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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Absurdities of the Bible
Source: Infidels.org
URL Source: http://www.infidels.org/library/his ... _darrow/bible_absurdities.html
Published: Jan 01, 1901
Author: Clarence Darrow
Post Date: 2006-05-20 22:25:21 by Indrid Cold
Keywords: None
Views: 378
Comments: 35

Little Blue Book No. 1637

Edited by E. Haldeman-Julius HALDEMAN-JULIUS PUBLICATIONS GIRARD, KANSAS

Why am I an agnostic? Because I don't believe some of the things that other people say they believe. Where do you get your religion, anyway? I won't bother to discuss just what religion is, but I think a fair definition of religion could take account of two things, at least, immortality and God, and that both of them are based on some book, so practically all of it is a book.

As I have neither the time nor the learning to discuss every religious book on earth, and as I live in Chicago, I am interested in the Christian religion. So I will discuss the book that deals with the Christian religion. Is the Bible the work of anything but man? Of course, there is no such book as the Bible. The Bible to made up of 66 books, some of them written by various authors at various times, covering a period of about 1,000 years -- all the literature that they could find over a period longer than the time that has elapsed since the discovery of America down to the present time.

Is the Bible anything but a human book? Of course those who are believers take both sides of it. If there is anything that troubles them, "We don't believe this." Anything that doesn't trouble them they do believe.

What about its accounts of the origin of the world? What about its account of the first man and the first woman? Adam was the first, made about less than 6,000 years ago. Well, of course, every scientist knows that human beings have been on the earth at least a half-million years, probably more. Adam got lonesome and they made a companion for him. That was a good day's work -- or a day's work, anyhow.

From Rib to Woman They took a simple way to take one of Adam's ribs and cut it out and make it into a woman, Now, is that story a fact or a myth? How many preachers would say it was a myth? None! There are some people who still occupy Christian pulpits who say it is, but they used to send them to the stake for that.

If it isn't true then, what is? How much did they know about science in those days, how much did they know about the heavens and the earth? The earth was flat, or did God write that down, or did the old Hebrew write it down because he didn't know any better and nobody else then knew any better?

What was the heavens? The sun was made to light the day and the moon to light the night. The sun was pulled out in the day time and taken in at night and the moon was pulled across after the sun was taken out. I don't know what they did in the dark of the moon. They must have done something.

The stars, all there is about the stars, "the stars he made also." They were just "also." Did the person who wrote that know anything whatever about astronomy? Not a thing. They believed they were just little things up in the heavens, in the firmament, just a little way above the earth, about the size of a diamond in an alderman's shirt stud. They always believed it until astronomers came along and told them something different.

Adam and Eve were put in a garden where everything was lovely and there were no weeds to hoe down. They were allowed to stay there on one condition, and that is that they didn't eat of the tree of knowledge. That has been the condition of the Christian church from then until now. They haven't eaten as yet, as a rule they do not.

They were expelled from the garden, Eve was tempted by the snake who presumably spoke to her in Hebrew. And she fell for it and of course Adam fell for it, and then they were driven out. How many believe that story today?

If the Christian church doesn't believe it why doesn't it say so? You do not find them saying that. If they do not believe it here and there, someone says it. That is, he says it at great danger to his immortal soul, to say nothing of his good standing in his church.

The snake was cursed to go on his belly after that. How he went before, the story doesn't say. And Adam was cursed to work. That is why we have to work. That is, some of us -- not I.

And Eve and all of her daughters to the end of time were condemned to bring forth children in pain and agony. Lovely God, isn't it? Lovely?

Can't Believe Story If that story was necessary to keep me out of hell and put me in heaven -- necessary for my life -- I wouldn't believe it because I couldn't believe it.

I do not think any God could have done it and I wouldn't worship a God who would. It is contrary to every sense of justice that we know anything about.

God had a great deal of trouble with the earth after he made it. People were building a tower -- the Tower of Babylon -- so that they could go up and peek over.

God didn't want them to do that and so confounded their tongues. A man would call up for a pall of mortar and they would send him up a tub of suds, or something like that. They couldn't understand each other.

Is that true? How did they happen to right it? They found there were various languages; and that is the origin of the languages. Everybody knows better today.

Is that story true? Did God write it? He must have known; he must have been all-knowing then as he is all-knowing now.

I do not need to mention them. You remember that joyride that Balaam was taking on the ass. That was the only means of locomotion they had besides walking. It is the only one pretty near that they have now. Balaam wanted to get along too fast and he was beating the ass and the ass turned around and asked him what he was doing it for. In Hebrew, of course. It must have been in Hebrew for Balaam was a Jew.

