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Title: There Will Be No Rapture!"
Source:
Demonbuster.com
URL Source: http://www.demonbuster.com/rapture.html
Published: Mar 30, 2006
Author: Staff
Post Date: 2006-03-30 21:35:16 by IndieTX
Keywords: RAPTURE, TRIBULATION
Views: 980
Comments: 62
Some say that THE RAPTURE was mentioned by this one or that one way back when. None of that matters since people still have their own THEORIES. What does matter is what it says in the Bible. Sorry, but NO RAPTURE in the Bible. Find anyone who has never heard of THE RAPTURE. Show them all the Scriptures you were taught meaning RAPTURE. With no comments from you, ask them what they think the Scriptures mean. You could do this on a Believer or a non Believer. I doubt they will come up with your RAPTURE THEORY. The purpose of this page is to make sure you are not one of the Christians involved in THE GREAT FALLING AWAY. Let me first say that JESUS IS COMING AGAIN. He just is NOT taking us out of this world while singing, "I'll fly away". I use to believe in THE RAPTURE. Then I found Chapter 17 of John. JESUS is in the garden just before his death praying for US - YOU AND ME. John 17:15 (JESUS praying to The Father) "I pray NOT that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should keep them from evil." Verse 20 - Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. (That is you and me.) If JESUS asked NOT to take us OUT, we're NOT going! The Rapture theory has nothing to do with your Salvation. Just make sure you are ready to meet Jesus, no matter how or when you die, or when Jesus returns to the earth to set up His Kingdom. Religious people are always arguing about WHEN it will happen - PRE - MID - POST tribulation. Believing NO RAPTURE solves all those arguments. Some people prefer NOT to call it THE RAPTURE, but have other names for it. You hear people quoting Scripture when they say COME QUICKLY, LORD JESUS. They are looking for an ESCAPE from the things of this world. When things REALLY get bad, and there is NO RAPTURE, many will turn their back on Jesus because they were not RESCUED. When this happens, they cancel their ticket to Heaven. This is exactly what the devil wanted, when he started the teaching of THE RAPTURE. I was told that when China had the revolution, many Chinese Believers turned their back on the Lord because they were expecting to be RAPTURED out of their situation. "RAPTURE! PROPHECY OR HERESY" is a book by Colonel H. Speed Wilson (Daring Publisher). Since 1989, he has offered a $10,000 reward to anyone who can prove scripturally that the Saints are taken OUT OF THE WORLD. The following is taken from the back cover of the book. "The Rapture theology has been one of the most controversial topics among Christians since the early 1800s to the present. The most commonly addressed questions in the popular books, pamphlets and sermons is WHEN will the Rapture occur? WILL the Rapture be pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, or post-tribulation? And...WILL it be a secret and silent removal of Christians or a glorious return of JESUS? As an astute Bible Scholar, Speed Wilson now raises a question in his new thought-provoking book he feels is the most important and even critical question of all, IS THERE REALLY TO BE A RAPTURE? Topics in Speed's book include Rapture Support Arguments, Origin of Rapture, What May Happen, What We Must Do, Consequences of the Rapture Doctrine, and, finally, Your $10,000 Challenge! Speed is offering this $10,000 reward to anyone who can, after reading his book, reference any scriptures that clearly state that the Saints (Holy Ones, Righteous, Church, Body, Bride, Wheat...etc.) Are taken out of the world! Details as to how to receive this reward are presented in the book. The publisher, Daring Books, will give a $1,000 reward to the bookstore that sells the book to the person who qualifies for the $10,000 reward!" FROM WARRIOR MINISTRIES - ENDING "END-TIME" CONFUSION Scripture tells us "God is not the author of confusion" (I Cor. 14:33). Yet when it comes to proper end-time direction, our churches almost universally exude the spirit of confusion. Hardened neck pastors of churches refusing to acknowledge this travesty against the Saints and correct it, should be refused the support of the Saints. Someone wise once well said: "If we don't know where we are going, we probably won't get there". So it is today in the absence of practical common sense teaching for Saints to guide themselves and future Christians toward the second coming of our Lord JESUS. As a starting point where satan apparently introduced deception to weaken and confuse the churches, we could look to a Jesuit priest named Emmanuel Lacunza. Lacunza's 1790 book titled, "The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty", was in the early 1800's published in many languages. Rev. Edward Irving, a presbyter of the Church of Scotland, translated the book to English and it was published in 1826. The error gathered momentum when in 1830 a fifteen year old Scottish young lady named Margaret MacDonald reportedly had a PROPHETIC END-TIME VISION which gained credibility and spread. Another suspect teacher of note is J.N. Darby of England. A student of Darby was Cyrus I. Scofield (1843-1921), a successful American lawyer. Scofield published widely distributed Bible Reference Notes in 1909. From these beginnings the errors have become widely accepted as "gospel". Certainly it is the will of the Lord JESUS that we all come to a peace and sensible practical directional unity of eschatology for us and our posterity. May God speedily give us this victory. [This is where the modern Rapture theory started] Now for some Scriptures and more good stuff that also came from Speed Wilson's book: Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. THEY and THEM are clearly the WICKED (ungodly unbelievers). Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left. Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left. Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all. ...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left. Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left. RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you. Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER. 2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED). Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity.... Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again. Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire... Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth. I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape. Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days. How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE? ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1 Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it. Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy. Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED; Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth... Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land... Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross. Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King... Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED). Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY. Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it. Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up... Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER. Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth. Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth). Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more. Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place. The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO. Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS. Was Job raptured out of his time of tribulation (testing)? NO Was Joseph raptured out of the pit or prison? NO Was Daniel raptured out of the lion's den? NO Was King David raptured out of all his tribulation? NO Exodus 7:18 through 12:30 records the Israelites were IN Egypt for all ten plagues of God's wrath. Was Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego raptured out of the firery furnace? NO Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO Was Paul raptured out of all his tribulations (2 Corithians 11:23-27)? NO NO RAPTURE, JUST MUCH TRIBULATION 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the SINGLE Scripture used to justify THE RAPTURE by false doctrine. Based on Scripture, you cannot make a doctrine on a SINGLE Scripture. The word RAPTURE does not appear in the text of any translation of the Bible, in any language. "CAUGHT UP" are the words used by many when referring to THE RAPTURE. King James must have missed this one because the words "CAUGHT UP" are not found in the Young's Concordance for 1 Thessalonians 4:17. However, "CATCH" is listed under that Scripture. That word appears 13 times, and is translated six different ways: catch, catch away, catch (caught) up, pluck and take by force. In the 12 other Scriptures, it has nothing to do with the physical removal of living people from the earth/world to heaven. Also in THE RAPTURE CHAPTER, 1 Thessalonians 4:17, is to meet the lord IN THE AIR. According to the Strong's and Young's concordance, "AIR" is the Greek word "AER", as used in the following Scriptures: Acts 22:23, ...and threw dust into the air (AER). 1 Corinthians 9:26, ...not as one who beateth the air (AER). 1 Corinthians 14:9, ...for ye shall speak in the air (AER). Another Greek word which is also translated, AIR, in the KJV of the Bible is OURANOS. That translation is found in Matthew 6:26, 8:20, 13:32; Mark 4:4 and 32; Luke 8:5, 9:58, 13:19 and Acts 10:12, 11:6. Each one of these Scriptures refer to "the birds/fowls of the air (ouranos). Grab a handful of dust and throw it into the air. That's about where you would be hanging IF there were to be a RAPTURE, based on the recorded meaning of the word AIR. Next we have the phrase "with them in the CLOUDS". If you look outside, you can see the clouds WAY UP there. BUT, is that what the Scripture means? No. In the following Scriptures, the CLOUD came DOWN to earth: Matthew 17:5; Mark 9:7; Luke 9:34 In 1Corinthians 10:1,2, they were UNDER the CLOUD, and were baptized IN the CLOUD. Hebrews 11:36 through 12:2 talks about SO GREAT A CLOUD OF WITNESSES. With all of the above, let us read 1 Thessalonians 4, beginning at verse 13, with a much more accurate and clearer understanding of the words and terms used therein. For clarity, the following Scripture quotes from 1 Thessalonians are in capital letters. "BUT I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP (this Scripture is primarily about the departed/dead saints in Christ) THAT YE SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS WHICH HAVE NO HOPE (the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection). FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN (we all believe that), EVEN SO (in like manner) THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP (are dead) IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM (Jesus). FOR THIS WE SAY UNTO YOU BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, THAT WE (Biblical believers) WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN (on earth) UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD SHALL NOT PREVENT (precede) (have any advantage over) THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP. FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN (Acts 1:11, Jesus went directly from earth to Heaven and shall return "in like manner" directly from Heaven to earth. No rapture back to heaven for a later third coming!) WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND THE TRUMP(et) OF GOD: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE (Greek word, anistemi: to set up or be resurrected) FIRST: THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE ("We shall not all die, but shall be changed/transformed/transfigured" (1 Cor 15:51) AND REMAIN (on the earth in the "aer") SHALL BE CAUGHT UP (made one) (harpazo) TOGETHER (at the same time) WITH THEM (the dead in Christ) IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR (the "great cloud of witnesses" that will "be made perfect" with us on earth when Jesus brings