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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: NSA has massive database of Americans' phone calls
Source: USA Today
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20 ... edatabaseofamericansphonecalls
Published: May 11, 2006
Author: Leslie Cauley
Post Date: 2006-05-11 09:50:46 by Eoghan
Ping List: *Israeli Espionage*
Keywords: None
Views: 2879
Comments: 179

The National Security Agency has been secretly collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans, using data provided by AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, people with direct knowledge of the arrangement told USA TODAY.

The NSA program reaches into homes and businesses across the nation by amassing information about the calls of ordinary Americans - most of whom aren't suspected of any crime. This program does not involve the NSA listening to or recording conversations. But the spy agency is using the data to analyze calling patterns in an effort to detect terrorist activity, sources said in separate interviews.

QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS: The NSA record collection program

"It's the largest database ever assembled in the world," said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA's activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency's goal is "to create a database of every call ever made" within the nation's borders, this person added.

For the customers of these companies, it means that the government has detailed records of calls they made - across town or across the country - to family members, co-workers, business contacts and others.

The three telecommunications companies are working under contract with the NSA, which launched the program in 2001 shortly after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, the sources said. The program is aimed at identifying and tracking suspected terrorists, they said.

The sources would talk only under a guarantee of anonymity because the NSA program is secret.

Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, nominated Monday by President Bush to become the director of the CIA, headed the NSA from March 1999 to April 2005. In that post, Hayden would have overseen the agency's domestic call-tracking program. Hayden declined to comment about the program.

The NSA's domestic program, as described by sources, is far more expansive than what the White House has acknowledged. Last year, Bush said he had authorized the NSA to eavesdrop - without warrants - on international calls and international e-mails of people suspected of having links to terrorists when one party to the communication is in the USA. Warrants have also not been used in the NSA's efforts to create a national call database.

In defending the previously disclosed program, Bush insisted that the NSA was focused exclusively on international calls. "In other words," Bush explained, "one end of the communication must be outside the United States."

As a result, domestic call records - those of calls that originate and terminate within U.S. borders - were believed to be private.

Sources, however, say that is not the case. With access to records of billions of domestic calls, the NSA has gained a secret window into the communications habits of millions of Americans. Customers' names, street addresses and other personal information are not being handed over as part of NSA's domestic program, the sources said. But the phone numbers the NSA collects can easily be cross-checked with other databases to obtain that information.

Don Weber, a senior spokesman for the NSA, declined to discuss the agency's operations. "Given the nature of the work we do, it would be irresponsible to comment on actual or alleged operational issues; therefore, we have no information to provide," he said. "However, it is important to note that NSA takes its legal responsibilities seriously and operates within the law."

The White House would not discuss the domestic call-tracking program. "There is no domestic surveillance without court approval," said Dana Perino, deputy press secretary, referring to actual eavesdropping.

She added that all national intelligence activities undertaken by the federal government "are lawful, necessary and required for the pursuit of al-Qaeda and affiliated terrorists." All government-sponsored intelligence activities "are carefully reviewed and monitored," Perino said. She also noted that "all appropriate members of Congress have been briefed on the intelligence efforts of the United States."

The government is collecting "external" data on domestic phone calls but is not intercepting "internals," a term for the actual content of the communication, according to a U.S. intelligence official familiar with the program. This kind of data collection from phone companies is not uncommon; it's been done before, though never on this large a scale, the official said. The data are used for "social network analysis," the official said, meaning to study how terrorist networks contact each other and how they are tied together.

Carriers uniquely positioned

AT&T recently merged with SBC and kept the AT&T name. Verizon, BellSouth and AT&T are the nation's three biggest telecommunications companies; they provide local and wireless phone service to more than 200 million customers.

The three carriers control vast networks with the latest communications technologies. They provide an array of services: local and long-distance calling, wireless and high-speed broadband, including video. Their direct access to millions of homes and businesses has them uniquely positioned to help the government keep tabs on the calling habits of Americans.

Among the big telecommunications companies, only Qwest has refused to help the NSA, the sources said. According to multiple sources, Qwest declined to participate because it was uneasy about the legal implications of handing over customer information to the government without warrants.

