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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: From the China Lobby to the Israel Lobby
Source: Anti War
URL Source: http://www.antiwar.com/orig/hadar.php?articleid=8845
Published: Apr 13, 2006
Author: Leon Hadar
Post Date: 2006-04-13 02:01:20 by robin
Ping List: *US is Proxy State For Israel*     Subscribe to *US is Proxy State For Israel*
Keywords: AIPAC, Israel, Lobby
Views: 558
Comments: 53

From the China Lobby to the Israel Lobby
Rent-seeking in US foreign policy
by Leon Hadar

For about two decades after World War II, a powerful coalition of U.S. congressmen, publishers, businessmen, and military generals operating close to the highest levels of government in Washington tried to ensure that the United States would not recognize "Red China" and would continue backing Taiwan (the Republic of China) in its goal of ousting the Communist regime in Beijing. The coalition included figures such as Republican Sen. Richard Nixon; Henry Luce, the publisher of the Time and Life magazines; his wife, Clare Boothe Luce; and renowned author Pearl Buck (The Good Earth).

Indeed, the common perception in Washington was that the so-called China lobby was politically invincible and that no U.S. president would dare challenge it by taking steps to establish ties with the People's Republic of China.

I was reminded of the China lobby when I was attending an event in Washington last week where the main topic of discussion was a controversial study by two noted American political scientists [.pdf] who allege that the Israel lobby exerts enormous influence on U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East by tilting it in a pro-Israel direction.

The two scholars – Professors John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen Walt of Harvard University – argue in their report, "The Israel Lobby" (which was published in a condensed version in the London Review of Books), that the powerful lobbying group the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), as well individuals operating in the bureaucracy, think tanks, and editorial pages are responsible for the pro-Israeli slant of U.S. policymaking and of the American media.

"No lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially the same," Mearsheimer and Walt write. "The United States has a terrorism problem in good part," they add a few pages later, "because it is so closely allied with Israel, not the other way around."

The study ignited very strong reactions not only in the media and academic circles but also among many bloggers who criticize the authors for questioning the loyalty of American Jews who support Israel and for perpetuating anti-Semitic stereotypes.

Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz called the study "paranoid and conspiratorial," while military historian Eliot Cohen described it as "anti-Semitic" in an op-ed in the Washington Post.

Indeed, following some of this bashing of the two scholars, one would have to conclude that they had authored a sequel to Hitler's Mein Kampf. This kind of criticism is unfair and, in a way, malicious. Criticizing Israel and/or those lobbying on its behalf in Washington should not be equated with "anti-Semitism" in the same way that criticism of "affirmative action" policies, Zimbabwe's Robert Mugabe, or South Africa's AIDS policies should not be regarded as "racism."

Israel and its political lobby in the U.S. are political entities that promote a specific interpretation of the political concept of Jewish nationalism (Zionism) that is not shared by most of the Jews who do not live in Israel, nor by the more than 25 percent of Israeli citizens who are not Jewish.

Whether an American citizen supports close ties with Israel depends on whether he or she perceives that to be in line with U.S. interests and/or values, not on whether he or she is pro- or anti-Semitic.

In fact, some U.S. political figures, such as Presidents Richard Nixon and Harry Truman, who shared some negative stereotypes of Jews, were still in favor of strong political ties with Israel, while many American Jews have been very critical of Israeli policies.

So if Mearsheimer and Walt have concluded that Israel is pursuing policies that run contrary to U.S. interests and/or values, raising that as part of public discourse is as legitimate as if the two were criticizing U.S. ties to France or Japan. Similarly, the Israel lobby should not be treated any differently than other domestic or foreign interests, including those of Saudi Arabia. In the same way, one has the right to challenge any critic of Israel or its lobby by challenging the criticism on its merit, not by applying "negative stereotypes" to the critic, that is by suggesting that he or she is an anti-Semite.

Unlike many of the critics of Mearsheimer and Walt, I have actually read their study and cannot find any flaw with their argument that the Israel lobby in the form of AIPAC, not unlike the old China lobby, is a very powerful player with enormous political and financial resources, and exerts a lot of influence on the executive and legislative branches when it comes to U.S. policy toward Israel and in the Middle East.

I also agree in general with their observation that there is a very influential pro-Israel community in the U.S. that includes many influential Jews and non-Jews (including many evangelical Christians). It seems to me that Israel and its supporters in America should be proud of their success in mobilizing so much support for that country.

That explains why so many foreign countries envy Israel and try to model their lobbying efforts in Washington after AIPAC and its satellites. To put it differently, you cannot have it both ways. If Coca-Cola succeeds in becoming the most popular soft drink in America, it cannot then bash those who point to that fact by accusing them of exhibiting "anti-Coca-Colaism."