And Joshua Said to the Sun, "Stand Still."

Is that true or is it a story?

And Joshua; you remember about Joshua.

He was a great general. Very righteous and he was killing a lot of people and he hadn't quite finished the job and so he turned to the mountain top and said to the sun, "Stand still till I finish this job," and it stood still.

Is that one of the true ones or one of the foolish ones?

There are several things that that does. It shows how little they knew about the earth and day and night. Of course, they thought that if the sun stood still it wouldn't be pulled along any further and the night wouldn't come on. We know that if it had stood still from that day to this it wouldn't have affected the day or night; that is affected by the revolution of the earth on its axis.

Is it true? Am I wicked because I know it cannot possibly be true? Have you got to get rid of all your knowledge and all your common sense to save your soul?

Wait until I am a little older; maybe I can then. But my friend says that he doesn't believe those stories. They are figurative.

Are they figurative? Then what about the New Testament? Why does he believe these stories?

Here was a child born of a virgin. What evidence is there?

'Twas the Fashion What evidence? Do you suppose you could get any positive evidence that would make anyone believe that story today or anybody, no matter who it was?

Child, born of a virgin! There were at least four miraculous births recorded in the Testament. There was Sarah's child, there was Samson, there was John the Baptist, and there was Jesus. Miraculous births were rather a fashionable thing in those days, especially in Rome, where most of the theology was laid out.

Caesar had a miraculous birth, Cicero, Alexander from Macedonia -- nobody was in style or great unless he had a miraculous birth. It was a land of miracles.

What evidence is there of it? How much evidence would it require for intelligent people to believe such a story? It wouldn't be possible to bring evidence anywhere in this civilized land today, right under your own noses. Nobody would believe it anyway, and yet some people say that you must believe that without a scintilla of evidence of any sort.

Jesus had brothers and sisters older than Himself. His genealogy by Matthew is traced to his father, Joseph, in the first chapter of Matthew. Read that. What did he do?

Well, now, probably some of his teachings were good. We have heard about the Sermon on the Mount. There isn't a single word contained in the Sermon on the Mount that isn't contained in what is called the Sacred Book of the Jews, long before He lived -- not one single thing.

Jesus was an excellent student of Jewish theology, as anybody can tell by reading the Gospels; every bit of it was taken from their books of authority, and He simply said what He had heard of for years and years.

But let's look at some things charged to Him. He walked on the water. Now how does that sound? Do you suppose Jesus walked on the water? Joe Smith tried it when he established the Mormon religion. What evidence have you of that?

He found some of His disciples fishing and they hadn't gotten a bite all day. Jesus said, "Cast your nets down there," and they drew them in full of fish. The East Indians couldn't do better than that. What evidence is there of it?

He was at a performance where there were 5,000 people and they were out of food, and He asked them how much they had; five loaves and three fishes, or three fishes and five loaves, or something like that, and He made the five loaves and three fishes feed all the multitude and they picked up I don't know how many barrels afterward. Think of that.

How does that commend itself to intelligent people, coming from a land of myth and fable as all Asia was, a land of myth and fable and ignorance in the main, and before anybody knew anything about science? And yet that must be believed -- and is -- to save us from our sins.

What are these sins? What has the human race done that was so bad, except to eat of the tree of knowledge? Does anybody need to save man from his sins in a miraculous way? It is an absurd piece of theology which they themselves say that you must accept on faith because your reason won't lead you to it. You can't do it that way.

We Must Develop Reason I know the weakness of human reason, other people's reason. I know the weakness of it, but it is all we have, and the only safety of man is to cultivate it and extend his knowledge so that he will be sure to understand life and as many of the mysteries of the universe as he can possibly solve.

Jesus practiced medicine without medicine. Now think of this one. He was traveling along the road and somebody came and told Him there was a sick man in the house and he wanted Him to cure him. How did He do it? Well, there were a lot of hogs out in the front yard and He drove the devils out of a man and cured him, but He drove them into the hogs and they jumped into the sea. Is that a myth or is it true?

If that is true, if you have got to believe that story in order to have your soul saved, you are bound to get rid of your intelligence to save the soul that perhaps doesn't exist at all. You can't believe a thing just because you want to believe it and you can't believe it on very poor evidence, You may believe it because your grandfather told you it was true, but you have got to have some such details.

