between himself and those like him and the dead, and who said afterwards, "The dead shall be raised incorruptible," and "we shall be changed." And as a proof that such was the apostle's meaning in writing those words which I have quoted from the first Epistle to the Corinthians, I will quote also from the first to the Thessalonians, in which Paul, as one who is alive and awake, and different from those who are asleep, speaks as follows: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them who are asleep; for the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God." (cf. 1Th_4:15, 1Th_4:16) Then, again, after this, knowing that there were others dead in Christ besides himself and such as he, he subjoins the words, "The dead in Christ shall rise first; then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air." (cf. 1Th_4:16, 1Th_4:17) Hippolytus A.D. 160-240 The Extant Works and Fragments of Hippolytus. Part II. - Dogmatical and Historical. Treatise on Christ and Antichrist. 66. Concerning the resurrection of the righteous, Paul also speaks thus in writing to the Thessalonians: "We would not have you to be ignorant concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive (and) remain unto the coming of the Lord, shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice and trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we which are alive (and) remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1Th_4:12) Methodius A.D. 250-311 Methodius The Banquet of the Ten Virgins; or, Concerning Chastity. Discourse VI. - Agathe. Chap. IV. - What the Oil in the Lamps Means. For it is to be observed that the word of God says, that after the cry all the virgins arose, that is, that the dead shall be raised after the voice which comes from heaven, as also Paul intimates, (1Th_4:16) that "the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;" that is the tabernacles,82 for they died, being put off by their souls. "Then we which are alive shall be caught up together with them," meaning our souls.83 For we truly who are alive are the souls which, with the bodies, having put them on again, shall go to meet Him in the clouds, bearing our lamps trimmed, not with anything alien and worldly, but like stars radiating the light of prudence and continence, full of ethereal splendour. Methodius From the Discourse on the Resurrection. Part III. II. A Synopsis of Some Apostolic Words from the Same Discourse. VII. Now the passage, "The dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive," St. Methodius thus explains: Those are our bodies; for the souls are we ourselves, who, rising, resume that which is dead from the earth; so that being caught up with them to meet the Lord, we may gloriously celebrate the splendid festival of the resurrection, because we have received our everlasting tabernacles, which shall no longer die nor be dissolved. (The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
One of the most controversial passages in the Bible is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. Currently, these words are being interpreted as describing a secret Rapture at the beginning of a supposed seven-year period of Tribulation, which will then be followed by the visible Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The purpose of this short article is to demonstrate clearly that 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17 is really a description of the Second Coming of our Lord, and that it is at that time that the truly faithful will be "caught up." Paul wrote: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write to you. For yourselves know that the day of the Lord so cometh like a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then cometh sudden destruction upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But you brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thessalonians 4:16 - 5:4). Here Jesus comes down from heaven, true believers are caught up together, and sudden destruction comes upon the lost. All of this takes place on "that day," which is "the day of the Lord." These words occur near the end of Paul's first letter to the early Thessalonian Christians. Paul wrote a second letter to these very same Christians which taught exactly the same thing. In 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Paul wrote to the same group about "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him." (a perfect parallel to 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17). Right before this, in chapter one, Paul wrote about this same gathering. After describing the "persecutions and tribulations" which these early believers where enduring, Paul wrote: "And to you who are troubled, rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day" (2 Thessalonians 1:7 - 10). Careful comparisons reveal that all three passages - 1 Thess. 4:16 - 5:3; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:1 - describe the very same day when Jesus Christ comes down from heaven, when His faithful people are gathered together, and when sudden destruction comes upon the lost. When all three sections are put together, it becomes clear that Jesus is coming with a shout, a voice, a trumpet, with mighty angels, and in flaming fire to catch up true believers and to destroy the lost. Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:16- 5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2:1 all describe the same event - the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Clearly, it is at this time His church will be "caught up." If you aren't sure, just read for yourself in your own Bible. The hour is late. This is no time to be "caught up" in false theories! For more enlightening information, read End Time Delusions: The Rapture, the Antichrist, Israel, and the End of the World, by Steve Wohlberg.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the SINGLE Scripture used to justify THE RAPTURE by false doctrine. Based on Scripture, you cannot make a doctrine on a SINGLE Scripture. The word RAPTURE does not appear in the text of any translation of the Bible, in any language.
harpazo
har-pad'-zo
From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): - catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force). It is a fact that no Christian churches, congregations or fellowships existing prior to 1830 proclaimed a RAPTURE doctrine, and all accepted the Biblical truth that Christians would be on earth during the time of great tribulation. Before 1830, the single RAPTURE Scripture of 1 Thessalonians 4:13- 18 were accepted as resurrection verses.
Origen Against Celsus. Book V. Chap. XVII.
#2. To: Starwind (#1)
#3. To: All (#1)
This is pure ignorance. Rapture is the anglicanized term for the Latin "rapiemur": The word RAPTURE does not appear in the text of any translation of the Bible, in any language.