Moreover, the two authors are correct in pointing out the role of neoconservative ideologues and policymakers, most of whom would describe themselves as supporters of Israel, in driving the U.S. into the war in Iraq and the costly Imperial-Wilsonian project in the Middle East. Many of these neocons accept as an axiom that what is good for Israel is good for America, and vice-versa, and that American hegemony in the Middle East helps protect Israel while Israel helps secure American hegemony there.

Mearsheimer and Walt, like many other analysts, disagree with that axiom and insist that American and Israeli interests are not always compatible. Interestingly enough, while there is a growing recognition in Washington that the invasion of Iraq and the entire neocon agenda of "democratizing" the Middle East have run contrary to U.S. interests, many Israelis also seem to be reaching the same conclusion: this agenda harms long-term Israeli interests by destabilizing the Middle East.

There is no doubt that U.S. support for Israel has been responsible for much of the Arab hostility toward Washington. Ending the alliance with Israel would certainly reduce some of the Arab hostility and, by extension, the costs of U.S. intervention in the Middle East.

But it is the U.S. intervention in the region in its totality – support for Israel AND the alliances with the pro-American Arab regimes – that is responsible for the current anti-American sentiment in the Arab world.

The Israel lobby, like the Saudi lobby or the Iraqis who lobbied for U.S. invasion of their country, could be compared to what economists refer to as "rent seekers," that is interest groups who profit from government policies, in this case U.S. interventionist policies in the Middle East.

From this more balanced perspective, the Israel lobby is no more responsible for current U.S. policies in the Middle East than the China lobby was responsible for U.S. policies in East Asia in the 1950s and 1960s (which were then driven mostly by Cold War-era strategic considerations).

Powerful lobbies can only operate and thrive in the context of existing consensus in Washington over the U.S. national interest. When that consensus changes, any lobby, even the most powerful one, loses its influence and its relevance.

US presidents have resisted the power of the Israel lobby in the past when it came to crucial decisions like selling arms to pro-American Arab countries or pressing Israel to make concessions as part of the peace process.

That President George W. Bush and his top foreign policy aides (Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice) have decided to adopt the neocon agenda has to do with their perception of U.S. national interests, not the power of the Israel lobby or, for that matter, American Jews (the majority of whom did not vote for Bush and were against the war in Iraq).

And if and when Bush or another U.S. president decides to change policies in the Middle East based on a calculation of American interests – for example, by launching an opening to Iran – even the most powerful lobby in Washington will not be able to prevent him or her from doing that.


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#14. To: Starwind (#8)

AIPAC did a lot more than a smear campaign, that's my point. They forced Harvard to drop their name from the study. They are stifling debate and the study is not discussed by MSM.

I think you missed my point about dual-citizenship. I was referring to the Israeli dual citizens who are making our foreign policy. And you made my point by explaining that we never had Chinese dual citizens in our govt.

He is trying to minimize the damage AIPAC caused by its overt reaction to this study. He is not succeeding, his arguments are conflicted and weak.

Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams, Douglas Feith, Scooter Libby, Dov Zakheim, all the PNAC group who wrote in the 90s of a need for a "Pearl Harbor event" are making the foreign policies of this administration.

Cheney may be too busy picking his nose (according to another thread this morning), but his office is the vortex of evil, as far as I can tell by allowing these treasonous, dual-citizen CHICKENHAWKs to send our troops to fight whoever Israel imagines to be its enemies.

”We have room but for one flag... We have room but for one language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty, and that is the loyality to the American people.” - Theodore Roosevelt

robin  posted on  2006-04-13   14:08:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: Jethro Tull (#11)

Has the Hispanic/Chinese/Korean/gay/transexual LOBBY ever put together a PNAC-like study?

well, maybe/depends/yes/no.

re Hispanic; La Raza puts out papers periodically, but not on the scope of PNAC.

re China; Yes, but these plans are published not in a single "Project for a New Chinese Century" but rather inferred or implied in announcing various smaller, specific policy changes within the Chinese government, how they vote in the UN, and negotiate alliances with countries like Brazil, Egypt, Iran, India, Russia, Nigeria, even Israel, as well as their negotiating position on issues like Taiwan and N. Korea.

re Korea; North Korea, I havn't a clue, its all in the head of Kim Il Sung. As for South Korea, not really aside from its economic plans and participation in ASEAN initiatives.

re gay/transexual (lol) I'm sure they publish one every January to coincide with Oscars, but only in San Francisco street papers.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   14:22:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Starwind (#15)

Your examples above have one thing in common; the advocacy groups you mention weren’t able to mobilize the PTB to 1) invade a sovereign nation, and 2) kill hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens. Perhaps they haven't sufficiently infiltrated the various strata of government as well as our Jewish friends have?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-13   15:11:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: robin (#14)

The Chinese had a good run under the bent regime and now the Mexionists are enjoying their day of influence.

