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Title: CAN A PERSON BE BOTH A CHRISTIAN AND A WICCAN?
Source:
ReligiousTolerance.org
URL Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcr5.htm
Published: May 18, 2006
Author: Onterio Consultants
Post Date: 2006-05-18 23:36:58 by Pandora
Keywords: None
Views: 5413
Comments: 61
A quotation: o "Harry Potter remains a hot potato, polarizing Christians left and right because of three words: wizards, witches, and magic. Deuteronomy 18:10-11 warns us to avoid engaging in pagan rituals and sorcery, and for sure, Christianity and witchcraft don't mix." o Deuteronomy 18:10-11: "There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer." Russ Breimeier Overview of "the problem" It is quite possible for a person to follow a syncretistic religion -- a faith involving elements from two or more religions. This is sometimes disparagingly called "shopping-cart religion." However, it is a common practice, particularly in the Far East. Many New Agers blend certain Christian and New Age beliefs and practices. So, a person could both: o Worship the Christian God, believing in the resurrection of Jesus, virgin birth, second coming and other historical Christian teachings. o Believe in selected elements from Wicca, such as respecting nature, caring about the environment, celebrating at solstices, equinoxes, harvest festivals, etc. However, they might not necessarily be viewed as a fellow Christian or a fellow Wiccan by more conventional followers of these two religions. Main difficulty -- beliefs in deity: Merging the conflicting beliefs about deity found in two religions is often the main problem area in creating a syncretistic religion: o Most contemporary Christians regard themselves as monotheists, and believe in the Trinity, composed of the Father God, his Son Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. These are three different persons within the same Godhead. The Bible, literally interpreted, describes "Wisdom" as a type of female Goddess who was present at the creation of the universe. However, she does not play a significant role in most modern Christian faith groups. o Wiccans believe in a duo theistic deity structure: a Goddess and a God. Further, the Goddess has three aspects: Maiden, Mother and Crone. They represent sexuality, fertility and wisdom. At first glance, the beliefs of Wicca and Christianity concerning deity appear to be hopelessly at variance with each other. But some Wiccans have been able to integrate Christian and Wiccan elements into a single spiritual path. Why conservative Christians may reject a Christian/Wiccan religious blend: Most Conservative Christians reject the concept that a Wiccan can be a Christian. 1 Some of the problem areas are: o As noted above under "quotes," many Christians believe that the Bible condemns Witchcraft. However, the practices that biblical passages -- in the original Hebrew and Greek -- condemn are really evil forms of sorcery and murdering people by poisoning. Both practices are forbidden to Wiccans. o Many define a Christian quite specifically. They include only those who have repented of their sins, has trusted Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and has accepted certain core traditional Christian teachings. (e.g. the Trinity, Incarnation, resurrection of Jesus, virgin birth, heaven, hell, sin, salvation, original sin, the existence of Satan as a living entity, etc.) Many of these teachings are incompatible with Wiccan theology. o Many conservative Christian denominations teach that women should not be in a position of power over a man, either in church, at work, or at home. Such a belief is totally at variance with Wiccan beliefs who generally believe in sexual equality. o Religious conservatives generally believe that homosexuality is unnatural, abnormal, chosen, changeable and intrinsically sinful. Most Wiccans disagree with these beliefs, accepting the findings of human sexuality researchers that a homosexual orientation is normal and natural for a minority of adults. Further, an adult sexual orientation not chosen and cannot be changed. o Many conservative Christians believe that various forms of divination are an integral part of Wicca. Since the Bible contains passages condemning many of the divination techniques which were in use in ancient times, they conclude that there is no room for Wiccan belief within Christianity. They overlook that some forms of divination were condoned by the Bible. One was even used by temple priests. Also, while it is true that some Wiccans engage in divination, not all do. o Wiccans would have to abandon many traditional biblical teachings in order to consider themselves to be Christian. However, millions of Americans already reject major portions of the Bible, and still consider themselves to be Christians. For example, most liberal Christians probably reject certain themes and stories