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Title: NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls
Source:
USA Today
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20 ... edatabaseofamericansphonecalls
Published: May 11, 2006
Author: Leslie Cauley
Post Date: 2006-05-11 09:50:46 by Eoghan
Ping List: *Israeli Espionage*
Keywords: None
Views: 2521
Comments: 179
The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY. The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans - most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews. QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS: The NSA record collection program "It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added. For the customers of these companies, it means that the government has detailed records of calls they made - across town or across the country - to family members, co-workers, business contacts and others. The three telecommunications companies are working under contract with the NSA, which launched the program in 2001 shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the sources said. The program is aimed at identifying and tracking suspected terrorists, they said. The sources would talk only under a guarantee of anonymity because the NSA program is secret. Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, nominated Monday by President Bush to become the director of the CIA, headed the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005. In that post, Hayden would have overseen the agency's domestic call-tracking program. Hayden declined to comment about the program. The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop - without warrants - on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database. In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States." As a result, domestic call records - those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders - were believed to be private. Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information. Don Weber, a senior spokesman for the NSA, declined to discuss the agency's operations. "Given the nature of the work we do, it would be irresponsible to comment on actual or alleged operational issues; therefore, we have no information to provide," he said. "However, it is important to note that NSA takes its legal responsibilities seriously and operates within the law." The White House would not discuss the domestic call-tracking program. "There is no domestic surveillance without court approval," said Dana Perino, deputy press secretary, referring to actual eavesdropping. She added that all national intelligence activities undertaken by the federal government "are lawful, necessary and required for the pursuit of al-Qaeda and affiliated terrorists." All government-sponsored intelligence activities "are carefully reviewed and monitored," Perino said. She also noted that "all appropriate members of Congress have been briefed on the intelligence efforts of the United States." The government is collecting "external" data on domestic phone calls but is not intercepting "internals," a term for the actual content of the communication, according to a U.S. intelligence official familiar with the program. This kind of data collection from phone companies is not uncommon; it's been done before, though never on this large a scale, the official said. The data are used for "social network analysis," the official said, meaning to study how terrorist networks contact each other and how they are tied together. Carriers uniquely positioned AT&T recently merged with SBC and kept the AT&T name. Verizon, BellSouth and AT&T are the nation's three biggest telecommunications companies; they provide local and wireless phone service to more than 200 million customers. The three carriers control vast networks with the latest communications technologies. They provide an array of services: local and long-distance calling, wireless and high-speed broadband, including video. Their direct access to millions of homes and businesses has them uniquely positioned to help the government keep tabs on the calling habits of Americans. Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to help the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest declined to participate because it was uneasy about the legal implications of handing over customer information to the government without warrants. Qwest's refusal to participate has left the NSA with a hole in its database. Based in Denver, Qwest provides local phone service to 14 million customers in 14 states in the West and Northwest. But AT&T and Verizon also provide some services - primarily long-distance and wireless - to people who live in Qwest's region. Therefore, they can provide the NSA with at least some access in that area. Created by President Truman in 1952, during the Korean War, the NSA is charged with protecting the United States from foreign security threats. The agency was considered so secret that for years the government refused to even confirm its existence. Government insiders used to joke that NSA stood for "No Such Agency." In 1975, a congressional investigation revealed that the NSA had been intercepting, without warrants, international communications for more than 20 years at the behest of the CIA and other agencies. The spy campaign, code-named "Shamrock," led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which was designed to protect Americans from illegal eavesdropping. Enacted in 1978, FISA lays out procedures that the U.S. government must follow to conduct electronic surveillance and physical searches of people believed to be engaged in espionage or international terrorism against the United States. A special court, which has 11 members, is responsible for adjudicating requests under FISA. Over the years, NSA code-cracking techniques have continued to improve along with technology. The agency today is considered expert in the practice of "data mining" - sifting through reams of information in search of patterns. Data mining is just one of many tools NSA analysts and mathematicians use to crack codes and track international communications. Paul Butler, a former U.S. prosecutor who specialized in terrorism crimes, said FISA approval generally isn't necessary for government data-mining operations. "FISA does not prohibit the government from doing data mining," said Butler, now a partner with the law firm Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld in Washington, D.C. The caveat, he said, is that "personal identifiers" - such as names, Social Security numbers and street addresses - can't be included as part of the search. "That requires an additional level of probable cause," he said. The usefulness of the NSA's domestic phone-call database as a counterterrorism tool is unclear. Also unclear is whether the database has been used for other purposes. The NSA's domestic program raises legal questions. Historically, AT&T and the regional phone companies have required law enforcement agencies to present a court order before they would even consider turning over a customer's calling data. Part of that owed to the personality of the old Bell Telephone System, out of which those companies grew. Ma Bell's bedrock principle - protection of the customer - guided the company for decades, said Gene Kimmelman, senior public policy director of Consumers Union. "No court order, no customer information - period. That's how it was for decades," he said. The concern for the customer was also based on law: Under Section 222 of the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, telephone companies are prohibited from giving out information regarding their customers' calling habits: whom a person calls, how often and what routes those calls take to reach their final destination. Inbound calls, as well as wireless calls, also are covered. The financial penalties for violating Section 222, one of many privacy reinforcements that have been added to the law over the years, can be stiff. The Federal Communications Commission, the nation's top telecommunications regulatory agency, can levy fines of up to $130,000 per day per violation, with a cap of $1.325 million per violation. The FCC has no hard definition of "violation." In practice, that means a single "violation" could cover one customer or 1 million. In the case of the NSA's international call-tracking program, Bush signed an executive order allowing the NSA to engage in eavesdropping without a warrant. The president and his representatives have since argued that an executive order was sufficient for the agency to proceed. Some civil liberties groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, disagree. Companies approached The NSA's domestic program began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, according to the sources. Right around that time, they said, NSA representatives approached the nation's biggest telecommunications companies. The agency made an urgent pitch: National security is at risk, and we need your help to protect the country from attacks. The agency told the companies that it wanted them to turn over their "call-detail records," a complete listing of the calling histories of their millions of customers. In addition, the NSA wanted the carriers to provide updates, which would enable the agency to keep tabs on the nation's calling habits. The sources said the NSA made clear that it was willing to pay for the cooperation. AT&T, which at the time was headed by C. Michael Armstrong, agreed to help the NSA. So did BellSouth, headed by F. Duane Ackerman; SBC, headed by Ed Whitacre; and Verizon, headed by Ivan Seidenberg. With that, the NSA's domestic program began in earnest. AT&T, when asked about the program, replied with a comment prepared for USA TODAY: "We do not comment on matters of national security, except to say that we only assist law enforcement and government agencies charged with protecting national security in strict accordance with the law." In another prepared comment, BellSouth said: "BellSouth does not provide any confidential customer information to the NSA or any governmental agency without proper legal authority." Verizon, the USA's No. 2 telecommunications company behind AT&T, gave this statement: "We do not comment on national security matters, we act in full compliance with the law and we are committed to safeguarding our customers' privacy." Qwest spokesman Robert Charlton said: "We can't talk about this. It's a classified situation." In December, The New York Times revealed that Bush had authorized the NSA to wiretap, without warrants, international phone calls and e-mails that travel to or from the USA. The following month, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil liberties group, filed a class-action lawsuit against AT&T. The lawsuit accuses the company of helping the NSA spy on U.S. phone customers. Last month, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales alluded to that possibility. Appearing at a House Judiciary Committee hearing, Gonzales was asked whether he thought the White House has the legal authority to monitor domestic traffic without a warrant. Gonzales' reply: "I wouldn't rule it out." His comment marked the first time a Bush appointee publicly asserted that the White House might have that authority. Similarities in programs The domestic and international call-tracking programs have things in common, according to the sources. Both are being conducted without warrants and without the approval of the FISA court. The Bush administration has argued that FISA's procedures are too slow in some cases. Officials, including Gonzales, also make the case that the USA Patriot Act gives them broad authority to protect the safety of the nation's citizens. The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Sen. Pat Roberts (news, bio, voting record), R-Kan., would not confirm the existence of the program. In a statement, he said, "I can say generally, however, that our subcommittee has been fully briefed on all aspects of the Terrorist Surveillance Program. ... I remain convinced that the program authorized by the president is lawful and absolutely necessary to protect this nation from future attacks." The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., declined to comment. One company differs One major telecommunications company declined to participate in the program: Qwest. According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order - or approval under FISA - to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers' information and how that information might be used. Financial implications were also a concern, the sources said. Carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. The fines, in the aggregate, could have been substantial. The NSA told Qwest that other government agencies, including the FBI, CIA and DEA, also might have access to the database, the sources said. As a matter of practice, the NSA regularly shares its information - known as "product" in intelligence circles - with other intelligence groups. Even so, Qwest's lawyers were troubled by the expansiveness of the NSA request, the sources said. The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the country, pushed back hard. Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled. In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more. Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused. The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events. In June 2002, Nacchio resigned amid allegations that he had misled investors about Qwest's financial health. But Qwest's legal questions about the NSA request remained. Unable to reach agreement, Nacchio's successor, Richard Notebaert, finally pulled the plug on the NSA talks in late 2004, the sources said.
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#1. To: Eoghan (#0)
That is it. We're officially, Nazi Germany.
 | What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?. |
#2. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#1)
This has been around for a while. It hasn't exactly been secret either. Lawyers have been supeonaing phone records for a long time now. Not saying it's a good thing, just not a big shiny new surprise.