Lod  posted on  2006-04-13   15:35:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: robin, Jethro Tull (#14)

AIPAC did a lot more than a smear campaign, that's my point. They forced Harvard to drop their name from the study.

And Jesse Jackson's "Rainbow/PUSH" routinely 'shook down' corporations for millions of dollars, has evaded IRS prosecution, and was given a pass on his 'love-child' escapade. How many useful changes to rein-in Social Security did Carville and the democrats smear into oblivion. Those changes alone cost the US taxpayer far more than aid to Israel will ever cost - trillions in SS payouts as opposed to billions to Israel. More than smear campaigns likewise, but where did any of that get aired in the MSM either? AIPAC is not all that special in terms of its methods.

They are stifling debate and the study is not discussed by MSM.

Yes, it ought to get discussed more in the press as should the other examples I've listed (and perhaps that is beginning), but IMO there is yet little substance to debate because no one (worth debating) seriously believes there is no Israeli lobby, and the paper itself brings little new to light and continues a one-sided diatribe about 'the problem is all Israel and US policy' as if there were no history involved, no treaties, no oil, no US dollar no Russia, or China, or...

So for the present, useless MSM charges of semitism and antisemitism sell print space and airtime.

I think you missed my point about dual-citizenship. I was referring to the Israeli dual citizens who are making our foreign policy. And you made my point by explaining that we never had Chinese dual citizens in our govt.

They don't need to be "in our government" to be able to persuade our government, Taiwan's continued alliance and protection from the US being ample proof, isn't it.

Sincerely, I didn't think I had missed your point. I thought I understood it clearly and my counterpoint was: well of course there are no Chinese/Taiwanese lobbyists who also have US citizenship, because the US doesn't recognize dual-citizenship for those two countries as well as several dozen others. But the US does recognize dual-citizenship for Israel as well as several dozen other countries (See Dual Citizenship)

And the US can't recognize dual-citizenship for Taiwanese lobbyists because Taiwan is not internationally recognized as a country in its own right - it is a Chinese "protectorate" for lack of a better word. But the US can recognize dual-citizenship Israeli lobbyists - because Israel is recognized internationally as a country in its own right.

It isn't about the influence of the Israeli lobbyists, it is about the US being bound by Chinese/Taiwanese international legal status in ways that it is not bound by Israeli international legal status.

You seem unreasonably, narrowly focused on things Israeli and not looking at the larger prerequisties of international law and recognition. To infer that dual-citizenship Israeli lobbyists are somehow indicative of the lobby's power and influence, and the proof thereof is the absence of dual-citizenship Taiwanese lobbyists, is to ignore differences in the international status of the two countries - no more no less.

Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams, Douglas Feith, Scooter Libby, Dov Zakheim, all the PNAC group who wrote in the 90s of a need for a "Pearl Harbor event" are making the foreign policies of this administration.

(sigh) Ok, you make an impressive case for the influence of the Israeli lobby, and looking back, I can see now how they cunningly persuaded the CIA to first support the Shah of Iran but then reversed to support Iraq against Iran, all the while selling US war technology to the Saudis and Kuwaitis (so no one would suspect they were really Israel's enemies) - pure genius, that. While Israel had the CIA helping Iraq against Iran, Israel bombed Iraq's Osirak reactor all by themselves to save the CIA the embarassment. And fooling the US into retaking Kuwait from Iraq and getting the whole world to help attack Saddam (a master stroke of influence) all to save their steadfast friend, Kuwait. But amazingly, those Machiavelian Israelis then stopped the coalition from destroying Saddam, undoubtedly so Israel could play a little cat & mouse for a dozen years with Saddam while he funded Palestinian bombers in Gaza, well, until 2003 when Israel and the neocons decided to halt the nuclear weapons production Saddam wasn't doing all the while Iran (and N. Korea) were putting the finishing touches on the nuclear weapons production they were doing. And that head-fake with attacking Afghanistan first and not finding Bin Laden (a secret Mossad agent nodoubt) Stunningly brilliant ploys by the Israelis.

And just so no one would get suspicious of their true power and control, they still gave up the Gaza Strip to implement the Road Map for Peace (their own idea, really, it was, honest) and want the US to spend hundreds of billions of dollars to rebuild Iraq (Israel's new bestest friend) while Israel is content with its annual 3 billion.

Yes, the omnipotent, omniscient, albeit somewhat schizophrenic Israeli lobby.

Cheney may be too busy picking his nose (according to another thread this morning), but his office is the vortex of evil, as far as I can tell by allowing these treasonous, dual-citizen CHICKENHAWKs to send our troops to fight whoever Israel imagines to be its enemies.