Did He raise a dead man to life? Why, tens of thousands of dead men and women have been raised to life according to all the stories and all the traditions. Was this the only case? All Europe is filled with miracles of that sort, the Catholic church performing miracles almost to the present time. Does anybody believe it if they use their senses? I say, No. It is impossible to believe it if you use your senses.

Now take the soul. People in this world instinctively like to keep on living. They want to meet their friends again, and all of that. They cling to life. Schopenhauer called it the will to live. I call it the momentum of a going machine. Anything that is going keeps on going for a certain length of time. It is all momentum. What evidence is there that we are alive after we are dead?

But that wasn't the theory of theology. The theory of theology -- and it is a part of a creed of practically every Christian church today -- is that you die and go down into the earth and you are dead, and when Gabriel comes back to blow his horn, the dust is gathered together and, lo and behold, you appear the same old fellow again and live here on earth!

How many believe it? And yet that is the only idea of immortality that there is, and it is in every creed today, I believe.

Matter Indestructible And everything that is in the body and in the man goes into something else, turns into the crucible of nature, goes to make trees and grass and weeds and fruit, and is eaten by all kinds of life, and in that way goes on and on.

Of course, in a sense, nobody dies. The matter that is in me will exist in another form when I am dead. The force that is in me will live in some other kind of force when I am dead. But I will be gone.

That isn't the kind of immortality people want. They want to know that they can recognize Mary Jane in heaven. Don't they? They want to see their brothers and their sisters and their friends in heaven. It isn't possible. We know where our life began; we know where it ends.

We know where every individual life on earth began. It began in a single cell, in the body of our mother, who had some 10,000 of those cells. It was fertilized by a spermatozoon from the body of our father, who had a million of them, any one of which, under certain circumstances, would fertilize a cell.

They multiplied and divided until a child was born. And in old age or accident or disease, they fall apart and the man is done.

Agnostic Because I Must Reason Can you imagine an eternity with one end cut off? Something that began but never ended? We began our immortality at a certain time, when the cell and the spermatozoon conspired to form a human being. We began then. If I am not the product of a spermatozoon and a cell, and if those cells which are unfertilized produce life, and those spermatozoa that fertilized no life were still alive, then I must have 10,000 brothers and sisters on my mother's side and a million on my father's. It is utterly absurd.

Now I am not a revivalist. In fact, I am not interested. I am asked to say why I am an agnostic. I am an agnostic because I trust my reason. It may not be the greatest that ever existed. I am inclined to admit that it isn't. But it is the best I have. That is a mighty sight better than some other people's at that. I am an agnostic because no man living can form any picture of any God, and you can't believe in an object unless you can form a picture of it. You way believe in the force, but not in the object.

If there is any God in the universe I don't know it. Some people say they know it instinctively. Well, the errors and foolish things that men have known instinctively are so many we can't talk about them.

As a rule, the less a person knows, the surer he is, and he gets it by instinct, and it can't be disputed, for I don't know what is going on in another man's mind. I have no such instinct.

Let me give you just one more idea of a miracle of this Jesus story which has run down through the ages and is not at all the sole property of the Christian.

You remember, when Jesus was born in a manger according to the story, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem. And they were led by a star.

Now the closest star to the earth is more than a billion miles away. Think of the star leading three moth-eaten camels to a manger! Can you imagine a star standing over any house?

Can you imagine a star standing over the earth even? What will they say, if they had time? That was a miracle. It came down to the earth.

Well, if any star came that near the earth or anywhere near the earth, it would immediately disarrange the whole solar system. Anybody who can believe those old myths and tables isn't governed by reason.

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#1. To: Pandora, Ferretmike, Flintlock, A K A Stone, peteatomic, YertleTurtle (#0)

Ping-o-rama

I love children, but I can never finish a whole one.

Indrid Cold  posted on  2006-05-20   22:27:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Indrid Cold (#0)

Well, of course, every scientist knows that human beings have been on the earth at least a half-million years, probably more.

This article is unsubstantiated. No documentation. The "junk scientists" just expect us to take their word for it because they are wearing a little white lab jacket

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone  posted on  2006-05-20   22:36:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Indrid Cold (#1)

I'm a deist.

Carry on.

Clair, is it time?

rack42  posted on  2006-05-20   22:38:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: A K A Stone (#2)

Evolution theory has many holes. It should be abandoned. On this we agree.

Clair, is it time?

rack42  posted on  2006-05-20   22:41:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: rack42 (#4)

On this we agree.

I think we both think Bush sucks, so there is two.