Qwest's refusal to participate has left the NSA with a hole in its database. Based in Denver, Qwest provides local phone service to 14 million customers in 14 states in the West and Northwest. But AT&T and Verizon also provide some services - primarily long-distance and wireless - to people who live in Qwest's region. Therefore, they can provide the NSA with at least some access in that area.

Created by President Truman in 1952, during the Korean War, the NSA is charged with protecting the United States from foreign security threats. The agency was considered so secret that for years the government refused to even confirm its existence. Government insiders used to joke that NSA stood for "No Such Agency."

In 1975, a congressional investigation revealed that the NSA had been intercepting, without warrants, international communications for more than 20 years at the behest of the CIA and other agencies. The spy campaign, code-named "Shamrock," led to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA), which was designed to protect Americans from illegal eavesdropping.

Enacted in 1978, FISA lays out procedures that the U.S. government must follow to conduct electronic surveillance and physical searches of people believed to be engaged in espionage or international terrorism against the United States. A special court, which has 11 members, is responsible for adjudicating requests under FISA.

Over the years, NSA code-cracking techniques have continued to improve along with technology. The agency today is considered expert in the practice of "data mining" - sifting through reams of information in search of patterns. Data mining is just one of many tools NSA analysts and mathematicians use to crack codes and track international communications.

Paul Butler, a former U.S. prosecutor who specialized in terrorism crimes, said FISA approval generally isn't necessary for government data-mining operations. "FISA does not prohibit the government from doing data mining," said Butler, now a partner with the law firm Akin Gump Strauss Hauer & Feld in Washington, D.C.

The caveat, he said, is that "personal identifiers" - such as names, Social Security numbers and street addresses - can't be included as part of the search. "That requires an additional level of probable cause," he said.

The usefulness of the NSA's domestic phone-call database as a counterterrorism tool is unclear. Also unclear is whether the database has been used for other purposes.

The NSA's domestic program raises legal questions. Historically, AT&T and the regional phone companies have required law enforcement agencies to present a court order before they would even consider turning over a customer's calling data. Part of that owed to the personality of the old Bell Telephone System, out of which those companies grew.

Ma Bell's bedrock principle - protection of the customer - guided the company for decades, said Gene Kimmelman, senior public policy director of Consumers Union. "No court order, no customer information - period. That's how it was for decades," he said.

The concern for the customer was also based on law: Under Section 222 of the Communications Act, first passed in 1934, telephone companies are prohibited from giving out information regarding their customers' calling habits: whom a person calls, how often and what routes those calls take to reach their final destination. Inbound calls, as well as wireless calls, also are covered.

The financial penalties for violating Section 222, one of many privacy reinforcements that have been added to the law over the years, can be stiff. The Federal Communications Commission, the nation's top telecommunications regulatory agency, can levy fines of up to $130,000 per day per violation, with a cap of $1.325 million per violation. The FCC has no hard definition of "violation." In practice, that means a single "violation" could cover one customer or 1 million.

In the case of the NSA's international call-tracking program, Bush signed an executive order allowing the NSA to engage in eavesdropping without a warrant. The president and his representatives have since argued that an executive order was sufficient for the agency to proceed. Some civil liberties groups, including the American Civil Liberties Union, disagree.

Companies approached

The NSA's domestic program began soon after the Sept. 11 attacks, according to the sources. Right around that time, they said, NSA representatives approached the nation's biggest telecommunications companies. The agency made an urgent pitch: National security is at risk, and we need your help to protect the country from attacks.

The agency told the companies that it wanted them to turn over their "call-detail records," a complete listing of the calling histories of their millions of customers. In addition, the NSA wanted the carriers to provide updates, which would enable the agency to keep tabs on the nation's calling habits.

The sources said the NSA made clear that it was willing to pay for the cooperation. AT&T, which at the time was headed by C. Michael Armstrong, agreed to help the NSA. So did BellSouth, headed by F. Duane Ackerman; SBC, headed by Ed Whitacre; and Verizon, headed by Ivan Seidenberg.

With that, the NSA's domestic program began in earnest.