Don't take your eye off the ball. The problem is Cheney, not the people you think Cheney listens too. Cheney is not malleable. He didn't hire people to tell him what to think (unlike GWB). No, Cheney tells the people he hires what they will think. Cheney, like most executives, has his own agenda, parts of which may align with Israel, but those are merely favors Israel must payback in Cheney's mind and Israel can play ball or roll over. Don't kid yourself.

and Jethro posits:

the advocacy groups you mention weren't able to mobilize the PTB to 1) invade a sovereign nation, and 2) kill hundreds of thousands of innocent citizens. Perhaps they haven't sufficiently infiltrated the various strata of government as well as our Jewish friends have?

Well, you must admit they have already mobilized and invaded a sovereign nation (though how many of the hundreds of thousands of murders can be attributed to the invaders themselves is not clear) but they are most definitely buying up control of strategic companies and technologies and moving production to their homeland. All right from under the noses of those Jewish bankers, media moguls, and lobbyists - killing the goy that lays the golden eggs. But while we're preoccupied with the Jewish Lobby, our country is being overrun and stripped bare internally and will soon be subject to the threats and saber rattling externally from Asia - but at least those pesky Jews won't have Uncle Sam to twist around their finger any more - that'll show 'em.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   20:02:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Starwind (#18)

I really don't understand where you're going with this argument. As I said earlier, if you contend that America isn't in Iraq (and soon to be Iran) to rid Israel of pesky neighboring governments, it's best we move off this topic.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-13   20:35:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Jethro Tull (#19)

As I said earlier, if you contend that America isn't in Iraq (and soon to be Iran) to rid Israel of pesky neighboring governments, it's best we move off this topic.

Apparently I misunderstood your intentions in your 'follow up' posts #11 and #16. My apologies.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   20:38:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Starwind (#8)

If the Israeli lobby is to be defeated, the grounds must be (factually) why its positions are incorrect and what correct positions ought be adopted, but not because 'well, they're Jewish and powerful'.

"No lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially the same," Mearsheimer and Walt write. "The United States has a terrorism problem in good part," they add a few pages later, "because it is so closely allied with Israel, not the other way around."

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2006-04-13   20:42:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Starwind (#18)

And Jesse Jackson's "Rainbow/PUSH" routinely 'shook down' corporations for millions of dollars, has evaded IRS prosecution,

What has that to do with murdering tens of thousands of Iraqis, wounding and killing our troops? How can you derive any sort of comparison?

Can you name the Israeli who told the Knesset not to worry about the U.S. Congress?

We have a suicidal foreign policy due to the influence of AIPAC. Jesse Jackson is a poverty pimp, we all know that. Halliburton, TITAN, BlackwaterUSA, etc. are WARmongering pimps. Cheney etal. are making a mint. My guess is Cheney didn't care which nation was attacked, in fact, he probably would have preferred North Korea, if he ever cared.

”We have room but for one flag... We have room but for one language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty, and that is the loyality to the American people.” - Theodore Roosevelt

robin  posted on  2006-04-13   20:55:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Rube Goldberg (#21)

what the American national interest would otherwise suggest

And where did Mearsheimer and Walt lay out what the "American national interest would otherwise suggest", actually, without Israeli influence?

What would our interests in Iran be regarding Russia and China, assuming Israel didn't exist?

What problems face the US Dollar if Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, begin selling oil for say Eruos instead of dollars, assuming Israel didn't exist?

From whom will the US import oil over the next 10 years and at what impact to the US economy, assuming Israel didn't exist?

What would the US have done when Iraq invaded Kuwait, assuming Israel didn't exist?

Who would the US have supported against the Russians in Afghanistan, assuming Israel didn't exist?

Would the US have supported either Iraq or Iran against each other, assuming Israel didn't exist?

How should the US deal with N. Korea, assuming Israel didn't exist?

I didn't see where Mearsheimer and Walt laid out what those policies, for example, would have been, in hind sight.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   20:59:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Starwind (#20)

No need to apologize, I simply have no idea where you’re going with this. I say Israel, you say Asia. I say war in the Middle East, you counter with hundreds of thousands of murders in America. Where? Who? Pardon my confusion.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-13   21:00:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: robin (#22)

What has that to do with murdering tens of thousands of Iraqis, wounding and killing our troops? How can you derive any sort of comparison?

I'm comparing the more-than-a-smear-campaign tactics of the respective lobbies which you seemed to dispute.

But you have premised the deaths in Iraq are due to Isareli lobbying, and that cause and effect is precisely what is in dispute, and then you compare the impact of Jacksons tactics with your presumed impact of Israeli lobbying.

There is no comparing Jackson's dollars with Iraqi deaths. But I dispute that Israeli lobbying is responsible for Iraqi deaths.