13 nolumus autem vos ignorare fratres de dormientibus ut non contristemini sicut et ceteri qui spem non habent 14 si enim credimus quod Iesus mortuus est et resurrexit ita et Deus eos qui dormierunt per Iesum adducet cum eo 15 hoc enim vobis dicimus in verbo Domini quia nos qui vivimus qui residui sumus in adventum Domini non praeveniemus eos qui dormierunt 16 quoniam ipse Dominus in iussu et in voce archangeli et in tuba Dei descendet de caelo et mortui qui in Christo sunt resurgent primi 17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus 18 itaque consolamini invicem in verbis istis
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#4. To: Starwind (#3)
Your rapture monkey theology is pure ignorance. This is pure ignorance.
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#5. To: IndieTX (#0)
Oh there's going to be a "Rapture", but not in the way that people think. If there is such a thing, it will be a rapid depopulation of the planet through plague, or war, and when it's over will be labeled the Rapture, and those who survive will be forced to believe the lies, and service Israel as the center of governance for the whole planet. THAT is how it will go down, and that will be the lie that everyone will be forced to believe.
 | What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?. |
#6. To: IndieTX (#0)
I don't go along with the rapture ideology as taught by the christian proponents of this ideology. however, the bible does say that the people will be separated. and the only question is when. some believe in pre-tribulation rapture. These are the people Flintlock calls the rapture monkeys. But those who don't believe in this pre-trib rapture still believe the separation will occur. and it will be a dramatic separation. the rapture verses could merely be a dramatic demonstration of that. Some believe the rapture will occur at the time of the event called the abomination in Daniel, Matthew 24, and Revelation. Some believe the separation will occur at a later time. I have no idea, other than I don't believe the rapture ideology, in that I do not believe this separation will occur before the abomination occurs. I think it's wishful thinking and it leads to idolatry. It is a very narrow interpretation of the whole bible is what I think.
#7. To: Red Jones (#6)
YEp. The so-called rapture is referring to the one and only second coming of Christ. Christians will NOT escape tribulation and persecution. I can prove it with a zillion Bible verses but it does not good. The rapturists will be ripe for satan to lose their faith when it doesn't happen, Left Behind and all of those "pretrib" rapture theories are false doctrines, 
#8. To: IndieTX (#2)
When all three sections are put together, it becomes clear that Jesus is coming with a shout, a voice, a trumpet, with mighty angels, and in flaming fire to catch up true believers and to destroy the lost. Again, 1 Thessalonians 4:16- 5:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 and 2:1 all describe the same event - the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. Clearly, it is at this time His church will be "caught up." If you aren't sure, just read for yourself in your own Bible. A major problem with lumping these passages together as the same event and construing that event as "the Second Coming of Jesus Christ", is that included in the 2nd coming is Christ's return in Rev 19 to defeat the Beast and the kings of the earth and their assembled armies (at Har-Magedon). But prior to that, in Rev 7 is the great multitude in white robes that had come out of the great tribulation. And after that is the opening of the 7th seal and with it the 7 trumpet and 7 bowl judgements leading up to the battle at Har- Magedon (Rev 19) and Christ's return. But in between, the lost alone suffer the judgements and there is no mention of earthly saints. The church was removed (raptured or "caught up") not later than Rev 7. Consequently to construe "all three passages - 1 Thess. 4:16 - 5:3; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:1 - describe the very same day when Jesus Christ comes down from heaven" puts it in conflict with most of Revelation. The removal of the church (as described in 1 Thes 4:16-17) happens not later than Rev 7, and Christ returns in Rev 19. Scripture is unmistakably clear on these points.
Careful comparisons reveal that all three passages - 1 Thess. 4:16 - 5:3; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:1 - describe the very same day when Jesus Christ comes down from heaven, when His faithful people are gathered together, and when sudden destruction comes upon the lost.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#9. To: Starwind (#8)
As you know we disagree on this one. ;P
#10. To: Starwind (#8)
We'll agree to disagree ;-) Got to endtime insights..if you have an open mind..it may free you from the strong delusion..
#11. To: IndieTX (#10)
LOL! Been there, with open eyes as well as an open mind. Perhaps you should actually read what Wohlberg says: He writes: And yet he makes the same mistake there as did you or whomever you quoted above in construing that to be the end at which time Christ returns. From the same link: Yes christian's endure (are even promised) tribulation, but general tribulation (trials and persecution) and the "great tribulation" of Revelation are not the same. Christians throughout history endured tribulation, but only one generation will see the approach of the "great tribulation" in Revelation, and even Wohlberg recognizes they are removed before the Trumpet & Bowl judgements - because we are not appointed to wrath. But Christ still doesn't return until Rev 19, doesn't he. Well after His church was removed, wasn't it.
Got to endtime insights..if you have an open mind..
http://www.endtimeinsights.com/site/v2_3/content/view/45/63/ Revelation 7:14 - God's final people "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." They did not escape it, but endured through it, being purified.