#3. To: Dead Corpse (#2)
I was in military signals intelligence for nearly 20 years. Some of the time I worked at NSA Headquarters itself. The whole SIGINT community took the limitations of FISA and USSID 18 extremely seriously. We had yearly indoctrination in USSID 18. We had to sign off that we had read the booklet on it, every year. There were very strict limitations on intercepting communications involving United States persons.
#4. To: Eoghan (#0)
As a result, domestic call records - those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders - were believed to be private. Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information. Of course if anyone believed that the only calls to be tracked were to outside the US then they're naive as it gets.. What is the point of this?? Other than to be a ditto mark of the USSR?? Welcome to the USSA..
Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#5. To: aristeides (#3)
There were very strict limitations on intercepting communications involving United States persons. Wondering who exactly took the decision that this was no longer policy? And exactly when.. 9/11 was a watershed event not because of terrorists but because i was the end of civil liberties and Constitutional protection...
I was in military signals intelligence for nearly 20 years. Some of the time I worked at NSA Headquarters itself. The whole SIGINT community took the limitations of FISA and USSID 18 extremely seriously. We had yearly indoctrination in USSID 18. We had to sign off that we had read the booklet on it, every year.
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#6. To: aristeides (#3)
I'd still rather they not had the capability at all. Then again, if I had my druthers... there'd be a LOT of changes to the FedGov.
#7. To: Zipporah (#5)
No. The end came before 9-11. 9-11 was just a consequence of doing so. Think about it. If even 1/10th of the people on each of those planes had been allowed the full force of their Second Amendment Rights, none of those planes would have been successfully flown to their intended targets.
#8. To: Dead Corpse (#7)
Think about it. If even 1/10th of the people on each of those planes had been allowed the full force of their Second Amendment Rights, none of those planes would have been successfully flown to their intended targets. True.. if in fact there were terrorists aboard those planes and the controls werent being remotely controlled as has been theorized..
No. The end came before 9-11. 9-11 was just a consequence of doing so.
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#9. To: Dead Corpse (#7)
Excellent point, DC.
Think about it. If even 1/10th of the people on each of those planes had been allowed the full force of their Second Amendment Rights, none of those planes would have been successfully flown to their intended targets.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#10. To: Zipporah (#8)
X-Files conspiracy meme. Completely contraverted by the fact that the Fourth plane ended up in a field instead of the White House.
True.. if in fact there were terrorists aboard those planes and the controls werent being remotely controlled as has been theorized..
#11. To: Dead Corpse (#10)
Not necessarily. There is a lot of evidence suggesting that that plane could have been shot down.
Completely contraverted by the fact that the Fourth plane ended up in a field instead of the White House.
#12. To: aristeides (#11)
Yeah... Except for the recordings from the cockpit and cellphones just prior to crashing. And the fact that there wasn't a larger debris field. And larger chunks of the plane that would indicate a midair explosion. The plane did a Lawn Dart. End of story.
Not necessarily. There is a lot of evidence suggesting that that plane could have been shot down.
#13. To: Dead Corpse (#10)
#14. To: Jethro Tull (#13)
From your source.
Investigators later said the debris was all very light material, such as paper and thin nylon the wind would easily blow. The wind was blowing towards Indian Lake and New Baltimore at 9 knots. "According to the NTSB, it is not only possible that the debris is from the crash, it is probable," Crowley said.
#15. To: Dead Corpse (#14)
One problem. I live 10 miles from the scene. No wind. Ah yeah. Bld 7 was "pulled" as per the owner.
#16. To: Zipporah (#4)
Linsey Graham, interviewed on Fox News this morning, appeared to be astonded by the size of the database. This could be rough sailing for Genghis W. Bush and his criminal administration.
"It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.
#17. To: Dead Corpse (#10)
Not so sure.. you might want to take a look at the articles here under the 9/11 ping list.. then make up your mind on that..
X-Files conspiracy meme.
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#18. To: Jethro Tull (#15)
9 knot wind according to your source.
#19. To: Zoroaster (#16)
Good. The FedGov has been "too big for it's britches" since FDR. It is LONG over due for a culling.
Linsey Graham, interviewed on Fox News this morning, appeared to be astonded by the size of the database. This could be rough sailing for Genghis W. Bush and his criminal administration.
#20. To: Eoghan (#0)
I use Skype and only Skype. If I call you, my number shows up as gibberish.
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#21. To: Zipporah (#17)
I've been over the conspiracy theories too many times. The only conpsiracy on 9- 11 was carried out by the Jihadis. The FedGov's only involvement was their lack of competance while depriving us of our individual means of defense. With a Constitutionally limited FedGov, this never would have happened.
Not so sure.. you might want to take a look at the articles here under the 9/11 ping list.. then make up your mind on that..
#22. To: Dead Corpse (#21)
Have you read David Ray Griffin's books?
I've been over the conspiracy theories too many times. The only conpsiracy on 9- 11 was carried out by the Jihadis. The FedGov's only involvement was their lack of competance while depriving us of our individual means of defense.
#23. To: Dead Corpse (#21)
With a Constitutionally limited FedGov, this never would have happened. Then explain to me the 3rd tower.. no fire really to speak of.. not hit by a plane..
I've been over the conspiracy theories too many times. The only conpsiracy on 9- 11 was carried out by the Jihadis. The FedGov's only involvement was their lack of competance while depriving us of our individual means of defense.
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#24. To: Dead Corpse (#21)
I agree about the limited FedGov, but you might want to go over the stockpile of 9/11 articles here on 4. There's tons of stuff that indicate that either 9/11 was allowed to happen, or was deliberately engineered. There's just too many "coincidences" otherwise. For me the most damning bit of info is the stock market speculation prior to the attack. The spikes were bizarre and could only indicate that the speculators KNEW something was going to happen that would affect the stock prices. People don't play with money on that scale -when the money moves, someone knows something.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#25. To: aristeides, Dead Corpse (#22)
or watched Painful Deceptions or Loose Change 2nd Edition?
Have you read David Ray Griffin's books?
#26. To: Dead Corpse (#25)
DC, if you watch these videos pay close attention to the information regarding The Northwoods documents.
#27. To: Dead Corpse (#12)
How does one account for the recorders supposedly being propelled deeper than a high-powered bullet (25-feet) & coming up without a dent; in working condition? {no airplane!}
#28. To: Flintlock, Jethro Tull, Peetie Wheatstraw, christine (#20)
If I call you, my number shows up as gibberish. FYI re Skype I'm eliminating my landline.. and just using Skype..
I use Skype and only Skype.
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#29. To: Eoghan, All (#0)
The issue goes back to the psyops of convincing America that lawyers' statements can supercede U.S. law and the Constitution. WRONG! So far, it's sold!
#30. To: All (#29)
Chimpy Chimperton is supposed to be on the TV in a couple of minutes to explain this spying. It ought to be good.
Ronnie Barrett, .50BMG firearm manufacturer.
#31. To: Esso (#30)
The administration must be scared by the reaction to the news.
#32. To: Dead Corpse (#25)
You're in Austin like me. We CenTexans are fortunate to have Radio Free Austin which broadcasts Republic Broadcasting Network and Genesis with great talk show hosts such as Alex Jones, The Power Hour, John Stadtmiller, Michael Collins Piper, Janis Karpinski, Webster Tarpley, Jack McLamb, among others. Great stuff! Tune in FM 100.10, 90.10, or 93.6 depending on what part of town you're in. ;)
#33. To: aristeides (#31)
Jorge and Klan got away with this when the first relevations of these domestic spying programs surfaced but that was when Jorges approval ratings were around 48%. The public has lost confidence of this admin and no longer trust them with our private information. Repukes think the public will support them again on this invasion of privacy, I think they won't.
The administration must be scared by the reaction to the news.
#34. To: Esso, all (#30)
I saw a rather shocking picture of Dear Leader in the local daily giveaway, the Metro, this morning. Not sure of the context, but it was an in color close-up and man - he's got the reddest nose since WC Fields!!! I'm talking Rudolph- red. Either he's got a terrible case of rosacea or he's been hitting the bottle pretty heavily.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#35. To: mehitable (#34)
I just took a look at this article over at FreepTardVille. It seems to be the general consensus there that the government collecting this information is no different than possessing a telephone book. Sheesh. This country deserves what it's gonna get.
#36. To: Esso (#35)
Are there any viable escape locations that you know of? Sheesh. This country deserves what it's gonna get.
#37. To: christine (#32)
Although I believe that she was scapegoated when demoted from Brig. Gen. To Col., I don't believe her assertion that she had no knowledge of the torture at Abu Ghraib prison.
Janis Karpinski...
Remember The Day You Up And Left I Nearly Cried Myself To Death Oh Yeah And Then I Met Someone Else She Made Me Stop And Get An Hold Of My Self
I'm Doing Fine Now Without You Baby__Pasadenas
#38. To: Zipporah (#28)
Bug that G-man, Yadda, Yadda
I'm eliminating my landline.. and just using Skype..
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#39. To: Esso (#35)
It seems to be the general consensus there that the government collecting this information is no different than possessing a telephone book. Watch their position change when Hillary or some other 'rat wins the White House...
I just took a look at this article over at FreepTardVille.