their spirits "with Him" to be united with their bodies resurrected out of the ground "first" into the air [aer] with us in the air, on the surface of the earth): AND SO SHALL WE (for) EVER BE WITH THE LORD (in the air [aer] here ON earth forever). WHEREFORE, COMFORT (reassure) ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS." (Notice, the Lord "descended from Heaven" before we are "caught up" to Him; just as the "New Jerusalem" came down to dwell with us--Rev. 21:2.) It is a fact that no Christian churches, congregations or fellowships existing prior to 1830 proclaimed a RAPTURE doctrine, and all accepted the Biblical truth that Christians would be on earth during the time of great tribulation. Before 1830, the single RAPTURE Scripture of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 were accepted as resurrection verses. The SCOFIELD Bible and the DAKE'S Bible were the first to carry FOOTNOTES about THE RAPTURE. It's all (BAD) history from there! REMEMBER THAT THE MODERN RAPTURE THEORY WAS STARTED BY A 15 YEAR OLD CATHOLIC GIRL IN ENGLAND BY THE NAME OF MARGARET MAC DONALD IN 1830 WHO HAD A VISION. The following is quoted from a book by Dave MacPherson (historian) called THE RAPTURE PLOT: "What generally hasn't been known about Margaret is the extent to which she was open to the world of the 'occult' (definition: 'secret or hidden knowledge of supernatural phenomena'). ...Take the word 'rapture'. Many still don't know that this word (body-lifting sense) had been used for CENTURIES by medieval mystics to describe their own levitation a few inches (or even several feet) above the floor or ground. Such 'raptures' were often condemned by Catholic leaders... And Robert Norton, the pretrib origin chronicler, revealed the following about Margaret and one of her friends: 'I have seen both her and Miss Margaret MacDonald stand like statues scarcely touching the ground, evidently supernaturally'." (pp. 51-52). Here is an article that came from http://world-ministries.org: Left Behind Movie Misleads Believers Gary North - http://LewRockwell.com - 1/10/2001 Christians are being led into false doctrine by the best-selling book series "Left Behind" soon to be in a major movie of the same name. Jesus taught us in the parable of the wheat and tares that believers and nonbelievers would live together until the end of the world. "Only at the end of time will the corporate separation take place: sheep and goats, wheat and tares, saved and lost, covenant-keepers and covenant-breakers. Until then, the separation remains confessional and institutional, not physical and corporate. "Until 1830, the Christian church universally taught this doctrine of temporal non-separation. In 1830, a tiny English Protestant sect known as the Irvingites proclaimed a new doctrine. The church will escape the prophesied future tribulation by being removed from history. The church will be pulled into heaven at an event that is today referred to as 'the Rapture' ... "The Irvingites' idea was immediately adopted by John Nelson Darby, a leader of the small British sect known as the Plymouth Brethren. Darby brought this doctrine to the United States. Decades later, in the 1880's, it finally began to spread among American fundamentalists, especially those who were upset by the appearance of what soon became known as the Social Gospel, which identified the kingdom of God with the Progressive movement. The Social Gospel's defenders secularized the older postmillennialism of the Puritans and American Presbyterians, concluding that the interventionist State will progressively manifest the political aspect of the kingdom of God in history. "Fundamentalists rejected such a notion, but offered in its place the Irving-Darby doctrine: the pre-tribulational, pre-millennial Rapture. The Rapture will take place 1,007 years prior to the final judgment, seven years prior to the bodily return of Jesus to set up an international Christian bureaucracy to run the world. This thousand-year era will be known as the millennial kingdom of God. Jesus will therefore return pre-millennially. "What was new in this premillennial outline was the doctrine that Christ will remove the church from the world 3.5 years prior to the great tribulation period, which will last for another 3.5 years. Seven years after the Rapture, He will return to set up His earthly kingdom. Traditional premillennialism, which has a long history, had previously taught that Christ will return after the great tribulation of His church. There will be no period in history where there is not continuity for His church. So, Jesus will come secretly to rapture his church into heaven. Then the antichrist will set up an international government to rule the world. " This false teaching of the rapture has caused Christians to think they need do nothing. Teaching that the rapture can occur any day is false, because it causes Christians to think that we are soon to leave earth and do not need to be active in Spiritual Warfare. But God needs us to be salt, and speak truth, and make a difference in the world today. FOR ANOTHER INDEPTH STUDY ON NO RAPTURE, COPY AND PASTE http://www.ricter.com/wordline/rapture.htm The following information came from an email: "Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation. Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century. He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model. This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment: "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." The sermon describes the events of the last days, beginning with the rapture, the Great Tribulation of 3 1/2 years duration under the Antichrist's rule, followed by the Second Coming of Christ. In Ephraem's book The Book of the Cave of Treasures, written about 370 A.D., he expressed his belief that the 69th week of Daniel ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah. This, of course, doesn't prove that the pre-tribulation view is correct; only that it was held (by some) in the early centuries and was not unique to the revival of the 1830's. It simply documents that this view was held by a remnant of the faithful from the beginning until today." Remember, THE RAPTURE is a THEORY, a bad one. Poster Comment: For more proof the rapture theory is a false teaching, from a different perspective and better Biblical proof than this article offers, visit the website www.endtimeinsights.com. Thessalonians "rapture verse" is clearly talking about the ONE Second Coming of Christ.
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#23. To: Axenolith (#14)
Nobody has stated that or assumed it.
So, why are we assuming that believers are going to generally get thrashed by not having the interpretation of the Bible down to a "T"?
#24. To: IndieTX (#0)
Thank goddess.
There Will Be No Rapture
"I don't hate all Arabs just because a few of them blew up the World Trade Center, so why should they hate all US soldiers just because one shot their father?" asks US Army Cpl. Joshua Hedges, of Warrensburg, Mo., a father of three.
"Saddam had [things] under control and we don't basically," he says. "Iraq was safe under Saddam. You weren't safe from him, but you were safe from your neighbor and you were safe from Syrian people trying to come in and blow things up." - Pvt. Isaac Ussery, of Naples, Fla
#25. To: Starwind, flintlock.a k a stone (#18)
There is no Biblical foundation for a belief in a "rapture". The Bible teaches that Jesus will return to this earth and set up His kingdom and rule for a "thousand years" (however long that is to God): " And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. " (Revelation 20:1-6) The Bible does not teach that He will come and take some away to heaven first and then come back later to rule. The idea of a rapture is said to have originated with a Spanish Catholic Jesuit named Ribera, in 1580 A.D. (See "The Rapture of the Wicked", by Stephen E. Jones and "The Rapture of the Saints", by Duncan McDougall.) During a time of much bloodshed in Europe as Catholics persecuted and killed their opponents, this doctrine said that Christ was going to come and secretly snatch away the Church before a great seven-year tribulation, when the "anti-Christ" would rule the world. This futurist interpretation of the book of Revelation, along with the future coming of the Antichrist, was designed to take the pressure off the Pope, who was universally regarded as being the antichrist by His opponents. The Bible teaches nothing about a "rapture". The word is not found in any standard Bible translation. The belief in a rapture seems to be based mostly on the following scripture: "According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. " ( 1Thessalonians 4:15-17, NIV) The Apostle Paul says that "the dead in Christ will rise first" and then those who are "still alive and are left will be will be caught up together with them". Most people who teach the rapture doctrine say that it only happens to people who are alive and that the resurrection of the dead takes place when Jesus actually comes back to the earth. This does not agree with the scenario of Revelation chapters 19 and 20 concerning the return of Jesus to this earth. "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4-6 , NIV) We are told how Jesus will return to the earth to set up His Kingdom: "After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."" (Acts 1:9-11, NIV) "On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. " ( Zechariah 14:4, NIV) "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. " (1Thessalonians 4:16-17, NIV) Many sincere church folks believe in the "secret rapture," where Jesus apparently quietly comes back to the earth to wisk His chosen away, unbeknownest to the rest of the world. However, as was stated in 1Thes. 4:16- 17, Jesus comes down to the earth with a LOUD command, with the voice of the ARCHANGEL, and the TRUMPET CALL of God. Jesus' return to rule the earth will be anything but secret or quiet!! Just as He left by ascending into the clouds, so will He return and He will stand on the Mount of Olives. It will be at the time of His return that the dead "in Christ" will rise and those alive "in Christ" will rise to meet Him in the air. This is the imagery that has led to the fable of the "rapture", but from the context and other scriptures we know that being with the Lord forever will begin by reigning with Him here on the earth. "Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6 , NIV) So even though we may rise to meet Him in the air when He returns to establish His Kingdom, we will return with Him to the Mount of Olives. As to the fate of the world, Peter tells us "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief; and in that day the heavens will be rolled up with a great noise, and the substance of the earth will be changed by violent heat, and the world and everything in it will be burned up. Seeing then that all these things are coming to such an end, what sort of persons is it right for you to be, in all holy behaviour and righteousness, looking for and truly desiring the coming of the day of God, when the heavens will come to an end through fire, and the substance of the earth will be changed by the great heat? But having faith in his word, we are looking for a new heaven and a new earth, which will be the resting-place of righteousness." (II Peter 3:10-13 , BBE) The apostle John wrote: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were gone; and there was no more sea. And I saw the holy town, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, like a bride made beautiful for her husband. And there came to my ears a great voice out of the high seat, saying, See, the Tent of God is with men, and he will make his living-place with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them, and be their God. And he will put an end to all their weeping; and there will be no more death, or sorrow, or crying, or pain; for the first things have come to an end. And he who is seated on the high seat said, See, I make all things new. And he said, Put it in the book; for these words are certain and true." ( Revelation 21:1-5) There is nothing in the Bible that teaches the doctrine of the "rapture" of the saints. Written by: Clay Willis (Originally titled Is the 'Rapture of the Saints' Biblical truth . . . or false doctrine?)