Which is exactly the point I made above - the church is removed not later than Rev 7. Thus the clear biblical evidence reveals that Christians have always gone through "tribulation" and will endure tribulations until the end. Yet we need not fear what man, governments, Satan or devils can do. Jesus Christ has promised, "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the world." Matthew 28: 20.
And again, as I said above Christ's return is in Rev 19. But Wohlberg avoided trying to reconcile his teaching with all of scripture. He ignored Rev 19 and the absence of earthly saints since Rev 7, didn't he.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#12. To: Zipporah, Red Jones (#9)
http:/ /www.christeternalchristianchurch.com/learningactivity70.htm LEARNING ACTIVITY #70 The Rapture Rapture: The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy. An expression of ecstatic feeling. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven. Webster, American Heritage Dictionary Elements of the above definition are rampant today in the Christian church. This understanding holds that Christians will be taken up into the clouds and all non-Christians will be left behind on earth at the second coming of Christ. When this event is discussed in the church, it seems to originate from the following sources in the Scriptures. 1. Matthew 24:31 ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 2. 1 Thessalonians 4:17 __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 3. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 ___________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ Before looking in detail at the three verses above, we should look at some of the background that surrounds the concept of "rapture." The term "rapture" is NOT a scriptural word! The word "rapture" does not appear anywhere in the Scriptures. Rapture is not the translation of any Hebrew or Koine Greek word found in the Scriptures. Rapture does not come from the word of God, but rather from the mind of man. The rapture/removal of the church from the earth is not a prominent historic teaching of the church. Rapture does not appear in the historic creeds of the church. Rapture, although it was heard of from time to time, was relatively unheard of and seldom taught until the early nineteenth century. The concept of a rapture became widespread in the twentieth century. The first known recorded reference to a rapture/removal of the church from the earth appeared in a fourth century AD sermon written by a person known as Pseudo-Ephraem (AD 303–373). The next time we hear of the rapture is from a Calvinist theologian by the name of Dr. John Gill in 1748. It seems that the concept was brought more into the forefront by an American Baptist pastor by the name of Morgan Edwards in 1788 and a Jesuit priest, Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812. Edward Irving, who translated some of Lacunza's writing in 1826 perpetuated and fed fuel to the concept. The theory of a church rapture came into prominence in the church around 1830 by the Plymouth Brethren in Scotland. It is reported that one of the Plymouth Brethren leaders, John Darby (1800–1882), was holding meetings when a fifteen year old Scottish girl (Margret Mac Donald) gave a charismatic utterance that a select group of believers would be removed from the earth before the days of Antichrist, and that other believers would have to live through a period of tribulation on earth. Darby spread this pre-tribulation rapture teaching in Europe and later in the United States. The rapture theory was also given a big boost in America when footnotes on it appeared in the Scofield Bible in 1917. An additional activity that promoted the rapture was the publication of a series of end times charts in a book entitled Dispensational Truth by Clarence Larkin in 1918. From the preceding backdrop we must ask ourselves the question: Does the Bible really teach a physical rapture of the church, or is there a possibility that we have been conditioned to believe this theory by the teaching of some in the church without any real study of the event by our own initiative? Let us now look at the Koine Greek word that appears in passage #2 above which causes people to think that there is to be a rapture. In verse #2 above, the Greek word that is translated "caught up" in the KJV is "harpazo." When we look at the possible meanings for this word we come up with the following: to seize, catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take away (by force), snatch away, transport hastily, to take someone away from among them, seize or claim for oneself. In past Learning Activities we have established a pattern where once we have somewhat defined the possible meaning of a Greek word in the Bible that the next thing we should do is to check the context in which that word is being used in the text. Let's examine the context of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. 4. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 5. What are the last eight words of the verse above speaking about? ____________ ______________________________________________________________________ 6. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 7. What is the main topic of the verse above? _______________________________ The context, then, of 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is resurrection and not some rapture event. Being "caught up" in this verse is to be resurrected. 8. What do the first eight words of the verse in #4 above tell you? ______________ ______________________________________________________________________ 9. Considering the first eight words and the last eight words in 1 Thessalonians 4:16, what conclusions do you come to? ____________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This understanding is also confirmed by Paul. 10. 