#40. To: Dead Corpse (#10)
The fourth plane was shot down, if indeed there was a plane that went down in PA. BTW, all Bowing aircraft have had electronics installed in them for many years to allow remote control of them, supposedly to take over the controls when a hijacking occurs. Germany cancelled a big contract with Boeing and went with Airbus of France when they found out about this, and the fact that the electronics which allow this remote control cannot be removed after-market. Here is a story which explains this in detail. BTW, this is the same technology used by AWACS aircraft and Global Hawks. Completely contraverted by the fact that the Fourth plane ended up in a field instead of the White House.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue! Sen. Barry Goldwater
#41. To: SKYDRIFTER (#36)
There's none for me. Hopefully, when I go out, I'll be knee-deep in brass and empty mags.
Are there any viable escape locations that you know of?
#42. To: Esso (#30)
It ought to be good. Just saw your reply.. so didnt watch..so let us know what he had to spin er say..
Chimpy Chimperton is supposed to be on the TV in a couple of minutes to explain this spying.
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#43. To: Dead Corpse (#40)
Remote Control Aircraft: An assault that military pilots stated on the record couldn't have been done by crack fighter pilots. Col. Donn de Grand Pre - former top US Pentagon arms salesman under the Ford and Carter administrations A group of military and civilian US pilots, under the chairmanship of Colonel Donn de Grand, after deliberating non-stop for 72 hours, has concluded that the flight crews of the four passenger airliners, involved in the September 11th tragedy, had no control over their aircraft. In a detailed press communiqué the inquiry stated: “The so-called terrorist attack was in fact a superbly executed military operation carried out against the USA, requiring the utmost professional military skill in command, communications and control. It was flawless in timing, in the choice of selected aircraft to be used as guided missiles and in the coordinated delivery of those missiles to their pre-selected targets.” The report seriously questions whether or not the suspect hijackers, supposedly trained on Cessna light aircraft, could have located a target dead-on 200 miles from take off point. It further throws into doubt their ability to master the intricacies of the instrument flight rules (IFR) in the 45 minutes from take off to the point of impact. Colonel de Grand said that it would be impossible for novices to have taken control of the four aircraft and orchestrated such a terrible act requiring military precision of the highest order. A member of the inquiry team, a US Air Force officer who flew over 100 sorties during the Vietnam war, told the press conference: “Those birds (commercial airliners) either had a crack fighter pilot in the left seat, or they were being manoeuvred by remote control.” Link Further pilot comments: "I seriously question whether these novices could have located a target dead-on 200 miles removed from takeoff point...-- much less controlled the flight and mastered the intricacies of 11FR (instrument flight rules) -- and all accomplished in 45 minutes." "If there was an AWACS on station over the targeted area, did it have a Global Hawk capability? I mean, could it convert the commercial jets to robotic flying missiles? "The fact is, all the transponders were turned off on the doomed flights virtually at the same time." Look at their departure times -- two from Logan (Boston), one from Newark, another from Dulles (Washington DC) -- all between 8 am and 8:15." "We were totally trained on the old type of hijack where you treat the hijacker cordially, punch a 4-digit code into your transponder to alert ground control you're being hijacked, and then get him where he wants to go, set the plane safely on the ground and let them deal with it on the ground. However, this is a totally new situation... Not one of the planes alerted ground control that they were being hijacked." Why? "I became more convinced that the four commercial jets were choreographed by a "conductor" from a central source, namely an airborne warning and control system (AWACS). They have the electronic capability to engage several aircraft simultaneously, knock out their on-board flight controls by EMP (electro- magnetic pulsing) and assume command and remote control of these targeted aircraft" Stan Goff former Special Forces officer: American Airlines Flight 77 - 9/11 -- "At 9:35, this plane conducts another turn, 360 degrees over the Pentagon, all the while being tracked by radar, and the Pentagon is not evacuated, and there are still no fast-movers from the Air Force in the sky over Alexandria and DC. Now, the real kicker. A pilot they want us to believe was trained at a Florida puddle-jumper school for Piper Cubs and Cessnas, conducts a well-controlled downward spiral, descending the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes, brings the plane in so low and flat that it clips the electrical wires across the street from the Pentagon, and flies it with pinpoint accuracy into the side of this building at 460 nauts." [this is a landing by hijackers whose only interest was how to fly, NOT how to land an aircraft] Live Film Footage of United Airlines Flight 175's Long Range Approach to World Trade Center As any airline pilot will confirm independently, the 'reverse feel' on a Boeing 767 travelling at 575 mph is so high that the controls feel like lead, and simply cannot be moved as quickly as you see in the film without overwhelming hydraulic assistance, which can be provided only by the automatic flight director. The pilots themselves cannot disengage the 'reverse feel' placed on the controls, because it is an integrated feature designed to stop the pilots accidentally injuring passengers by imposing extreme "G" forces at high speeds. In turn this reveals the obvious: If qualified airline captains are incapable of flying a Boeing 767 in this manner, then it is completely out of the question for a bunch of "Arab Terrorist Hijackers", who failed their basic Cessna training courses in Florida. Put bluntly, this is the only known footage of United Airlines Flight 175 that completely destroys the government myth about 'Muslim fanatics' allegedly taking over American commercial jets. The [permissable] short clips showing Flight 175 just before impact do not allow time for such detailed analysis, but this long attack profile certainly does. Link Planes of 911 Exceeded Their Software Limits The Boeing 757 and 767 are equipped with fully autonomous flight capability, they are the only two Boeing commuter aircraft capable of fully autonomous flight. They can be programmed to take off, fly to a destination and land, completely without a pilot at the controls. They are intelligent planes, and have software limits pre set so that pilot error cannot cause passenger injury. Though they are physically capable of high g maneuvers, the software in their flight control systems prevents high g maneuvers from being performed via the cockpit controls. They are limited to approximately 1.5 g's, I repeat, one and one half g's. This is so that a pilot mistake cannot end up breaking grandma's neck. No matter what the pilot wants, he cannot override this feature. The plane that hit the Pentagon approached or reached its actual physical limits, military personnel have calculated that the Pentagon plane pulled between five and seven g's in its final turn. The same is true for the second aircraft to impact the WTC. There is only one way this can happen. As well as fully autonomous flight capability, the 767 and 757 are the ONLY COMMUTER PLANES MADE BY BOEING THAT CAN BE FLOWN VIA REMOTE CONTROL. It is a feature that is standard to all of them, all 757's and 767's can do it. The purpose for this is if there is a problem with the pilots, Norad can fly the planes to safe destinations via remote. Only in this flight mode can those craft exceed their software limits and perform to their actual physical limits because a pre existing emergency situation is assumed if this mode of flight is used. Terrorists in fact did not fly those planes, it is totally and completely impossible for those planes to have been flown in such a manner from the cockpit. Those are commuter aircraft, not F-16's and their software knows it. Link
From the comments section http://www.canadianc http://ontent.net/forums/about1314.html
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue! Sen. Barry Goldwater
#44. To: Zipporah (#42)
It was only about 90 seconds long, or so. He was all pissy because he got caught again, kept repeating "Al-Quaeda this, Al- Quaeda that, blah, blah, blah." and stormed off without taking any questions. The talking point now is that USA Today is aiding and abetting Al-Quaeda by releasing the story.
..so let us know what he had to spin er say..
#45. To: Esso (#44)
I found a story on it on CNN and just posted it.. thanks!
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#46. To: aristeides, SKYDRIFTER, BTP Holdings (#22)
has it not been proven that cell phones do not work at that altitude? how come we've not actually heard any of the calls only about them, hmmmmm?
#47. To: Dead Corpse (#18)
What about Bld 7? Do you believe Larry Silverstein? Nine knots, eh? That's a lot of wind, Dead Corpse. Hell, it blew a one ton chunk of engine more than a mile away. Wow. Amazing stuff.
#48. To: BTP Holdings, Skydrifter, Fred_mertz, FormerLurker, aristeides, OKCSubmariner (#43)
A member of the inquiry team, a US Air Force officer who flew over 100 sorties during the Vietnam war, told the press conference: “Those birds (commercial airliners) either had a crack fighter pilot in the left seat, Consider the following hypothesis: The "training" aspect of the hijackers was a cover. They were already trained fighter pilots. IMO, the pictures of the hijackers, many of them resemble SouthAsians more than Arabs. From where? Pakistan - where in 2002, the Chief of the Pakistani AF was killed in a plane explosion. Covering tracks? Just like the Saudi sheikhs, including the horse breeder, Kentucky Derby bon vivant. Then there is this story fresh off the presses......... URL: http://www.india- defence.com/reports/1902 Date: 11/5/2006 Agency: PTI Following the disintegration of the USSR after the Soviets defeat in Afghanistan, some Arab militant leaders and Pakistani generals planned to start war against the United States. "However, I vetoed this plan. Thereafter, Osama started his endeavours to pull down my government. Ramzi Yusuf tried to assassinate me," Bhutto said. Two senior Army Generals, Army Chief Aslam Baig and Director General ISI Gen. Hamid Gul who turned out to be bitter critics of US and defenders of militant group, served during Bhutto's second tenure between 1988 and 1990. In a free-wheeling interview to an American journalist which was telecast on Geo TV, she said the Saudi King had told her in 1989 that he declined to provide money to destabilise her government. "The adviser to Saudi king told one of my ministers that Osama provided 10 million dollars for toppling my government," she said, adding terrorist activities started following the dissolution of her government in 1990. She said Ramzi Yusuf has toyed with the idea of attacking World Trade Towers in 1990s and United States then sought cooperation of her government. "I offered to US authorities to set up the FBI office in Pakistan in 1993 so that effective action could be launched to eliminate terrorism. As a result Ramzi Yousuf was arrested. Would Musharraf of Pakistan, who came into power by overthrowing the PM, NawazSharif, have known about 911, if not actually participated, as evinced by his intel chief wiring 100K to M. Atta, via Omar Sheikh of L'Affaire Pearl fame?