Jesse Jackson is a poverty pimp, we all know that. Halliburton, TITAN, BlackwaterUSA, etc. are WARmongering pimps. Cheney etal. are making a mint. My guess is Cheney didn't care which nation was attacked, in fact, he probably would have preferred North Korea, if he ever cared.

Agreed. Hold them responsible.

We have a suicidal foreign policy due to the influence of AIPAC.

The warmongering you just acknowledged by Halliburton, TITAN, BlackwaterUSA, Cheney et. al. is not the fault of AIPAC.

The responsibility lies with Cheney, Bush, his cabinet, etc.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   21:14:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Jethro Tull (#24)

you counter with hundreds of thousands of murders in America. Where? Who? Pardon my confusion.

You were making the argument that only the Israeli lobby can influence a sovereign invasion.

I obliquely countered that Mexico has already invaded us, and didn't need a lobby to do it, that China is buying us up, and doesn't need a lobby to do it, and when they're done, we'll be done, and the Israeli lobby will have not been the reason of our demise.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   21:18:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Starwind (#25)

Since you didn't answer my question about who said this in the Knesset:

As Hebrew radio Kol Yisrael reported in October, 2001, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon yelled at foreign Minister Shimon Peres during a cabinet meeting, "Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo02282003.html

”We have room but for one flag... We have room but for one language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty, and that is the loyality to the American people.” - Theodore Roosevelt

robin  posted on  2006-04-13   21:21:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Starwind (#26)

and didn't need a lobby to do it,

I beg to differ. They have both houses of congress, big business and the CFR Building a North American Community

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-13   21:22:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Jethro Tull (#28)

I beg to differ. They have both houses of congress, big business and the CFR Building a North American Community

Well, ok then...

Who is cleaning our clock? China, India and Mexico or the Israeli lobby? Who is costing us jobs, industries, land and trillions and who is costing us billions?

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   21:26:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: robin (#27)

As Hebrew radio Kol Yisrael reported in October, 2001, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon yelled at foreign Minister Shimon Peres during a cabinet meeting, "Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."

Fine. If a guy in a coma said it, then it has to be absolutely fact and not showmanship. GWB, OTOH, would never lie to his congress, would he.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   21:28:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Starwind (#29)

I contend that the Israeli lobby is cleaning our clock. It has our ass in gaters in Iraq and the last I heard we've spent in excess of $150 billion developing a democracy that Israel can live with. That isn't to mention the 2,500 dead and 17,000 American wounded. And shall we consider the Iraqi causalities? Now lets follow the sound of the Shofar to Iran, shall we? NO thanks. Iran isn’t a threat to America, nor was Iraq. For the axis of evil, I suggest you look at America, Israel and Britain.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-13   21:40:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Jethro Tull (#31)

I contend that the Israeli lobby is cleaning our clock. It has our ass in gaters in Iraq and the last I heard we've spent in excess of $150 billion developing a democracy that Israel can live with. That isn't to mention the 2, 500 dead and 17,000 American wounded. And shall we consider the Iraqi causalities? Now lets follow the sound of the Shofar to Iran, shall we? NO thanks. Iran isn57;t a threat to America, nor was Iraq. For the axis of evil, I suggest you look at America, Israel and Britain.

Hypothetically, for the sake of argument, lets assume the Israeli lobby is indeed responsible for what you listed.

Does the thousands of Iraqi deaths not pale in comparision to the hundreds of thousands of murders, rapes, thefts, etc committed by the millions of illegal immigrants?

Does the lost infrastruture in Iraq not pale in comparision to the loss of our manufacturing industry to Mexico and China, the loss of our IT and service industry to India?

Does the billions spent in Iraq not pale in comparison to the trillions of dollars in federal debt because we buy from China, Japan and India, etc what we no longer make oursleves?

Does war in Iran not pale in comparison with the prospect of a nuclear exchange with China or Russia over their energy interests in the Middle East?

Even assuming your blaming the Israeli lobby, honestly, where is the greater threat and cost?

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   21:53:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Starwind (#30)

2001

Sharon was not in a coma in 2001.

You work so hard to deny the obvious elephant in the room. There is so much evidence that supports this elephant, but you refuse to acknowledge it. There are threads upon threads on this forum with plenty of facts to support this elephant.

Here's another question for you, why was Bibi Netanyahu the only person warned in advance of the London tube bombings?

”We have room but for one flag... We have room but for one language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty, and that is the loyality to the American people.” - Theodore Roosevelt

robin  posted on  2006-04-13   22:07:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Starwind (#32)

I don’t hold both “problems” to be mutually exclusive. Both have placed us in peril; Both should be identified and destroyed. While one is attacking us domestically, the other has our foreign policy in their back pocket. The invasion is far easier for people to see. While the Lobby is more skillful, it is just as vile.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-13   22:22:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: robin (#33)

Sharon was not in a coma in 2001.