#26. To: IndieTX (#25)
I've already shown you the scriptural passage from the Latin Vulgate where the word "rapiemur" is used for what Paul taught in 1Thess 4:16-17 as what in english is termed a "catching up". And you continue to post other authors who argue, ignorantly, there is no biblical basis for a "rapture" or that it was a false teaching invented in the 1800's again ignoring the ante-nicene church fathers I quoted for you who taught the "catching up" exactly as Paul wrote it. Such postings in blatant contradiction of commonly available bibles and early writings does you no credit. The "rapture" is a term coined from the Latin Vulgate and it was taught in the 1st and 2nd centuries, just as Paul taught it. It didn't begin with Darby or Scofield or even in the 1500's. But you already know that. If there was in fact something false in what I'd posted I'm sure you would have addressed any specific errors, but you haven't, have you. If you want to disprove what Darby or Scofield believed, fine, do so, but the intellectually honest approach would be to show in their own words what they believed, compare their beliefs to what scripture says and what history actually records, and then expain how the differences are errors attributable to Darby or Scofield. It has been done, so it is possible. But instead you post authors who construct trivial strawman arguments while avoiding the more difficult reconciliation of all scripture, which includes the great multitude who came out of the great tribulation in Rev 7, and later those who overcame the beast in Rev 15, but Christ doesn't return until Rev 19. Any serious bible teacher would at least acknowledge those passages when attempting to interpret 1Thes 4:16-17. There are no interpretations of which I'm aware that line up perfectly with all scripture, but the best-fit I've read is the Pre-wrath rapture, but it too has some flaws. It is noteworthy you asked me to read a website you recommeded as supporting a position you had posted, and when I pointed out where it agreed with the points I was making, you have gone silent. I can only conclude at this point that you will continue to ignore what scripture actually says in 1 Thess 4:16-17 and Rev 7, 15, & 19, and copy & paste more strawman arguments against some imaginary heretic who isn't here.
There is no Biblical foundation for a belief in a "rapture".
The idea of a rapture is said to have originated with a Spanish Catholic Jesuit named Ribera, in 1580 A.D.
The Bible teaches nothing about a "rapture". The word is not found in any standard Bible translation.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#27. To: Starwind (#26)
I know you
are of the mind that believes that the catching up has to do the rapture prior
to the 1000 years reign.. now have you considered that it could be referring to
the true 'end'.. when its a matter of order...those alive in Christ will be
caught up... those asleep will rise and then the judgement for the
nonbelievers..? There is a series on Revelation online.. would you take the
time to read it if I posted it?
've already shown you the scriptural passage from the Latin
Vulgate where the word "rapiemur" is used for what Paul taught in 1Thess 4:16-17
as what in english is termed a "catching up".
#28. To: Zipporah (#27)
"rapture" = "catching up" and yes, I'm a premillennialist and consistently apply the grammatical-historical hermenuetic to scripture interpretation. Why not post a link, it'll save time. I will look at it.
of the mind that believes that the catching up has to do the rapture prior to the 1000 years reign
There is a series on Revelation online.. would you take the time to read it if I posted it?
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#29. To: Starwind (#28)
Here is the link: http://www.apocalipsis.org/Rev-I-Tape-1.htm I think you'll find it really interesting..
I'm a premillennialist and consistently apply the grammatical-historical hermenuetic to scripture interpretation.
#30. To: Starwind (#28)
Yet you seem so nice otherwise. :) I think all of it is nonsense, so don't see pre/post millenialists as either being more correct. I generally try to stay out of these things because I realise some people do want to have a serious discussion about it, but my religion (bored distant paranoia) required me to pipe up whenever the word "hermeneutic" is used. It strikes me as elitist and therefore Marxist. It seems a word used by those who wish to set themselves up as a priestly class. Generally, I mean, not trying to indict you for anything, in fact you seem quite scornful of the wanna-bees too, just my three cents...
I'm a premillennialist and consistently apply the grammatical-historical hermenuetic to scripture interpretation.
Thanks for Prohibition and the war against drugs. Thanks for a country where nobody's allowed to mind their own business. Thanks for a nation of finks. Yes, thanks for all the memories-- all right let's see your arms!- William S Burroughs
#31. To: Dakmar (#30)
Those labels as well as others like "dispensationalist", "calvinism", "futureist", etc, all carry a great deal of charged baggage with them. I try to avoid using labels and ignoring them, and stick to what the bible actually says (I label myself a "Berean" - one who simply searches scripture to see if what has been said is true compared to the bible), hence my efforts here to focus the argument on what the bible says and what words mean and their derivation, and separate that from someone elses misuse of terminology or labels. Most people I know do not fit neatly into any particular label (even when the label has been honestly defined and not used as a perjorative) and discussing "labels" (rather than the substance of scripture) is fruitless and futile. I used it for myself to affirm what viewpoint I generally ascribe to, but as I noted further up the thread within premillennialism alone there are at least 4 views of where the rapture fits in the sequence of end-time events, none of which fit perfectly. I used the phrase "grammatical-historical hermeneutic" for the same reasons. Simply as a short-cut for others to know generally how I understand the bible. But as with other labels, it can be readily misunderstood and applied inconsistently, thereby rendering it nearly useless in communication, sadly. I didn't see you trying to indict me of anything, well... other than being too serious perhaps :)
I think all of it is nonsense, so don't see pre/post millenialists as either being more correct.
Generally, I mean, not trying to indict you for anything, in fact you seem quite scornful of the wanna-bees too, just my three cents...
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#32. To: IndieTX, All (#0)
Could someone please translate this for me? My brain is too fried today and I have a headache (no I didn't get drunk, I'm not much of a drinker though working on taxes and attending city council meetings has the same effect on me), but I would really like to know what this part means. What does that mean about the Lord had shortened those days? And no flesh shall survive, does that mean those who are good will be turned into spirits? I don't believe in the rapture, I always thought it was a very selfish concept.
Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
#33. To: Zipporah (#29)
Ok, so I downloaded all 12 - It'll take a while to read thru them.
http://www.apocalipsis.org/Rev-I-Tape-1.htm
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#34. To: Starwind (#33)
I know its long.. I have the audio tapes. I wish they were online free.. but alas no.. but I think you'll enjoy them though .. ;)
#35. To: Diana (#32)
Really terrible things will happen, the very worst that has ever been since God created everything (ie for all time)... Unless God had intervened and stopped it all, prevented it from going on as long as it would have by itself... all humankind (and maybe all animal/plant life) would have died. But to keep the people whom God has chosen to be saved (chosen for salvation) from undergoing those really terrible things and even dying, for their sake God intervened and stopped it from continuing.
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
And except that the Lord had shortened those days,
no flesh should be saved (survive);
but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#36. To: Starwind (#35)
Sounds like early iron age people trying to figure out planting schedules.
Thanks for Prohibition and the war against drugs. Thanks for a country where nobody's allowed to mind their own business. Thanks for a nation of finks. Yes, thanks for all the memories-- all right let's see your arms!- William S Burroughs
#37. To: Starwind (#35)
Of course I disagree ;P
#38. To: Dakmar (#36)
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
Sounds like early iron age people trying to figure out planting schedules.
#39. To: Zipporah (#37)
Oh I assumed we would disagree on the "when", but I didn't say when. I merely said what. I am a bit surprised you seem to disagree on the "what" as well. Regardless, why not post your interpretation for Diana? I'll leave it be.
Of course I disagree ;P
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#40. To: Flintlock (#19)
I could post an entire dissertaion on WHY there will be NO rapture complete with Bible verses to back it up...my PAstor could do same thing more effectively...and certain folks would still continue to believe in something that is NOT there..therefore, I give up. I wonder how many will lose their faith when the 4 angels holding back the winds [every conveivable evil and calamity and plague and some that aren't conceivable] in REV13 are told to let 'er rip...and the rapturists are still here when that SHTF? And if we're all raptured then, I wonder why God tells the angels not to let loose the 4 winds until my people are sealed...I thought we were supposed to be gone? Oh well...LOL. 
19 APR 1993 13th anniversary coming up. NEVER FORGET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
#41. To: Starwind (#39)
Regardless, why not post your interpretation for Diana? I'll leave it be. I was teasing a bit.. no harm meant..
Oh I assumed we would disagree on the "when", but I didn't say when. I merely said what. I am a bit surprised you seem to disagree on the "what" as well.
#42. To: IndieTX (#2)
What about people who live in obscure tribes like those in the Amazon? Or the Ik people of Uganda? Or the pygmies?
#43. To: IndieTX (#2)
Sorry I was responding to this, in wondering about obscure and remote tribes.
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from glory of his power;
#44. To: TommyTheMadArtist, IndieTX, Starwind, Red Jones (#5)
I believe when the end times come, those left on earth will be transformed into more spiritual beings, more spirit and less physical. That's my take on it, and that is why the lion will lay down with the lamb and such, because they will no longer have any reason to attack and kill to eat. I believe everything will be transformed and sin of all kinds will vanish. I know, I'm weird, but it's what I believe.
#45. To: Diana (#44)
You've been around self sufficient people too long. There really are hordes begging for bread and circuses.
Thanks for Prohibition and the war against drugs. Thanks for a country where nobody's allowed to mind their own business. Thanks for a nation of finks. Yes, thanks for all the memories-- all right let's see your arms!- William S Burroughs
#46. To: Diana (#43)
Diana when I went through Lutheran confirmation LCMS, I asked this question of the Pastor. His answer was amazing. Think of 2 circles intersecting. One circle contains "believers", one circle contains "non believers" babies, those never exposed to the Gospel, etc....the intersection of those circles will go to heaven! In other words...many "Christians" won't make it and many "non Christians" for God's reasons, will make it...God can take whoever HE wants to, because only HE can read hearts; we can not. Just telling you what he said... :-)))
#47. To: Dakmar (#45)
Circuses?? LOL!
You've been around self sufficient people too long. There really are hordes begging for bread and circuses.
#48. To: Dakmar (#45)
Love your tag. I need to go check my plant sprouts and be sure they aren't too close to the lamps... ;-)
Thanks for Prohibition and the war against drugs. Thanks for a country where nobody's allowed to mind their own business. Thanks for a nation of finks
#49. To: Dakmar (#30)
I enjoy reading these threads because I'm curious as to what people believe, and a lot of the posters here have lots of biblical knowledge and I always come away learning something. People tend to get emotional over these issues, I don't, I just want to know why we are here, what the truth is, and what God is really all about. I have my theories but I like to know what others think.