Colonel de Grand said that it would be impossible for novices to have taken control of the four aircraft and orchestrated such a terrible act requiring military precision of the highest order.
>Islamabad: In a startling revelation, former Pakistan Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto has claimed that during her tenure some Arab militant leaders and Pakistani generals had planned to start a war against the US in association with Osama bin Laden but she vetoed it.
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#49. To: Eoghan (#0)
Testing ... testing ... 1-2 ... testing 1-2-3-4 ... NOW HEAR THIS ... Fuck Dubya Bush and his whole clan of contaminated paedophiles and shit eating baby killers. Nasty letter to follow.
------------------------------------------------------------ Kennedy Assassination ... Bush (I) did it ! 9-11 ... Bush (II) did it ! "Sarah if the American people ever find out what we have done to them, they will chase us down the streets and lynch us". [George H. W. Bush to Sarah McClendon]
#50. To: Eoghan, All Patriots (#0)
BUSH Monitoring About 200 Million Americans' Calls
The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
#51. To: Brian S (#39)
EXACTLY. What these simpletons don't get is that once you lay the precedent and create the machine - anyone can use it. If you don't feel comfortable with President Hilary Clinton doing it/having it/knowing it - it shouldn't be done!
Watch their position change when Hillary or some other 'rat wins the White House...
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#52. To: christine (#46)
In 2001, the aircraft goundspeed alone would deny a steady signal (due to "tower switching"), let alone the altitude and the signal blockage by the aircraft skin. The purported 9-11 aircraft cell phone calls have little credibility. If there is any truth to be hasd in the calls, it's overwhelmed by the obvious bullshit. The absence of any descriptions of 'standard' flight attendant hijack responses tells me that the cellphone calls are too much rubbish to be considered. Barbara Olsen called collect on an airphone??? Twice? OKAY!
#53. To: mehitable (#51)
Personally, I have a hard time believing that Hillary Clinton could be any worse as a president than the one who is now in office.
#54. To: SKYDRIFTER (#52)
Killtowns' 911 link page
The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
#55. To: christine (#25)
No. No. And no. Nor do I subscribe much to Art Bell's meanderings or Alex Jone's hysteria.
#56. To: christine (#46)
Cell phones work fine at that altitude. The reason you can't use them is due to farking with the navigation equipement. Myth Busters had an episode on this. The onboard cell phones are on a relay frequency that doesn't interfere with the onboard systems.
has it not been proven that cell phones do not work at that altitude? how come we've not actually heard any of the calls only about them, hmmmmm?
#57. To: Dead Corpse (#55)
David Ray Griffin's writing style is quite sober.
#58. To: Dead Corpse (#55)
Maybe you should check them out - you might find some of it eye opening. If nothing else, all this information raises serious questions on a number of topics and levels that should be addressed by an impartial investigation.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#59. To: aristeides (#53)
hillary as a president will model herself after the Troika of Indira Gandhi, Golda Meir and Maggie Thatcher. No public sobbing bouts for her. She will not encumbered by what afflicted her husband, a juvenileish obsession with receiving sex. Lots of things trending in her favor; Republican women fundraising for her in Texas, Murdoch's fundraiser, stories about her grasp of military affairs, and a subtle playing on the theme of her as a wronged woman.
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#60. To: Christine (#56)
Every time I've looked at mine after take off, it has a msg like "Service unavailable" - there is no dial tone.
Cell phones
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#61. To: BTP Holdings (#43)
Yeah... I suppose we didn't set foot on the moon either? There is a stunning level of ignorance in all this conspiracy crap that is almost frightening. I was a jet engine machanic for six years. I worked at Northwest airlines for another 2. All they needed to know for the Towers was the beacon freq, plug that into their Autopilot, and make one last minute course change to aim down a couple floors. Occamz Razor. There was no conspiracy by our Government. Not one that wouldn't involve so many people that there would have been massive leaks of info by now. All you get is nut case flim-flam and every one with a video or book to sell for only $19.95 if you order now...
#62. To: Dead Corpse (#61)
I think you underestimate the effectiveness of the compartmentalization of information.
Not one that wouldn't involve so many people that there would have been massive leaks of info by now.
#63. To: Dead Corpse (#61)
How would you know that if you haven't done the research or investigation? You haven't read the books or seen the films, so you're not even examining the evidence. It's one thing to reject something after reviewing the issues that others raise, it's another to just reject them out of hand without even considering whether they might be true.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#64. To: swarthyguy (#60)
I've been carrying a cell phone off and on since '96. I've had my phone beep me for voice mail at 36k' numerous times.
#65. To: Dead Corpse (#61)
Yeah, right and the check's in the mail
There was no conspiracy by our Government.
Hey, Meester,wanna meet my seester?
#66. To: aristeides (#62)
And I think some of you are looking for more excuses to hate the government. There is plenty there to justify that without giving in to fantasies and conspiracy bullsh*t.
I think you underestimate the effectiveness of the compartmentalization of information.
#67. To: mehitable (#63)
Correction. I haven't read all of the conspiracy crap. Nor do I intend to. I don't need to eat a spoonful of sh*t to know that I'm not going to enjoy the taste.
#68. To: Dead Corpse (#64)
That's not a conclusive statement. The call may have been received earlier and gone into your vm, with the fone beeping you that you have vm. Have you ever spoken on a fone at that altitude or even a few minutes after takeoff at say 10K feet or whatever or tried to retrieve that vm. An airfone, yes, cell, well, I've yet to see anyone talking on one in flight.
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#69. To: Dead Corpse (#61)
DC, you've landed in a zone where most people are more or less skeptical of the official 9-11 story. I was where you're at until about a year ago---didn't want to hear any questions about the official explanation....they were just a bunch of "tinfoil hat" conspiracy theories by Bush-hating DU'ers, etc. Keep an open mind. Read up on it. I think you'll eventually come to the conclusion that the government has not managed to wrap the events of 9-11 up in a pretty package with its own "conspiracy theory."
All they needed to know for the Towers was the beacon freq, plug that into their Autopilot, and make one last minute course change to aim down a couple floors.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#70. To: aristeides (#62)
As you well know, when you consider the state of the secrets kept in WW2, like the fake army in England , numerous disinfo and espionage operations- granted, all during strict wartime curfew and censorship conditions, nevertheless they point to and demonstrate the effectiveness of secrecy when needed.
compartmentalization of information.
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#71. To: Dead Corpse (#67)
You're not going to look at the evidence because your mind is made up? But why is your mind made up?
#72. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#69)
I have to agree, Peetie. Some of the conspiracy stuff does sound far fetched and I don't necessarily believe everything that's put out there (especially about the Jesuits :) but I do think that there's a ton of info to indicate that 9/11 was a manufactured casus belli. Sometimes these things are created or manipulated, like Pearl Harbor or the Maine in the Spanish American war - or the Bay of Pigs for that matter. All manufactured events or lies, or known about beforehand to bring about a war. It's not like this hasn't happened before, either here or in another country. It happens frequently. I think a lot of people object to the "conspiracy theories" on the grounds that 1) the govt isn't that corrupt or evil 2) the govt isn't that competent 3) they couldn't keep a secret like that. Well, as for number 1 - sure they are. We see that in so many ways everyday, esp with this administration. Would they deliberately kill 3000+ Americans to make billions of dollars and get a much desired war in the ME? Absolutely, I have no doubt about that at all. No 2 - are they competent enough? sure they are. Even Dead Corpse shows us that the basic scheme is not difficult to bring about. It doesn't require much competency either to pull off such a stunt or to cover it up. And no. 3 - Keeping a secret? Who's to say that many people knew about this in the first place? Most intelligence operations are performed by people in compartmentaliezd functions who may not even realize they're part of a bigger picture. The number of people who could plan or let happen a 9/11 could be far less than even 2 dozen. And if some of these people were from a foreign govt intel agency like Israel's Mossad, they might not even give a damn at all. Conspiracies happen literally all the time, all over the world, and they have for all of human history. The govt story of 9/11 is itself a conspiracy theory. Every time more than 2 people get together to discuss a secret, or plan a secret operation - it's a conspiracy.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#73. To: aristeides, Dead Corpse (#71)
You're not going to look at the evidence because your mind is made up? But why is your mind made up? It could have something to do with his name.
Dead Corpse
Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington "If the president made us go to war with Iraq, why doesn't he go over there and fight the war?" Christian May [6th grader]
#74. To: All (#72)
Oops, not the Bay of Pigs...the thing in Vietnam, damn I can't think of the name. Sucks to get old :)
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#75. To: aristeides (#71)
Yes. The evidence I have seen works for me. I don't feel a need to invent anything more.
But why is your mind made up?
#76. To: robin (#73)
Trite. Thoughtless. And juvenile. No wonder you fell for the conspiracy nuts lies.
It could have something to do with his name.
#77. To: mehitable (#74)
Gulf of Tonkin. Daniel Ellsberg has interesting things to say about that incident and the reaction to it in his recent book Secrets.
#78. To: aristeides (#77)
Oh thanks, Ari, wrong body of water :)
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#79. To: Dead Corpse (#67)
I don't read that conspiracy crap put out by the government either. Any one with half a brain can see 9/11 was an inside job.
Correction. I haven't read all of the conspiracy crap. Nor do I intend to. I don't need to eat a spoonful of sh*t to know that I'm not going to enjoy the taste.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#80. To: Dead Corpse (#76)
You chose your name for some reason, I was merely speculating.
Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington "If the president made us go to war with Iraq, why doesn't he go over there and fight the war?" Christian May [6th grader]
#81. To: mehitable (#78)
According to Haldeman or Ehrlichman (I forget which,) when Nixon talked about the "Bay of Pigs," that was generally his code for the JFK assassination.
#82. To: Dead Corpse (#76)
Robin has not fallen for any lies. The USA government did 9/11. If you can't see that then you are not intelligent enough to have a conversation with.
No wonder you fell for the conspiracy nuts lies.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#83. To: RickyJ (#79)
Sorry to hear about your hemispherectomy, but that doesn't mean it was an "inside job".
I don't read that conspiracy crap put out by the government either. Any one with half a brain can see 9/11 was an inside job.
#84. To: mehitable (#72)
I agree that by "open mind," I certainly don't mean "credulous mind." There've been quite a few "blind allies" the 9-11 Truth Movement has gone down, and I don't propose to put my reasoning faculties on hold just because the older I get, the more I realize that "a government big enough to do things for you, is also big enough to do things to you." But I think I was a lot more credulous when I simply swallowed whole the government's version of 9-11. It's not the case that I need "an excuse to hate the government." It's rather that before I needed---even desperately needed, given the horror of the 9-11 events---to believe the government and its version. Overcoming that need, which is the psychological foundation for our eventual enslavement, is the task for every man and woman who truly believes in our democratic republic. It is precisely the skepticism towards government that the Founding Fathers had that we need today in order to make sure that the great enterprise which they started endures.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#85. To: RickyJ (#82)
Ok. Good luck with that then...
Robin has not fallen for any lies. The USA government did 9/11. If you can't see that then you are not intelligent enough to have a conversation with.
#86. To: Dead Corpse, robin (#76)
No wonder you fell for the conspiracy nuts lies. Get a sense of humor. This "asshole-and-lovin'-it" pose isn't winning you any friends here.
Trite. Thoughtless. And juvenile.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#87. To: Dead Corpse (#55)
Dead Corpse, I come in peace. About 911, why do you have faith in their story when this government (actually a rogue military, industrial complex) has allowed a peasant army (illegal immigrants) to invade us, lie to us about Pearl Harbor (Day of Deceit. The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor. by Adm. Robert B. Stinnett), and the Gulf of Tonkin?
#88. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#86)
If I was worried about making friends, group think, and "getting along"... I'd stay over at FR. You don't like my opinion on this topic, I'm fine with that. I don't actually care.
Get a sense of humor. This "asshole-and-lovin'-it" pose isn't winning you any friends here.
#89. To: Jethro Tull (#87)
I don't have "faith" in anyones story. The evidence I have gone looking for, including government, eye witness, and new reports, all point to the same thing. Hijackers, civilian aircraft, and big farking heavy objects falling down. I think you people are ascribing a level of intelligence and competence to our government that there is ample evidence that they do not possess.
#90. To: Dead Corpse (#88)
I'm fine with your opinion on 9-11. If you had bothered to read my other post to you, you'd know it was my opinion until a year ago. Let's not use "straw man" arguments, shall we? That too was something you should've left behind at FR. I'm referring to your personal attacks on people here. This is a pretty tight-knit community of people who respect each other and are sensitive to one another's feelings. If you can't discuss an issue without being obnoxious, you should "actually care" about whether you're in the right place here.
You don't like my opinion on this topic, I'm fine with that. I don't actually care.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#91. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#84)
That is the crux. It's the natural desire and overcoming it can open such a can of worms that your head can hurt. Hence,the natural defence psychological mechanism to not want to pull even on one ittsy bittsy string - in fear that once you start questioning, where do you stop?
I needed---even desperately needed, given the horror of the 9-11 events---to believe the government and its version
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#92. To: Dead Corpse (#89)
OK, we agree on some things for sure. This isn't either, or stuff so civility is important to learning. We're *all* in that process, myself at the head of the line (g). That said, Larry Silverstein "pulled" down Bld. 7. WTF was that about? His own admission should have made him a subject of the 911 Commission, but it wasn't. This omission, for me at least, places the 911 Commission right along side the Warren Commission. Can we agree on that?
#93. To: Jethro Tull (#92)
Ya know, JT, part of the reason why conspiracy theories start and thrive in the first place is the piss-poor "investigations" our govt does of various events, or the obvious cover-ups they do of so many things. It makes people suspicious, and frequently rightly so.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#94. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#90)
Obnoxious? The wheels started coming off this thread about post 56. All of my posts before that are on topic and well reasoned. It wasn't until I started gettign a ration of crap about these 9-11 conspiracy theories that I started getting "obnoxious" in return. If you guys are this touchy about your set in stone meme's, then maybe you are right. Maybe this isn't a good forum for me to participate in.
If you can't discuss an issue without being obnoxious, you should "actually care" about whether you're in the right place here.
#95. To: Dead Corpse (#94)
Perhaps that's why you didn't answer my post 68. OK, you're convinced the Govt is all upfront about 911 and telling the truth.
The wheels started coming off this thread about post 56
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#96. To: Dead Corpse (#94)
I do hope you stick around, DC. We all disagree on some things, of course. Another poster, Yertle Turtle, is a big anti-conspiracy guy. But yet, we agree on other things. I think the big virtue of "4" is that virtually no one gets banned for presenting an opinion, unlike FR. I joined FR some time ago and was banned repeatedly for things as diverse as saying something negative about Bush, sticking up for Pat Buchanan, being pro Terri-Schiavo, and being against illegal immigration (yes! at that point I was actually called a racist and banned again). We don't do that here. It can get rowdy at times but that's what freedom is like.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#97. To: mehitable (#93)
ME, you're so right....been there, done that (shitty initial investigations). And now with the net, the initial flow of information is contradictory, for sure. All that said, 911 is so full of holes it begs a close look, with an open mind. For me, Bld 7 was my awakening.
#98. To: swarthyguy, Dead Corpse (#60)
same here. not to mention the one where the fella supposedly called his mother and said mom, this is whoever giving her his first and last name. then asking, you believe me, don't you, mom? come on...the least they could have done is concoct a believable conversation. DC, i can see your mind is made up and closed.
Every time I've looked at mine after take off, it has a msg like "Service unavailable" - there is no dial tone.
#99. To: Jethro Tull (#92)
Quote is out of context and does not refer to demolition, but stopping efforts to try and save the building. Also, it takes a LOT of work to drop a building the size of WTC 7. Supports have to be cut, holes drilled, TONS of explosives would need to be brought in. Check out the TV show Master Blasters on the Discovery channel every now and then. Weeks worth of preperation go into even a simple demolition. It isn't as easy as strapping plastique to a few support columns and hitting the "bang" button. However, setting fire to it and hitting it with mega-tons of debris would more than do the job. Further, there is at least one website out there that shows the BACK side of WTC7 with only a few small fires showing. Those fires had burned THROUGH from tthe other side.
That said, Larry Silverstein "pulled" down Bld. 7.
#100. To: swarthyguy (#95)
Not at all. You missed my point.
OK, you're convinced the Govt is all upfront about 911 and telling the truth.
#101. To: christine (#98)
On this issue? Yes. Until I see something more concrete that proves otherwise.
DC, i can see your mind is made up and closed.
#102. To: Dead Corpse (#94)
Naw, I'd say they came off at your post #61. So your obnoxiousness was a reasoned response to "crap" conspiracy theories? Or was it just a "quid pro quo" for others' incivility? Haven't made a case either way for your behavior yet, guy. If you guys are this touchy about your set in stone meme's, then maybe you are right. Maybe this isn't a good forum for me to participate in. So it's us skeptics that get upset whenever someone questions our "memes," eh? Still holding on to that "straw man" argument, aren't you? Well, whatever takes you to this conclusion: "Maybe this isn't a good forum for me to participate in." Yeah, maybe not.
Obnoxious? The wheels started coming off this thread about post 56. All of my posts before that are on topic and well reasoned. It wasn't until I started gettign a ration of crap about these 9-11 conspiracy theories that I started getting "obnoxious" in return.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#103. To: Dead Corpse (#99)
Well, "pulled" means only one thing in the demolition arena. If LS meant something else, is there a better explanation available for us? I haven't seen it.
Quote is out of context and does not refer to demolition, but stopping efforts to try and save the building.
#104. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#102)
Deflect and Deny, Disparage and Distract. A rather familiar MO, by now. Mind madeup, won't research further, but hasn't seen anything to dislodge his "meme" either. ROFTLOL!
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#105. To: mehitable (#72)
outstanding post, mehitable.
#106. To: Jethro Tull (#103)
Says who? Also, how much would it take to get you to carry EXPLOSIVES into a burning building that was just heavily damaged and attmpet to carry out a demo job on it? Occam is a Beyotch some times. Captain Chris Boyle: "After that, we headed to Vesey and Broadway. That57;s where (Deputy) Chief (Tom) Haring was. He was starting to put together a command post. Firehouse: Did that chief give an assignment to go to building 7? Boyle: He gave out an assignment. I didn57;t know exactly what it was, but he told the chief that we were heading down to the site. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn57;t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn57;t look good. But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we57;re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn57;t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn57;t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I57;m standing next to said, that building doesn57;t look straight. So I57;m standing there. I57;m looking at the building. It didn57;t look right, but, well, we57;ll go in, we57; ll see. So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody57;s going into 7, there57;s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned. Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side? Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it. Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many? Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we57;ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day. So we got water to 22, but then that57;s when they said all right, number 7 is coming down, shut everything down. I don57;t know what time that was. It was all just a blur. Firehouse: Did they shut the tower lines and remove them from there? Boyle: No, just left them. Everything was left where it was. Just shut everything down, moved everybody back. Firehouse: Could you see building 7 again from there? Boyle: Seven, no. You got a half block away, you couldn57;t see it, couldn57;t see a damn thing. All we heard was they were worried about it coming down, everybody back away." -Firehouse Magazine (08/02)
Well, "pulled" means only one thing in the demolition arena.