in the Bible as being profoundly immoral and not representing the Will of God. These might include: genocide, human slavery, burning some hookers alive, whipping children with a rod, raping female prisoners of war, execution of non-virgin brides, executing people who work on the Sabbath, executing sexually active persons with a homosexual orientation, executing religious minorities, etc. It is clear that a Wiccan cannot consider themselves to be Christian without first rejecting much of the content of the Bible and many historical Christian beliefs. This would exclude them from the conservative Christian fold in the same way that liberal Christians are considered to be non-Christian or sub-Christian by many religious conservatives. Why liberal Christians may accept a Christian/Wiccan syncretistic religion: Among liberal Christians, the term Christian has generally been defined much more broadly. For example, some believers might accept as a Christian any person who holds Jesus in reverence, views him as the greatest of prophets, and tries to follow his teachings. Many Wiccans, Humanists, Unitarian Universalists are able to match this definition. Resolving the deity question Many Wiccans (perhaps most) believe that there is a single ultimate deity which/who is unknowable. A common Wiccan saying is that "All Gods are the ONE GOD." This deity is sometimes referred to as "The All" or "The One" and is often visualized as having two aspects: a male facet who is called the God and a female component, the Goddess. Christianity also teaches the existence of a single God. 2 But most denominations teach that God has a different internal structure. The Christian God does not have two aspects. Their God is a Trinity, composed of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. o About the male aspect of deity: There were about 50 gospels and dozens of letters and essays written by the early Christian church. However, only four gospels and various letters that were accepted into the Christian Scriptures (New Testament). Those four tell of a unified Christian movement which regarded Yeshua of Nazareth (Jesus Christ) to be the Son of God and a deity. Other documents -- which never made it into the official canon -- describe a divided Christian movement. They explain that, after Jesus was executed by the Roman Army, (circa 30 CE) and a few years before Paul returned to organize his churches (circa 35 CE), Jesus' disciples organized a reformed Jewish movement that is normally referred to today as the Jewish Christians. They regarded Jehovah, as described in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), to be a single, indivisible God. They regarded Jesus as a human, and a great prophet-king. Details are lacking, but they may well have regarded Wisdom as a type of female supernatural presence who was with God at the creation of the world - a type of Goddess. A Wiccan might consider these non-canonical gospels and writings to be accurate and adopt beliefs similar to those of the early Jewish Christian movement. Wiccans might associate Jesus with the male aspect of "The One." o About the female aspect of deity: Some Wiccans and liberal Christians believe that Jesus married Mary Magdalene. The marriage ritual at Cana described in the Gospel of John may have referred to their marriage. They honor Mary as the Goddess of Christianity -- as representing the female aspect of "The One." Others substitute or include: o Miriam, the mother of Jesus; o Sophia, the Goddess of wisdom who is described in a number of places in the Hebrew Scriptures as a separate, female personality; o Mother Earth; and/or o Asherath, a Goddess worshiped by many ancient Hebrews. 3 Considering Jesus as a wise teacher: Throughout the past 2 millennia, there have been many beliefs among Christians about the nature of Jesus of Nazareth. He has been considered by various Christian and secular groups as: o A religious King, o A God, o A Lord, o An itinerant rabbi in Palestine during the first century CE, o A native healer, o A gifted prophet, o A spirit being who only appeared to be a human, and o various combinations of the above. This diversity of thought continues today: o Some liberal Christians believe that Jesus was the greatest of all of the Prophets, but not the Son of God, and not a component of the Trinity. o Muslims believe that he was a great Prophet and teacher. o Most modern conservative and mainline Christians believe that he was God, one of three components of the Trinity (along with God and the Holy Spirit). Many Wiccans view Jesus as a great teacher and prophet. So, one could be a Wiccan, believe that Jesus was a great teacher, and be in accordance with many believers in the early Jewish Christian movement, and with some liberal Christians today. Their deity could then be "The One" with a male and female aspect. Resolving the 10 commandments problem: Some of the 10 commandments do present a problem: 1. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me." Interestingly enough, this passage seems to indicate that the author of the 10 commandments acknowledges the existence of other gods beside Jehovah. However, the commandment does seem to prohibit worshiping the Wiccan god and goddess, whose personalities are very different from Jehovah's. 2. Concerning graven images: Many Wiccans do use statues on their altars; these would violate the commandment. However, others use candles, feathers, etc. to represent the god and goddess symbolically ; these should present no difficulty. 3. Concerning taking the Lord's name in vain: This should not present a problem. 4. Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy. The ancient Hebrews were called by God to observe a special day of rest -- the Weekly Sabbath -- from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. They were also required to observe additional Sabbaths during the year which often fell on other days. Wiccans generally have a similar schedule of observances. Many cast a circle and perform rituals once a week. Many also observe four minor Sabbats at the equinoxes and solstices, as well as four major Sabbats that occur roughly halfway between an equinox and solstice. Some observe the approximately 13 full moons and/or the 13 new moons each year. The Wiccan timetable does not agree with the ancient Hebrew religious calendar. But then, neither do the Christian schedules. Most Christians have deviated from the Ten Commandments by observing Sunday as the weekly Sabbath. Most Christians no longer observe the other Sabbaths; they have substituted other holy days associated with Christmas and Easter. So, Wiccans are at least as closely in conformance with the Hebrew schedule as are most Christians. 5. Concerning the honoring of parents: Many Wiccans would have difficulty expecting children to honor very abusive parents, but then so would liberal Christians. 6. Concerning murder: The prohibition matches the Wiccan Rede because it does the ultimate harm to another person. 7. Concerning adultery: This also matches the Wiccan Rede because it harms a marital relationship. Actually, the Wiccan Rede is more demanding because it forbids all instances of adultery. The Seventh Commandment in ancient times allowed a married man to engage in sexual activity with a woman other than his wife, as long as the woman was neither married nor engaged. 8. Concerning stealing: Most Wiccans probably believe that stealing is acceptable in certain unusual circumstances - in life-threatening circumstances, for example. But then, liberal Christians would as well. 9. Concerning perjury: Again, this matches the Wiccan Rede. 10. Coveting the neighbor's possessions: In the original Hebrew, the word that is translated as "covet" contains the meaning of desiring inordinately -- a real craving. Many Wiccans would probably agree that obsessing over a neighbor's possessions is undesirable. However, Wiccans in general would reject the concept that a male neighbor's possessions include his wife and slaves. Wiccans would certainly have difficulty following all 10 commandments and harmonizing them with their own theological and moral beliefs. However, Christians have similar problems: most don't worship on Saturday; many have statues of the Virgin Mary and crucifixes. Yet they still consider themselves to be Christian. Handling important teachings of Jesus: Hell: Jesus is described as believing in a Hell where evil people will be tortured with fire, heat, and worms for all eternity. They will live in "darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30). The adjacent passage (Matthew 25:31-46) describes how those destined for heaven will be separated from those who will be sent to Hell on the basis of their works while on earth -- specifically their kindness to the poverty stricken, sick, disabled, imprisoned, and hurting. Essentially all Wiccans would assert that the existence of Hell is incompatible with their concept of a loving and forgiving Goddess and God. Liberal Christians generally regard the material about Hell in the Christian Scriptures (New Testament) to be symbolic in nature. The passages are seen to reflect the growing theology of the early Christian movement and may not represent the original teachings of Jesus. Other Christian denominations teach different views. A Wiccan can thus reject the Bible's concept of Hell and still agree with some Christian faith groups. Role of women: Generally speaking, the Hebrew Scriptures severely restricted the status and roles of women. Jesus preached a revolutionary message about gender equality. St. Paul continued these teachings, and put them into practice with the selection of many female co-workers. Subsequent authors, writing in the name of Paul, gradually reverted to teaching a subservient role for women. Many of the more liberal Christian