Yes I know. But being in a coma he can't very well make good on his claim, can he. If instead of yelling at his cabinet in private, if he were to say, take the floor in the US House, and yell the exact same words to the assembled House and Senate, we'd see just how much substance there was to Israel's control. But he can't, he's in a coma.

You work so hard to deny the obvious elephant in the room. There is so much evidence that supports this elephant, but you refuse to acknowledge it. There are threads upon threads on this forum with plenty of facts to support this elephant.

What I deny is that the Israeli lobby in fact control US policy to the extent you assume it does. And you assume it because they're Jewish and that's proof enough for you. It isn't for me, and I don't assume Israel's mutual interest in a US friendly middle east regimes is ipso facto the sum total of US policy.

Obviously you'd argue that we would not be in Iraq if Israel didn't exist. Ok, for example, consider my post #23 and answer those questions for starters. Let's see how much influence is really due to the Israeli lobby.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   22:25:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Starwind (#32)

The gifted ones speak in riddles.

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2006-04-13   22:29:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Jethro Tull (#34)

I don't hold both "problems" to be mutually exclusive.

Nor do I.

Both have placed us in peril; Both should be identified and destroyed.

Agreed.

While one is attacking us domestically, the other has our foreign policy in their back pocket. The invasion is far easier for people to see. While the Lobby is more skillful, it is just as vile.

And yet our foreign policy regarding Mexico, Russia, China, India, Japan, etc is not in Israel's back pocket, is it.

But at least we've progressed beyond the 'Israeli lobby controls everything' to there are indeed some deadly US enemies that are not caused by Israel.

This point, is where I contend a truly useful debate on US policy ought to begin - with recognition there is much more in play that just the Israeli lobby. And if Mearsheimer and Walt's paper brought this about, at least it's a start.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   22:33:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Rube Goldberg (#36)

The gifted ones speak in riddles.

You thought these were riddles?

What would our interests in Iran be regarding Russia and China, assuming Israel didn't exist?

What problems face the US Dollar if Iraq, Iran, Venezuela, begin selling oil for say Eruos instead of dollars, assuming Israel didn't exist?

From whom will the US import oil over the next 10 years and at what impact to the US economy, assuming Israel didn't exist?

What would the US have done when Iraq invaded Kuwait, assuming Israel didn't exist?

Who would the US have supported against the Russians in Afghanistan, assuming Israel didn't exist?

Would the US have supported either Iraq or Iran against each other, assuming Israel didn't exist?

How should the US deal with N. Korea, assuming Israel didn't exist?

I didn't see where Mearsheimer and Walt laid out what those policies, for example, would have been, in hind sight.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   22:35:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Starwind (#35)

What I deny is that the Israeli lobby in fact control US policy to the extent you assume it does. And you assume it because they're Jewish and that's proof enough for you. It isn't for me, and I don't assume Israel's mutual interest in a US friendly middle east regimes is ipso facto the sum total of US policy.

Why, pray tell, has America embraced Israel? Out of all the countries in the Middle East why have we stood next to Israel right or wrong? All this ally has given us in return for our unwavering support is an IOU and the scorn of one billion Muslims. Now Starwind, you know economics, how does this square?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-13   22:35:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Starwind (#35)

And you assume it because they're Jewish and that's proof enough for you.

That's a lie. Smearing me doesn't change the facts and the abundant evidence that supports the premise that the Israeli lobby has way too much influence over our foreign policy, to the extent that we are fighting Israel's wars for Israel. We had no enemies in the Middle-East until AFTER 1948.

”We have room but for one flag... We have room but for one language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty, and that is the loyality to the American people.” - Theodore Roosevelt

robin  posted on  2006-04-13   22:40:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Starwind (#37)

This point, is where I contend a truly useful debate on US policy ought to begin - with recognition there is much more in play that just the Israeli lobby. And if Mearsheimer and Walt's paper brought this about, at least it's a start.

I agree.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-13   22:41:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Jethro Tull (#39)

Why, pray tell, has America embraced Israel? Out of all the countries in the Middle East why have we stood next to Israel right or wrong?

I don't believe we've always stood with them when they were wrong. We've pushed them into peace accords they might not have otherwise made (Egypt comes to mind ).

But in fairness they have been in the right often (at least early on in the 20th century) and they were horribly wronged by the British, the Germans, then their Arab & Palestinian neighbors. After a while they got a belly full of it and started fighting backed, excessively in many instances (running girls over with bulldozers for instance), but fighting back because their lives in fact depended on it.

