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All is Vanity
See other All is Vanity Articles

Title: I saw the weirdest f'ing thing tonight
Source: Me
URL Source: http://None
Published: May 24, 2006
Author: Me
Post Date: 2006-05-24 01:37:25 by Tauzero
Keywords: None
Views: 1116
Comments: 46

I was taking a smoke break from typing in a Robert Locke article, just before midnight central time tonight.

Standing on my back porch, I noticed an usually bright light low on the horizon, partly obscured by a tree.

I thought "Is that the moon?" No. A planet perhaps?

As I smoked, it wiggled a little bit. A bit more than a twinkling star appears to.

Soon it became clear that it was approaching directly towards me. As the angle increased, I at first thought it was moving very fast. I became able to resolve red and blue navigational lights within the brighter white light, so it was clearly a terrestrial aircraft.

But it was very quiet. I could hear no engine noise.

Before long, as the angle between its line of flight and my sight grew, and there was enough parallax to judge distance a little bit, it became obvious that it wasn't moving fast at all. It was very low.

The thing passed right over my house, couldn't have been much higher than the electrical towers nearby, which are close enough that I can hear their sizzle and hum in the wee hours. It occluded perhaps two handspans of the sky at arms length, so it wasn't tiny, and had a profile unlike anything I've seen before. From below it looked kinda like a manta ray.

The spookiest thing was how quiet it was, and the character of the sound. It wasn't any louder than the directionless background noise from the interstate about two miles away. Kind of a low hollow sound, of understated power -- I kid you not, a lot like how hovering UFOs sound in some sci-fi flicks.

So I scratch my head, finish my cigarette. Start another cig to ponder things.

Another odd bright light appears on the horizon, from almost the same direction.

I run in to grab a camera. But alas I'm no photographer, and the thing didn't get as close. Closest approach was more from the side, occluding about the width of my thumb. All I got was a few meaningless pixels.

Anyone have an idea what the hell this was? Why the hell are they flying over the Chicago burbs?

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#1. To: Tauzero (#0)

t wasn't any louder than the directionless background noise from the interstate about two miles away. Kind of a low hollow sound, of understated power -

Looks like some one is testing out their new propulsion system. Magnetodynamics possibly?

Least it didn't up link all your smokes.

tom007  posted on  2006-05-24   1:46:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Tauzero (#0)

.... couldn't have been much higher than the electrical towers nearby, which are close enough that I can hear their sizzle and hum in the wee hours.

Obvious physical trauma in and about the medulla oblongata due to the close proximity of high power transmissions lines coupled with heavy cigarette smoking creating insufficient oxygenated blood reaching the cerebral cortex.

Could be purple haze is in your mind.

buckeroo  posted on  2006-05-24   1:47:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Tauzero (#0)

A couple of years ago I read about experimental sort of blimp transport. The black triangles. Actually, it said they were shaped like giant guitar picks. They are supposedly a new kind of rigid airship that flys at extremely high altitude.

They glide back to earth and, consequently, make no sound coming in. They were reported to be huge.

People were seeing them somewhere in the South West, I forget where, but the sightings gave rise to the article. The writer said they had been on the drawing boards for decades. The design was supposedly viable and the author speculated that they were now being tested.

You might google 'Black Triangle', 'airship', 'transport'. You will probably get a lot of goofy UFO stuff, but the article might be there. I will go look for it now myself.

Pandora  posted on  2006-05-24   1:48:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Tauzero (#0)

Something came right up. Might be garbage, but the first skim looked interesting:

Investigation Casts Light on the Mysterious Flying Black Triangle By Leonard David posted: 07:00 am ET 05 August 2002

**

They are big, black, and triangular. In UFO folklore they are proof-positive that planet Earth is a rest stop for joyriding, but road-weary, extraterrestrials.

A just released study by the National Institute for Discovery Science (NIDS), based in Las Vegas, Nevada, sheds new light on the dark and mysterious craft. They offer a more down-to- earth hypothesis.

NIDS researchers contend that these type vehicles are lighter- than-air, blimp-style craft of the U.S. military's making. Likely powered by "electrokinetic" drive, the lifting body- shaped airships have been skirting the skies from perhaps the early to mid 1980s.

NIDS has followed up on their study of last year that correlated sightings of large triangular or delta-shaped objects with Air Force Materiel Command and Air Mobility Command bases throughout the United States. Matches were made suggesting flight paths in and out of certain base locations.

