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Israel/Zionism
See other Israel/Zionism Articles

Title: Albert Einstein A Plagiarist?
Source: The Guardian - UK 8-29-03
URL Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,3928978-103681,00.html
Published: Apr 5, 2006
Author: By Rory Carroll in Rome
Post Date: 2006-04-06 00:05:11 by Horse
Keywords: None
Views: 558
Comments: 122

Einstein's E=mc2 'was Italian's idea'

Rory Carroll in Rome
Thursday November 11, 1999
Guardian

The mathematical equation that ushered in the atomic age was discovered by an unknown Italian dilettante two years before Albert Einstein used it in developing the theory of relativity, it was claimed yesterday.

Olinto De Pretto, an industrialist from Vicenza, published the equation E=mc2 in a scientific magazine, Atte, in 1903, said Umberto Bartocci, a mathematical historian.

Einstein allegedly used De Pretto's insight in a major paper published in 1905, but De Pretto was never acclaimed, said Professor Bartocci of the University of Perugia.

De Pretto had stumbled on the equation, but not the theory of relativity, while speculating about ether in the life of the universe, said Prof Bartocci. It was republished in 1904 by Veneto's Royal Science Institute, but the equation's significance was not understood.

A Swiss Italian named Michele Besso alerted Einstein to the research and in 1905 Einstein published his own work, said Prof Bartocci. It took years for his breakthrough to be grasped. When the penny finally dropped, De Pretto's contribution was overlooked while Einstein went on to become the century's most famous scientist. De Pretto died in 1921.

"De Pretto did not discover relativity but there is no doubt that he was the first to use the equation. That is hugely significant. I also believe, though it's impossible to prove, that Einstein used De Pretto's research," said Prof Bartocci, who has written a book on the subject.

Einstein's theory held that time and motion are relative to the observer if the speed of light is constant and if all natural laws are the same. A footnote established the equivalence of mass and energy, according to which the energy (E) of a quantity of matter (m) is equal to the product of the mass and the square of the velocity of light (c). Now known as: E=mc2 .

The influence of work by other physicists on Einstein's theory is also controversial. A German, David Hilbert, is thought by some to have been decisive.

Edmund Robertson, professor of mathematics at St Andrew's University, said: "An awful lot of mathematics was done by people who have never been credited - Arabs in the middle ages, for example. Einstein may have got the idea from someone else, but ideas come from all sorts of places.

"De Pretto deserves credit if his contribution can be proven. Even so, it should not detract from Einstein."

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006
Poster Comment: I posted this in response to 2 insults questioning what I said to be true. That Einstein was a plagiarist and that the Jewish people control the press in America. Notice that this was published in England as was the paper on the Israeli lobby as the Jewish control on the press is very tight here. I am not starting a flame war. I just do not take insults well.

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#21. To: Jethro Tull (#19)

How about this statement.

Our Iraqi foreign policy is the fault of some Jews.

No problem there, right?

Well according to Phil Zelikow it was:

War Launched to Protect Israel - Bush Adviser

Zipporah  posted on  2006-04-07   12:33:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: christine (#6)

Don't mean to intrude on this (well maybe I do) but when we had lots of posters here from another site temporarily some of them posted some over the top remarks about Jews, it was somewhat eye-opening. I am sensitive to white-bashing I see in the media and all over in general. It's no accident. At the same time in the past few years we have been bombarded with subtle messages about others. And I've considered the fact that Abe Foxman could be working against his own people, he has to know that the way he operates can only engender bad feelings on all sides.

I would not want to be Jewish in this day and age, it's not any better than being white (or Arab) with all the bashing, accusations, death wishes and such.

Both groups are being put down and made to appear dispicable.

This is probably a much safer time period for the Mexicans or Chinese.

Diana  posted on  2006-04-07   12:42:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Zipporah (#21)

I use High Beam library for research. When I typed in Iraqi war to benefit Israel I got 12,058 hits. The connection is denied by only those who wish to ignore the obvious.