denominations reject the Hebrew Scriptures' view of the status of women, and ignore the later Epistles in the Christian Scriptures. These are seen primarily as expressions of Jewish and Pagan culture from the first and second century CE. Liberals give much greater weight to the teachings of Jesus. Most Wiccans hold very strong beliefs in gender equality. They would feel more comfortable with the teachings of liberal Christian faith groups. Biblical teachings about Witchcraft Most conservative Christians believe that the Bible contains many specific condemnations of Witchcraft, and that these denunciations apply to Wicca as well. (e.g. Exodus 22:18 - "Thou shalt not allow a Witch to live.") Liberal theologians point out that the word in the Hebrew Scriptures that is commonly translated as Witch or Witchcraft really refers to the practice of reciting curses which are intended to hurt or kill other people. The Greek word in the Christian Scriptures that is translated Witch is unrelated to Wicca. It would be better translated as "one who concocts potions to kill people," or simply "poisoner." Such activity by Wiccans is, of course, prohibited by the Wiccan Rede which does not allow believers to harm, manipulate, control or dominate other people. It may be safely concluded that references to Witch and Witchcraft in the Bible do not relate to Wicca. Biblical teachings about divination There are many verses in the Bible that prohibit certain methods for foretelling the future by the ancient Israelites. These include Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 19:26-26; 19:31; 20:6; Deuteronomy 18:10-11; Isaiah 8:19 and Malachai 3:5. Of these, Deuteronomy 18 is perhaps the most important. They forbade the Israelites from engaging in eight specific practices. Various translations of the Bible use various ambiguous terms or phrases here: augur, black magic, calls up the dead, charmer, consults with spirits, divination, enchanter, fortune teller, interpret omens, look for omens, magician, medium, necromancer, observer of times, sorcerer, soothsayer, spiritist, weaves or casts spells, witchcraft, and wizard. The terms magician, sorcerer, spiritist, and witch have many different meanings. Clearly, translators have had a great deal of difficulty selecting unique English words or short phrases to match the Hebrew text. Returning to the original words: 1. yid'oni Making contact with spirits who are not of God. Some Christians may suggest that this clause might forbid the New Age practice of channeling. However, New Agers themselves are generally convinced that the spirits with which they deal are from God. 2. sho'el 'ov Making contact with the dead. This would probably prohibit a medium from contacting the dead, as in Spiritualism. 3. qosem q'samim Foretelling the future by using lots. This would condemn casting runes, using the I Ching or a similar system. 4. m'onen Predicting the future by interpreting signs in nature. (e.g. predicting the harshness of a winter by looking at moss on trees, or fur thickness on animals in the wild, or whether the groundhog sees his shadow). 5. m'nachesh Enchanting (perhaps related to nachash, a snake; i.e. snake charming). 6. chover chavar Casting evil spells by magical knot tying. 7. m'khaseph evil sorcery; using spoken spells to harm other people. 8. doresh 'el hametim Literally "One who asks the dead", probably via another method than sho'el 'ov. Divination techniques are used by many, but not all, Wiccans. They typically utilize only a few: #3 prohibits runes, perhaps tarot cards, the I Ching. #4 prohibits prediction of the future by interpreting natural signs. The Biblical passages appear to apply to persons who are directly engaged in the various practices (e.g. mediums, channelers, astrologers, etc.); they do not seem to refer to people who simply observe the activity being done by others. However, there are a number of instances in the Bible where respected leaders were involved in divining the future, apparently without any condemnations by God. Some are: o In Genesis 44:5, Joseph's household manager refers to a silver drinking cup "...in which my lord drinketh and whereby indeed he devineth". Later, Joseph accuses his brothers of stealing the cup, saying "that such a man as I can certainly divine [the identity of the thieves]". These passages show that Joseph engaged in scrying to foretell the future. o The Urim and Thummim were two objects mentioned in Numbers 27:21 and 1 Samuel 28:6 of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were apparently devices (perhaps in the form of flat stones) that the high priest consulted to determine the will of God. They might have worked something like a pair of dice. o The prophet Daniel was employed for many years in Babylon as the chief occultist to the king. He was supervisor "of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans and soothsayers". See Daniel 