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone  posted on  2006-05-20   22:50:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Indrid Cold (#0)

Good article.

The Church existed before the bible. The bible simply means book. It is better termed, the 'Canon' or 'list of books'. This list was argued about, and picked from, a large amount of material that was out there in the first several centuries after Jesus lived. From the historical works of Juvenal and others, we understand how early Christians understood the bible, and how they understood how to worship this messiah named Jesus of Nazareth. This early Christian knowledge of how a Christian understands the worship of God is called Tradition by Catholics and Orthodox Christians.

The bible is written in many different genres & forms. Some are poetic, some are parable, some are historical accounts, some are akin to eyewitness accounts of events. The bible should not be taken literaly. We are living out of context to the time of the bible. It was written two centuries in the past. However, we need to think and contemplate about what it has to say. If we don't question and think about what the bible is teaching, then we are missing a tremendous amount.

"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318

peteatomic  posted on  2006-05-20   22:51:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: peteatomic (#6)

The bible should not be taken literaly.

Yes it should!!! @$%@#$#@@

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone  posted on  2006-05-20   22:54:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: A K A Stone (#7)

Why?

"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318

peteatomic  posted on  2006-05-20   22:56:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: peteatomic (#8)

Because it is from God to mankind.

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone  posted on  2006-05-20   22:59:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: A K A Stone (#9)

The Church existed before the canon, and assembled the canon of books. It may be inspired by God, but it is neither written by God, nor is it written by the apostles themselves. The books of the canon were agreed upon to by early Christians to what they felt was the message of Jesus.

So, when you say 'it's from God to men', I agree-- however, it isn't so simple as that. What is God saying? What is the meaning of God? These are more complex.

"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318

peteatomic  posted on  2006-05-20   23:16:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: peteatomic (#10)

You're wasting your time arguing with the brainwashed.

Press 1 for English. Press 2 for Deportation.

mirage  posted on  2006-05-20   23:41:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: A K A Stone (#2)

The "junk scientists" just expect us to take their word for it because they are wearing a little white lab jacket

OK, let me get this straight.

Scientists working in the scientific community do "junk science".

Hysterical laymen, desperate to support their myths, do real science when they jump up and down and scream that an established fact isn't true unless it conforms to their myth structure.

So if a Scientologist jumps up and down and screams that operating theatans are the ultimate life form, then this is real science.

OoooooooK.

Anonymous Dead Indian  posted on  2006-05-20   23:54:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: peteatomic (#6)

This list was argued about, and picked from, a large amount of material that was out there in the first several centuries after Jesus lived.

You can get a copy of the books of the Bible that were kicked out at Borders. I was looking at it the other day. Actually pretty interesting. I am going to go back and pick it up.

Anonymous Dead Indian  posted on  2006-05-20   23:56:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#12)

Explain how the fossils got here. I think the flood caused them. Millions of dead things buried in mud laid down by water all over the earth. Even in the tallest mountains. Even in the deserts. Only the flood can explain that. Prove me wrong.

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone  posted on  2006-05-20   23:59:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: A K A Stone (#14)

Explain how the fossils got here. I think the flood caused them. Millions of dead things buried in mud laid down by water all over the earth. Even in the tallest mountains. Even in the deserts. Only the flood can explain that. Prove me wrong.

Modern science has explained that.

Now you prove them wrong.

The burden is on you to show how a an unproven myth that you favor is correct over over what the vast majority, the very vast majority, of the scientific community has concluded is correct.

Some people believe the world was regurtitated by a giant turtle. I feel no need to prove them wrong either. I would handle them the same way. I would ask to see their evidence.

And please, spare me the centuries long world wide conspiracy.

Anonymous Dead Indian  posted on  2006-05-21   0:04:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: A K A Stone (#14)

I think the flood caused them.

Prove to me that the flood took place and that it was world wide in scope. And don't resort to telling me that the Bible says so.

Anonymous Dead Indian  posted on  2006-05-21   0:06:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: A K A Stone (#14)

"Only the flood can explain that. Prove me wrong."

Physics and logistics prove you don't know squat. Where did the physical mass of water go after it globally flooded the planet? You actually need the proper physical volume of water in order to sheath the planet in that much H2O.

The wear also would bulge out at the equator due to the Earth's rotation, change the climate and weather patterns incredibly and cause the mass extinction of the Earth's plants as well as animals.

Water does not appear out of thin air or vanish into it. Increasing the physical volume of the planet then decreasing it is impossible to do in any event.