1 Corinthians 15:23 _________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 11. What conclusion do you come to from the verse in #10 above? ______________ ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ Putting together the understandings of Learning Activities 34, 51 and 52 along with the material in this Learning Activity we can see that those who believed in God during the Old Covenant times and were dead at the time Christ appeared in AD 70 were resurrected (the general resurrection) at the time of Christ's presence. That is what is being said in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. Now let us look at the continuance of the above scripture which you have already recorded in #2 above. In that verse we see that the "we which are alive and remain" is referring to those Christians who were alive at the Parousia who had not yet died and naturally would apply to any person who became a Christian after the Parousia. All who are included in those two categories would have to wait until their biological life was finished here on earth and then they would follow those who had preceded them at at the general resurrection. This is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 15:51 where it is stated that "...We shall not all sleep..." You must keep in mind that when Paul wrote 1 Thessalonians in early AD 50 and 1 Corinthians in the Spring of AD 55 that the Parousia had not yet happened (AD 70)! The things Paul was speaking about were future, but not very far into the future (about 15–20 years away)! However, Paul and those with him were waiting for Christ to appear. This is evident from the Scriptures. The resurrection, therefore, is a continuing event just as the presence of Christ is a continuing event from AD 70 onward to the present time. Christians living when the Parousia began would be taken or removed at the point at which they left their mortal bodies at the instant of their biological death. This is a continuing event which is still taking place today. We need also to go back to the verse that appears in item #10 above, which is 1 Corinthians 15:23. In that verse the phrase appears, "they that are Christ's at his coming." The Greek word that is translated "at" is "en." This actually is an incorrect translation and should be translated, in my opinion, "in." The phrase would then read, "they that are Christ's in his presence," (because the Parousia is the presence of God). When the translators use "at" they are steering our minds to think that the resurrection is at one instant or point in time. The use of "in" helps us to see that resurrection started at the Parousia, but continues because the presence of God continues in the believer even right up to and including the present time. Hence, we can readily see that resurrection is a continuing event for the New Covenant Christian! The above sequencing of "the dead in Christ shall rise first" and "Then we which are alive..." is further proven by the first word of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. That word "then" is translated from the Greek word "epeita" which is only used of sequence. It could actually be translated "afterward" without any violence to the word or the translation. It was during this "afterward" time period that Paul and the early church as well as all believers up to the present time have experienced their resurrection "in the presence" of Christ (Christ in us, our hope of glory!). In the verse of item #10 above, the word "afterward" is the Greek word "epeita." 12. Galatians 1:18 ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 13. In the verse above the word translated "then" is "epeita." How long of a time period does this verse say that "epeita" was? _______________________________ 14. Galatians 2:1 _______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________ 15. The word "then" in the verse above is "epeita." How long of a time period does this verse say that "epeita" was? __________________________________________ Clearly, the word "epeita" does not have to be a discrete instant of time, but can and is a period of time. Finally, what about the verse that started this Learning Activity listed in item #1? We can now see that in that verse Jesus was speaking of His presence at His Parousia to gather His elect who were dead, but who had believed the testimony of God under the Old Covenant as well as those who had believed Jesus when He walked the earth as Jesus of Nazareth. This event happened in AD 70 at the general resurrection. The same is true of the verse found in item #3 at the beginning of this Learning Activity. Paul is referring to the gathering, assembling or being caught away during the resurrection which event would begin at the Parousia in AD 70, at the general resurrection, and continue in the presence of the Lord each time a believer died after that time right on down to our present time. What a wonderful truth and understanding this is for the believer! That is why Paul continued in the next verse by saying to the Thessalonians to "be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither in spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand" which event took place about nineteen years later! Click on Self-Check below to check your answers. Self-Check Return to Learning Activity List.
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.
#13. To: Zoroaster (#12)
.. thanks .. I'll check this out tomorrow.. way past time for me to get to sleep.. .. Nite..
#14. To: IndieTX, Starwind (#10)
So, why are we assuming that believers are going to generally get thrashed by not having the interpretation of the Bible down to a "T"? At it's root, we're all acknowledging the fact that Jesus is our savior, and, at least in both your instances, are extremely well versed in Bible study. Would you actually "Lose your faith" if the "end time" didn't unfold exactly as you supposed it was going to? If you don't get raptured, do you say "Oh, I guess there's no God" or "Well, must have had that wrong, better pray for some guidance and spiritual fortitude"? It seems to me being 100% sure of some particular Biblical interpretation is the surest way to fall victim to pride, no? Personally, I feel that if everyone who professed they were Christian were just "raptured" out of the Tribulation, there would be a whole lot of people who have professed in good times make it in, but who would really waver in the face of adversity. That adversity is (by my understanding) going to include stuff like getting your head chopped unless you deny Christ, or not being able to get critical services unless you take the "Mark" (Attendant holding RFID injector saying "Now Mr. Axenolith, we can take care of that myocardial infarction just as soon as we get you "in the system"... comes to mind). Wheat is supposed to be separated from chaff here isn't it? But now if I assume, or make an allowance for the possibility of, no rapture, I'm hell bound if it really occurs? or is it just a "Whoa, that was easy"!?
it may free you from the strong delusion..
"People who make you believe absurdities will make you commit atrocities..."
#15. To: Axenolith (#14)
Good points Axe.
Would you actually "Lose your faith" if the "end time" didn't unfold exactly as you supposed it was going to? If you don't get raptured, do you say "Oh, I guess there's no God" or "Well, must have had that wrong, better pray for some guidance and spiritual fortitude"? It seems to me being 100% sure of some particular Biblical interpretation is the surest way to fall victim to pride, no?
”We have room but for one flag... We have room but for one language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty, and that is the loyality to the American people.” - Theodore Roosevelt
#16. To: IndieTX (#7)
Im in your camp on this one Indie.