The new assessment focuses on what four police officers, and more than a dozen others observed on January 5, 2000: A large, silent, low-flying black triangular shaped object. It flew on a southwesterly direction between Highland, Illinois and Dupo, located less than 30 miles (48 kilometers) from St. Louis, Missouri.

Part of the flight path took the enormous object near the perimeter of Scott Air Force Base.

NIDS does not come up with definite conclusion regarding the origin of the object sighted in Illinois.

However, the reports jibe with over 150 separate reports of sightings of large triangular or deltoid shaped objects. Those eyewitness accounts, accumulated by NIDS, have mainly come from the United States. A small number of the sightings they have on file come from Canada and Europe.

Ballooning expectations

To bolster their case about military airships being taken for UFOs, analysts at NIDS make a historical note.

Lighter-than-air vehicles held all records for payload, distance, duration, and altitude within the first four decades of the 20th century - even with the advent of the airplane. In fact, save for rocket-powered research aircraft, like the X-15 and the space shuttle, all absolute altitude records are still held by high-altitude scientific balloons.

NIDS makes the case that Big Black Deltas, or BBDs, are U.S. Defense Department airships. They are so large they can carry massive payloads at low altitudes, cruising at speeds three to five times as fast as surface ships.

Among a range of NIDS observations, the group believes the BBDs are powered by electrokinetic/field drives, or airborne nuclear power units. These craft also fly at extreme altitudes, high above conventional aircraft and the pulsing of ground- based traffic control radar.

Elecrokinetic propulsion means that no propellers or jets are used. A hybrid lighter-than-air craft would rely on aerostatic, lift gas, like a balloon. No helicopter-like downwash would be produced. Except for a slight humming from high-voltage control equipment - and in older BBD versions an occasional coronal discharge - a Big Black Delta makes no noise.

Given a slew of BBD capabilities - from silent running, diminished drag, elimination of sonic shockwaves, to operation from ground level to full vacuum - NIDS calls for pushing this black world technology out into daylight for commercial benefit.

Wheat from the chaff

"What we're trying to do is transform unidentified flying objects, UFOs, into IFOs, or identified flying objects," said Colm Kelleher, deputy administrator for NIDS.

"We want to limit the number of cases that are unidentified in our data base. The more that are identified, obviously the less we have to work on. That's our prime motivation& to eliminate the wheat from the chaff," Kelleher told http://SPACE.com.

NIDS has amassed some 1,000 cases that are under review. Of those, about 200 are Big Black Delta sightings. In the last year or two, BBD reports have been on the rise.

Kelleher said that military may well be ready to take the wraps off the black triangle vehicles. The Illinois case, for instance, has been built on hours of public views of the mystery airship. "That's not exactly stealth mode. It's inevitable that it will be declassified," he said.

Leaping across the sky

"There appears to be an increase in deployment of these vehicles," Kelleher said. "The only time you see these things are when they are leaving or coming in. A lot of these sightings are at night. Our information is that they spend a long time aloft, weeks at a time. They can be thought of as ocean-going ships, rather than aircraft," he said.

Over the years, the BBDs appear to fall into different size categories. "The ones that dominate our database are very, very large. They are low-flying, silent, and are reported to be about the size of a football field," Kelleher said.

The BBDs have been seen accelerating very rapidly from a hovering position. "They can look as though they are leaping across the sky. Being silent, it's almost spooky," Kelleher said.

Heavy lifting

L. Scott Miller, professor of Aerospace Engineering at Wichita State University in Wichita, Kansas, said the idea of a large, still-classified airship floating about is on the mark.

"I do think that a large airship, with a heavy lift and other mission objectives, has been built," Miller told http://SPACE.com.

Miller is also a distinguished lecturer of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA), and specializes in black aircraft and the world of secret flight.

The NIDS research documentation parallels, about 50 percent of the time, a theory that Miller has detailed in his AIAA talks for some two years.

"Lockheed has shown a great deal of interest in airships for many years. The real question is whether the Department of Defense has committed to buy and use such machines," Miller said.

Stealth blimp

Large airships are of benefit to the military.

They are capable of carrying extremely large and heavy payloads at a reasonable speed, for which there is a real mission need, Miller said.

The U.S. airlift fleet is getting old, taking a great beating in the last 10 years in such locales as Iran, Bosnia, Kosovo, and Afghanistan. Some new aircraft are making it into the inventory, but they still have limits. For instance, to move loads of tanks and other gear requires lots of flights and support.

"An airship that could carry a large number of tanks, troops, and supplies into a region overnight would be fantastic," Miller said.