You also do not dilute the ocean's salinity then restore it magically, nor do plants anywhere take to the burn of being flooded by salt water very well.

I would take off those blinders of ignorance before you walk off a cliff somewhere, or hurt yourself by being blindsided by something you don't see. ;-D

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-05-21   0:13:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: A K A Stone (#14)

Stone, you are what Thomas Jefferson and the Enlightenment worked so hard to shuck off. Pandora is correct when she said it was people like you that Washington and Jefferson were thinking of when they wrote the First Amendment. And they didn't make it the First Amendment for nothing. There was no shortage of ignorant, pompous, self rightious, cruel, intolerent rapture monkeys in their world. They knew what they were dealing with.

The First Amendment is aimed directly at people like you. YOU! It is designed to stop people like you. That is why you find it so frustrating and can't seem to grasp what is going on.

Anonymous Dead Indian  posted on  2006-05-21   0:20:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#16)

Prove to me that the flood took place and that it was world wide in scope.

Well how else were the aliens who came to Earth and mated with human women going to be wiped out, along with their alien/human hybrid spawn?

"Bomb De-Fusing For Dummies, Chapter 1, Wiring: Red Before Yellow Kills A Fellow."

orangedog  posted on  2006-05-21   0:37:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Indrid Cold (#1)

It is possible to found a religion based upon intellect and inner experience. When I was a child, I developed an integrated theory of consciousness and physics. I remember telling my teacher that it was funny to me that people did not seem to realize that subjects and objects are not two separate things. We are merely focusing on one aspect and then on another. I took the biblical definition of spirit and defined God as Spirit which was my mind at its deepest level where there is no ego and no illusion of a subject-object split. I also believed that there was but one Universal Mind. I have had outer demonstrations to objectively prove what my inner experience was telling to be true. But this is not a religous forum. I do agree that the Bible is complete nonsense when it speaks of killing the non-Jewish people as the godly thing to do. Nor do I believe that Israel was given the land from the Nile to the Euphrates by God.

Horse  posted on  2006-05-21   0:56:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#13)

There are many 'books' out there (gospels according to so and so).

Does that make them so? For example, there is a Gospel of Mary. A Gospel of Judas. Why did the early Church pick the Gospels that they did?

People who think they are Christians (or aren't Christians) should think about it.

"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318

peteatomic  posted on  2006-05-21   1:06:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: peteatomic (#21)

I just read the Gospel of Mary. It really did sound like a historical account. Like somebody was setting down all the known details before they were forgotten. Really interesting. Read it in Borders and I an now sorry I didn't buy the book.

There are also the Nag Hammarabi Gnostic scrolls which seem to tell the same stories as the Bible, but sometimes give different motives or pull different lessons from them.

One I really like is the Gospel of St. Thomas the Contender. It is supposedly actual quotes from Jesus. A talking head that was recorded by St. Thomas the Contender. I was told this was the basis for the Course in Miracles and the Movie Stigmata.

All this stuff is on the web. Just google it.

Anonymous Dead Indian  posted on  2006-05-21   1:16:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#22)

This is good. Education is best.

There are a few books that are fake. Historians have done tremendous research and have a very evidence of what is thought as authentic.

The Gospel of St.Thomas is very fascinating-- it's also known as 'the sayings of Jesus'.

"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318

peteatomic  posted on  2006-05-21   1:56:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Indrid Cold (#0)

And Eve and all of her daughters to the end of time were condemned to bring forth children in pain and agony. Lovely God, isn't it? Lovely?

I have a hard time with the concept that others have to suffer for the sins of people they never even knew.

Diana  posted on  2006-05-21   4:43:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Indrid Cold (#0)

What evidence is there that we are alive after we are dead?

NDEs and other things.

Diana  posted on  2006-05-21   4:45:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Anonymous Dead Indian (#18)

Washington and Jefferson didn't write the first amendment. Learn your history before you come shouting your drivel.

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone  posted on  2006-05-21   9:55:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Ferret Mike (#17)

God rebuked the water. God is all powerful. He created the heavens and earth with words.

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone  posted on  2006-05-21   9:57:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Ferret Mike (#17)

You should stick to complaining about Bush you do that very well. But some of your other posts on religious topics make you look well.....stupid.

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone  posted on  2006-05-21   9:58:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: A K A Stone (#27)

"God rebuked the water. God is all powerful. He created the heavens and earth with words."