YEp. The so-called rapture is referring to the one and only second coming of Christ. Christians will NOT escape tribulation and persecution.
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
#17. To: IndieTX (#7)
I am in complete agreement with this statement.
Christians will NOT escape tribulation and persecution. I can prove it with a zillion Bible verses but it does not good. The rapturists will be ripe for satan to lose their faith when it doesn't happen...
#18. To: Axenolith, *Bereans* (#14)
Agreed, this issue is one of the unessentials of the faith in which more charity ought to prevail in its discussion. A loss of faith (but not salvation) when trial and tribulation hits is indeed the danger. And pride serves to blind oneself to disconfirming scriptures, leaving one open to being blindsided if prophecy doesn't unfold according to our pet theories and prejudices. The last chance for the lost is to avoid taking the mark during the great tribulation, those few "overcomers" of Rev 15 who refused the mark but then ostensibly are beheaded by the Beast. If they are not taught of the reality of this terrible choice, they will likely take what appears the easier way out at the time and take the mark. If it is taught that the Beast is not real, the mark is not real, all of Revelation is merely symbolic of events complete by AD 70 and that we now live in the "amillennial" age, then many people will be blindsided indeed. Specifically regarding the rapture, whatever the "truth" of the rapture ultimately proves to be, God already knows it and has promised that the church is not appointed to wrath and will be the Bride of the Lamb for all eternity. Whether a christ-professing saint believes in a rapture that is pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, pre-wrath, or post-tribulation, or even is an amilleniallist, these are non-essential, non-salvific doctrines. But what is important generally, is to understand the truth of scripture. To discard the inconvenient passages or to spirtualize them beyond recognition is to undermine the foundation of what they understand and believe. The more often one undermines their understanding they lessen their grasp of the truth, and at some point they may even question their basic belief in Christ. It is a slippery slope. Making sense of the bible seems to me a lot like a jigsaw puzzle. God has given us a picture on the box of what the assembled puzzle looks like, but then leaves it to us to put the pieces together. If we throw a tantrum and refuse altogether then we'll never understand any of the picture. If we smash ill- fitting pieces together we'll get a distorted picture, impossible to complete and with pieces left out. But if we start with corners and boarders and only put pieces together where they match color and fit shape, patiently waiting to fill in holes and gradually building up the picture, our understanding will be correct and ultimately complete. Correctly understanding what the rapture actually is and where does it fit with Matthew, Thessalonians, Corinthians, Revelation, Daniel, Joel, Zechariah, Ezekiel, etc... are pieces of the jigsaw puzzle. If we "force" them to be anything other than what God has said they are, we'll distort our picture and that distortion means other parts of the picture are distorted as well. But if we are meticulous and careful, adhereing to a rule that pieces must actually fit correctly, completely, then the picture God said we'd get gradually emerges and that is incredibly faith-affirming.
So, why are we assuming that believers are going to generally get thrashed by not having the interpretation of the Bible down to a "T"? At it's root, we're all acknowledging the fact that Jesus is our savior, and, at least in both your instances, are extremely well versed in Bible study.
Would you actually "Lose your faith" if the "end time" didn't unfold exactly as you supposed it was going to? If you don't get raptured, do you say "Oh, I guess there's no God" or "Well, must have had that wrong, better pray for some guidance and spiritual fortitude"? It seems to me being 100% sure of some particular Biblical interpretation is the surest way to fall victim to pride, no?
Personally, I feel that if everyone who professed they were Christian were just "raptured" out of the Tribulation, there would be a whole lot of people who have professed in good times make it in, but who would really waver in the face of adversity. That adversity is (by my understanding) going to include stuff like getting your head chopped unless you deny Christ, or not being able to get critical services unless you take the "Mark" (Attendant holding RFID injector saying "Now Mr. Axenolith, we can take care of that myocardial infarction just as soon as we get you "in the system"... comes to mind).
Wheat is supposed to be separated from chaff here isn't it? But now if I assume, or make an allowance for the possibility of, no rapture, I'm hell bound if it really occurs? or is it just a "Whoa, that was easy"!?
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#19. To: Starwind (#18)
Had breakfast yet, rapture monkey? 
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#20. To: IndieTX (#0)
Well.. if you go to Mark chapter 13.. when he was speaking to the
disciples.. re the sign of the end of the age. First one has to
examine..what is meant by the 'end of the age'... Mark 13 explains: Mark 13
1 As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Teacher! What massive stones!
What magnificent buildings!" 2 "Do you see all these great buildings?"
replied Jesus. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be
thrown down." Still speaking to his disciples> 3
As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James,
John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 "Tell us, when will these things happen?