Miller does take issue with the NIDS study's view of a black triangle's propulsion. "Interesting, but I'm not sure it is necessary," he said.

"I suspect that a neutrally buoyant aerodynamically lifting airships using conventional prop-rotor systems would be useful in implementing a practical airship design," Miller said. Such a vehicle could be a cross between the V-22 Osprey - a craft having short wings and thrust vectoring rotors - and a blended wing aircraft, he said.

Miller said that by careful shaping, the systems used, and carefully orchestrating operational procedures, the vulnerability of an airship in a combat environment could be reduced.

"Low altitude flights, at night, and an awareness of enemy capabilities would be critical. Indeed, slow flight at the right time can render enemy radar useless. A 'stealth blimp' would be feasible in this respect," Miller said.

Black world wizardry

Still, the true nature and use of the black triangle craft remains a head scratcher.

"I suspect that the people in Illinois saw an airship of some type. Is it operational? I don't know. Would it be 'sexy enough' for the Defense Department inventory, compared to other high- tech aircraft like the B-2? I don't know," Miller said.

"Each sighting requires a great deal of analysis. A witness's perceptions of speed, acceleration, and size are likely of very little value," Miller said. "I have taken an approach of first identifying needs - or mission requirements - and technology availability. Then I compare those with the cold raw, simple facts of a sighting, not the conjecture or guess work of a witness," he said.

"I suspect that, as a result, perhaps up to 30 percent of the recent 'Triangle UFO' sightings are of black world aircraft, jets or airships," Miller concluded.

Pandora  posted on  2006-05-24   1:53:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Pandora (#4)

Sounds good to me.


The dictionary keeps shrinking. Now that everything is racist, we are surrounded; we can now shoot in any direction.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-05-24   2:00:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Tauzero (#0)

Here's another article: The speculation is these things [huge triangular blimps] are to do with homeland security and there is intense surveillance program that is escalating all the time in the post-9/11 era."

http://www.klas-tv.com/Global/story.asp?S=2592621&nav=menu102_1_4_1

Pandora  posted on  2006-05-24   2:02:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Pandora (#6)

The civilian spin-off: The Ionic Breeze by Sharper Image.


The dictionary keeps shrinking. Now that everything is racist, we are surrounded; we can now shoot in any direction.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-05-24   2:24:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Tauzero (#0)

Something resembling the object you described flew over Kaliningrad, Russia during a military parade, this was about 2 years ago, and was a mystery. This incident was reported in Pravda and other online sources.

Diana  posted on  2006-05-24   5:21:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Tauzero (#0)

Clearly it was piloted by "the Greys," and you have been kidnapped and "probed" and am suffering memory loss.

Check your butt for intrusion.

Freeper motto: "I read, but do not understand; I write, but make no sense."

YertleTurtle  posted on  2006-05-24   5:25:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Tauzero (#0)

i've seen something like that....thougth it was a plane...no noise...very bright, single light.... then all of a sudden, its gone, switched off or whatever.

'We shall no longer hang on to the tails of public opinion, or to a non-existent authority, on matters utterly unknown and strange. We shall gradually become experts ourselves in the mastery of the knowledge of the future.' ~ Wilhelm Reich

gengis gandhi  posted on  2006-05-24   7:01:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Pandora (#4)

Black ops aircraft is a good point. I believe some of the UFO sightings are definitely new aircraft in development.

"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318

peteatomic  posted on  2006-05-24   7:53:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Loner (#0)

UFO/ Ultrasecret aircraft bump.

"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318

peteatomic  posted on  2006-05-24   7:55:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Tauzero (#0)

One facet of UFO sightings that is pretty universal is the ability of the UFO to perform maneuvers or accelerate to amazing speeds, which no current man made craft could even imagine. For instance, one common example, and for a lack of no better words, is the 'blink out', when the UFO goes into a kind of hyperspace. Another example are UFOs 'turning on a dime' after traveling unbelievable speeds.

"That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves." Kim Stanley Robinson, "Green Mars" p318

peteatomic  posted on  2006-05-24   8:00:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: Tauzero (#0)

Send me your meaningless pixels. I can help you refine them.

What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-05-24   8:01:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: TommyTheMadArtist (#14)

It's here.

Reading what I wrote about trying to take a picture (the camera is an old Sanyo VPC-X350, and I had turned off the flash), and seeing the very few pixels I captured, I realize just how f'ing lame this sounds.