5:11. In conclusion, Wiccans could avoid the relatively few divination techniques that are forbidden. They could use those methods that Joseph, the priests and Daniel used. They could also use techniques that are not specifically prohibited. Or they might not directly use any method of foretelling the future and merely observe others. Christian Wiccan online resources: o The Witches' Voice list hundreds of Wiccan covens at: http://www.witchvox.com/ At least one Christian Coven is listed there. It is located in New England. o Wicca Forums has a section on Christian Wicca. See: http://www.wiccaforums.com under the heading "General Topics." o GoddessChristians is a Yahoo! group: "Balancing Goddess and God." It is for "Goddess worshipers, Christo-Pagans, seekers of Mother Earth, Mary Magdelene, Asherath." See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoddessChristians/ The Yahoo! group page refers to Jesus by his real name Yeshua of Nazareth: "Yeshua was an occult teacher of the ancient Mystery tradition. He was married to Mary Magdalene, the other half of the Messiah Archetype, both of them representing the Divine Energy as it Incarnates in both Masculine and Feminine forms. The wedding at Cana was theirs, some scholars and historians now say they even produced children." o The Cauldron and the Cross attempts to find common ground between Wicca and Christianity. See: http://www.geocities.com/ Books of Ann Moura: In her book "Green Witchcraft," she describes how her mother and grandmother were able to merge Roman Catholicism and traditional Witchcraft/Pagan practices and beliefs. The Christian belief in Jesus being born of the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit found resonance in the widespread Pagan belief that the God impregnated the Goddess who gave birth to the God. Her mother and grandmother looked upon the Christian Trinity as the male aspect of the divine and of Mary as the Mother-Goddess. Her book is: Ann Moura,: Green Witchcraft: Folk magic, fairy lore and herb craft," (1996). You can read many dozens of reviews and/or order this book safely from http://Amazon.com's online book store Conclusion Some Wiccans might feel comfortable considering herself/himself to be a Christian in the sense that they regard Jesus to be a great prophet and religious teacher, and that they attempt to follow his teachings. It appears to be impossible for a Wiccan to match the definition of a Christian that is used by conservative Christian faith groups. References 1. "Witchcraft," Part of a spiritual adultery bible studies series, at: http://www.acts17-11.com/ This is a conservative Christian essay which attempts to prove that Wiccans follow Satan. 2. J.C. Taylor, "A Christian Speaks on the faith and path of Wicca," James Taylor attempted to harmonize the ultimate deity of Christianity and Wicca. This web page included a rebuttal from a conservative Christian. This essay is no longer online. However, an archival copy is available at: http://www.hemisfear.com 3. "The Cauldron and the Cross," at: http://www.thewhitemoon.com/ 4. "Can you be a Wiccan and a Christian?" at http://www.spiritonline.com/ This is an exchange of opinions on this topic, mostly by Wiccans. 5. Norm Vogel, "Can you be a member of another religion AND a Witch?," at: http://www.normv.com/ 6. "Christian Magick and Perceptions," at: http://www.paganvillage.com/ This page is part of the Pagan Assistance Network. It currently contains three links to essays about how to combine Christianity and Paganism. 7. Witchcraft HQ has a listing of links to web sites on the topic of "Christian Witchcraft." Unfortunately, most of them involve conservative Christian attacks on Wicca. See: http://www.witchcrafthq.com/
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#22. To: A K A Stone (#17)
OK, so there is the problem. Suppose your wife pretended to be a Christian before the marriage but really wasn't. After the marriage you found this out. You would be married to a non-Christian but you could not divorce her without going to hell. Of course, you could not stay married either without going to hell. Would a legal separation save you?
OK, so there is the problem. Suppose your wife pretended to be a Christian before the marriage but really wasn't. After the marriage you found this out. You would be married to a non-Christian but you could not divorce her without going to hell. Of course, you could not stay married either without going to hell. Would a legal separation save you? Jesus never said you would go to Hell if you get a divorce.
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
But what if you elected to stay married. Wouldn't this volitional act be the same as getting married in the first place?
Of course not. From your post, he said there was no such thing as divorce. So what happens if you get one? Do you wink out into another dimension where divorce actually does exist?