I think all of it is nonsense, so don't see pre/post millenialists as either being more correct. I generally try to stay out of these things because I realise some people do want to have a serious discussion about it, but my religion (bored distant paranoia) required me to pipe up whenever the word "hermeneutic" is used.
#50. To: Diana (#49)
its up to us to put everything into perspective
People tend to get emotional over these issues
Thanks for Prohibition and the war against drugs. Thanks for a country where nobody's allowed to mind their own business. Thanks for a nation of finks. Yes, thanks for all the memories-- all right let's see your arms!- William S Burroughs
#51. To: Starwind (#35)
Really terrible things will happen, the very worst that has ever been since God created everything (ie for all time)... And except that the Lord had shortened those days, Unless God had intervened and stopped it all, prevented it from going on as long as it would have by itself... no flesh should be saved (survive); all humankind (and maybe all animal/plant life) would have died. but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days. But to keep the people whom God has chosen to be saved (chosen for salvation) from undergoing those really terrible things and even dying, for their sake God intervened and stopped it from continuing. Thank you for explaining it, I was really trying to figure it out, makes sense now.
For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
#52. To: IndieTX (#46)
...God can take whoever HE wants to, because only HE can read hearts I like that explanation.
the intersection of those circles will go to heaven!
#53. To: IndieTX (#40)
bump 19 APR 1993 13th anniversary coming up. NEVER FORGET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#54. To: IndieTX (#48)
laughing..
I need to go check my plant sprouts and be sure they aren't too close to the lamps... ;-)
A nation blind to their disgrace...
#55. To: Diana (#49)
People tend to get emotional over these issues, I don't, I just want to know why we are here, what the truth is, and what God is really all about. I have my theories but I like to know what others think. I agree.
I enjoy reading these threads because I'm curious as to what people believe, and a lot of the posters here have lots of biblical knowledge and I always come away learning something.
A nation blind to their disgrace...
#56. To: IndieTX (#0)
With all of the above, let us read 1 Thessalonians 4, beginning at verse 13, with a much more accurate and clearer understanding of the words and terms used therein. For clarity, the following Scripture quotes from 1 Thessalonians are in capital letters. "BUT I WOULD NOT HAVE YOU IGNORANT, BRETHREN, CONCERNING THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP (this Scripture is primarily about the departed/dead saints in Christ) THAT YE SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS WHICH HAVE NO HOPE (the Sadducees did not believe in a resurrection). FOR IF WE BELIEVE THAT JESUS DIED AND ROSE AGAIN (we all believe that), EVEN SO (in like manner) THEM ALSO WHICH SLEEP (are dead) IN JESUS WILL GOD BRING WITH HIM (Jesus). FOR THIS WE SAY UNTO YOU BY THE WORD OF THE LORD, THAT WE (Biblical believers) WHO ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN (on earth) UNTO THE COMING OF THE LORD SHALL NOT PREVENT (precede) (have any advantage over) THEM WHICH ARE ASLEEP. FOR THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN (Acts 1:11, Jesus went directly from earth to Heaven and shall return "in like manner" directly from Heaven to earth. No rapture back to heaven for a later third coming!) WITH A SHOUT, WITH THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, AND THE TRUMP(et) OF GOD: AND THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE (Greek word, anistemi: to set up or be resurrected) FIRST: THEN WE WHO ARE ALIVE ("We shall not all die, but shall be changed/transformed/transfigured" (1 Cor 15:51) AND REMAIN (on the earth in the "aer") SHALL BE CAUGHT UP (made one) (harpazo) TOGETHER (at the same time) WITH THEM (the dead in Christ) IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR (the "great cloud of witnesses" that will "be made perfect" with us on earth when Jesus brings their spirits "with Him" to be united with their bodies resurrected out of the ground "first" into the air [aer] with us in the air, on the surface of the earth): AND SO SHALL WE (for) EVER BE WITH THE LORD (in the air [aer] here ON earth forever). WHEREFORE, COMFORT (reassure) ONE ANOTHER WITH THESE WORDS." (Notice, the Lord "descended from Heaven" before we are "caught up" to Him; just as the "New Jerusalem" came down to dwell with us--Rev. 21:2.) Am I the only one who thinks this might refer to the exchange in John 21:19-24? Peter learns he is to suffer crucifixion, and he wants to know what is going to happen to "the disciple whom Jesus loved" [v. 20]. He is told: "If I will that he TARRY TILL I COME, what is that to thee?.." One of the meanings of "tarry" is "to remain". http://www.bluelett erbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn021.html#22 Was John the "we who remain" to be caught up in the air, AFTER Peter and the other disciples, and those who were beheaded for their belief were resurrected? See verse 24. Is this John the Revelator. See Revelation 1. http://www.bluelette rbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev001.html#1 I have read in Josephus, I think, that John the Revelator was the last disciple to be killed, and when that happened, all hell broke loose against the city. During the battle against Jerusalem, angels were seen battling throughout the city, and in the air. Jesus came in power and glory with his cloud of martyred saints, to wreak vengeance on the Jews. Jesus said the Kingdom of God comes not with observation. [I believe the Kingdom of God has been advancing for almost 2,000 years. Soon He will come to pluck out of His kingdom all that offend.] Ezekiel 38 also speaks of the enemy coming in "like a cloud to cover the land" [of "Israel", which I see as Americam which was founded by a rag-tag group of colonists in His name at Cape Henry in 1607. - Ezekiel 34:13/John 10; Micah 4, etc.]. A concordance search of the meaning of "cloud", starting with Ezekiel 38 is helpful. Some of the meanings are "an army", "a large dense multitude", "a throng", "to act covertly", "to practice sorcery", "mysteries", etc. [ Speaking of acting covertly: Cornwallis to Freemason George Washington - a holy war will now begin against America.....on two hundred years her churches will be teaching the religion of the Jews, and she will be working for divine government...the British Empire....] The rapture hoax is a plot designed to make Christians lose faith in Jesus Christ, and accept the one-world Luciferian religion..... "..."World War III is to be fomented, using the so-called controversies; by the agents of the Illuminati operating under whatever new name; that are now being stored up between the political Zionists and the leaders of the Moslem world. That war is to be directed in such a manner that all of Islam and political Zionism (Israelis) will destroy each other while at the same time; the remaining nations, once more divided on this issue, will be forced to fight themselves into a state of complete exhaustion; physically, mentally, spiritually, and economically. "Now can any thinking person doubt that the intrigue now going on in the near Middle and Far-East is designed to accomplish that satanic objective? Pike himself foretold all this in a statement he made to Mazzini on August 15, 1871. Pike stated that after World War III is ended; those who will aspire to undisputed world-domination will provoke the greatest social-cataclysm the world has ever known. Quoting his own words taken from the letter he wrote to Mazzini and which letter is now catalogued in the British Museum in London, England; he said: "We shall unleash the nihilists and the atheists and we shall provoke a great social-cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to all nations the effect of absolute-atheism; the origins of savagery and of most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the people will be forced to defend themselves against the world-minority of the world-revolutionaries and will exterminate those destroyers of civilization and the multitudes disillusioned with Christianity whose spirits will be from that moment without direction and leadership and anxious for an ideal, but without knowledge where to send its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal-manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer brought finally out into public view. A manifestation which will result from a general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and Atheism; both conquered and exterminated at the same time."..." [ILLUMINATI AND THE COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS]
Was Jesus or any of the Apostles raptured out of their persecution? NO ....
#57. To: All (#56)
Hold THAT thought. I just remembered....it may have been the death of James that began the backlash. I'll try to look that up tomorrow. Still think the "rapture" verse is referring to John, though.
I have read in Josephus, I think, that John the Revelator was the last disciple to be killed, and when that happened, all hell broke loose against the city.