And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?" (Still speaking to his disciples) 5 Jesus said to
them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. AGAIN TO THE
DISCIPLES 14 "When you see the abomination that causes desolation
standing where it should not" (let the reader understand), "then those in Judea
must flee to the mountains! (again speaking to the
disciples!! THEY would see!! Not a future event! 15 A man on the housetop
must not come down, or go in to get anything out of his house. 16 And a man in
the field must not go back to get his clothes. 17 Woe to pregnant women and
nursing mothers in those days! 18 Pray that it may not be in winter. IF this were speaking of a physical 'rapture' then why the
concern?? Jesus was speaking to His followers. IF there were a rapture then
they'd have NO worries they'd be taken away ) 19 For those days will
be a tribulation, the kind that hasn't been since the beginning of the world,
which God created, until now, and never will be again! 20 Unless the Lord cut
short those days, no one would survive. But because of the elect, whom He chose,
He cut short those days. NOW Jesus is talking of the physical
here.. IF hes speaking of a rapture.. and to His followers.. then WHY would they
have to fear surviving?? ) 21 "Then if anyone tells you, 'Look, here
is the Messiah! Look--there!' do not believe it! 22 For false messiahs and false
prophets will rise up and will perform signs and wonders to lead astray, if
possible, the elect. ( IT is NOT possible to fool the
elect..unless they follow the false prophets Jesus warned of! ) 23 And
you must watch! I have told you everything in advance. NOW.. what was
Jesus warning of?? It would be physical ..not spiritual.. it would be in their
lifetime..not a future event.. He warned HIS disciples that they would
experience this??? It was the END OF THE AGE..what age?? The age of the OT the
age of the jewish tradition.. The temple was destroyed in 70 AD.. the
abomination was the sacrifice of a pig on the alter.. the running over of
Jerusalem by the Romans.. foretold by Ezekial in chapter 21..As told by Josephus
#21. To: Axenolith (#14)
The point is not pride Axxenolith. The point is not to ridicule those who believe in some kind of pretribulation rapture. The point is, for those who do believe in one, that they should not lose their faith when it does not happen. Many will....that's the point.
#22. To: Axenolith (#14)
See #16 and #17...my point is clear.
#23. To: Axenolith (#14)
Nobody has stated that or assumed it.
So, why are we assuming that believers are going to generally get thrashed by not having the interpretation of the Bible down to a "T"?
#24. To: IndieTX (#0)
Thank goddess.
There Will Be No Rapture
"I don't hate all Arabs just because a few of them blew up the World Trade Center, so why should they hate all US soldiers just because one shot their father?" asks US Army Cpl. Joshua Hedges, of Warrensburg, Mo., a father of three.
"Saddam had [things] under control and we don't basically," he says. "Iraq was safe under Saddam. You weren't safe from him, but you were safe from your neighbor and you were safe from Syrian people trying to come in and blow things up." - Pvt. Isaac Ussery, of Naples, Fla
#25. To: Starwind, flintlock.a k a stone (#18)
There is no Biblical foundation for a belief in a "rapture". The Bible teaches that Jesus will return to this earth and set up His kingdom and rule for a "thousand years" (however long that is to God): " And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. " (Revelation 20:1-6) The Bible does not teach that He will come and take some away to heaven first and then come back later to rule. The idea of a rapture is said to have originated with a Spanish Catholic Jesuit named Ribera, in 1580 A.D. (See "The Rapture of the Wicked", by Stephen E. Jones and "The Rapture of the Saints", by Duncan McDougall.) During a time of much bloodshed in Europe as Catholics persecuted and killed their opponents, this doctrine said that Christ was going to come and secretly snatch away the Church before a great seven-year tribulation, when the "anti-Christ" would rule the world. This futurist interpretation of the book of Revelation, along with the future coming of the Antichrist, was designed to take the pressure off the Pope, who was universally regarded as being the antichrist by His opponents. The Bible teaches nothing about a "rapture". The word is not found in any standard Bible translation. The belief in a rapture seems to be based mostly on the following scripture: "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. " ( 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, NIV) The Apostle Paul says that "the dead in Christ will rise first" and then those who are "still alive and are left will be will be caught up together with them". Most people who teach the rapture doctrine say that it only happens to people who are alive and that the resurrection of the dead takes place when Jesus actually comes back to the earth. This does not agree with the scenario of Revelation chapters 19 and 20 concerning the return of Jesus to this earth. "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6 , NIV) We are told how Jesus will return to the earth to set up His Kingdom: "After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."" (Acts 1:9-11, NIV) "On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. " ( Zechariah 14:4, NIV) "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. " (1Thessalonians 4:16-17, NIV) Many sincere church folks believe in the "secret rapture," where Jesus apparently quietly comes back to the earth to wisk His chosen away, unbeknownest to the rest of the world. However, as was stated in 1Thes. 4:16- 17, Jesus comes down to the earth with a LOUD command, with the voice of the ARCHANGEL, and the TRUMPET CALL of God. Jesus' return to rule the earth will be anything but secret or quiet!! Just as He left by ascending into the clouds, so will He return and He will stand on the Mount of Olives. It will be at the time of His return that the dead "in Christ" will rise and those alive "in Christ" will rise to meet Him in the