AT&T, when asked about the program, replied with a comment prepared for USA TODAY: "We do not comment on matters of national security, except to say that we only assist law enforcement and government agencies charged with protecting national security in strict accordance with the law."

In another prepared comment, BellSouth said: "BellSouth does not provide any confidential customer information to the NSA or any governmental agency without proper legal authority."

Verizon, the USA's No. 2 telecommunications company behind AT&T, gave this statement: "We do not comment on national security matters, we act in full compliance with the law and we are committed to safeguarding our customers' privacy."

Qwest spokesman Robert Charlton said: "We can't talk about this. It's a classified situation."

In December, The New York Times revealed that Bush had authorized the NSA to wiretap, without warrants, international phone calls and e-mails that travel to or from the USA. The following month, the Electronic Frontier Foundation, a civil liberties group, filed a class-action lawsuit against AT&T. The lawsuit accuses the company of helping the NSA spy on U.S. phone customers.

Last month, U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales alluded to that possibility. Appearing at a House Judiciary Committee hearing, Gonzales was asked whether he thought the White House has the legal authority to monitor domestic traffic without a warrant. Gonzales' reply: "I wouldn't rule it out." His comment marked the first time a Bush appointee publicly asserted that the White House might have that authority.

Similarities in programs

The domestic and international call-tracking programs have things in common, according to the sources. Both are being conducted without warrants and without the approval of the FISA court. The Bush administration has argued that FISA's procedures are too slow in some cases. Officials, including Gonzales, also make the case that the USA Patriot Act gives them broad authority to protect the safety of the nation's citizens.

The chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, Sen. Pat Roberts (news, bio, voting record), R-Kan., would not confirm the existence of the program. In a statement, he said, "I can say generally, however, that our subcommittee has been fully briefed on all aspects of the Terrorist Surveillance Program. ... I remain convinced that the program authorized by the president is lawful and absolutely necessary to protect this nation from future attacks."

The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, Rep. Pete Hoekstra, R-Mich., declined to comment.

One company differs

One major telecommunications company declined to participate in the program: Qwest.

According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest's CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA's assertion that Qwest didn't need a court order - or approval under FISA - to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers' information and how that information might be used.

Financial implications were also a concern, the sources said. Carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. The fines, in the aggregate, could have been substantial.

The NSA told Qwest that other government agencies, including the FBI, CIA and DEA, also might have access to the database, the sources said. As a matter of practice, the NSA regularly shares its information - known as "product" in intelligence circles - with other intelligence groups. Even so, Qwest's lawyers were troubled by the expansiveness of the NSA request, the sources said.

The NSA, which needed Qwest's participation to completely cover the country, pushed back hard.

Trying to put pressure on Qwest, NSA representatives pointedly told Qwest that it was the lone holdout among the big telecommunications companies. It also tried appealing to Qwest's patriotic side: In one meeting, an NSA representative suggested that Qwest's refusal to contribute to the database could compromise national security, one person recalled.

In addition, the agency suggested that Qwest's foot-dragging might affect its ability to get future classified work with the government. Like other big telecommunications companies, Qwest already had classified contracts and hoped to get more.

Unable to get comfortable with what NSA was proposing, Qwest's lawyers asked NSA to take its proposal to the FISA court. According to the sources, the agency refused.

The NSA's explanation did little to satisfy Qwest's lawyers. "They told (Qwest) they didn't want to do that because FISA might not agree with them," one person recalled. For similar reasons, this person said, NSA rejected Qwest's suggestion of getting a letter of authorization from the U.S. attorney general's office. A second person confirmed this version of events.

In June 2002, Nacchio resigned amid allegations that he had misled investors about Qwest's financial health. But Qwest's legal questions about the NSA request remained.

Unable to reach agreement, Nacchio's successor, Richard Notebaert, finally pulled the plug on the NSA talks in late 2004, the sources said.