1And he arose from thence, and cometh into the coasts of Judaea by the farther side of Jordan: and the people resort unto him again; and, as he was wont, he taught them again. 2And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. 3And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? 4And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. 5And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. 7For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; 8And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. 9What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. 10And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. 11And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. 12And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery. 13And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 14But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 15Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. 16And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. 17And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? 18And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 19Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother. 20And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth. 21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 22And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. 23And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! 24And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! 25It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. 26And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? 27And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. 28Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. 29And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life. 31But many that are first shall be last; and the last first. 32And they were in the way going up to Jerusalem; and Jesus went before them: and they were amazed; and as they followed, they were afraid. And he took again the twelve, and began to tell them what things should happen unto him, 33Saying, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be delivered unto the chief priests, and unto the scribes; and they shall condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles: 34And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again. 35And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire. 36And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you? 37They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory. 38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? 39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized: 40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared. 41And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John. 42But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. 43But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: 44And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all. 45For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. 46And they came to Jericho: and as he went out of Jericho with his disciples and a great number of people, blind Bartimaeus, the son of Timaeus, sat by the highway side begging. 47And when he heard that it was Jesus of Nazareth, he began to cry out, and say, Jesus, thou son of David, have mercy on me. 48And many charged him that he should hold his peace: but he cried the more a great deal, Thou son of David, have mercy on me. 49And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee. 50And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus. 51And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight. 52And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
Can you please show me where it says that in the Bible? Do you base that on the Bible? Which version of the Bible do you use or is it more than 1 version?
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
OK, so why do Baptists let people get divorced and remarry?
Becaue people regularly pervert Gods word and do what they want to do. Take the catholic cult for example.
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
Do you believe in the Rapture? Or that I may sell my daughter into slavery?
I do not believe in the rapture. I believe some people have confused the rapute with the second coming and made them into two separate events. I believe in the second coming. I think Matthew chapter 24 makes it clear. They ask Jesus what shall be the signs of the end of the world. He lays it out for them. It doesn't mention any rapture. Here is the text. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. Isa 19:2 Mark 13:8 Luke 21:10 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Dan 9:27,12:11 Mark 13:14 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Dan 12:1 Mark 13:19 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Isa 13:10 Mark 13:25 Luke 21:26 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Zech 12:12 Dan 7:13 Mark 13:26 Luke 21:27 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Deut 30:4 1 Thess 4:16,17 32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
Why do you ask that question?
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
OK, given that this passage has been around since at least 500 AD; what the passage talks about is over and done with - or else we have some 1500 year old people running around somewhere. Or do you interpret that passage in your own way. Put your own spin on it?
Go to the beginning of mark.....he is talking about a future event.....in the future when these things are happening then that generation shall not pass....I hope this helps you. Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? 5 And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: 6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. Isa 19:2 Matt 24:7 Luke 21:10
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
Still waiting on those Bible verses to back up your talk. Also still waiting on the Bible verse on god creating new races at the tower of Babel.
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
I already gave them to you.
God is always good! No you didn't. You just made a statement. You gave me no bible passages or verses.
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
Put it this way, if one legitimately thinks that a Christian can marry a non-Christian, then he/she is not a real Christian and never was one.
God is always good! Sorry, it doesn't read that way to me. But you are welcome to interpret it any way you please.
Wow your own personal religion not backed up by any words that Jesus spoke or any words in the Bible. You can't find it because its not there so you just go making stuff up.
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
Read it again. They ask Jesus what shall be the signs of the end. He starts describing the events. Then he says when these events are taking place at the same time then that generation shall not pass. I dont see what is so complicated about that.
Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson
I did. As I said, I don't see your particular interpretation. But every Christian sect has their own interpretation and you are perfectly welcome to yours. If you were to interpret it to say the moon is made of green cheese I would not be overly concerned. I have seen stranger things come out of religious frenzies.
Here's the Holy Bible verse you apparently need before you can believe the truth. If this is not enough for you then I can't help you. This is from the KJV. 1 Corinthians 7:39 God is always good! Can't he read the book for himself and find his own truth? Why must someone interpret it for him? Are you saying that we cannot trust God to guide him to the passage that God wants him to see?
He asked for it so I gave it to him. Now why does that upset you?