Malaysian prime minister tells Al-Jazeera U.S. attacked Iraq to protect Israel

AP Worldstream; 4/6/2003

Dateline: DOHA, Qatar Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad told Al-Jazeera in an interview broadcast Sunday on the pan-Arab satellite station that he believed the main purpose of the war on Iraq was to protect Israel. Mahathir, speaking in English with an Arabic translation voice-over, also said Syria, Pakistan and Iran could be the next U.S. targets. It was not clear when the Qatar-based station conducted the interview.

The Malaysian leader has been a vocal opponent of the war. In the Al-Jazeera interview, he said the U.S. was trying to strip Iraq of the ability to defend itself and to control Iraqi oil.

"But I believe the prime goal is achieving the ambitions of Israel, which is finishing off any source which could threaten Israel in the Middle East region," he added.

He said if the United States succeeded in Iraq, "other countries will feel insecure."

"Syria could be targeted on accusations of helping the Iraqis. Today, there is talk of cooperation between Pakistan and other countries on nuclear technology and it is believed to possess weapons of mass destruction. We don't know whether those (next U.S.) targets will be Pakistan and Syria for the same reasons that they are countries threatening the United States. So any country will feel insecure, among them Iran."

Mahathir said hopes to restore an international order he said was shattered by the U.S. decision to attack Iraq despite opposition from other members of the United Nations are pinned on cooperation among countries opposed to war.

"But at the same time, in order to stop the United States from proceeding in its behavior, it is for the American people to bring down its government, " he said.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-07   12:46:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Jethro Tull (#23)

I dont understand why this is so hidden... if it's the truth then let the truth be known.. so stupid IMO.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-04-07   12:48:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Neil McIver (#13)

When a jew loans money to another jew, no interest in permitted to be charged. Interest is only permitted when loaned to a non-jew.

Neil, I need a grand. Can you help?

Thanks,
Abe

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-07   12:53:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: freeedom, christine (#8)

I don't think they say whitey much, I hear trailer trash, anglos, also Anglo-Saxons seems to be the new, popular buzzword for European peoples, no matter what area of Europe their ancestors were from.

We're just living in times where we are all being programmed to distrust and hate one another. Men are even being encouraged to hate women.

Diana  posted on  2006-04-07   12:58:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Zipporah, all (#24)

Yep, the truth is the truth. We're in Iraq for a few reasons, one chief reason is the safety and security of Israel. Shall we google the phrase the NEW MIDDLE EAST? WTF does that mean, except a foreign policy of nation building. I think it's important to be a truth seeker, and part of that quest is to ask the basic question, Who benefits?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-07   13:00:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Jethro Tull (#27)

Shall we google the phrase the NEW MIDDLE EAST? WTF does that mean, except a foreign policy of nation building. I think it's important to be a truth seeker, and part of that quest is to ask the basic question, Who benefits?

Exactly the objective truth no matter where it takes you.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-04-07   13:06:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Neil McIver (#13)

First, christine mentioned "THE topic" not "THE problem". That's an important distinction.

You're right, but I made a logical step from there. This is a political discussion forum, and if Jews are THE topic, and we're not happy about the way things are, I think we can presume that they are THE problem. Am I wrong?

But many people that are pro-jew / act in defense of jews consider criticism of Israel to be a veiled slam on jews, and therefore shouldn't be permitted. Those people taking that stance are wrong and I believe it's reasonable and correct to point that out to them.

I do not number among them.

I believe that false and excessive cries of anti-semitism, such as the prosecution of so-called holocaust deniers in Europe do the jews far more harm than letting people question the number of jewish dead in WWII Europe. Why isn't questioning the number of Ukrainian dead under Stalin also a crime?

I agree, censorship is dangerous, and particularly so when conducted by governments. I agree with you that prosecuting holocaust deniers is dangerous, and I would also object to criminalizing, say, questioning the number of Ukranian dead.

Third, jewry is not really a race. It's a religion, or more of a religion than a race.