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#72. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#69)

I have to agree, Peetie. Some of the conspiracy stuff does sound far fetched and I don't necessarily believe everything that's put out there (especially about the Jesuits :) but I do think that there's a ton of info to indicate that 9/11 was a manufactured casus belli. Sometimes these things are created or manipulated, like Pearl Harbor or the Maine in the Spanish American war - or the Bay of Pigs for that matter. All manufactured events or lies, or known about beforehand to bring about a war. It's not like this hasn't happened before, either here or in another country. It happens frequently.

I think a lot of people object to the "conspiracy theories" on the grounds that

1) the govt isn't that corrupt or evil 2) the govt isn't that competent 3) they couldn't keep a secret like that.

Well, as for number 1 - sure they are. We see that in so many ways everyday, esp with this administration. Would they deliberately kill 3000+ Americans to make billions of dollars and get a much desired war in the ME? Absolutely, I have no doubt about that at all.

No 2 - are they competent enough? sure they are. Even Dead Corpse shows us that the basic scheme is not difficult to bring about. It doesn't require much competency either to pull off such a stunt or to cover it up.

And no. 3 - Keeping a secret? Who's to say that many people knew about this in the first place? Most intelligence operations are performed by people in compartmentaliezd functions who may not even realize they're part of a bigger picture. The number of people who could plan or let happen a 9/11 could be far less than even 2 dozen. And if some of these people were from a foreign govt intel agency like Israel's Mossad, they might not even give a damn at all.

Conspiracies happen literally all the time, all over the world, and they have for all of human history. The govt story of 9/11 is itself a conspiracy theory. Every time more than 2 people get together to discuss a secret, or plan a secret operation - it's a conspiracy.

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-05-11   14:58:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: aristeides, Dead Corpse (#71)

Dead Corpse

You're not going to look at the evidence because your mind is made up?

But why is your mind made up?

It could have something to do with his name.

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

"If the president made us go to war with Iraq, why doesn't he go over there and fight the war?" Christian May [6th grader]

robin  posted on  2006-05-11   14:58:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: All (#72)

Oops, not the Bay of Pigs...the thing in Vietnam, damn I can't think of the name. Sucks to get old :)

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-05-11   14:59:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: aristeides (#71)

But why is your mind made up?

Yes. The evidence I have seen works for me. I don't feel a need to invent anything more.

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   14:59:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: robin (#73)

It could have something to do with his name.

Trite. Thoughtless. And juvenile.

No wonder you fell for the conspiracy nuts lies.

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   15:00:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: mehitable (#74)

Gulf of Tonkin.

Daniel Ellsberg has interesting things to say about that incident and the reaction to it in his recent book Secrets.

aristeides  posted on  2006-05-11   15:01:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: aristeides (#77)

Oh thanks, Ari, wrong body of water :)

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-05-11   15:03:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: Dead Corpse (#67)

Correction. I haven't read all of the conspiracy crap. Nor do I intend to. I don't need to eat a spoonful of sh*t to know that I'm not going to enjoy the taste.

I don't read that conspiracy crap put out by the government either. Any one with half a brain can see 9/11 was an inside job.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush

RickyJ  posted on  2006-05-11   15:04:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Dead Corpse (#76)

You chose your name for some reason, I was merely speculating.

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

"If the president made us go to war with Iraq, why doesn't he go over there and fight the war?" Christian May [6th grader]

robin  posted on  2006-05-11   15:06:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: mehitable (#78)

According to Haldeman or Ehrlichman (I forget which,) when Nixon talked about the "Bay of Pigs," that was generally his code for the JFK assassination.

aristeides  posted on  2006-05-11   15:08:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: Dead Corpse (#76)

No wonder you fell for the conspiracy nuts lies.

Robin has not fallen for any lies. The USA government did 9/11. If you can't see that then you are not intelligent enough to have a conversation with.

God is always good!
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush

RickyJ  posted on  2006-05-11   15:08:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: RickyJ (#79)

I don't read that conspiracy crap put out by the government either. Any one with half a brain can see 9/11 was an inside job.

Sorry to hear about your hemispherectomy, but that doesn't mean it was an "inside job".

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   15:08:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: mehitable (#72)

I agree that by "open mind," I certainly don't mean "credulous mind." There've been quite a few "blind allies" the 9-11 Truth Movement has gone down, and I don't propose to put my reasoning faculties on hold just because the older I get, the more I realize that "a government big enough to do things for you, is also big enough to do things to you."