But they have an inarguable legal right to be left to exist in peace, I believe I demonstrated that at http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=23666&Disp=4#C4 and to use a cliche, their enemies drew first blood, second blood, third, a fourth...

There was a time when they were the underdogs, and Americans, I believe, tend to want to come to the defense of underdogs. And there is for some of us, a biblical admonition to "bless" Israel and insofar as that doesn't conflict with God's other "laws" I think it wise to do what is biblical for Israel. Helping them defend against unfair odds is one such action.

I don't agree attacking Iraq as we did would be biblically "blessing Israel", but as I've argued, I don't believe we attacked Iraq for Israel. We had our own agenda, with an expected outcome that mutually benefitted Israel, but that doesn't make Israel responsible for what we undertook.

All this ally has given us in return for our unwavering support is an IOU and the scorn of one billion Muslims. Now Starwind, you know economics, how does this square?

The IOU, as I've mentioned, pales in comparision to what we have cost ourselves. I don't consider the money significant relative to our other problems which are literally thousands of times larger.

But while we do have the scorn of one billion Muslims, I don't agree we've earned it, at least not until now with our abject fiasco in Iraq. But that fiasco is our doing, not the Israli lobby's. The responsibility for our mistakes rests with Bush & Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. Yes, Israel would have benefitted mutually with us had things gone as planned, but that doesn't make them responsible for our mistakes, and hence doesn't make Israel responsible for one billion Muslims scorning us.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   23:05:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: robin (#40)

That's a lie. Smearing me doesn't change the facts and the abundant evidence that supports the premise that the Israeli lobby has way too much influence over our foreign policy, to the extent that we are fighting Israel's wars for Israel.

Then I apologize for assuming I knew your reasons.

We had no enemies in the Middle-East until AFTER 1948.

And your proof that whatever enemies we acquired, say around 1948 and thereafter, were being lawful and fair until we stepped in? In other words, I have no problems making enemies amongst cowards and bullies. I'm open to being shown how our enemies made in the Middle-East resulting from defending Israel AFTER 1948 were anything other than cowards and bullies.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   23:11:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: All (#43)

I've got to go for now. I'll respond to any further posts sometime tomorrow, or at least by the weekend.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-13   23:19:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Starwind (#44)

Night Star.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-04-13   23:22:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Starwind (#42)

We've pushed them into peace accords they might not have otherwise made (Egypt comes to mind ).

The "peace process" has been a sham since its' inception due to the intransigence of the Israelis in every case. Because the Arabs vowed to fight "to the last Egyptian", The Egyptians took the brunt of Arab/Israeli wars. Saddat paid heavily for his gesture and the Israelis took it only as a sign of weakness. With the Egyptians out of the way they could concentrate on loftier goals such as their invasion and occupation of Lebanon for 18 years as well as their intermittent attacks against Syria. The US attacked Iraq for being in violation of seven UN resolutions while, at the same time the Israelis were in violation of sixty-seven. Other than Egypt, what other "peace accords" did we push them into that they haven't already violated? Now bush says that "facts on the ground" whatever the hell that means, have changed so now the U.S. doesn't even support the U.N. resolutions that would have had the Israelis returning to their pre 1967 borders which has been our policy up until now. Bush walking around with Natan Sharanskys' book under his arm and calling Ariel Sharon a "man of peace" doesn't give anybody the impression that we are pushing them anywhere, particularly the Arab street. It looks more like he has capitulated again and allowed them to do whatever they want.

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2006-04-14   0:07:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Starwind, Jethro Tull (#29)

Who is cleaning our clock? China, India and Mexico or the Israeli lobby? Who is costing us jobs, industries, land and trillions and who is costing us billions?

All of the above!

Diana  posted on  2006-04-15   23:17:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: Starwind (#29)

Who is cleaning our clock? China, India and Mexico or the Israeli lobby? Who is costing us jobs, industries, land and trillions and who is costing us billions?

The Bank of England and Wal-Mart. Lend me $56,200 and a DC-3, I can totally quadruple your investment.

Thanks for Prohibition and the war against drugs. Thanks for a country where nobody's allowed to mind their own business. Thanks for a nation of finks. Yes, thanks for all the memories-- all right let's see your arms!- William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2006-04-15   23:28:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Rube Goldberg (#46)

The "peace process" has been a sham since its' inception due to the intransigence of the Israelis in every case.

The peace treaties between Egypt and Israel (March 26, 1979) and Jordan and Israel (October 26, 1994) have been honored by both sides (including Israel returning the Sinai and forcibly removing its own settlers) and remain so to this day. When former enemies have actually made peace with Israel, Israel has honored those treaties.

No other Arab state has been willing to even discuss peace, while Israel's "intransigence" is merely to demand recognition of its legal existence as per UN Res 181 and 242, and for its enemies to give up trying to destroy it. OTOH, the incessant calls for Israel's destruction from 1948 on are at least equally instransigent are they not?