You're being excessively pedantic. I doubt that when Horse posts, "The Jews are in control of the press" he means, practicing religious Jews.

Racially speaking, arabs are of the same blood line as jews, and in fact, "semite" refers equally to arabs and jews alike.

I confess to using the term colloquially. But tell me, when Horse posts "The Jews control the press" - does his use of the term "Jew" have any more subtlety or complexity than my informal use of the term "anti-Semitic" does? I don't think so.

But in terms of religion, anyone converting to judaism is considered a full blood jew, so they seem to consider the faith aspect as the primary defining factor. With that distiction, they really enjoy the same protection as islamic "ragheads", if you follow.

Sort of. But once again, I don't think those who own the media outlets are practicing, devout Jews, so I believe you and Horse disagree, even though you are apparently coming to his defense.

Fourth, one practice among jews which is very arguably discriminatory involves the matter of money. Again, I was told this from a jew and you can verify it anywhere, including the Old Testament. When a jew loans money to another jew, no interest in permitted to be charged. Interest is only permitted when loaned to a non-jew. This is a factual statement, not an anti-semite statement.

There are a lot of things that are objectively in the Bible, e.g. stoning adulterers, that are (fortunately) long gone (except in radical Islam). I highly doubt that Jews don't pay margin interest or mortgage interest, even though some brokers and loan officers are undoutedly Jewish. (Or, ~all of them if you actually believed that Jews "control" banks and brokerage houses.)

What does it mean? It means that jews do treat people differently based on their religion, discriminating against non-jews, which runs contrary to modern day political correctness which seems to bind all other political & religious sectors within the USA.

I have no evidence that Jews, today, actually do this. Do you? The fact it's in their holy book doesn't mean it's still practiced. One difference, though, is that another certain holy book says it's ok to kill infidels, and there's plenty of evidence right now that they still want to, plan to, and do so in great numbers. If you want to talk about political correctness.

freeedom  posted on  2006-04-07   13:29:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: christine (#15)

Not at all. I wrote "I don't think it should be censored, but I don't think it should be ignored, either." on the other Einstein thread. Perhaps you missed it, so I'm including the link for your convenience.

freeedom  posted on  2006-04-07   13:33:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Zipporah, Jethro Tull, christine, Neil McIver, Horse, freedom, phaedrus (#28)

Shall we google the phrase the NEW MIDDLE EAST? WTF does that mean, except a foreign policy of nation building. I think it's important to be a truth seeker, and part of that quest is to ask the basic question, Who benefits?

That Einstein was a plagiarist and that the Jewish people control the press in America. (from the poster's comment)

Can you not see the difference between

legitimately questioning the Israeli government (and its agents, or even its citizens) for what they have done

vs

Accusing Einstein of plagerism because he's Jewish and the press for hiding it because they're controlled by Jews (ie accusations based on who they are, rather than the actions they actually committed)?

Were Einstein merely included in a larger heterogenous group of alleged plagerists, there might be a point, but it does seem he was singled out for accusation based on a Jewish connection, not on a scientific peer review.

Do we not advocate freedom and the rule of law for all, regardless of race?

We should be questioning/discussing what specific people or organizations have done, not for what racial or religious heiritage we impute to them.

It's one thing to note that terrorists praise Allah and then wrap themselves in bombs and blow up people, and make the connection that those Muslim or Islamic terrorists kill people.

But it's quite another (and wrong) to imply that Muslims or Islamists as an ethnic group are terrorists.

The same applies to Jews. Castigate (or accuse) specific individuals (or organizations) for what they have done, not for what ethnic background they belong.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-07   13:35:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: freeedom (#29)

I agree, censorship is dangerous, and particularly so when conducted by governments. I agree with you that prosecuting holocaust deniers is dangerous, and I would also object to criminalizing, say, questioning the number of Ukranian dead.