But I think I was a lot more credulous when I simply swallowed whole the government's version of 9-11. It's not the case that I need "an excuse to hate the government." It's rather that before I needed---even desperately needed, given the horror of the 9-11 events---to believe the government and its version. Overcoming that need, which is the psychological foundation for our eventual enslavement, is the task for every man and woman who truly believes in our democratic republic. It is precisely the skepticism towards government that the Founding Fathers had that we need today in order to make sure that the great enterprise which they started endures.

"Expect the government to lie to you."

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2006-05-11   15:09:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: RickyJ (#82)

Robin has not fallen for any lies. The USA government did 9/11. If you can't see that then you are not intelligent enough to have a conversation with.

Ok. Good luck with that then...

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   15:10:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Dead Corpse, robin (#76)

Trite. Thoughtless. And juvenile.

No wonder you fell for the conspiracy nuts lies.

Get a sense of humor. This "asshole-and-lovin'-it" pose isn't winning you any friends here.

"Expect the government to lie to you."

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2006-05-11   15:11:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: Dead Corpse (#55)

Dead Corpse, I come in peace.

About 911, why do you have faith in their story when this government (actually a rogue military, industrial complex) has allowed a peasant army (illegal immigrants) to invade us, lie to us about Pearl Harbor (Day of Deceit. The Truth about FDR and Pearl Harbor. by Adm. Robert B. Stinnett), and the Gulf of Tonkin?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-05-11   15:12:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#86)

Get a sense of humor. This "asshole-and-lovin'-it" pose isn't winning you any friends here.

If I was worried about making friends, group think, and "getting along"... I'd stay over at FR.

You don't like my opinion on this topic, I'm fine with that. I don't actually care.

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   15:20:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Jethro Tull (#87)

I don't have "faith" in anyones story. The evidence I have gone looking for, including government, eye witness, and new reports, all point to the same thing. Hijackers, civilian aircraft, and big farking heavy objects falling down.

I think you people are ascribing a level of intelligence and competence to our government that there is ample evidence that they do not possess.

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   15:22:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Dead Corpse (#88)

You don't like my opinion on this topic, I'm fine with that. I don't actually care.

I'm fine with your opinion on 9-11. If you had bothered to read my other post to you, you'd know it was my opinion until a year ago. Let's not use "straw man" arguments, shall we? That too was something you should've left behind at FR.

I'm referring to your personal attacks on people here. This is a pretty tight-knit community of people who respect each other and are sensitive to one another's feelings. If you can't discuss an issue without being obnoxious, you should "actually care" about whether you're in the right place here.

"Expect the government to lie to you."

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2006-05-11   15:26:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#84)

I needed---even desperately needed, given the horror of the 9-11 events---to believe the government and its version

That is the crux. It's the natural desire and overcoming it can open such a can of worms that your head can hurt.

Hence,the natural defence psychological mechanism to not want to pull even on one ittsy bittsy string - in fear that once you start questioning, where do you stop?

Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-05-11   15:28:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Dead Corpse (#89)

OK, we agree on some things for sure. This isn't either, or stuff so civility is important to learning. We're *all* in that process, myself at the head of the line (g). That said, Larry Silverstein "pulled" down Bld. 7. WTF was that about? His own admission should have made him a subject of the 911 Commission, but it wasn't. This omission, for me at least, places the 911 Commission right along side the Warren Commission. Can we agree on that?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-05-11   15:30:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: Jethro Tull (#92)

Ya know, JT, part of the reason why conspiracy theories start and thrive in the first place is the piss-poor "investigations" our govt does of various events, or the obvious cover-ups they do of so many things. It makes people suspicious, and frequently rightly so.

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-05-11   15:32:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#90)

If you can't discuss an issue without being obnoxious, you should "actually care" about whether you're in the right place here.

Obnoxious? The wheels started coming off this thread about post 56. All of my posts before that are on topic and well reasoned. It wasn't until I started gettign a ration of crap about these 9-11 conspiracy theories that I started getting "obnoxious" in return.