air. This is the imagery that has led to the fable of the "rapture", but from the context and other scriptures we know that being with the Lord forever will begin by reigning with Him here on the earth. "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6 , NIV) So even though we may rise to meet Him in the air when He returns to establish His Kingdom, we will return with Him to the Mount of Olives. As to the fate of the world, Peter tells us "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; and in that day the heavens will be rolled up with a great noise, and the substance of the earth will be changed by violent heat, and the world and everything in it will be burned up. Seeing then that all these things are coming to such an end, what sort of persons is it right for you to be, in all holy behaviour and righteousness, looking for and truly desiring the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will come to an end through fire, and the substance of the earth will be changed by the great heat? But having faith in his word, we are looking for a new heaven and a new earth, which will be the resting-place of righteousness." (II Peter 3:10-13 , BBE) The apostle John wrote: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were gone; and there was no more sea. And I saw the holy town, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, like a bride made beautiful for her husband. And there came to my ears a great voice out of the high seat, saying, See, the Tent of God is with men, and he will make his living-place with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them, and be their God. And he will put an end to all their weeping; and there will be no more death, or sorrow, or crying, or pain; for the first things have come to an end. And he who is seated on the high seat said, See, I make all things new. And he said, Put it in the book; for these words are certain and true." ( Revelation 21:1-5) There is nothing in the Bible that teaches the doctrine of the "rapture" of the saints. Written by: Clay Willis (Originally titled Is the 'Rapture of the Saints' Biblical truth . . . or false doctrine?)
#26. To: IndieTX (#25)
I've already shown you the scriptural passage from the Latin Vulgate where the word "rapiemur" is used for what Paul taught in 1Thess 4:16-17 as what in english is termed a "catching up". And you continue to post other authors who argue, ignorantly, there is no biblical basis for a "rapture" or that it was a false teaching invented in the 1800's again ignoring the ante-nicene church fathers I quoted for you who taught the "catching up" exactly as Paul wrote it. Such postings in blatant contradiction of commonly available bibles and early writings does you no credit. The "rapture" is a term coined from the Latin Vulgate and it was taught in the 1st and 2nd centuries, just as Paul taught it. It didn't begin with Darby or Scofield or even in the 1500's. But you already know that. If there was in fact something false in what I'd posted I'm sure you would have addressed any specific errors, but you haven't, have you. If you want to disprove what Darby or Scofield believed, fine, do so, but the intellectually honest approach would be to show in their own words what they believed, compare their beliefs to what scripture says and what history actually records, and then expain how the differences are errors attributable to Darby or Scofield. It has been done, so it is possible. But instead you post authors who construct trivial strawman arguments while avoiding the more difficult reconciliation of all scripture, which includes the great multitude who came out of the great tribulation in Rev 7, and later those who overcame the beast in Rev 15, but Christ doesn't return until Rev 19. Any serious bible teacher would at least acknowledge those passages when attempting to interpret 1Thes 4:16-17. There are no interpretations of which I'm aware that line up perfectly with all scripture, but the best-fit I've read is the Pre-wrath rapture, but it too has some flaws. It is noteworthy you asked me to read a website you recommeded as supporting a position you had posted, and when I pointed out where it agreed with the points I was making, you have gone silent. I can only conclude at this point that you will continue to ignore what scripture actually says in 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Rev 7, 15, & 19, and copy & paste more strawman arguments against some imaginary heretic who isn't here.
There is no Biblical foundation for a belief in a "rapture".
The idea of a rapture is said to have originated with a Spanish Catholic Jesuit named Ribera, in 1580 A.D.
The Bible teaches nothing about a "rapture". The word is not found in any standard Bible translation.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#27. To: Starwind (#26)
I know you
are of the mind that believes that the catching up has to do the rapture prior
to the 1000 years reign.. now have you considered that it could be referring to
the true 'end'.. when its a matter of order...those alive in Christ will be
caught up... those asleep will rise and then the judgement for the
nonbelievers..? There is a series on Revelation online.. would you take the
time to read it if I posted it?
've already shown you the scriptural passage from the Latin
Vulgate where the word "rapiemur" is used for what Paul taught in 1Thess 4:16-17
as what in english is termed a "catching up".
#28. To: Zipporah (#27)
"rapture" = "catching up" and yes, I'm a premillennialist and consistently apply the grammatical-historical hermenuetic to scripture interpretation. Why not post a link, it'll save time. I will look at it.
of the mind that believes that the catching up has to do the rapture prior to the 1000 years reign
There is a series on Revelation online.. would you take the time to read it if I posted it?
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#29. To: Starwind (#28)
Here is the link: http://www.apocalipsis.org/Rev-I-Tape-1.htm I think you'll find it really interesting..
I'm a premillennialist and consistently apply the grammatical-historical hermenuetic to scripture interpretation.