Well then, we live in a dangerous world. In many nations the discussion of what you mention above is a crime. IMHO, that thought is coming to America. Why do you believe that the topic of the holocaust has been made illegal?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-07   13:39:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Starwind (#31)

I dont have a 'dog' in this fight Starwind I've not read the entire article I havent had time.. My comment was to JT.. re the war in Iraq nothing more or less.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-04-07   13:39:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Starwind (#31)

The same applies to Jews. Castigate (or accuse) specific individuals

That's a nice thought, but that isn't the real world Starwind. We tend to generalize. Blame it on the human condition. I see nothing nefarious here. As a Catholic, why is it I don't become hypersensitive when my religion is discussed? No one I know does. Plug in Jew for Catholic, and some take offense. That’s their problem.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-07   13:48:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Jethro Tull (#32)

Why do you believe that the topic of the holocaust has been made illegal?

I don't have a good answer for that. It probably has to do with European guilt over allowing the Holocaust to happen, but it could be something else. (It could also be because The Jooooos control everything, but I reject that argument.)

One thing I'll stand by: there are a lot of foolish, dangerous, or outright insane people in positions of political power everywhere across the globe, and one shouldn't look to the duly enacted laws of any country as paragons of reason, rationality, beneficence, or virtue.

freeedom  posted on  2006-04-07   13:50:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Jethro Tull (#34)

That's a nice thought, but that isn't the real world Starwind. We tend to generalize. Blame it on the human condition. I see nothing nefarious here.

Agreed. I'm advocating the 'ideal'.

As a Catholic, why is it I don't become hypersensitive when my religion is discussed? No one I know does.

But if this forum 'generalized' only against catholics, or if numerous posts mentioning Ted Kennedy (or any Kennedy) generalized about Irish Catholics being the cause of the world's problems, the forum would begin to take on a distinctly different taint, would it not?

Plug in Jew for Catholic, and some take offense. That's their problem.

Freedom rightly noted a "simmering anti-semitism", and in absence on this forum of any simmering anti-catholicism, or simmmering anti-Islamism, etc, then it would appear Jews are singled out more often than not, and as this is intended to be an uncensored discussion forum, he ought to be able to call attention to it without someone taking offense, No?

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-07   13:59:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: christine, freeedom, Phaedrus (#15)

So basically if you owned this forum, you'd censor the posts of those you deem are racist or anti-semite or posts that, in your opinion, are not the truth

The irony here is that doing this promotes the very paranoia that is trying to be averted, just as Zundel's prosecution is promoting. People see that and the cite it as evidence of control by jewish or zionist interests albeit indirect.

Seeing Zundel get prosecuted makes me personally sympathize with those crying foul against the Jews. Zundel committed no crime worthy of a single minute behind bars.

I don't like such paranoia and the best way to dispel it is to permit candid discussion.

Neil McIver  posted on  2006-04-07   14:06:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: freeedom (#35)

"The Jooooos "

now may I ask what was the point of the use of this ?? Was it to then undermine ANY objective discussion of the topic making it seem as if they're KOOKS or racists of some type??? SO if anyone says anything critical of Israel or our foreign policy AIPAC or spying or anything else. Will then then feel that this will be used on them?? I think it's outrageous that in an open discussion that people must use hot button words in order to sway discussion but have at it.. since this is a free speech forum.. just thought I'd ask.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-04-07   14:07:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Zipporah (#20)

Well.. it is both Neil. Judaism is a religion true.. but THEY see themselves as a race.. Jewish atheists see themselves as Jews.. so if it were religion then how would that apply??

Because anyone with a Jewish mother is also considered a jew even if as a convert.

I pointed out the other day that this means that if any one of your maternal ancestors was a converted or bloodline jew, then you are a jew. You could be a jew and not know it. In fact there's no way you can certain you are NOT a jew.

Neil McIver  posted on  2006-04-07   14:11:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Zipporah (#38)

I was lampooning those who use the word that way, and say it that way. As might already be clear from my other posts, I don't have much respect for those people, and I think they're entirely worthy of ridicule.

freeedom  posted on  2006-04-07   14:17:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Neil McIver, Christine (#37)

I don't like such paranoia and the best way to dispel it is to permit candid discussion.