#107. To: Dead Corpse (#106)
You know..here we can agree to disagree.. there are opinions on this, my own forum, that I disagree with but this is a free speech forum so.. we, christine and I, use a hands off approach in regard to moderating.. I at one time believed the official theory.. and at one time supported Bush wholeheartedly .. but I've drastically changed my ideas and my belief system.. so.. if you still are under the belief that 9/11 was as the administration says.. so be it.. one day you may change your thoughts on that .. who knows? We all were in that same boat at one time..
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#108. To: BTP Holdings (#43)
It needs to be noted that 9/11 was a crystal clear, beautiful blue sky day. Not a cloud anywhere near where I was living at the time in South Central PA. Visability would have been excellent. If conditions were more nominal with visibility less than 10-15 miles, I'd be more inclined to agree.
The report seriously questions whether or not the suspect hijackers, supposedly trained on Cessna light aircraft, could have located a target dead-on 200 miles from take off point.
#109. To: Zipporah (#107)
You miss understand, I think the Administration had foreknowledge. It is just that none, and I mean ZERO, or the conspiracy theories I have read about and research hold up to even a cursory glance at observable reality. Occam again. Jihadi's flew planes into the Towers damaging them enough to cause complete structural failure. Able Danger alone points out that forces in our own, corrupt, bloated government KNEW something was going to happen. I don't need to spin fancy fairy tales to make things any worse than they already are.
#110. To: Dead Corpse (#106)
Here is a photo of the southeast wall of 7 taken after the collapse of the Twin
Towers on 9-11. Show us where the 20 story hole was that would bring down 7. I
can't even see one story gone---can you?Link to
photo
then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20
stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#111. To: Dead Corpse (#109)
If that's all there was to it, then why did those stock market spikes occur beforehand involving companies that would be affected by 9/11? That indicates definite foreknowledge by influential people in the stocks who are serious about moving money. As far as I know, there is no other explanation for the spikes. Perhaps one of the more diligent 9/11 posters might post some links to the financial articles :)
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#112. To: Eoghan (#0)
The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events. Bush signs an Executive Order and everyone is being quoted to the effect that their actions are lawful on that basis. They're not. Bush is not King. I sincerely hope there are class action lawsuits filed against all the carriers that so willingly complied with the NSA's request. And I hope the carriers get bankrupted by those lawsuits.
... Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.
#113. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#110)
Er... what photo?
#114. To: Dead Corpse (#106)
Ding, ding, ding, ding, you just might be starting to think here. Maybe there is hope for you yet. They didn't carry explosives into the burning building that day, it takes weeks of preparation to bring a building down in a controlled manner. That building did not, nor did the two towers come down due to anything other than thermite and explosives that day that were put in place weeks or months before 9/11. Which can only mean one thing, 9/11 was an inside job. Also, how much would it take to get you to carry EXPLOSIVES into a burning building that was just heavily damaged and attmpet to carry out a demo job on it?
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#115. To: mehitable (#111)
Source it. Here's the Ten-year chart for the DJIA off of CNN. DOW was trending downward, but no annomalies prior to the 9/11 attack. Sharp dip after followed by a rise.
If that's all there was to it, then why did those stock market spikes occur beforehand involving companies that would be affected by 9/11?
#116. To: Dead Corpse (#89)
I have no firm opinion on who's responsible for 911. There's no question that it was an operation pulled off by people heartless enough to kill thousands of people. The only question is who they are. For me, the collapse of WTC 7 is the most obvious question that needs answering. To have all 4 corners of the building collapse at the same instant is quite suspicious. Even the OKC Murrah building blast which took out 2 major building supports left half the building standing. Ditto for many buildings that have suffered car/truck bomb attacks. Do you have an explanation as to what made WTC 7 collapse like it did? Also, (not to change the subject) if you appreciate witnesses, what do you think of the missle theory of TWA 800? To me that's a case of the government discarding the word of many dozens of witnesses.
I don't have "faith" in anyones story. The evidence I have gone looking for, including government, eye witness, and new reports, all point to the same thing.
#117. To: RickyJ (#114)
Or that those explosives were never there at all and it was just a couple of North America's largest buildings falling down on top of them... Any idea how much NOISE a jackhammer makes? Or a conrete drill? Did they hush up all those night time cleaning crews? Late shifters? Or did they do it all over Christmas break?
That building did not, nor did the two towers come down due to anything other than thermite and explosives that day that were put in place weeks or months before 9/11. Which can only mean one thing, 9/11 was an inside job.
#118. To: Dead Corpse (#115)
That's not what I've seen, DC. However, I'm not very good about keeping track of this info, so I'm not the best poster on the subject. Perhaps someone else who has kept track of this financial data might want to post?
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#119. To: Neil McIver (#116)
WTC 7 was damaged the same way 5 and 6 were. By WTC 1 falling on it. There was even a gap between 5/6 that would have acted like a debris funnal slamming the whole front of WTC7 on the short side of it's trapazoid. As for TWA 800, that one I'm not so sure on. Knowing what I do about aircraft, I find the official story unlikely. Knowing the Jihadi's favoring small arms like Stingers, I find that a bit more plausible. Especially after seeing what the recovered reconstruction of the fuselage looked like. That looked like something exploded where there are no fuel tanks, just luggage.
#120. To: Dead Corpse (#115)
No offense, but a 10 year chart is hardly adequate for showing spikes that may have occurred in a few stocks for a couple days in 2001.
Here's the Ten-year chart for the DJIA off of CNN.
#121. To: mehitable (#118)
Then CNN is in on it. As is the entire Stock Exchange. That is where I got that chart from.
That's not what I've seen, DC.
#122. To: Dead Corpse (#106)
Says Silverstein. Says who?
#123. To: Dead Corpse (#109)
Occam again. Jihadi's flew planes into the Towers damaging them enough to cause complete structural failure. Able Danger alone points out that forces in our own, corrupt, bloated government KNEW something was going to happen. I don't need to spin fancy fairy tales to make things any worse than they already are. Well depicting what people believe to be true as 'fancy fairy tales' wont exactly win friends and influence people ;P I hadnt read all of your replies so I truly had no idea where you were coming from.. there is more than enough evidence to show there was complicity.. and IMO more than enough to believe it was far more than that..
You miss understand, I think the Administration had foreknowledge. It is just that none, and I mean ZERO, or the conspiracy theories I have read about and research hold up to even a cursory glance at observable reality.
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#124. To: mehitable (#111)
A high volume of put option purchases[7], [8] and other unusual market activity [9] occurred in the days and weeks before 9/11, prompting international investigations into alleged insider trading following the attacks. Put options increased for, among others, United Air UAL Corp. (increased 40 percent), American Airline parent AMR Corp (increased 20 percent), and aircraft manufacturer Boeing Corp. (increased 37 percent). CNN stated: "Short-sellers with advance knowledge of the attack could have made millions."[10]. Former Security and Exchange Commission enforcement chief William McLucas told Bloomberg News that regulators would "certainly be able to track down every trade," however, no arrests have ever occurred. Although the 9/11 Commission considered that the trades might be initially suspicious - they stated in their Report that there was no terrorist connection - they did not provide citations or specifics for their investigations, such as how 'each trade' could have been explained, given that the events occurred worldwide. The Commission merely states: "Some unusual trading did in fact occur, but each such trade proved to have an innocuous explanation." From the (links omitted).
Market Activity Investigations
#125. To: Neil McIver (#120)
It's a ten year DAILY chart. Here's a five-year chart that shows the POST-9/11 drop and another one mid-2002 from Market Watch. Looks identical to the CNN chart. If you can find the daily DJIA from say 9-09-2001 to 9-13-2001, then post it.
#126. To: All (#124)
That should have read: From the Wikipedia entry on the Aftermath of the September 11, 2001 attacks.
#127. To: Jethro Tull (#122)
And as I already posted, and numerous other interviews and recordings from 9/11 show, they were talking about pulling back the fire companies. What are the odds that firemen and a relestate businessmen are going to know insider demolition slang? Also, there is no verification, nor sources I can find, that "pull it" is demolition slang to begin with.
#128. To: Dead Corpse (#113)
You want the link?
Er... what photo?
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#129. To: Dead Corpse (#119)
I have to admit I don't know much at all about building 5 or 6. But given the movie clips, I've seen no damage to it that would explain the collapse, much less a highly uniform one. Even if one side of the building was damaged, would that make the entire building drop so evenly? I can't answer "yes" to that given what I've seen. I think stingers don't quite have the altitude reach to have gotten to 800, but for me it doesn't rule out some similar weapon launched from a small boat. I remember hearing an FBI agent interviewed on TV saying that the reason for seizing tapes that might show a missle was to prevent public hysteria. Seeing the FBI operate based on crowd control rather than "Investigation" made me suspicious. That and the vile prosecution of an independent investigative reporter who had a 2 inch piece of seat cushion removed from the site for chemical analysis made it easy for me to conclude that at minimum, a government cover-up was involved in 800.