#58. To: Zipporah, IndieTX, Dakmar, Diana, *Bereans* (#29)
So, I've read Malcom Smith's series of 12 talks given on Revelation at http://www.apocalipsis.org/ Rev-I-Tape-1.htm and while I found some of his comments insightful, and he avoids some mistakes others have made, there was much I disagree with. In general, he carries his symbolic reinterpretation of literal Bible passages to extremes, producing inconsistent and conflicted meanings. I will address a few of the major ones so as to illuminate for others what are the problems, critiquing Smith's contentions that: Even though I disagree with Smith, I seriously encourage everyone to read what he has said because I have only excerpted portions and he deserves a full hearing. Reading a transcript also affords the luxury to pause, think, cross-check, copy, reread, etc., whereas when listening one is forced to 'keep up'. Because you'll be reading a transcript of talks he gave, when someone speaks contemporaneously (as it seems he did) the logic and presentation is not as cohesive as with written material, and accordingly one should be tolerant that speakers tend to ramble at spots and forget to cover all the topics they intended. Some further clarification to help the uninitiated; Smith is an " amillennialist" while I (Starwind) am a "premillennialist": This a very large distinction and pivots around Revelation chapter 20 which describes a 1000 year (hence "millennium") period during which Christ reigns on earth. Related to this is whether the events of Revelation happen in a literal time sequence or not, are those events history or future, and are we (at present) living during that 1000-year period or before it, and if the events of Revelation are literally true, then when did they, or when will they, happen. Further: The amillennialist believes Revelation 20 is symbolic; that we are living during that age now (because 2000 years has already elapsed); that the previous chapters 6-19 of Revelation are therefore either symbolic (not literally real) or were real but fulfilled as of 70 AD (this is also the " preterist" viewpoint); therefore the "tribulation" is history and thus there won't be a "rapture" before Christ returns (Revelation 19-22). The premillennialist believes Revelation 20 is literally true and yet in the future; that the previous chapters 6-19 of Revelation are likewise literally true and also future because we've not yet seen any of the events described therein happen yet (this is also the "futureist" viewpoint); therefore the "tribulation" is future and will be the 7-year long, 70th week prophesied in Daniel 9:24-27; and so the "rapture" is also future. Among premillennialists there are four main viewpoints on where in the sequence of events the rapture happens: Lastly, related to the dispute between the amillennialist/preterist and premillennialist/futurist (they do tend to pair that way though not always) is whether the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 is entirely fulfilled (all 70 weeks) or only partially (the first 69 weeks) and whether there is a "gap of time" between the 69 weeks and the 70th. I believe it is provable with certainty that only the 1st 69 weeks are fulfilled, there is a gap, and the 70th week (the tribulation of Revelation 6-19) is yet future, and that is how God revealed it to Daniel. I have written the 1st of 3 parts of that proof titled "God's Signature of Authenticity" available at http://star.wind.mystarband.net/bib/ daniel_69_weeks_proof.html with an earlier draft posted at http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=8592 . So, pivotal to a discussion on the rapture (or "catching up") is determining whether Revelation is literal and future, and not symbolic. Following now is my critique of Malcom Smith's contentions, that: John intended Revelation to be largely symbolic Now just supposing, and this is only a possibility at this point, we are coming like little children to this book to find out what it means, but just supposing that this whole book is either for the 1970s or maybe for the 1990s as yet totally unfulfilled Just supposing that this Book awaits a future time before it is happening. If that is the case, then I have got to find that plainly stated to those first-century readers. They must understand that. When they read this book, having read it they will have to close it and say, we understand that there is nothing in this book for us, it awaits another 2000 years before its fulfillment, and so shelve it away. You follow what I am saying then? Because if God wrote this book to the 1970s or to a time yet future to those 1970s and did not tell those first-century readers, then He is cheating them. No, God does not have to be specific about which generation to whom He prophesies. God was not specific about which generation descended from Abraham would receive the promised land, nor was God specific about which generation would be exiled from the promised land for disobedience. Even Jesus was indeterminate as to when the Temple would be destroyed. Did God cheat any of those generations? Obviously not. Nor were the persecuted Christians of John's readership, then or now, likewise cheated. It says, 56;Write to the Churches in Asia, Write it to them57;. Suppose I wrote you a letter, really I did not tell you, but I wrote it for someone who has not been born yet. But I pretended to write it to you, and I made great big promises to you in that letter for you, but I did not really mean them for you, it was all really a trick. It was for somebody who had not been born yet. Well that would be low, it would be cheating, unless of course I put in the letter, 56;this is not for you57;. But the letters specifically to the churches were written to them. There was no joke. The letters addressed to them, were, to them. However, the entire book of Revelation was not addressed to just seven churches, but rather was given to show " Christ's bond-servants things which must soon take place" - i.e., a broader address to people at sometime in the future (Rev 1:1). Did Christ's bond- servants exist only in the 1st century? No. However the initial portion specifically to those seven churches was more narrowly addressed to them in Rev 1:4, but then in Rev 4:1 the phrase "after these things" concludes the letters addressed specifically to the seven churches and resumes the initial broader focus for the rest of Revelation in its entirety. Lastly, Rev 22:18 closes with "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book" - the prophecy of "this book" to "everyone", not just letters to seven churches. If I am going to read a book that is going to bless me, that has got to meet me in my pain, has got to meet me in my despair - as I look around and see what has happened to the Church 51; where is it? I am the only one left! This book has got to meet me where I am at. That is a decidedly humanistic point of view, and understandable if a man solely determined to comfort fellow suffering humans. But God's thoughts and ways are not ours (Isa 55:8) and God generally has concerns other than the immediate relief of physical affliction, Jesus' healing ministry noteably excepted. We are called to identify with Christ's suffering (Rom 8:17, Phi 1:29, 1 Pet 4:13). Did God comfort Job or Joseph? Did God comfort the Christians who were being fed to lions, used as torches, and crucified under Nero? We do not know how the Holy Spirit comforted and supported those martyrs. In this world however they and we are promised tribulation (John 16:33), and like Job we are to exercise faith no matter what (Job 13:15). I'm reminded of Paul who wrote that he was given a thorn in the flesh to not exalt himself with the surpassing greatness of his revelations (2 Cor 12:7). I believe the revelations to which Paul referred may have been God encouraging Paul by showing him that in spite of his suffering, Paul's missions and the letters he would write would be the backbone of Christian theology down through the ages, and millions of people would come to Christ through Paul's writing. Imagine how you might feel 'self-exalted' if God showed how something you would write would bring millions to Christ and be taught in churches, seminaries, bible studies and spawn thousands of books, etc., all resulting in "Christ being preached"! The key point being, God intended Paul's letters for the universal church for all time, 1st century AD through to the present, even though Paul's letters were addressed to only seven churches and two pastors. Likewise, merely because John was told to write to seven specific churches does not mean it was intended to 'comfort' them specifically, especially considering the words of condemnation and chastisement to all the churches except Philadelphia. How much comfort does a suffering Christian get from a letter that says "You began ok but you've screwed up and need to do better"? Revelation was not intended to bring comfort from present suffering, but rather spiritual strengthening plus revelation of reasons to trust God (even unto death as would have Job) - a message applicable for everyone for all time and circumstances, beyond whomever was 1st to receive a copy. So, no, one does not need to empathize with the suffering Christian of 95 AD to understand Revelation and to whom it applies. The very first verse tells me. It says 56;He sent and communicated it by way of an Angel57; I don57;t often disagree with the translation of the New American Standard Version but on this occasion I do 51; the King James57; is better there, it says they sent and signified it. The original Greek word there is 56;He sent and made it known by signs and symbols57;. He made it known by tokens. Signs, symbols, tokens. So He communicated it. This is entirely false and incorrect. The original Greek is not 'signs and symbols57; or 'tokens'. No, the Greek word (singular) actually used simply means to give a sign, indicate, signify, or make known. The NASB and KJV translations for Rev 1:1 ("communicated" and "signified" respectively) are based on exactly the same Greek word (Strong's number G4591): where ejshvmanen 4591 means Further, had John actually meant signs, symbols, or tokens as in " signs and wonders", that is a different Greek word and John knew the difference because he used that word also in Revelation when he wanted to describe something that was a remarkably different, unnatural sign or token, as performed by the 2nd beast from the earth: where shmei'a4592 means John did not make any mistakes when in Rev 1:1 he meant " communicated" or "signified" and not "signs" or "wonders" as he meant in Rev 13:13. Even without knowing Greek, one can still see that these are distinctly different Greek words with different lengths and different spellings, with only a 3-letter-sequence in common: John did not accidentally write the wrong word in Rev 1:1. John meant "communicated" or "signified", and not " signs", "symbols", or "tokens". There is absolutely no textual basis in the original Greek to construe that John intended all of Revelation to be symbolic. "like" means symbolic rather than similar In v. 10 I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, and I will point out 2 things, (1) we are right into the world of symbolism immediately. He did not say he heard a trumpet. He said he heard a voice like the sound of a trumpet which immediately tells me you are looking for something else. Now my question is as I approach that is what is the symbolism of a trumpet? When I read of a trumpet in the Book of Revelation if it is a book of sign, symbols and tokens, what am I to expect? Why not expect a voice that reminds one of a trumpet but isn't exactly a trumpet? A trumpet heralds an announcement or proclamation. Why can't a creature who is heralding or proclaiming what John is to do have a voice like a trumpet? Some women have high pitched-squeaky voices that might remind one of an untuned violin, some men have voices so deep they remind one of a tuba. In heaven with odd creatures such as cherubim and seraphim, what is so unacceptable as a voice that sounds like a trumpet? And yet there is no problem accepting that Jesus' voice can sound like many waters, literally Niagra Falls. His