This is pretty weak, Neil. I presume you would not permit someone advocating the killing of blacks, or Jews, or whomever, on this forum were it your decision (or Christine's, for that matter). So you DO have lines that are not to be crossed. We're talking about the best place to draw the line, which is always somewhat subjective. And someone has to do it. They will not necessarily be popular but they can be respected. Is this forum about popularity or something more worthy?

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-04-07   14:20:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: freeedom (#29)

You're right, but I made a logical step from there. This is a political discussion forum, and if Jews are THE topic, and we're not happy about the way things are, I think we can presume that they are THE problem. Am I wrong?

I'd say yes, you're wrong, as "presuming" on a discussion forum doesn't work very well.

You're being excessively pedantic. I doubt that when Horse posts, "The Jews are in control of the press" he means, practicing religious Jews.

Well, maybe not but if "jew" means differet things to different people then that needs to be clarified.

Racially speaking, arabs are of the same blood line as jews, and in fact, "semite" refers equally to arabs and jews alike.

I confess to using the term colloquially. But tell me, when Horse posts "The Jews control the press" - does his use of the term "Jew" have any more subtlety or complexity than my informal use of the term "anti-Semitic" does? I don't think so.

Sure, the term anti-semite has come to mean "anti-jew" in todays language.

Sort of. But once again, I don't think those who own the media outlets are practicing, devout Jews, so I believe you and Horse disagree, even though you are apparently coming to his defense.

Again, then we have confusion over what "jew" actually means.

There are a lot of things that are objectively in the Bible, e.g. stoning adulterers, that are (fortunately) long gone (except in radical Islam). I highly doubt that Jews don't pay margin interest or mortgage interest, even though some brokers and loan officers are undoutedly Jewish. (Or, ~all of them if you actually believed that Jews "control" banks and brokerage houses.)

I don't know what the actual practice is, but it's my firm understanding that it's a general teaching that jews do not charge each other interest. Perhaps there are marginal exceptions.

I have no evidence that Jews, today, actually do this. Do you? The fact it's in their holy book doesn't mean it's still practiced.

It should be easy to verify or dispel whether this is practiced today. Good idea to check. But I was informed by a practicing jew that it is in fact the case. I'm open to correction.

One difference, though, is that another certain holy book says it's ok to kill infidels, and there's plenty of evidence right now that they still want to, plan to, and do so in great numbers. If you want to talk about political correctness.

Fair enough point and any muslim that tries to carry this out ought to, if necessary be gunned down before hand in self defense of the jew/christian/hindu/buddest/whatever (infidel, I suppose).

Neil McIver  posted on  2006-04-07   14:29:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Starwind (#31)

Can you not see the difference between

legitimately questioning the Israeli government (and its agents, or even its citizens) for what they have done

vs

Accusing Einstein of plagerism because he's Jewish and the press for hiding it because they're controlled by Jews (ie accusations based on who they are, rather than the actions they actually committed)?

I can, sure. And for the record, I am hard pressed to downgrade Einstein from his status as a brilliant scientist. Had he died shortly after his publication, then there'd be question, but there's no way he could have continued to lead in his field if all credit for his genius actually belonged to another. His source would have quickly been recognized as the true genius and supplanted Einstein.

Perhaps there is some truth in this other fellow's studies, but if so I'd consider it likely an exceptional matter to Einstein's record.

Neil McIver  posted on  2006-04-07   14:44:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Starwind (#31)

But it's quite another (and wrong) to imply that Muslims or Islamists as an ethnic group are terrorists.

Not on its face, it's not.


I use antlers in all of my decorating.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-04-07   14:48:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Neil McIver (#42)

I'd say yes, you're wrong, as "presuming" on a discussion forum doesn't work very well.

Ok, fair enough. I won't presume anything. Please tell me: what exactly is meant to be conveyed, when someone writes that Jews are "THE" issue. Not "an" issue, capital T-H-E issue. Enlighten me, please.