If you guys are this touchy about your set in stone meme's, then maybe you are right. Maybe this isn't a good forum for me to participate in.

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   15:33:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Dead Corpse (#94)

The wheels started coming off this thread about post 56

Perhaps that's why you didn't answer my post 68.

OK, you're convinced the Govt is all upfront about 911 and telling the truth.

Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-05-11   15:35:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Dead Corpse (#94)

I do hope you stick around, DC. We all disagree on some things, of course. Another poster, Yertle Turtle, is a big anti-conspiracy guy. But yet, we agree on other things.

I think the big virtue of "4" is that virtually no one gets banned for presenting an opinion, unlike FR. I joined FR some time ago and was banned repeatedly for things as diverse as saying something negative about Bush, sticking up for Pat Buchanan, being pro Terri-Schiavo, and being against illegal immigration (yes! at that point I was actually called a racist and banned again). We don't do that here. It can get rowdy at times but that's what freedom is like.

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-05-11   15:37:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: mehitable (#93)

ME, you're so right....been there, done that (shitty initial investigations). And now with the net, the initial flow of information is contradictory, for sure. All that said, 911 is so full of holes it begs a close look, with an open mind. For me, Bld 7 was my awakening.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-05-11   15:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: swarthyguy, Dead Corpse (#60)

Every time I've looked at mine after take off, it has a msg like "Service unavailable" - there is no dial tone.

same here. not to mention the one where the fella supposedly called his mother and said mom, this is whoever giving her his first and last name. then asking, you believe me, don't you, mom? come on...the least they could have done is concoct a believable conversation. DC, i can see your mind is made up and closed.

christine  posted on  2006-05-11   15:41:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Jethro Tull (#92)

That said, Larry Silverstein "pulled" down Bld. 7.

Quote is out of context and does not refer to demolition, but stopping efforts to try and save the building.

Also, it takes a LOT of work to drop a building the size of WTC 7. Supports have to be cut, holes drilled, TONS of explosives would need to be brought in. Check out the TV show Master Blasters on the Discovery channel every now and then. Weeks worth of preperation go into even a simple demolition. It isn't as easy as strapping plastique to a few support columns and hitting the "bang" button.

However, setting fire to it and hitting it with mega-tons of debris would more than do the job. Further, there is at least one website out there that shows the BACK side of WTC7 with only a few small fires showing. Those fires had burned THROUGH from tthe other side.

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   15:43:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: swarthyguy (#95)

OK, you're convinced the Govt is all upfront about 911 and telling the truth.

Not at all. You missed my point.

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   15:44:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: christine (#98)

DC, i can see your mind is made up and closed.

On this issue? Yes. Until I see something more concrete that proves otherwise.

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   15:45:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: Dead Corpse (#94)

Obnoxious? The wheels started coming off this thread about post 56. All of my posts before that are on topic and well reasoned. It wasn't until I started gettign a ration of crap about these 9-11 conspiracy theories that I started getting "obnoxious" in return.

Naw, I'd say they came off at your post #61. So your obnoxiousness was a reasoned response to "crap" conspiracy theories? Or was it just a "quid pro quo" for others' incivility? Haven't made a case either way for your behavior yet, guy.

If you guys are this touchy about your set in stone meme's, then maybe you are right. Maybe this isn't a good forum for me to participate in.

So it's us skeptics that get upset whenever someone questions our "memes," eh? Still holding on to that "straw man" argument, aren't you? Well, whatever takes you to this conclusion: "Maybe this isn't a good forum for me to participate in." Yeah, maybe not.

"Expect the government to lie to you."

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2006-05-11   15:45:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Dead Corpse (#99)

Quote is out of context and does not refer to demolition, but stopping efforts to try and save the building.

Well, "pulled" means only one thing in the demolition arena. If LS meant something else, is there a better explanation available for us? I haven't seen it.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-05-11   15:47:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Peetie Wheatstraw (#102)

Deflect and Deny, Disparage and Distract.

A rather familiar MO, by now. Mind madeup, won't research further, but hasn't seen anything to dislodge his "meme" either.