voice, it says that voice was like the sound of many waters 51; when I was studying this book and trying to fathom what that really meant 51; I knew what it meant, but what did it really mean? I was in Buffalo at the time when I was studying it, so I took a trip to Niagara Falls, and stood by the sound of many waters to hear what it sounded like. The sound of many waters is the sound of majesty. You stand by Niagara Falls and it is the sound of majesty. It is a sound of awful, frightening power, yet there is a harmony there when you think of all the water there going over the falls, and yet it sounds as one sound. It is a sound of perfect beauty, perfect harmony, awesome, frightening power and a majesty that strikes wonder in the heart. Said John, when He spoke it was the sound of many waters. He says that His voice reduced me to fear and yet at the same time it exhorted me to worship such beauty such harmony, it struck awe, it struck wonder, I will never forget His voice he said, and the words that were in that voice they were like a sword coming out of His mouth. "I new want it meant, but what did it really mean?" - Well, there's your trouble. It really meant what you knew it means. Here is inconsistency in identifying symbolism. A voice that sounds like a trumpet "must be something else" but a voice that sounds like many waters is "majestic". There is no consistent methodology (no consistent hermeneutic); neither voice being quite 'like' anything human but unacceptable in once instance while acceptable in the next. Clearly, Smith's symbolism can be whatever he wants it to be. And as he comes he turns and he sees which if we interpret it literally he sees something quite grotesque. It is a vision of Jesus. There is no doubt about that as He identifies Himself, I am the First and the Last, I was dead, I am alive, there is no question as to who it is, but if I am going to say that that is a literal thing that John actually saw as if that was the Jesus he saw, then I say that that is grotesque when you think about it. The white hair, eyes which were in themselves flames of fire, out of his mouth a great sword sticking, feet that were glowing like brass in a furnace. The whole thing is grotesque. To think of Jesus with a sword coming out of His mouth, if that is a literal thing that John actually saw was the physical person of Jesus, John saw Jesus, but what he saw was beyond words and the only way he could describe what he saw was by the symbolism by which Jesus chose to present Himself. "Grotesque" seems a rather personal reaction. It doesn't seem grotesque to me. It seems awesome and power-full. The sword need not be metallic and hanging like an extended tongue, but rather given that the "sword of the spirit is the word of God" (Eph 6:17) it could be the Holy Spirit - shimmering and nebulous in the shape of a sword and somewhat "transfigured" (Mat 17:2) and it need not appear with the hilt attached at the mouth but free-floating a short distance away, perhaps angled towards the listener, ready to 'pierce and divide soul from heart' (Heb 4:12) connected to Jesus by His spoken word. As if instead of carrying a physical sword in its scabbard at His waist, it is a spiritual sword, always drawn and at the ready when He speaks. Eyes like fire? Three times in Revelation Jesus is described as having "eyes like fire". A very understandable and recognizable appearance for a powerful and all-seeing God. Feet glowing like brass grotesque? No more grotesque than the transfiguration. Voice like many waters? Imagine the powerful roar of a waterfall like Niagra falls but with the clarity of many singer's voices combined in perfect harmony - imagine a Jesus who can speak like an amplified accapella choir of bass voices. When symbolism or analogy is used, the bible says so. Jesus identified his "parables" as such. Jesus said what the seven stars and lampstands actually symbolized (Rev 1:20). An angel explains the mystery of the woman who rides the beast and what the horns signify (Rev 17:7+). The great dragon is identified for us as Satan (Rev 12:9). Some symbols are not identified (like the woman with a crown of 12 stars) however these are specifically identified as signs and symbols, even though the key to what they represent isn't always provided. By contrast, however, the abyss, the locusts from the abyss, the falling stars and burning mountain (possibly asteroids or a falling space station burning upon reentry) are not labeled as symbols. John merely describes them as best he can. From our modern perspective, we can imagine what kinds of things John might be seeing, things for which John had no vocabulary and for which neither Jesus nor John specifically identified as symbolic. But there is no reason to insist what was unexplainable to John must be symbolic for us. While there is little harm done in speculating or drawing parallels from elsewhere in scripture as to why a sound or appearance is as described, however incessantly and inconsistently discarding the God-inspired descriptions in favor of doctrine-compatible descriptions are unwarranted changes to what scripture says and means, especially when those changes result in contradictions to other scriptural passages: For example, Paul tells us we need spiritual armor and that we battle powers and principalities (Eph 6:11-17), and Peter says Satan is prowling about like a lion seeking someone to devour (1Pe 5:8). But Smith's symbology says (simultaneously) that Jesus already bound Satan but also that Satan (a spiritual being) can't be bound (by spiritual chains). Yes, Jesus defeated death at the cross, but nowhere in scripture (aside from Rev 20) does it say Satan is bound; in fact Paul and Peter tell us otherwise. And in Rev 20, why can't God create spiritual chains that can bind a created spiritual being? Is God not powerful enough? Another example that Smith's symbology is often self-conflicting: Consider his construing the 144,000 (Rev 7:4) as the real church, but then also as the great multitude in white robes who came out of the tribulation, even though the 144,000 remain on earth sealed from harm during the tribulation. They can't be both a countable number 144, 000 and simultaneously too great to number (Rev 7:9), they can't be simultaneously in heaven having come out of the great tribulation (Rev 7:14) and still on earth enduring through the great tribulation (Rev 9:4). Are we to believe God was not capable of ensuring John wrote what God wanted us to read? Can God not make Himself understood exactly as He intended? Judgments happen in parallel rather than sequential He then saw an innumerable multitude, he saw that multitude, at the end of Chapter 7, we do not have time to go into that tonight, but we shall come across it again, for all these visions run parallel, You will have noted I hope that these visions run parallel to each other. You don57;t begin at the beginning of Revelation and then move chronologically on 51; there is no chronology in the book of Revelation. You have principles. You can57;t say this happened at such and such a time, or this will happen at such and such a time 51; the only specific time that each vision moves towards is the Grand Finale, the judgement of God, the coming of Christ. The rest of the visions are principles. And again we shall return later to that woe, but now all these things 51; they do not happen chronologically, but I look across the world and I say, that is this trumpet, that one over there is blowing that trumpet. These do not happen one after another, but they are happening all around us, and it is for us to interpret what we see and hear in the light of what God says. Firstly, the contents of the seals, trumpets and bowls when interpreted as parallel events (assuming Smith's interpretations as shown below using the 1st of each series as an example) are not similar, i.e. there is no basis to infer they are three parallel descriptions of the same event: The historical record tells us that never during the church age or during Christ's earthly ministry (which is Smith's interpretation of the 1st seal) has hail and fire been mixed with blood and a 3rd of the earth burned, nor has there ever been a beast who imposed a mark on the hand or forehead without which one could neither buy nor sell, neither literally nor even figuratively. The seal, trumpet and bowl judgments are numbered, in a numerical sequence; they are described and opened in that sequence. They could have been simply listed and described, or given names, but they were specifically enumerated and then they happen in that numbered sequence. Also, we are only told "it is done" only when the last of the 7 bowls is poured out; but not when the 7th seal was opened, nor when the 7th trumpet was sounded - because they are not in parallel and they were not the end. But Revelation doesn't tell us when the 1st seal is opened or how long each judgment lasts, but the descriptions would seem to imply they progressively shorten and intensify. Because Daniel's prophecy (Dan 7) of a 10-horned beast corresponds with the John's 10-horned beast (Rev 17:7 ), and because Daniel's prophecy of the 70th week (Dan 9:27) describes an " abomination that ends sacrifices" which is also referred to by Christ (Mat 24:15 ), and these are end-times prophecies, therefore premillenniallists generally recognize Daniel's 70th week as being the tribulation of Revelation. So, on that basis, the 7 seals, trumpets, and bowls are believed to also fit within a 7-year period. The chart below portrays the sequence of the seals, trumpets and bowls of Revelation within Daniel's 7-year 70th week. Seals 1 thru 6 are opened in Rev 6:1 thru Rev 6:12 Trumpets 1 thru 6 are "sounded" in Rev 8:7 thru 9:13 The colors of the comments above are intended to correspond with the colored chart areas below So, essentially the judgments are sequential with the 7th seal containing all 7 trumpets and the 7th trumpet containing all 7 bowls - sort of " like" those Russian matrioshka nesting dolls. 144,000 is the church on earth, and in heaven (simultaneously) The 24 Elders are a symbol of the Church of all ages. The church of the Old Testament and the Church of the New Testament, Ok, first off we're to believe 24 Elders represent the entire church. Hold that thought. It tells me the number and again, please please, my Bible says, the remnant of Israel, 144000. Now I think by this time we do not have to apologise for what we are doing. Numbers are ideas, not arithmetic. So here is an idea that is summed up in the term of 144,000, and I know that a mere translator, publisher put that in because any Bible student would know that is not a listing Israel. If that is Israel according to the flesh, Israel natural blood Israel, then that is the most messed up list in the Bible. And right to begin with they go absolutely wrong because they got the first two messed up. Whenever there is a list of a natural list of Israel, certain things have to be. And number one, it has to begin with Reuben, because Reuben was the first-born, and he might have been a slob but he was the first one, and he was as weak as water says the Scripture, and he never did anything, he just assumed the place where he was, but weak as water though he was, he was first-born, and so Reuben should be first. He is not. While Reuben being first born is often listed first, it is not a rule. Five times Reuben is not listed first, 3 because of the sequence being chosen by lot): Further, there are at least 19 occurrences of Israel57;s tribes listed in the Old Testament but only Num 2:7 and 10:14-29 repeats the sequence exactly. Ephraim is left out 51; that is almost like saying, here is a list of States, and you leave out Washington DC because Ephraim was the important next to the tribe of Judah. Judah was the head tribe in that the kings came from Judah, but Ephraim was so important, that many times Israel is called Ephraim, it is a shorthand term for Israel, and they have left out the tribe of Ephraim! They have also left out the Tribe of Dan. You just can57;t just write a list and leave out things like that. Obviously we are not dealing with a real listing of Israel. Reuben is in the wrong place, and Ephraim, the most important tribe next to Judah is left out, so is Dan, and Levi is included, and Levi was never included, because he was a tribe very definitely, but he had no inheritance. Scripture is silent on why Ephraim and Dan were left out; perhaps the Lord omitted them because they were guilty of the worst idolatry (the very opposite of "bondservants" who will "sing a new song), while conversely the Levites could be included because this is not a list of land inheritors or armies but rather a list of "bondservants" who will " sing a new song". Further, both Ephraim and Dan are listed in Ezekiel (47-48), which clearly is not historical and must therefore be future. So whatever precluded Ephraim and Dan from participating as "bond-servants" who will " sing a new song" during the great tribulation, God (as Ezekiel's division shows) will nonetheless keep His unconditional, everlasting covenant that Abraham's descendants (which includes Ephraim and Dan) would possess the entirety of the promised land (Gen 15:17-18, 17:6-8). The idea of numbering to an Israelite would be synonymous with being redeemed. Here is a company headed by the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, every one of them redeemed. There is no conflict here. They were redeemed, all 144,000: Rev 14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased 59 from the earth. Strong's G59 agorazo? What about the number, though? We are back to those 12s again. Do you know what 144000 is 3x4 is 12, 3 x 4 is 12, 12 x 12 is 144, right? So we are back again to the 12 of the Old Testament, 12 of the New Testament, and 12 x 12 gives us 144, but then it is x 10 by x10 by x10. 