#30. To: Starwind (#28)
Yet you seem so nice otherwise. :) I think all of it is nonsense, so don't see pre/post millenialists as either being more correct. I generally try to stay out of these things because I realise some people do want to have a serious discussion about it, but my religion (bored distant paranoia) required me to pipe up whenever the word "hermeneutic" is used. It strikes me as elitist and therefore Marxist. It seems a word used by those who wish to set themselves up as a priestly class. Generally, I mean, not trying to indict you for anything, in fact you seem quite scornful of the wanna-bees too, just my three cents...
I'm a premillennialist and consistently apply the grammatical-historical hermenuetic to scripture interpretation.
Thanks for Prohibition and the war against drugs. Thanks for a country where nobody's allowed to mind their own business. Thanks for a nation of finks. Yes, thanks for all the memories-- all right let's see your arms!- William S Burroughs
#31. To: Dakmar (#30)
Those labels as well as others like "dispensationalist", "calvinism", "futureist", etc, all carry a great deal of charged baggage with them. I try to avoid using labels and ignoring them, and stick to what the bible actually says (I label myself a "Berean" - one who simply searches scripture to see if what has been said is true compared to the bible), hence my efforts here to focus the argument on what the bible says and what words mean and their derivation, and separate that from someone elses misuse of terminology or labels. Most people I know do not fit neatly into any particular label (even when the label has been honestly defined and not used as a perjorative) and discussing "labels" (rather than the substance of scripture) is fruitless and futile. I used it for myself to affirm what viewpoint I generally ascribe to, but as I noted further up the thread within premillennialism alone there are at least 4 views of where the rapture fits in the sequence of end-time events, none of which fit perfectly. I used the phrase "grammatical-historical hermeneutic" for the same reasons. Simply as a short-cut for others to know generally how I understand the bible. But as with other labels, it can be readily misunderstood and applied inconsistently, thereby rendering it nearly useless in communication, sadly. I didn't see you trying to indict me of anything, well... other than being too serious perhaps :)
I think all of it is nonsense, so don't see pre/post millenialists as either being more correct.
Generally, I mean, not trying to indict you for anything, in fact you seem quite scornful of the wanna-bees too, just my three cents...
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#32. To: IndieTX, All (#0)
Could someone please translate this for me? My brain is too fried today and I have a headache (no I didn't get drunk, I'm not much of a drinker though working on taxes and attending city council meetings has the same effect on me), but I would really like to know what this part means. What does that mean about the Lord had shortened those days? And no flesh shall survive, does that mean those who are good will be turned into spirits? I don't believe in the rapture, I always thought it was a very selfish concept.
Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
#33. To: Zipporah (#29)
Ok, so I downloaded all 12 - It'll take a while to read thru them.
http://www.apocalipsis.org/Rev-I-Tape-1.htm
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#34. To: Starwind (#33)
I know its long.. I have the audio tapes. I wish they were online free.. but alas no.. but I think you'll enjoy them though .. ;)
#35. To: Diana (#32)
Really terrible things will happen, the very worst that has ever been since God created everything (ie for all time)... Unless God had intervened and stopped it all, prevented it from going on as long as it would have by itself... all humankind (and maybe all animal/plant life) would have died. But to keep the people whom God has chosen to be saved (chosen for salvation) from undergoing those really terrible things and even dying, for their sake God intervened and stopped it from continuing.
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
And except that the Lord had shortened those days,
no flesh should be saved (survive);
but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#36. To: Starwind (#35)
Sounds like early iron age people trying to figure out planting schedules.
Thanks for Prohibition and the war against drugs. Thanks for a country where nobody's allowed to mind their own business. Thanks for a nation of finks. Yes, thanks for all the memories-- all right let's see your arms!- William S Burroughs
#37. To: Starwind (#35)
Of course I disagree ;P
#38. To: Dakmar (#36)
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
Sounds like early iron age people trying to figure out planting schedules.
#39. To: Zipporah (#37)
Oh I assumed we would disagree on the "when", but I didn't say when. I merely said what. I am a bit surprised you seem to disagree on the "what" as well. Regardless, why not post your interpretation for Diana? I'll leave it be.
Of course I disagree ;P
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#40. To: Flintlock (#19)
I could post an entire dissertaion on WHY there will be NO rapture complete with Bible verses to back it up...my PAstor could do same thing more effectively...and certain folks would still continue to believe in something that is NOT there..therefore, I give up. I wonder how many will lose their faith when the 4 angels holding back the winds [every conveivable evil and calamity and plague and some that aren't conceivable] in REV13 are told to let 'er rip...and the rapturists are still here when that SHTF? And if we're all raptured then, I wonder why God tells the angels not to let loose the 4 winds until my people are sealed...I thought we were supposed to be gone? Oh well...LOL. 
19 APR 1993 13th anniversary coming up. NEVER FORGET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#41. To: Starwind (#39)
Regardless, why not post your interpretation for Diana? I'll leave it be. I was teasing a bit.. no harm meant..
Oh I assumed we would disagree on the "when", but I didn't say when. I merely said what. I am a bit surprised you seem to disagree on the "what" as well.
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