Water does not appear out of nothingness. Unless you are trying to explain away irrational and pointless religious delusion.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-05-21   10:18:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: A K A Stone, Anonymous Dead Indian (#26)

"Washington and Jefferson didn't write the first amendment. Learn your history before you come shouting your drivel."

He is correct, and lashing as a turn of phrase does not change the simple fact that the U.S. Constitution is there to protect smaller groups - in this case religious groups or groupings of people with opinions on religion - from the tyranny of the majority. The First Amendment protects smaller religions and people without religion from the toxic and tyrannical whims and caprice of larger groups.

Learn your Constitution and learn American history before you embarrass yourself in forum so horribly.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2006-05-21   10:23:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Ferret Mike (#30)

I dont think anyone should be forced to be any religion.

Error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it - Thomas Jefferson

A K A Stone  posted on  2006-05-21   10:25:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: A K A Stone (#27)

OK, God created the universe. Is it really important exactly how God created it? No, it isn't. The creation story in the bible is a story. It doesn't need to be 'literally' true to the smallest detail, to still be true.

"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318

peteatomic  posted on  2006-05-21   10:36:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Indrid Cold, Diana, Robin, All (#0)

Let me give you just one more idea of a miracle of this Jesus story which has run down through the ages and is not at all the sole property of the Christian.

You remember, when Jesus was born in a manger according to the story, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem. And they were led by a star.

Now the closest star to the earth is more than a billion miles away. Think of the star leading three moth-eaten camels to a manger! Can you imagine a star standing over any house?

Can you imagine a star standing over the earth even? What will they say, if they had time? That was a miracle. It came down to the earth.

Well, if any star came that near the earth or anywhere near the earth, it would immediately disarrange the whole solar system. Anybody who can believe those old myths and tables isn't governed by reason.

Links to selected authoritative web sites that present information on the history and astronomy of the:

Star of Bethlehem provided as a service by the Griffith Observatory.

http://www.griffithobs.or g/StarofBethlehem.html

"What was the Star?" is a nice summary of the history and astronomy by Frederick Larson.

http://www.bethlehemstar.net/

In four parts:

1: Setting the Stage To help you understand the Star

http://www.bethlehemstar.net /stage/stage.htm

2: The Starry Dance What the ancients saw

http://www.bethlehemstar.net /dance/dance.htm

3: The Day of the Cross The sky marked this death

http://www.bethlehemstar.net/day /day.htm

4: What Does this Mean? The fuller message of the Star

http://www.bethlehemstar.net/m ean/mean.htm

For another look at the birth of Christ, and the signs in the sky, here is an excerpt from David Chilton's online book DAYS OF VENGEANCE, as described in the Book of Revelation. Each section is a page, with footnotes, so you might have to jump around a little, or print it out, and cut it into pages. I don't think you will want to miss this:

[Revelation] 12:1-2 PART FOUR: THE SEVEN TRUMPETS

As the pregnant woman approaches the time to give birth, She writhes and cries out in her labor pains, Thus were we before Thee, O LORD. (Isa. 26:17)

As prophetic revelation progresses in Scripture, it becomes increasingly clear that the Old Covenant Church is laboring to bring forth the Christ (cf. Mic. 4:9-5:9): He was the basic prom- ise of the Abrahamic covenant. This is what Israel was waiting for, being in labor and pain throughout her existence. This is the most essential meaning of Israel’s history, apart from which it has no significance: the bearing of the Manchild (cf. John 16:20-22), the Savior of the world. From the protevangelium to the Flood, from the Abrahamic Covenant through the slavery in Egypt, the Exodus, the settling of Canaan, the Babylonian Cap- tivity, the return from exile, and the suffering under the Greeks and the Remans, Israel was laboring to give birth to the Christ, to bring in the Messianic age.

In the midst of the Church’s struggles, therefore, she cried out. This verb (Icrazd) has special significance in Scripture, gen- erally being used for an oath or the solemn proclamation of God’s revelation; it is often used of God’s servants speaking in the face of opposition.7 Here it has reference to the Church’s official declaration of the Word of God, the prophecy that she uttered as she travailed in birth. This was the essence of all pro- phetic revelation, to bear witness to the Christ (John 5:39, 45-46; Luke 24:25-27; Acts 3:24; 13:27).