God is always good! It doesn't upset me at all. Here is what happened. I first noted the nature of the exchange: Stone: Wow your own personal religion not backed up by any words that Jesus spoke or any words in the Bible. You can't find it because its not there so you just go making stuff up. You: Here's the Holy Bible verse you apparently need before you can believe the truth. If this is not enough for you then I can't help you. And from this I inferred that you were trying to force your opinion of the matter onto him. My question was why? Is there some sort of contest here?
To be fair, it also looks like he was trying to force his opinion of the matter onto you.
Interesting.
I am not gay.
The answer is no. You can't remove Jesus from the rest of the Bible - i.e., the Old Testament. He himself said he came not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it. As far as we know, he kept the OT commandments for most things, but he wasn't a fanatic about it. He had common sense as well as divine sense. I have nothing against Wicca, I've had friends who have been Wiccans or pagans. If that's what they want to believe, fine with me. However, you can't believe in Goddess or pantheistic religions and believe in Christ and the Bible too. This comes from mental and moral confusion and the common American desire to have EVERYTHING and not pass any kinds of judgement or make any real, meaningful decisions. When you get married, at least in our culture, you make a choice to pick one person over everybody else. The same way with religion. If you pick an organized religion (I prefer disorganized religion myself) you pick THAT one. You can't just blend it with a bunch of other stuff - if you do - you've created a new religion. I don't object to that either, but let's be honest about it.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
Hey Trace, do you ever post on anything that's not about being gay? We might be interested in seeing your opinions on a broader range of topics. That's the only time I ever see you post.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
What do you mean? I post all kinds of stuff on LP that has nothing to do with the gay world. I come over here to relax. I am not gay, but studying gay issues is a hobby of mine. A casual interest I follow for fun. Hence, I post on the subject a lot when I am over here. By the way, did you know that King James of the King James Bible fame was gay?
I am not gay.
I don't go over to LP - or very rarely, so I only see you over here. Whenever, I see you posting here, it's usually about gay issues - which is fine, but I'd it would be nice to see your thoughts on other things as well. Yes, Ole King James was a flamer.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
Okay, let's define the term Witch back in the day. Here's what the definition is. A FRAUD. That's right, a FRAUD. A SHYSTER, A LIAR. A Witch, who practiced "Magic", or "Communed With The Dead", WAS A FUCKING LIAR. We have the same people TODAY doing the same things. Sylvia Browne, James Van Praagh, John Edwards, ANYONE who makes money selling people LIES AND CONS are WITCHES. The bible is a funny book, because it calles people names that just AREN'T Correct by today's standards. So can you be a Witch AND a Chistian? Ask Tolkein, he wrote several books about that sort of thing. In fact, Gandalf used the power of almighty God to ward off evil. So... Take it for what it is. Witches, and Warlocks? Just buzzwords for the same shit we have today. PEOPLE WHO ARE FULL OF SHIT. You can get no power from graft, greed, or the murder of small animals and people. There are no Demons or Devils out there. There's no such thing as Ghosts. In fact, if there's a book on it, then it's a scam. Just like all religions are scams. The God I put my faith in, and believe in doesn't really care about me, and I have to actually work at being a good person in order to gain his interest or respect. The God I believe in isn't found in a book, or a church. He doesn't need my money to spread his word. The God I believe in doesn't speak to people, because rare is it that he finds someone worthy to do his bidding. He sure as hell doesn't speak to GW, or Pat Robertson, as they've NEVER been worthy of anything but his contempt. MY GOD, will judge me, but not for what is found in a simple, poorly written book, but will judge me because I didn't believe the lies that others followed. I am a good person because I CHOOSE to be. Not because God commands it. When you CHOOSE the right path on your own without having to be prodded by God's word, or Fearful of his retribution, you have nothing to fear. So, this talk about fakery is amusing to me to say the least. I'm not railing on anyone here, just think that for all the worry people put out there about how others are going to offend God, they should be more worried about the things THEY are doing that might offend God.
Jesus said there is no such thing as divorce.
#23. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#22)
Jesus said there is no such thing as divorce.
#24. To: RickyJ (#21)
Of course you wouldn't and you know that!