10 is the perfection of number. You go 1-10, stop at 10 and begin at 1 again. It is for completion. It is complete x 3 is completeness, completeness completeness, the number of God. And so this great company could be looked at from all these twelve difference angles, and you could say, now that is the Company. It is the Israel of God alright, it is the Israel that Israel was always meant to be. It is the true company of those who are conquered by God. Lorded by the Lamb of the Tribe of Judah and it is the perfect, the most complete, I have never seen it 51; it began with Abel and who knows when it will end but God sees it as one completed company, so it is not 144000 51; it is the complete number of the Church of God. 144000 is but an idea that lets me know that. The names of the tribes only expound to me the nature of that company. '10' is not the perfection of number. If anything perfection (or completion) of number would be '9' because the number system begins not with '1' but with 0 and runs 0, 1, 2, ... 8, 9. 10 is a two-digit number, the beginning, not the end, of the next range 10-99. With the notable exception of the "ten" commandments, nowhere else in the bible is the number '10' given any significance by God. However, the number '7' generally symbolizes God's perfection or completion; by the 7th day God completed His work (Gen 2:2); Jericho was marched around 7 times for seven days with 7 priests carrying 7 trumpets and then fell (Jos 6); 7 seals, 7 trumpets, and 7 bowls of Revelation, then "it is finished". But now Smith would have us believe that 24 Elders represent the entire church and also 144,000. Can we also infer that 144,000 represent 24 Elders, or that 24 Elders represent 144,000? John declared those wearing white robes who had come out of the tribulation to be "a great multitude which no one could count" (Rev 7:9) and the complete church is certainly larger still, while the 144,000 very clearly is countable, at least enough to lend itself to Smith's numerology. Not every man can be touched either. Many people today would disagree with me on that, argue with chapter 9 verse 4. It says that these hordes of demons that overshadow the world they cannot touch those who have the seal of God on their foreheads, and we have already seen that is the 144000 people who are the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ. So although we may be in the midst of a demonic invasion, and although hordes of demonic locusts cover the earth, walk straight and tall child of God, you have the seal of God on your forehead, and cannot be touched. So says this vision. John saw the church, a great uncountable multitude wearing white robes standing before the throne having coming out of the tribulation (Rev 7:9-14). How can the 144,000 represent the church simultaneously in heaven having come out of the great tribulation (Rev 7:14) while the 144,000 is still on earth enduring through the great tribulation (Rev 9:4)? It is a very solemn time, and therefore this section, or this Vision begins with another look at the 144000. It said they were standing on Mt Zion. Before we deal with a world that will not repent, God said, take another look at the Church, understand who they are, understand where they stand.. We have already met the 144000, they are no strangers to us, and I am not going over what the 144000 means. I shall simply state what we simply sought to prove when we met them in Chapter 7, the 144000 is the complete Church, the Church of the Old Testament, the Church of the New Testament, all those who have rested either side of the cross, and all those that have rested in the Lord Jesus. But there were some different things in chapter 14 to what we found in chapter 7. Now it says that all these, the 144000 51; the whole total Church, they stood before the Throne and sang praise to God. At this point, the 144,000 are singing before the throne (Rev 14:3); John sees them in heaven standing with Christ on Mt Zion and before the throne. But previously they were on earth (Rev 9:4) not being stung by the locusts from the Abyss, and earlier they were on earth getting sealed before the earth sea or trees could be harmed (Rev 7:3). So, how did they get from earth (Rev 7:3 & Rev 9:4) to heaven before the throne with Christ when Christ doesn't return until (Rev 19)? Were the 144,000 raptured? Was the complete church of God raptured in Rev 14:3? Do you remember we skipped over one particular portion way back in Chapter 7. After John had heard the number 144000 51; he only heard the number, we saw that was the number of the Church in all its perfection. Remember I pointed out that John did not see that, he only heard it. I have never seen the perfect church 51; I have never seen the Church of all ages, I have heard God say that He has got it. John heard it, but after he heard it in chapter 7 v 9, it says after these things, after he heard it, " behold I looked and saw a great multitude which no man could count from every nation, tribe, people tongue standing before the Throne, same place as the se we are talking of, and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, palm branches were in their hands, they cried with a loud voice 56;Salvation to our God Who sits on the Throne, and to the Lamb57;". There is no mistaking that Smith equates the 144,000 to the great multitude in white robes to be the whole total church. And thus there can be no mistaking the contradiction that he has unwittingly set up that the 144,000 can't simultaneously be in heaven and on earth. Smith argues that 24 Elders represents the church which is represented by 144,000 which isn't really a number but is the uncountable great multitude which is simultaneously in heaven and on earth, and Israel (whom God chose and made an everlasting unconditional covenant) has been abandoned by God. This is where careless spiritualizing leads - meandering self- contradiction. Two witnesses are not two witnesses But there is a side of the church that can be touched, and the Vision suddenly changes, in chapter 11 and we see two witnesses. I have heard more about these two witnesses, we know more about these two witnesses than the FBI know about the 10 most wanted men. If this is a book of symbols, then obviously whatever it means it does not mean two witnesses. Two witnesses is a symbol, an idea and the Bible makes it very clear to me, very plain. Once you understand the Bible, the keys are hanging up just waiting to be taken off the hook. Look at these two witnesses, put them together as one symbol, two witnesses who prophecy, they are dressed in sackcloth, fire comes from their mouth they have the power to turn water to blood and to strike the earth with plagues. And they are called the two olive trees, two lamps who stand before the Lord in all the earth. So two witnesses is a shorthand symbol for saying a perfect and complete testimony to truth. Two witnesses is a symbol 51; it is not two witnesses, an idea, it is shorthand and it says two witness means the perfect, complete testimony to the Truth. The Church is not only a worshipping community, the Church also is the perfect witness of God to truth on the streets of this world. You can57;t touch the worshipping community, but you can touch its public witness, that is why the two witnesses are killed. Now Smith finds it convenient (even important) to reverse his prior symbolism and declare the church previously sealed-from-harm to now be touchable. Smith does this to to accommodate symbolizing the two witness as the church as well, but Smith knows the two witnesses are slain and then resurrected (Rev 11:3-12) and so to claim the two witnesses represent the church consequently requires an explanation for why the church can be slain and lie dead for 3 and a half days, even though ostensibly the church (144,000) was sealed from harm. So, what is Smith's explanation? He didn't give one, did he. Nor did Smith consider that the two witnesses are on earth giving their testimony for 1260 days, no more, no less. How is it the entire church of all ages (as Smith symbolizes it) gives testimony for only 1260 days? Hasn't the church been giving testimony all during the amillennial period? For at least the last 2000 years? Or is 1260 only an idea? Ok, what idea? 1260 and 144,000 both presumably represent the church, but different numbers hence different ideas, right? Perhaps because 1260 doesn't even factor by 12 or 10 or 7, Smith skipped that particular idea. And then there is the issue of the two witnesses being 'resurrected and taken up to heaven' (Rev 11:11-12). How was the church (two witnesses) resurrected and taken up? Was that yet another rapture in Rev 11, before Christ returns in Rev 19? Or maybe Smith would clarify not the church but rather the "perfect, complete testimony to the Truth" was slain for 3 and half days and then taken up to heaven. But then, how does an abstract idea like "perfect complete testimony" actually prevent rain, turn water to blood, and bring plagues (Rev 11:6)? The simple, straight forward answer is just as the Bible plainly says. The two witnesses are two people, probably two Old Testament figures, perhaps Elijah (Mal 4:5) and Moses (Mat 17:3, Mar 9:4) and they stand unbent giving witness (like fruitful olive trees) testifying of the truth (the light of truth like lamp stands) for 1,260 days (half the 7 year tribulation period), and when their testimony is finished (Rev 11:7) they are physically slain and lie dead for 3 and half days, and then resurrected and taken up, like Christ was. Is that consistent, simple, literal truth not more comprehensible than Smith's inconsistent symbolism? Millennium is not a 1000-year earthly reign of Christ When we come to chapter 20, I don57;t believe that chapter 20 is a key chapter to the Book of Revelation, I believe that chapter 5 is, but in the minds of a great many people, chapter 20- is the most important. You may have hear of the Millennium. The word Millennium is not in the Bible, and that makes it very difficult to argue for it, as a doctrine, or against it. I am always suspect of words that are not in the Bible. Well, obviously a quick check of any dictionary (yes, a lot to ask of anyone preferring their own meanings, I know) under "millennia" or "millennial" would show it means "related to a 1000 years". That standard English definition is applicable to the 6 specific times that Rev 20 states a "thousand years" - hence using the term "Millennium" to lend a name to this period described in Rev 20. There, that really wasn't so suspicious, now