It is important to recognize the relationship of all this to the very obvious astronomical symbolism in the text. The word St. John uses for sign was the term used in the ancient world to describe the constellations of the Zodiac; St. John’s model for this vision of the Church is the constellation of Virgo, which does have a “crown” of twelve stars.8 It seems likely that the

_______________

7. See, e.g., Matt. 27:50; Mark 3:11; 5:7; 9:24; 10:48; 15:13; John 1:15; 7:28; 12:13, 44; Acts 19:28, 32, 34; Rem. 9:27; Gal. 4:6; James 5:4; and see its use especially in Revelation: 6:10; 7:2, 10; 10:3; 14:15; 18:2,18-19; 19:17. 8. The twelve stars are: “(l) Pi, (2) Nu, (3) Beta (near the ecliptic), (4) Sigma, (5) Chi, (6) Iota – these six stars form the southern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. Then there are (7) Theta, (8) Star 60, (9) Delta, (10) Star 93, (11) Beta (the second magnitude star), (12) Omicron – these last six form the northern hemisphere around the head of Virgo. All these stars are visible ones that could have been seen by observers.” Ernest L. Martin, The Birth of Christ Recalcu- lated (Pasadena, CA: Foundation for Biblical Research, 2nd cd., 1980), p. 159.

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THE HOLY WAR 12:1-2

twelve stars also represent the twelve signs of the Zodiac, from ancient times regarded as symbols of the twelve tribes of Israel; in Joseph’s famous dream his father, mother, and the twelve tribes were symbolized by the sun, the moon, and twelve stars or constellations (Gen. 37:9).9 We have already seen how the divine arrangement of Israel’s tribes around the Tabernacle (Num. 2) corresponded to the zodiacal order of the constellations. 10 The Seventh Trumpet of 11:15 brought us to Rosh Hashanah: the Day of Trumpets, the first day of the seventh month, the first day of the new year, the Day of the enthronement of the King of kings in the New Creation. The statement that Virgo is “crowned” with the twelve constellations, therefore, “means that she is the one among the twelve who reigns at the time,” i.e. during the seventh month, just as “the Scorpion’s claws seem about to catch the Virgin.” 11 In terms of astral symbolism, therefore, the birth of the Messiah takes place on the Day of Trumpets.

It is interesting that by pursuing several lines of very con- vincing evidence, Prof. Ernest Martin carefully and painstak- ingly narrows down the probable date of Christ’s birth to sometime in September, 3 B.C. 12 Martin then adds the icing to the cake: “In the period of Christ’s birth, the Sun entered the head-position of the Woman about August 13, and exited from her feet about October 2. But the Apostle John saw the scene when the Sun ‘clothes’ or ‘adorns’ the Woman. This surely indi- cates that the position of the Sun in the vision was located some- where mid-bodied of the Woman — between the neck and knees. (The sun could hardly be said to ‘clothe’ the Woman if it were situated in her face or near her feet.)

“The only time in the year that the Sun could be in a position to ‘clothe’ this celestial Woman (to be mid-bodied) is when it was

_________

9. See Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, iii.vii.7, where he explains the twelve stones in the high priest’s breastplate, representing the twelve tribes of Israel (Ex. 28:17-21), in terms of the Zodiac. 10. See comments on Revelation 4:7; cf. Ernest L. Martin, The Birth of Christ Recahdated, pp. 168f. 11. Farrer, The Revelation of St. John the Divine (Oxford: At the Claren- don Press, 1964), p. 141. 12. It is generally held that Herod the Great died in 4 B. C., and therefore that Christ was born in 6 or 7 B.C. Martin, however, presents a detailed and persuasive case for Herod’s death occurring in 1 B.C. See his Birth of Christ Recalculated, pp. 26-131.

301

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12:1-2 PART FOUR: THE SEVEN TRUMPETS

located between about 150 and 170 degrees along the ecliptic. This ‘clothing’ of the Woman by the Sun occurs for a 20-day period each year. This 20-degree spread could indicate the general time when Christ was born. In 3 B. C., the Sun would have entered this celestial region about August 27 and exited from it about September 15. If John in the Book of Revelation is associating the birth of Christ with the period when the Sun is mid-bodied to the Woman, then Christ would have had to be born within that 20-day period. From the point of view of the Magi (who were astrologers), this would have been the only log- ical sign under which the Jewish Messiah might be born — espe- cially if he were to be born of a virgin. Even today, astrologers recognize that the sign of Virgo is the one which has reference to a messianic world ruler to be born of a virgin. . . .

“But there is a way to arrive at a much closer time for Christ’s birth than a simple 20-day period. The position of the Moon in John’s vision could pinpoint the nativity to within a day – perhaps to an hour period or less. This may seem absurd, but it is entirely possible.