ROFTLOL!

Pray you will never know, the hell where youth and laughter go - Siegfried Sassoon. Ypres, Autumn 1914.

swarthyguy  posted on  2006-05-11   15:47:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: mehitable (#72)

outstanding post, mehitable.

christine  posted on  2006-05-11   15:52:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Jethro Tull (#103)

Well, "pulled" means only one thing in the demolition arena.

Says who?

Also, how much would it take to get you to carry EXPLOSIVES into a burning building that was just heavily damaged and attmpet to carry out a demo job on it?

Occam is a Beyotch some times.

Captain Chris Boyle: "After that, we headed to Vesey and Broadway. That57;s where (Deputy) Chief (Tom) Haring was. He was starting to put together a command post.

Firehouse: Did that chief give an assignment to go to building 7? Boyle: He gave out an assignment. I didn57;t know exactly what it was, but he told the chief that we were heading down to the site.

So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn57;t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn57;t look good.

But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we57;re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn57;t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn57;t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I57;m standing next to said, that building doesn57;t look straight. So I57;m standing there. I57;m looking at the building. It didn57;t look right, but, well, we57;ll go in, we57; ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody57;s going into 7, there57;s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned. Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side? Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it. Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many? Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we57;ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

So we got water to 22, but then that57;s when they said all right, number 7 is coming down, shut everything down. I don57;t know what time that was. It was all just a blur.

Firehouse: Did they shut the tower lines and remove them from there? Boyle: No, just left them. Everything was left where it was. Just shut everything down, moved everybody back. Firehouse: Could you see building 7 again from there? Boyle: Seven, no. You got a half block away, you couldn57;t see it, couldn57;t see a damn thing. All we heard was they were worried about it coming down, everybody back away." -Firehouse Magazine (08/02)

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   15:58:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Dead Corpse (#106)

You know..here we can agree to disagree.. there are opinions on this, my own forum, that I disagree with but this is a free speech forum so.. we, christine and I, use a hands off approach in regard to moderating.. I at one time believed the official theory.. and at one time supported Bush wholeheartedly .. but I've drastically changed my ideas and my belief system.. so.. if you still are under the belief that 9/11 was as the administration says.. so be it.. one day you may change your thoughts on that .. who knows? We all were in that same boat at one time..

"The thing worse than rebellion is the thing that causes rebellion." Frederick Douglass

Zipporah  posted on  2006-05-11   16:02:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: BTP Holdings (#43)

The report seriously questions whether or not the suspect hijackers, supposedly trained on Cessna light aircraft, could have located a target dead-on 200 miles from take off point.

It needs to be noted that 9/11 was a crystal clear, beautiful blue sky day. Not a cloud anywhere near where I was living at the time in South Central PA. Visability would have been excellent.

If conditions were more nominal with visibility less than 10-15 miles, I'd be more inclined to agree.

Neil McIver  posted on  2006-05-11   16:15:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Zipporah (#107)

You miss understand, I think the Administration had foreknowledge. It is just that none, and I mean ZERO, or the conspiracy theories I have read about and research hold up to even a cursory glance at observable reality.

Occam again. Jihadi's flew planes into the Towers damaging them enough to cause complete structural failure.

Able Danger alone points out that forces in our own, corrupt, bloated government KNEW something was going to happen.

I don't need to spin fancy fairy tales to make things any worse than they already are.

Dead Corpse  posted on  2006-05-11   16:18:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Dead Corpse (#106)

then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors.

Here is a photo of the southeast wall of 7 taken after the collapse of the Twin Towers on 9-11. Show us where the 20 story hole was that would bring down 7. I can't even see one story gone---can you?Link to photo

"Expect the government to lie to you."

Peetie Wheatstraw  posted on  2006-05-11   16:20:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: Dead Corpse (#109)

If that's all there was to it, then why did those stock market spikes occur beforehand involving companies that would be affected by 9/11? That indicates definite foreknowledge by influential people in the stocks who are serious about moving money. As far as I know, there is no other explanation for the spikes.

Perhaps one of the more diligent 9/11 posters might post some links to the financial articles :)

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-05-11   16:21:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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