[Re: Horse's comment] Well, maybe not but if "jew" means differet things to different people then that needs to be clarified.

What possible meaning could it have that makes "The Jews control the press" somehow a reasonable position to take in an argument? Please enlighten me here, too.

I don't know what the actual practice is, but it's my firm understanding that it's a general teaching that jews do not charge each other interest. Perhaps there are marginal exceptions.

So you don't know, and I don't either. Let's suppose you're correct, however. For the sake of argument: Jews don't charge each other interest. So what? Family members sometimes don't charge each other interest either, maybe that means Jews just think of each other as family members. Does this somehow justify the discrimination and persecution that has resulted? Would this fact have any bearing on whether "the Jews control the press" or whatnot? No and no. So there must be something else to it. Incidentally, it might be in violation of law for "non-arms-length transactions" to occur - in which case, prosecute or change the law.

Fair enough point and any muslim that tries to carry this out ought to, if necessary be gunned down before hand in self defense of the jew/christian/hindu/buddest/whatever (infidel, I suppose).

Careful there!! You're one millimeter away from justifying the invasion of Iraq, and the ongoing War On Terror.

freeedom  posted on  2006-04-07   14:48:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: freeedom, Neil McIver (#29)

One difference, though, is that another certain holy book says it's ok to kill infidels, and there's plenty of evidence right now that they still want to, plan to, and do so in great numbers.

The way people practice their religion has a lot to do with their cultural attitudes and characteristics. The majority of muslims just want to live their lives and live right, and yes, peacefully. There are indeed the fanatics who want to kill infidels, but those types are found in all major religions.

A few years ago in India a bunch of Hindus went on a rampage killing muslims in their mist. Someone tried to post that article on FR but it was taken down right away as all muslims must be bad guys now and never victims.

Diana  posted on  2006-04-07   14:49:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Starwind (#31)

We should be questioning/discussing what specific people or organizations have done, not for what racial or religious heiritage we impute to them.

Well said.

Diana  posted on  2006-04-07   14:53:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: freeedom, Jethro Tull (#35)

To: Jethro Tull

Why do you believe that the topic of the holocaust has been made illegal?

I don't have a good answer for that. It probably has to do with European guilt over allowing the Holocaust to happen,

I don't buy that reasoning, too many Europeans suffered and died as well during WWII.

Most European countries fought against Germany, some countries were occupied by them; for instance the Dutch hate the Germans to this day for the starvation and maltreatment of the Dutch people by the German occupiers, though there was a scarcity of food all over Europe as the allies and Germany bombed many railroads halting shipment of supplies including food, plus most of the men were engaged in war.

The whole nazi thing has morphed into all of Europe being guilty for what Hitler did to the Jews.

Time has a way of changing factual history.

Diana  posted on  2006-04-07   15:04:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Phaedrus (#41)

I presume you would not permit someone advocating the killing of blacks, or Jews, or whomever, on this forum were it your decision (or Christine's, for that matter).

Correct, of course.

So you DO have lines that are not to be crossed. We're talking about the best place to draw the line, which is always somewhat subjective. And someone has to do it. They will not necessarily be popular but they can be respected. Is this forum about popularity or something more worthy?

What constitutes "more worthy" is subjective. To me, quashing reports on Zundel's prosecution would be bad, as would his case that the number of Jews (and others) killed in Auzwich (sp?) is/must have been far less than the 4.2 million accepted for the first 40 years after WWII. Along with that, discussion about the powers that are behind his prosecution must be permitted, and that would target the jewish lobby. But I also agree with and have echoed Starwind's point that blaming alleged plagerism on one person who happened to be jewish on a jewish conspiracy is unwarranted.

I guess I'm just saying that overreaction by jews/jewish interests, which does and is happening (ref: Zundel), helps to promote the very so-called anti-semitism that jews claim is victimizing them. And as I said, seeing what's happening to Zundel, for me, lends credence to those who claim there is a pro-jewish conspiracy.