Because the Arabs vowed to fight "to the last Egyptian", The Egyptians took the brunt of Arab/Israeli wars. Saddat paid heavily for his gesture and the Israelis took it only as a sign of weakness.

It was the Israelis who were weak. They very nearly lost the war Saddat started and after the 1st six days wanted a US brokered cease fire but it was Saddat who refused while Egypt and Syria had Israel "on the ropes".

With the Egyptians out of the way they could concentrate on loftier goals such as their invasion and occupation of Lebanon for 18 years as well as their intermittent attacks against Syria.

Yes, well the Israeli's wouldn't have needed to invade Lebabnon were it not for the Syrians that were occuping it for decades (and did until recently) firing rockets on Israel.

The US attacked Iraq for being in violation of seven UN resolutions while, at the same time the Israelis were in violation of sixty-seven.

Not surprisingly those were Israeli "human rights violations" of one form or another whenever Israel deported terrorists, retaliated or preempted terrorist attacks, or assassinated terrorist leaders. Note OTOH no one bothers to file similar resolutions against Hamas, Fatah, the PLO, the PA, etc because they would be voted down by Israel's antagonists in the UN, just as the US vetoed the resolutions against Israel. Both sides have violated human rights, but UN resolutions have proven to be largely political postering.

Other than Egypt, what other "peace accords" did we push them into that they haven't already violated?

They haven't violated the peace with Jordan either, have they.

But what you really seem to want to know is have they stopped being their wife.

so now the U.S. doesn't even support the U.N. resolutions that would have had the Israelis returning to their pre 1967 borders

Pre-1967 borders would be the return of the Sinai to Egypt (done in 1982), and you further ignore that Israel has now (as per Sharon's plan) exited the Gaza Strip (and again forcibly removed their own settlers), but that hasn't stopped Hamas, et al from firing rockets into Israeli villages from Gaza, has it. As far as the Golan Heights are concerned, Syria refuses to discuss peace and only recently withdrew from Lebanon.

The West Bank in actuality has never had any borders formally recognized by Arabs, having rejected that when they rejected UN res 181 (November 29, 1947) and attacked Israel repeatedy thereafter; initially with Arab militias and then in strength by armies of the Arab League the day after Israel declared independence (May 14th 1948), a war the Arab League lost.

Consequently there are no Arab recognized borders to which Israel should return, the Arabs having started and lost three wars attempting to destroy Israel altogether and to date refusing to negotiate a peace (Egypt and Jordan, notably and peacefully, excepted).

Bush walking around with Natan Sharanskys' book under his arm and calling Ariel Sharon a "man of peace" doesn't give anybody the impression that we are pushing them anywhere, particularly the Arab street.

Well, Bush no doubt was moving a door stop around the whitehouse, and "the Arab street" have never been paragons of rational discourse and diplomacy. Sheesh! George Bush and the Arab street. I doubt you could find two worse examples of irrational ignorance on which to base your argument.

It looks more like he has capitulated again and allowed them to do whatever they want.

Well, they apparently "wanted" to withdraw from the Gaza Strip as per the Road Map for Peace, didn't they.

Understand, I'm not arguing the US, neocons, the Zionists, Israel or Jews have been lily white in any of this. But neither have the Arabs and terrorists, and yet the accusations of Israel's intransigence always seem to lose sight of that fact.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-16   20:28:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Starwind (#49)

* Israel’s plan to “disengage” from the Palestinian Gaza Strip is not meant to advance the peace process, but to put it into “formaldehyde”, according to Dov Weisglass, senior advisor to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, who stated that “the significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process…Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda…All with a presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2006-04-17   0:34:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Rube Goldberg (#50)

So Israel is criticized for holding the Gaza Strip and criticized for returning the Gaza Strip; Israel's every concession to a peace plan is deemed as not advancing peace but every terrorist bomb is deemed as forcing Israel to advance peace.

Given that Israel is blamed regardless and there is no peace regardless, they may as well kill their enemies, regardless.

That is the inexorable logic of hate.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-17   2:09:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Starwind (#51)

Given that Israel is blamed regardless and there is no peace regardless, they may as well kill their enemies, regardless.

That's about the size of it.

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2006-04-17   2:18:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Rube Goldberg (#52)

Given that Israel is blamed regardless and there is no peace regardless, they may as well kill their enemies, regardless.

That's about the size of it.

Then let's at least be intellectually honest that nothing Israel does matters to the outcome, does it.

Aside from Israel committing Arab-assisted suicide, there is no genuine peace process to offer Israel, is there.

All the posturing for peace by terrorists, Arabs, the UN, Europe, etc is the real lie, isn't it.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-04-17   2:37:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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