#25. To: A K A Stone (#23)
Jesus never said you would go to Hell if you get a divorce.
#26. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#25)
#27. To: RickyJ (#18)
That can't happen. They may claim to be a Christian and marry a non-Christian but that all it is, a claim. A true Christian would not under any circumstances marry a non-Christian.
#28. To: A K A Stone (#26)
#29. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#28)
OK, so why do Baptists let people get divorced and remarry?
#30. To: A K A Stone (#29)
Becaue people regularly pervert Gods word and do what they want to do. Take the catholic cult for example.
#31. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#30)
#32. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#30)
Or that I may sell my daughter into slavery?
#33. To: A K A Stone (#32)
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
#34. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#33)
#35. To: RickyJ (#13)
No. If you marry someone that is a non-Christian then all that means is that you aren't a Christian
#36. To: A K A Stone (#35)
Still waiting on those Bible verses to back up your talk. Also still waiting on the Bible verse on god creating new races at the tower of Babel.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#37. To: RickyJ (#36)
#38. To: A K A Stone (#35)
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#39. To: A K A Stone (#34)
Go to the beginning of mark.....he is talking about a future event.....in the future when these things are happening then that generation shall not pass....I hope this helps you.
#40. To: RickyJ (#38)
Put it this way, if one legitimately thinks that a Christian can marry a non-Christian, then he/she is not a real Christian and never was one.
#41. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#39)
#42. To: A K A Stone (#41)
Read it again. They ask Jesus what shall be the signs of the end. He starts describing the events. Then he says when these events are taking place at the same time then that generation shall not pass.
#43. To: A K A Stone (#40)
The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#44. To: RickyJ (#43)
Here's the Holy Bible verse you apparently need before you can believe the truth. If this is not enough for you then I can't help you.
#45. To: Pandora (#44)
Can't he read the book for himself and find his own truth? Why must someone interpret it for him? Are you saying that we cannot trust God to guide him to the passage that God wants him to see?
"It was an interesting day." - President Bush, recalling 9/11 [White House, 1/5/02] More and more of our imports come from overseas. - George W. Bush
#46. To: RickyJ (#45)
He asked for it so I gave it to him. Now why does that upset you?
#47. To: RickyJ (#45)
#48. To: Pandora (#0)
Religious conservatives generally believe that homosexuality is unnatural, abnormal, chosen, changeable and intrinsically sinful. Most Wiccans disagree with these beliefs, accepting the findings of human sexuality researchers that a homosexual orientation is normal and natural for a minority of adults. Further, an adult sexual orientation not chosen and cannot be changed.
#49. To: Pandora (#0)
#50. To: Trace21231 (#48)
#51. To: mehitable (#50)
#52. To: Trace21231 (#51)
#53. To: Pandora (#0)
 | What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?. |
#54. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#53)
I think it's more than that, Tommy. From what I understand, Wiccas worship nature and nature gods and goddesses, and they have beliefs frequently in reincarnation and stuff like that. I think some of them think they can do magic, but I'm not sure that's a central tenet of theirs. Pandora can probably answer that.
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#55. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#53)
Just damn.. Darrin Stephens got so punked..
#56. To: Zipporah (#55)
This is a useful skill for any woman. My boyfriend thinks I'm psychic. I always know when he's up to something :)
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#57. To: mehitable (#56)
Well men aren't exactly bright when they're trying to hide something now are they?? (I won't give it away here though.. )
This is a useful skill for any woman. My boyfriend thinks I'm psychic. I always know when he's up to something
#58. To: Zipporah (#57)
Shhhhhhhhh....it's our secret :)
"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."
#59. To: mehitable (#58)
Gotcha..I'll never tell ;)
Shhhhhhhhh....it's our secret :)
#60. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#53)
Wicca attracts me because it's services involve naked women and the veneration of small, furry animals. This is much more interesting than some dumb sermon.
#61. To: Fun and Happy Balls (#60)
LOL!
Wicca attracts me because it's services involve naked women and the veneration of small, furry animals. This is much more interesting than some dumb sermon.
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