In fact, I'm not sure how anyone could disagree that Zundel's prosecution makes jews look bad.

Neil McIver  posted on  2006-04-07   15:08:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Horse, christine, Zipporah (#0)

Is it okay if I just delete the bulk of the article? The book excerpts could be reposted, but it's messing up the thread and the bulk of the article is not readable in it's present form anyway. May I?

Besides that, the joooos are holding me at knifepoint and they'd appreciate it as well.

Neil McIver  posted on  2006-04-07   15:14:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Diana (#47)

Let's talk about apples; it's hard for people to identify with individual apples.

Suppose you want to make apple pie, and you have a dozen apples. Suppose also that you are informed, just as you begin, that one of the apples will make you ill.

Do you use them all in the pies? Toss them all out and get a new batch? Or try to identify which one is the bad one?

Suppose you can draw from two batches. Apples from the first batch come with a 1/1000 chance of illness. Apples from the second 1 in 50. Do you draw from both batches, neither, one of them, do some testing? Maybe the second batch is cheaper; or the severity of illness is not the same.

The answer depends on the relative costs and benefits -- to you, as measured by you -- of each of the options available to you.

Is it wrong to say to someone "don't get that second kind -- it'll make you sick"?

(The making of a chocolate shake would work equally well as an example.)


I use antlers in all of my decorating.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-04-07   15:15:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Phaedrus, christine, Neil McIver, ALL (#41)

This is pretty weak, Neil. I presume you would not permit someone advocating the killing of blacks, or Jews, or whomever, on this forum were it your decision (or Christine's, for that matter). So you DO have lines that are not to be crossed. We're talking about the best place to draw the line, which is always somewhat subjective. And someone has to do it. They will not necessarily be popular but they can be respected. Is this forum about popularity or something more worthy?

FIRST an FYI ..

Christine and *I* are the forum owners of 4 ..NEIL is our paid webmaster and what he has said is his opinion.. that I suppose had to be stated YET again..

AND I as one of the forum owners, *I* DO NOT appreciate YOU making it sound as if discussion and/or criticism can be equated to as YOU put it "advocating the killing of blacks, or Jew, or whomever".. SO who draws the lines here on matters for discussion? YOU? This is and will remain a free speech forum .. topics of discussion will not be censored.. other than advocating violence in some form.. or other things that are illegal. That's it in a nutshell..plain and simple END of that discussion.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-04-07   15:21:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Neil McIver (#50)

Is it okay if I just delete the bulk of the article? The book excerpts could be reposted, but it's messing up the thread and the bulk of the article is not readable in it's present form anyway. May I?

Besides that, the joooos are holding me at knifepoint and they'd appreciate it as well.

:P

Fine with me Neil.. whatever works at this point.. just watch your back ;P

Zipporah  posted on  2006-04-07   15:23:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: freeedom, Starwind (#35)

Have you read this? Please do if you haven’t. Its been ripped as anti-Semitic by all the usual suspects. I agree with every word. Neither the scholarship nor the authors can be impeached, so the attack has come from the pro censorship mob. The actual paper from which this critique was taken is some 50 odd pages. Read that also, if you have the time. I believe every word of this paper. Do you? If not, why not?

The Israel Lobby

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-07   15:25:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Tauzero (#51)

Comparing people with apples is like comparing oranges with apples (something like that).

It's far easier for people to say nasty things about others than to say good things, and people prefer to believe the nasty things, so a lot gets blown out of proportion on both sides, like all Jews want to kill us, or all European peoples are responsible for nazi Germany.

Then people burn with anger and lust for revenge and the killings start back and forth and the never-ending cycle continues.

Diana  posted on  2006-04-07   15:31:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Jethro Tull (#54)

Neither the scholarship

There are some bits that are questionable, IMO. But it's interesting, because it's those bits that have been seized on by critics -- the hope being that those who have not yet read it won't.

The other criticisms are that it doesn't address the whole picture (which is true), or doesn't adequately address some aspect of particular importance to the critic. This is normal in peer review. But peer review is often just a mechanism for orthodoxy, even in the hard sciences.