“The key is the Moon. The apostle said it was located ‘under her feet.’ What does the word ‘under’ signify in this case? Does it mean the Woman of the vision was standing on the Moon when John observed it or does it mean her feet were positioned slightly above the Moon? John does not tell us. This, however, is not of major consequence in using the Moon to answer our question because it would only involve the difference of a degree or two. Since the feet of Virgo the Virgin represent the last 7 degrees of the constellation (in the time of Christ this would have been be- tween about 180 and 187 degrees along the ecliptic), the Moon has to be positioned somewhere under that 7-degree arc. But the Moon also has to be in that exact location when the Sun is mid- bodied to Virgo. In the year 3 B. C., these two factors came to precise agreement for less than two hours, as observed from Palestine or Patmos, on September 11. The relationship began about 6:15 P.M. (sunset), and lasted until around 7:45 P.M. (moonset). This is the only day in the whole year that this could have taken place.”lJ

____________

13. Ibid., pp. 146f. What about December 25, the traditional date of the Nativity? As Martin demonstrates, there were numerous startling astronom-

302

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THE HOLY WAR 12:3

An added bonus: Sundown on September 11, 3 B. C., was the beginning of Tishri 1 in the Jewish calendar – Rosh Hashanah, the Day of Trumpets!

14 Martin summarizes: “The central theme of the Day of Trumpets is clearly that of enthronement of the great King of kings. This was the general understanding of the day in early Judaism – and it certainly is that of the New Testa- ment. In Revelation 11:15 the seventh angel sounds his ‘last trump’ and the kingdoms of this world become those of Christ. This happens at a time when a woman is seen in heaven with twelve stars around her head and the Sun mid- bodied to her, with the Moon under her feet. This is clearly a New Moon scene for the Day of Trumpets.” 15 3 St. John sees another sign . . . in heaven: a great red Dragon. As he explains in v. 9, the Dragon is none other than “the Serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan,” the enemy of God and His people. St. John reveals him as the power be- hind the imperial thrones of the ancient world that persecuted the Church; for, like the four Beast-empires of Daniel’s proph- ecy, the Dragon has seven heads and ten horns: Daniel’s beasts possessed seven heads among them (the third beast having four), and the fourth beast had ten horns (Dan. 7:3-7). Baby- lon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome were all stages in the Dragon’s attempt to establish his illicit empire over the world. (The significance of the seven heads is thus not simply that the Dragon is hard to kill, but rather that he is identified with the terrible beasts of Daniel’s vision; cf. the “heads” of the Dragon in Ps. 74:13 -15.) He was the great Beast, of which they had been only partial images. It was he who had been the agelong enemy of the people of God. In all Israel’s struggles against Beasts,

____________

ical phenomena taking place during the years 3-2 B.C. Chief among these celestial events was the fact that Jupiter, recognized by Jews and Gentiles alike as the “Planet of the Messiah:’ was located in Virgo’s womb and standing still, directly over Bethlehem, on December 25, 2 B. C., when the Child was a little over a year old. (Matthew states that the holy family was settled in a house, not in a stable, by the time the Magi visited [Matt. 2:11]. Moreover, Herod ordered the slaughter of the innocents “from two years old and under, accord- ing to the time which he had ascertained from the Magi” [Matt. 2:16], in- dicating that the Child was no longer a newborn.) For a full account of the as- tronomical events of 3-2 B.c., see Martin, pp. 4-25, 144-77. 14. Ibid., pp. 152ff. 15. Ibid., p. 158.

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Book starts here:

http://www.entrewave .com/freebooks/docs/2226_47e.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-05-23   21:49:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#33)

Thanks for the wonderful star links. Griffith Observatory was a school trip for me as a public school child. I remember trying to "save" the local rabbi's daughter while sitting in a very slow schoolbus on the way up the winding hill to the planetarium. I didn't try that again! Not until Campus Crusade for Christ one semester, and by then I was ready to quit organized religion of any kind! Not that I actually did.

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

"If the president made us go to war with Iraq, why doesn't he go over there and fight the war?" Christian May [6th grader]

robin  posted on  2006-05-23   22:30:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: robin (#34)

lol!

Actually this was the first I had seen the Griffith site. Pretty neat, I think. I've made copies. I've got some people I want to send them to. No rabbi's daughter on my list, however. I was reading the "Jews For Jesus" is Evil thread.....it appears anything one might say is wasted on them, and very much unappreciated, to say the least. Nothing new under the sun.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2006-05-23   23:30:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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