WTC 7 was damaged the same way 5 and 6 were. By WTC 1 falling on it. There was even a gap between 5/6 that would have acted like a debris funnal slamming the whole front of WTC7 on the short side of it's trapazoid.
As for TWA 800, that one I'm not so sure on. Knowing what I do about aircraft, I find the official story unlikely. Knowing the Jihadi's favoring small arms like Stingers, I find that a bit more plausible.
#130. To: Dead Corpse (#127)
What are the odds that firemen and a relestate businessmen are going to know insider demolition slang? Silverstein wouldn't know demolition terms but would know precisely what firemen mean by "pull it"? Typical of the circular logic of the government version defenders.
And as I already posted, and numerous other interviews and recordings from 9/11 show, they were talking about pulling back the fire companies.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#131. To: Dead Corpse (#127)
You can still think this after hearing LS in his own words, and in the exact context?
they were talking about pulling back the fire companies.
#132. To: Dead Corpse (#127)
For someone who claims not to have studied the matter because you are convinced the government is telling the truth, you sure seem to be pulling up a lot of information very quickly.
#133. To: Zipporah (#123)
I have a personality like the ugly side of a battle axe. Always have. Despite that, I'm a rather contented and happy beast. I just don't deal well with what I see as a lack of critical thought. Either the government spent billions of dollars and thousands of man hours covertly pulling off the biggest coup in history, while not being able to so much as hide it's own incompetance every where else, or it happened exactly as it appeared. Occam again.
Well depicting what people believe to be true as 'fancy fairy tales' wont exactly win friends and influence people ;P
#134. To: Neil McIver (#120)
Especially when a composite chart doesn't hint at the puts/calls placed upon specific airline stocks. No aggregate compilation would show that.
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#135. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#130)
If they were discussing pulling back the fire crews? Yeah. Wouldn't you?
#136. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#128)
That link goes to a conspiracy website. img src the photo...
#137. To: Dead Corpse (#127)
LS is a builder. He knows these terms.
relestate businessmen
#138. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#54)
Thanks, that's an interesting collection.
#139. To: aristeides (#132)
Google is your friend. Nor am I convinced the government would know the truth if it was screwing it. I think they knew it was going to happen and just let it. Do I need to say it again? I think this is the third time now...
#140. To: Jethro Tull (#137)
He's a renter. He had a lease on the WTC. Doesn't mean he knew sqaut about demolition. As I said, prove it is demo slang. Gimme a link to a demolition website where they list their terminology.
LS is a builder. He knows these terms.
#141. To: Dead Corpse (#133)
just don't deal well with what I see as a lack of critical thought. Either a vast conspiracy or Bush is telling the truth. ROTFLOL! Pot>Kettle Black.
Either the government spent billions of dollars and thousands of man hours covertly pulling off the biggest coup in history, while not being able to so much as hide it's own incompetance every where else, or it happened exactly as it appeared.
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#142. To: Dead Corpse (#125)
If you can find the daily DJIA from say 9-09-2001 to 9-13-2001, then post it. But unless I'm mistaken, it's also not the DJIA that's in question, but only of certain particular stocks, I think mostly transporation based, not even industrial.
#143. To: Dead Corpse (#140)
Have you listened to what he said?
#144. To: Dead Corpse, All (#133)
Eliminating the impossible, 9-11 was an inside job, in no uncertain terms. A larger repeat of the Viet Nam War profiteering. I remember too well.
#145. To: swarthyguy (#141)
No. Either there was a vast conspiracy of untold thousands, or it was a bunch of hijackers slamming planes into buildings. ROTFLOL indeed. Too bad you still haven't seemed to have understood the punchline.
Either a vast conspiracy or Bush is telling the truth.
#146. To: Neil McIver (#142)
Ok... find the charts themselves. Post a link.
But unless I'm mistaken, it's also not the DJIA that's in question, but only of certain particular stocks, I think mostly transporation based, not even industrial.
#147. To: Dead Corpse (#133)
I just don't deal well with what I see as a lack of critical thought. Either the government spent billions of dollars and thousands of man hours covertly pulling off the biggest coup in history, while not being able to so much as hide it's own incompetance every where else, or it happened exactly as it appeared. Occam again. Nor do I.. Now re the $$.. have you read anything by Indira Singh or Sibel Edmonds.. what they have said where the $$ came from to fund 9/11??? Not the government exactly.. What changed my mind re 9/11 was when I read the Northwoods documents.. it put doubt in my mind.. it was then I began to use critical thought regarding the events.. read everything both pro and con all sides and stripes re 9/11.. some I dismissed as nonsense others I couldnt ignore.. so it's not that I'm some KOOK as the RW detractors try to depict those that disagree with the official story.. I arrived at my way of thinking in the exact way you have said, utilizing critical thought..inductive and deductive reasoning.
I have a personality like the ugly side of a battle axe. Always have. Despite that, I'm a rather contented and happy beast.
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#148. To: Dead Corpse (#127)
Arguing about who said what and what it might mean when there is video, picture, and eyewitness evidence that overwhelmingly points to a controlled demolition? If you can’t trust your own eyes, ears, and numerous eyewitnesses, but will trust the government’s fairytale version of what happened that day, then you might as well be Baghdad Bob, because you make about as much sense as him.
Also, there is no verification, nor sources I can find, that "pull it" is demolition slang to begin with.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#149. To: Dead Corpse (#145)
ROTFLOL! You are funny. Arrogant, stupid, and condescending while convinced of your superiority. Explain it to us, o knowledgeable one. So you don't think Bush is telling the truth. Bully for you. I like this limited hangout angle you have. Sounds familiar.
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#150. To: SKYDRIFTER (#144)
Eliminating the improbable, the silly, and the downright WRONG, it was Jihadi's slamming airplanes into big friggin' buildings. Further evidence suggests the Intel community knew it was going to happan and let it. That should be more than enough conspiracy for anyone, easier to prove, and doesn't require "elves and unicorns". Or would that be "demo crews working covertly for months with tons of C-4 without anyone noticing"....
Eliminating the impossible, 9-11 was an inside job, in no uncertain terms.
#151. To: Dead Corpse (#133)
I agree that in order for 911 to be pulled of by a covert government operation, a huge endeavor it would be. I remember one person arguing that it couldn't possibly be a government operation just because the government isn't capable of pulling something like this off. I think that's one of the best reasons to be skeptical of alternative theories. Which makes WTC7 even more of a mystery.
Either the government spent billions of dollars and thousands of man hours covertly pulling off the biggest coup in history, while not being able to so much as hide it's own incompetance every where else, or it happened exactly as it appeared.
#152. To: Dead Corpse (#145)
demolish - verb demolishes, demolished, demolishing - 1. To pull or tear down (a building, etc).
Pull
#153. To: swarthyguy (#149)
You are entitled to your opinion. Others have had the same one over the years. I'll let you know if you come up with anything remotely new or interesting.
Arrogant, stupid, and condescending while convinced of your superiority.
#154. To: aristeides (#124)
Thanks, aristeides - considering that the 9/11 Commission itself admitted that the trades were "unusual" I don't see that we should be faulted for wondering what prompted this behavior at this point in time.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#155. To: Dead Corpse (#150)
Now consider what you just said here.. in another post you said "spent billions of dollars and thousands of man hours covertly pulling off the biggest coup in history".. now tell me .. are you saying that jihadi's spent billions of dollars and thousands of man hours and can believe that a man in a cave with limited access could pull this off .. ??
it was Jihadi's slamming airplanes into big friggin' buildings.
"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass
#156. To: Dead Corpse (#153)
Don't bother. You spout recycled, rehashed crap with tactics that are blatantly transparent. Deflect and Deny, Disparage and Distract.
I'll let you know
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#157. To: swarthyguy (#149)
Yeah, it sounds familiar all right. It's like they are all reading from the same script. Ignoring the evidence that points to something that makes them uncomfortable, won't change the evidence.
I like this limited hangout angle you have. Sounds familiar.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#158. To: Jethro Tull (#152)
That is "demolish". Try again... From your own conspiracy website... http:// 911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/pullit.html It is clear that the case for Silverstein's admitting demolition is extremely weak. The common assertion that "pull" is industry slang for demolition lacks support. A Google search for the term "pull" in relation to controlled demolition fails to return uses of "pull" meaning demolition outside of the widely circulated story of Silverstein's admission on 9/11 conspiracy sites. See the analysis on http://wtc7.net. Even if "pull" were industry slang for demolition, there would be no reason to expect Silverstein to know this. The above quote by a Ground Zero worker about pulling Building 6 is not evidence that "pull" means controlled demolition, since he was apparently referring to using cables to literally pull down portions of the building.
#159. To: Dead Corpse (#133)
Nice attempt at giving a "conservative" patina to your arguments. The only thing a government is "competant" to do is deceive, rob, imprison, and murder people. They did an absolutely "bang-up" job on 9-11.
Either the government spent billions of dollars and thousands of man hours covertly pulling off the biggest coup in history, while not being able to so much as hide it's own incompetance every where else, or it happened exactly as it appeared.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#160. To: Dead Corpse (#146)
Apparently from what Aristeides posted (which I've seen before) the link is right in the 9/11 Commission report. They themselves apparently commented on this unusual trading.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#161. To: Dead Corpse (#136)
So that's not a photo of the SE side of WTC 7 on 9-11? Just say that, and give us your proof---don't deny and deflect, or I'm going to conclude you're just here to disrupt.