As the authors say, those other aspects have been addressed elsewhere by others.


I use antlers in all of my decorating.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-04-07   15:41:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: freeedom (#45)

For the sake of argument: Jews don't charge each other interest. So what? Family members sometimes don't charge each other interest either, maybe that means Jews just think of each other as family members. Does this somehow justify the discrimination and persecution that has resulted?

It is true that when people unite economically, they become more powerful than the sum of their parts. It is thereby possible for a minority of people to obtain disproportionate control over a majority that doesn't simalarly unite. This is why the USA, having just 5% of the world's population, became a dominent world power, and why the European union came about, to unite the various independent countries into an economic force greater than the sum of it's parts.

So unfortunately, if this principle is applied to a special segment of people based on religion, skin color, hair color, whatever, then I do believe it's possible for that group to, on average, rise in social status above, on average, those not in the group.

Does that mean that people have no inherent right to give preferential economic treatment to whomever they will? Well, first tell me if it's alright for a white store owner to refuse to sell stuff to blacks. There are good arguments to answer yes and no.

Would this fact have any bearing on whether "the Jews control the press" or whatnot? No and no.

With increased economic power comes increased social power. For purposes of this discussion that's unfortunate, as it does lay a *theoretical* groundwork for supporting a so-called "jew conspiracy" of media control. Again, this is IF jews have a preferential economic system in place that aids jews above and beyond that of non-jews, which beyond the interest charging practices, I do not know/believe to exist. Again, I'll emphasize this is *theoretical* on my part only. I'm not citing evidence, only theory, and this theory can just as easily apply to tall skinny people taking advantage of people who are not both tall and skinny.

Careful there!! You're one millimeter away from justifying the invasion of Iraq, and the ongoing War On Terror.

Not at all. Please don't make me barf.

Neil McIver  posted on  2006-04-07   15:43:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: Diana (#46)

The majority of muslims just want to live their lives and live right, and yes, peacefully. There are indeed the fanatics who want to kill infidels, but those types are found in all major religions.

I've made this point many times. There are about a billion muslims in the world. If all of them, or even a substantial minority, took the kill the infidels literally, then we would not be at nearly the relative state of peace we are in today. It would be far, far worse, even considering Iraq and the presence of Israel.

Neil McIver  posted on  2006-04-07   15:47:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Diana (#55)

Comparing people with apples is like comparing oranges with apples (something like that).

Certainly it's hard for people to think in a disinterested way about the Apple of God's Eye.


I use antlers in all of my decorating.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-04-07   15:48:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: Tauzero (#56)

There are some bits that are questionable

I agree, after all nothing has come down from the Mount recently, but all things considered - it's dead on :)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-07   15:53:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Jethro Tull, ALL (#60)

The Delphi method and consensus building

The Delphi method has traditionally been a technique aimed at building an agreement, or consensus about an opinion or view, without necessarily having people meet face to face, such as through surveys, questionnaires, emails etc. This technique, if used effectively, can be highly efficient and generate new knowledge.

To build consensus, the Delphi method often uses the Hegelian dialectic process of thesis (establishing an opinion or view), antithesis (conflicting opinion or view) and finally synthesis (a new agreement or consensus), with synthesis becoming the new thesis. All participants in the process shall then either change their views to align with the new thesis, or support the new thesis, to establish a new common view. The goal is a continual evolution towards 'oneness of mind', or consensus on the opinion or view.

Role of the facilitator

The person co-ordinating the Delphi method can be known as a facilitator, and facilitates the responses of their panel of experts, who are selected for a reason, usually that they hold knowledge on an opinion or view. The facilitator sends out questionnaires, surveys etc. and if the panel of experts accept, they follow instructions and present their views. Responses are collected and analysed, then common and conflicting viewpoints are identified. If consensus is not reached, the process continues through thesis and antithesis, to gradually work towards synthesis, and building consensus.

Zipporah  posted on  2006-04-07   16:09:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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