was it. Further, you won't find "Bible", "Genesis", or " Trinity" (among others) in the Bible either. But I doubt these words are suspect, so clearly Smith's criteria of what he finds credible seems based mainly on his own whim than on any textual analysis. What they are saying is, a Pre-millennialists one who believes that Jesus Christ will come and set up a physical kingdom in Israel and rule in Jerusalem, rebuild the Temple and reinstate the sacrifices and rule for 1000 years, during which time the physical nation of Israel will be the top dogs of the world. They are Pre-millennialists. That is generally true of what some premillennialists believe. This is where "labels" begin to break down. The bible does not state the physical kingdom is limited to Israel, rather it is a kingdom encompassing the entire earth but likely the king (Christ) will reign from a rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem (Ezekiel 40-47). Ezekiel does not prophecy that all sacrifices will be reinstated. There is no guilt offering among the Ezekiel sacrifices, and the sin " offering" is brought by the Temple prince, not the people. This is consistent with Christ having eliminated guilt under the Law and Christ himself having already provided himself as the sin offering. Other normal, routine sacrifices like the "thanks" and "tithe" might continue naturally as "tithes and offerings" continue in Christian churches today. Here is a chart comparing the Ezekiel sacrifices vs the Levitical sacrifices: Offering Burnt atone for unintentional sin, worship, commitment& surrender to God Grain worship, recognize God's provision, devotion Peace (Fellowship) worship, thanksgiving, fellowship with others usually at a meal Sin unintentional sin, confession, forgiveness, cleansing Guilt for sin requiring restitution , forgiveness, cleansing Ezekiel Temple Offer Providers Prince for House of Israel People for themselves Levitical Offering Providers People for themselves Lev 4:3 if the anointed priest sins ... let him offer Priests cleanse the temple, & for themselves * Priests perform the sacrificial cleansing of the temple, but the Prince provides the sacrifice. Smith's characterization of Israel as "top dogs" reveals, I think, a deeper animosity; Revelation and even Rev 20 certainly makes no such implication. While Israel is God's chosen people and God will keep His unconditional, everlasting covenant that Abraham's descendants will inhabit the promised land (Gen 15:17-18, 17:6-8), God nonetheless is no respecter of persons and sees no distinction between Jews and others (Rom 10:12). Israel was chosen for a special responsibility, not special privilege - they are not "top dogs" and whoever reigns with Christ (Rev 20:6) are of the "first resurrection", whether Jew or gentile. An A-Millennialist is one who does not believe that there will be a Millennium at all, but that the terms that are used here in Rev 20 are symbolic of something else. A thousand years? By this time you should be expert at numerology. A thousand years, why at this time should it suddenly become a thousand years when all the other numbers we have seen have been symbolical. What is a thousand? 10 x 10 x 10. And we have seen that 10 is the number of finality, of completion. 3 times over 51; this is complete, total finality, beginning with when Jesus bound the Devil at the Cross there is a time known only to God but it is total, complete, the fulfillment of God57;s plan . As noted earlier, '10' is not indicative of completeness, rather '7' is God's number for complete. But if 1000 represents "complete total finality beginning with the crucifixion" and the age during which the amillennialist believes we live at present, then here we are 2000 years later with " complete total finality" as yet incomplete and not yet final. If the amillennial age is complete total finality, why isn't it complete and final yet? Or perhaps "complete" and "final" don't really mean complete and final, either? God meant for forty days and forty nights to mean literally that for Noah; 7,000 who have not bowed to Baal meant literally that to Elijah (1Ki 19:18 ); for 70 years exile to mean literally that to Jeremiah; for 70 " weeks" to mean literally that for Daniel; for feeding 5,000 to mean literally 5, 000 to Matthew (Mat 14:21), Mark (Mar 6:44), Luke (Luk 9:14), and John (Joh 6:10); a 1000 years is as one day meant literally that to Peter (2Pe 3:8) and the Psalmist (Psa 90:4). But somehow in Rev 20 a "thousand years" doesn't really mean a "thousand years", even though it is repeated 6 times? Satan can't be bound, but already is, sort of It doesn57;t say that the Devil is no longer around 51; it said that at that time when he was bound (and let me say this, if this is a literal passage, how can a chain of earth bind the Devil who is a spirit?) You try and bind a spirit with a chain, the idea is ridiculous. Whatever that chain was, it had to be a spiritual chain. What spiritual chain can bind Satan? The most elementary Christian know that it is the finished work of Christ that has bound the Devil. But Rev 20:1 didn't say "a chain of earth" did it, but that self-serving distortion helps Smith prop up his argument. Of course it was a spiritual chain as Smith acknowledges. Rev 20:1 says "... from heaven ... a great chain..." - not your average chain but a great chain was brought by an angel from heaven, not by some prison guard from earth. Is God (who is spirit) not powerful enough to create a spiritual chain that can bind His own created spiritual being? Is not divine justice further served through binding with a chain like an inhuman beast should be bound? Does not the aspect of chaining add a degree of well-deserved humiliation to Satan's imprisonment? Death was defeated at the cross, but Satan was not bound. Jesus defeated death at the cross and we have victory in Christ, but clearly Satan is not bound now. Yes, Satan is legally defeated (as we are legally justified), but Satan is not bound in any sense. Believers are freed and can resist the devil, but we should take care not to attack him directly. Even Smith himself rightly admonishes: You should beware, the Devil may be the Devil and may be defeated, but he is not to be despised. He is the greatest power in this world next to God. There is a chasm between him and God, but as far as created beings are concerned, the Devil is the greatest of created beings, and even though understood to have fallen to be treated with the utmost respect. And I tell you very solemnly, do not despise the Devil . It states in Jude 9, 56;Michael the Archangel, when disputing with the Devil did not dare to turn on his a railing judgment, but said, The Lord rebuke you. Even the highest angels which we know about did not dare to mock the Devil, but had to via the Lord. If the finished work of Christ has in fact bound the devil, why are we to treat the Devil with the utmost respect and not dare to mock him? Bound creations need not be treated with utmost respect, do not prowl about seeking someone to devour, or necessitate wearing spiritual armor in defense. But Paul warns us that we need spiritual armor and that we battle powers and principalities (Eph 6:11-17), and Peter warns that Satan is prowling about like a lion seeking someone to devour (1Pe 5:8). Finally, Smith himself notes in Rev I Tape 4 that Satan can in fact be bound, and will be bound, in the future: For salvation cannot be understood as absolutely complete until the final judgment takes place, and only when sin has been judged, put away and Satan been eternally bound, only then can we say 56;It is done57;. Smith's inconsistent symbolism says (simultaneously) that: Clear? Nowhere in scripture (aside from Rev 20) does it say Satan is bound. Both Paul and Peter tell us otherwise and even Smith himself agrees Satan can be, but isn't yet, bound. Yes, Satan can be bound, and even with a spiritual chain, but Satan simply is not bound yet, because the Millennium (during which is Satan is bound) hasn't happened yet. It is future. Reality exists both in the spiritual realm (heaven, angels, demons, etc.) and in the physical realm (earth, disease, flesh). The Bible can be literally true about spiritual events and creatures and literally true about physical (earthly) events and people. Just because something is spiritual does not mean it must of necessity also be symbolic and thus subject to repetitive reinterpretation to suite the doctrine du-jour. Generally, when the Bible uses symbols or analogies (parables) we are told as much. But when we are not told explicitly that something is symbolic or has some other meaning, then we ought not to invent new meanings - especially new meanings which conflict with themselves and the rest of scripture. That is why a consistent hermeneutic is important. I would also suggest that folks take note of the detailed information available in the Bible which one can analyze and organize into a meaningful picture. These are the jigsaw pieces which can be placed in their proper positions to reveal a picture. Only when puzzle pieces are forced into different shapes and colors do they fail to fit somewhere, distorting or obscuring the picture.
Seal 7 is opened in Rev 8:1 but the contents of the 7th seal are immediately seen in Rev 8:2 as 7 angels with 7 trumpets:
Trumpet 7 is sounded in Rev 11:15 but Rev 12 thru 14 " parenthetically" describe what else is happening regarding the beast(s).
Rev 8:13 declares the "3 woes" coincide with the last 3 trumpets sounding: Rev 9:12 correlates the 3 woes to trumpets 5, 6 and 7, and Rev 9:13 confirms the "2nd woe" corresponds to the 6th trumpet, then Rev 11:15 sounds the 7th trumpet but we aren't specifically told it is the "3rd woe", nor are we ever told anywhere in Revelation specifically when the "3rd woe" is past. Bowls 1 thru 7 are "poured" in Rev 16:1 thru Rev 16:17 and in Rev 16:17 with the 7th bowl poured we are told "it is done"
woe
woe
woe | | | | | | |
ag-or-ad'-zo
From G58; properly to go to market, that is, (by implication) to purchase; specifically to redeem: - buy, redeem.
Elements Eze 45:17 "It shall be the prince's part to provide the burnt offerings, the grain offerings and the drink offerings, at the feasts, on the new moons and on the sabbaths, at all the appointed feasts of the house of Israel; he shall provide the sin offering, the grain offering, the burnt offering and the peace offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel." Eze 45:18-20* 1/1, 7th each month Eze 45:21-24 1/14 7days 1/14 7days 1/14 1st -7th day Eze 45:25 7/15 7 days 7/15 7 days 7/15 7 days Eze 46:4-5 Sabbath Sabbath Eze 46:6-7 new moon new moon Eze 46:11 festivals & feasts Eze 46:12 Sabbath Sabbath Eze 46:13, 15 continually Eze 46:14, 15 continually Lev 1:3 if his offering is a burnt offering ... he shall offer it Lev 2:1,2 ...when anyone presents a grain offering...He shall then bring it Lev 3:1 if his offering is a sacrifice of peace offerings ... he shall offer it
Lev 4:14 ...then the assembly shall offer...
Lev 4:23 ...[a leader] shall bring for his offering
Lev 4:28 then [the common person] shall bring for his offering
Lev 5:7 [the poor] shall bring ... for a sin offering
Lev 5:11 [the very poor] shall bring ... for a sin offering Lev 5:6 'He shall also bring his guilt offering to the LORD for his sin which he has committed, Ex 29:39-42 daily, and feasts Nu 28:9-10 double on Sabbath
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#59. To: All (#58)
Well the posting process seems to have hosed the formatting a bit. An unprocessed version can be viewed at:
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
#60. To: Starwind (#58)
thanks for taking the time to read Malcolm Smith's Revelation series it IS long.. I've not got time YET to comment but will get back to you soon! and Thanks.
#61. To: IndieTX (#40)
One of the cable stations ran a propaganda piece last week about it. I think it was Nat. Geo.
#62. To: Starwind (#59)
Do you really expect anybody to read that rapture monkey drool? You get an award for the longest post ever on this site. The three banana award. 
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
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