That link goes to a conspiracy website. img src the photo...
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#162. To: swarthyguy (#156)
Really? But you massive conspiracy believers have the silver spoon of absolute truth up your asses? And what are you doing now? Deflecting this thread from its original topic. Denying that million pound airplanes could drop a million ton building and that it had to be a demo job. Disparaging me, my intellect, and anything else I post. Continue to distract by making the same idiot assertions about me. Yeah... you got it down pat alright. I'll leave you all to it. I've pretty much had enough of this bullshit. If I wanted to talk to a bunch of conspiracy nuts, I'd hang my hat back over at LibertyForum.
You spout recycled, rehashed crap with tactics that are blatantly transparent.
#163. To: Dead Corpse (#158)
Adios, friend. Time is too short.
#164. To: Dead Corpse (#162)
You have brought up the concept of "massive" - nice tactic but ineffective here. Too simplistic and emotion laden, a big red button to push to cause a natural recoil away from something so outlandish. Now you give yourself away; a marked tendency amongst supporters of the party line seems to be an anal obsession, often spewed out when some kind of tipping point is reached. Dunno why exactly , but when that point is reached, psycho sexual innuendo and insults seem to proliferate. BTW, you still haven't listed all times you've spoken on a cellphone while flying. ROTFLOL! Whaddya expect?
you massive conspiracy believers have the silver spoon of absolute truth up your asses?
Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.
#165. To: Dead Corpse (#158)
http:// http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/pullit.html I see you don't have a problem cherry-picking info at our "conspiracy" sites. As you pointed out, the photo of WTC 7's southeast face on 9-11 linked at post #110 was also from that "conspiracy site." So let me ask for the third time: is that photo not what it purports to be? If not, cite your contentions and proof. If it is, show us the 20 story hole that was supposed to be enough to bring it down.
From your own conspiracy website...
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#166. To: Dead Corpse (#135)
LOL You don't know what "circular logic" means, do you?
If they were discussing pulling back the fire crews? Yeah. Wouldn't you?
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#167. To: Neil McIver (#151)
Actually I have heard that it didn't really require that many people who knew everything, only a few. Top-level people had to know as much as they needed to know to pull off 9/11, but others were only following orders and didn't need to know anything other than what they were told to do. The military and CIA agents could pull something like this off, the government by itself couldn't, but since they control the top generals in the military and the leaders of the CIA, it wasn't a problem. It has been speculated that no more than about 10-20 people had to know what was really going on that day to pull off 9/11, everyone else just did their jobs as told and had no idea they were part of the biggest attack against Americans on American soil ever.
I agree that in order for 911 to be pulled of by a covert government operation, a huge endeavor it would be.
God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#168. To: aristeides (#132)
And for someone complaining that someone else "hijacked" the thread, and that people are being rude to him, he's certainly lustily gone along with the "hijack," and appears to believe that "having a personality like the ugly side of a battle-ax" is enough to excuse his own lack of decorum.
For someone who claims not to have studied the matter because you are convinced the government is telling the truth, you sure seem to be pulling up a lot of information very quickly.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#169. To: Dead Corpse, Christine, Zipporah, robin, Zoroaster, BTP Holdings, Arator, Brian S, A K A Stone, Steppenwolf, Bub, mugwort, bluegrass, Bill D Berger, FormerLurker, Uncle Bill, Dakmar, Flintlock, Neil McIver, tom007, aristeides, Burkeman1, Diana, (#150)
Excuse me....! Obvious propaganda claims aside: 1. There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists making a plane reservation. If so, there would be a “record locator,” complete with details. 2. There is no documented record of the purported 9-11 terrorists buying or using a ticket. (IDs required) 3. There is no hard-copy of a printed ticket ‘copy.’ 4. There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists on any of the passenger manifests, with all legitimate passengers being accounted for. 5. There is no record of the purported 9-11 terrorists in the autopsies. 6. There is not as much as a suggestion that the purported 9-11 terrorists had the needed pilot skills - but rather the contrary. 7. At least seven of the purported 9-11 terrorists are known to be still alive - with no questions being asked. 8. There is no documentation (per the FBI [Mueller] to link the purported 9-11 terrorists to the events of the day! 9. The presented pictures of the 9-11 hijackers don't match the purported terrorists. 10. There is no viable evidence of a plane crash at the 9-11 Pentagon or in Pennsylvania - versus salted wreckage pieces. In the case of the Pentagon, they were even the wrong color! 11. The purported “on board” accounts of the 9-11 flights consistently fail to suggest ‘standard’ flight crew hijacking actions, versus “psyops” victimization of the passengers. Four flights can’t be totally lacking in evidence of the flight crew hijack strategies. 12. A stopwatch says that THREE buildings at the WTC came down as controlled demolition. Add the video captures of the sequenced blasts. 13. There is no way to account for the purported WTC ‘collapse’ temperatures of the 'official' line. 14. The White House did their best to block a legitimate investigation of 9-11. 15. For all the failures, no official has been punished for 9-11. (with trivia such as a general who had an affair being sacked, in the background.) 16. There were no WMDs. Saddam has been long deposed. Iraq had no possible connection to 9-11. For all the horrors of the USA-made Saddam, his crimes are dwarfed by the tribal genocide of Africa. How did Saddam become the ‘humanitarian’ priority? 17. Bush's invasions continue as War Crimes! 18. With the Mexican border held wide open by the White House, how much “terror” can be factual? It’s simply not possible, in the absence of treason/sedition. (Quite reasonably possible – and consistent with the Bush Cabal War Crimes!) How should America intelligently view the Bush myth of “Terror?” What’s good for Halliburton is good for America. What a cause – ala the Viet Nam war!
#170. To: SKYDRIFTER (#169)
Looks like the guy "opus'd" with his last post at #162. He hasn't replied to any posts for a while now, because I don't think he can. I think he's a disruptor who's about as competent as he says the government is.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#171. To: Peetie Wheatstraw, Christine, Zipporah, robin, Zoroaster, BTP Holdings, Arator, Brian S, A K A Stone, Steppenwolf, Bub, mugwort, bluegrass, Bill D Berger, FormerLurker, Uncle Bill, Dakmar, Flintlock, Neil McIver, tom007, aristeides, Burkeman1, Diana, All (#170)
Yeah, it did get abruptly quiet. He needs to get further instructions from the associated handlers. Funny, how that works. They'll be back; watch for the cleverness in the associated "weasel language." You'll se a reference in which comebody 'alludes' to the propaganda, without citing anything which approaches factual documentation. It's a constant, when there is no supporting "truth."
#172. To: SKYDRIFTER, christine, Zipporah, robin, Zoroaster, BTP Holdings, Arator, Brian S, A K A Stone, Steppenwolf, Bub, mugwort, bluegrass, Bill D Berger, FormerLurker, Uncle Bill, Dakmar, Flintlock, Neil McIver, tom007, aristeides, Burke (#171)
My sense about him exactly!
He needs to get further instructions from the associated handlers.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#173. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#172)
and not one thread on FR about Big Brother 1984 Bush
The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
#174. To: Itisa1mosttoolate, SKYDRIFTER, christine, Zipporah, robin, Zoroaster, BTP Holdings, Arator, Brian S, A K A Stone, Steppenwolf, Bub, mugwort, bluegrass, Bill D Berger, FormerLurker, Uncle Bill, Dakmar, Flintlock, Neil McIver, tom007, aristeides, Burke (#173)
Son of a gun. He's still there at Free Republic!!!! http://www.freerepublic.com/~deadcorpse/index?U=http%3A%2F% 2Fwww.freerepublic.com%2Ffocus%2Ff-news%2Fbrowse Still posting there too as of today. We've been had, merry band of 4'ers. Wait'll he takes them home and they find out he's a "Dead Corpse"...
and not one thread on FR about Big Brother 1984 Bush
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#175. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#174)
looks like someone from the "Friday night Babes, party, and Booze" Thread.
The mind once expanded by a new idea never returns to its' original size
#176. To: Dead Corpse (#110)
Here is a photo of the southeast wall of 7 taken after the collapse of the Twin Towers on 9-11. Show us where the 20 story hole was that would bring down 7. I can't even see one story gone---can you?Link to photo Shoot. Well, I apologize: you try to link to the photo and the site just redirects you to its welcome page. Try pasting this URL in your address bar and then look at the photo: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/photos/docs/3073.jpg
then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors.
"Expect the government to lie to you."
#177. To: Dead Corpse (#61)
Yeah, right. I've heard that crap before. You're really a simple minded buffoon, aren't you. See ya, BOZO.
Occamz Razor.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue! Sen. Barry Goldwater
#178. To: Neil McIver (#151)
The other shoe is about to drop. Soon we will see many of those who were complicit coming out to tell their stories and try to save their own hides. I agree that in order for 911 to be pulled of by a covert government operation, a huge endeavor it would be. I remember one person arguing that it couldn't possibly be a government operation just because the government isn't capable of pulling something like this off. I think that's one of the best reasons to be skeptical of alternative theories.
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue! Sen. Barry Goldwater
#179. To: All, christine (#174)
chris, "Dead Corpse" delinked his "pimp" photo at post #174 above from his FR homepage, a photo which portrayed himself as a "pimp" with "bling" accompanied by two women who I take it are supposed to be filles de joie, and put up the above obscene gif instead. You may want to remove the image.
http://home.austin.rr.com/deeperblack/Pimp.jpg
"Those who make peaceful change impossible will make violent revolution inevitable." ----John F. Kennedy
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