The dictionary keeps shrinking. Now that everything is racist, we are surrounded; we can now shoot in any direction.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-05-24   8:31:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: Tauzero (#15)

...I realize just how f'ing lame this sounds.

Having read tons of stuff on UFO's over the years, there are just too many strong, credible witnesses with the flip side being covered by governments that cannot admit they cannot control and a scientific establishment that insists in its infinite hubris that it has all the answers.

We have no agreed-upon scientific Theory of Everything and quantum mechanics is truly bizarre and not understood by probably any, which is to say that fact is likely much stranger than fiction.

By now, the FedGov spook scientists have probably figured some of it out and may even have prototype vehicles, so that can't be ruled out. But my belief and conclusion is that we're being monitored on a ongoing basis (high correlation between sightings and nuclear bomb/missile sites) with an appropriately jaundiced intergalactic eye insofar as the human race has this bad habit of killing each other individually and en mass. Kinda like Star Trek's Prime Directive, I suppose. If "they" wanted to eat us or conquer us, that long since would have happened, though the "alien abduction thing" also has more than a little credibility. It's so weird, though, that we can't get our mind around it and so tend to discount it IMO.

And this is definitely FWIW ...

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-05-24   9:03:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: peteatomic (#11)

Black ops aircraft is a good point. I believe some of the UFO sightings are definitely new aircraft in development.

I recall back in the 80s, I was living in Spartanburg S.C. on a cloudy night, I was outside in the front yard and an aircraft, similiar in shape to a C 141 was directly overhead close enough to where I could plainly see the flaps that cover the wheel bays and had I not looked up at that time it would have passed unnoticed. It made no noise. If it had been at an airport with a commercial jet aircraft, I would have had my hands over my ears. I called a friend of mine who was into airplanes and told him and he said he had seen it as well. Atmospheric conditions? Who Knows?

Rube Goldberg  posted on  2006-05-24   9:22:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Tauzero (#0)

Amazing. I've never seen anything like that, but I have always kept an open mind about such things. Where is a camera when you need one?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2006-05-24   9:27:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Tauzero (#15)

how interesting! i know you're not a kook, so i believe! Pandora's article sounds plausible.

christine  posted on  2006-05-24   9:40:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Rube Goldberg, SKYDRIFTER (#17)

what do you think, Sky?

christine  posted on  2006-05-24   9:57:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Phaedrus (#16)

And this is definitely FWIW ...

i enjoyed your comments.

christine  posted on  2006-05-24   10:00:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Tauzero (#0)

Alright. Who are you really, and what have you done with Tauzero?

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-05-24   10:30:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Starwind, Phaedrus, Starwind (#22)

As I calmly related this to my wife this morning, about 1/3rd of the way through she interjected in exasperation:

"You saw a UFO last night and you didn't wake me?!?!"

Yes, that's the kind of lame-o nerd I am.


The dictionary keeps shrinking. Now that everything is racist, we are surrounded; we can now shoot in any direction.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-05-24   10:40:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: christine (#21)

Meant to ping you too.


The dictionary keeps shrinking. Now that everything is racist, we are surrounded; we can now shoot in any direction.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-05-24   10:42:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Phaedrus, Tauzero (#16)

But my belief and conclusion is that we're being monitored on a ongoing basis

I agree. I read and heard that the govt uses technology to snoop with bird-like looking objects. When they are as small as insects, we'll need some strong mosquito netting.

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

"If the president made us go to war with Iraq, why doesn't he go over there and fight the war?" Christian May [6th grader]

robin  posted on  2006-05-24   10:46:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Tauzero (#23)

Yes, that's the kind of lame-o nerd I am.

She's lucky you're an INTP. We INTJ's couldn't be bothered to tell anyone else.

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-05-24   10:46:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Tauzero (#23)

So Starwind gets 2 pings and I get only 1?

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-05-24   10:47:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: robin (#25)

When they are as small as insects, we'll need some strong mosquito netting.

Freedom DDT...

"To wield onself -- to use oneself as a tool in one's own hand -- and so to make or break that which no one else can build or ruin -- THAT is the greatest pleasure known to man! To one who has felt the chisel in his hand and set free the angel prisoned in the marble block, or to one who has felt sword in hand and set homeless the soul that a moment before lived in the body of his mortal enemy -- to those both come alike the taste of that rare food spread only for demons or for gods." -- Gordon R. Dickson, "Soldier Ask Not"

Axenolith  posted on  2006-05-24   11:02:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Tauzero (#0)

T, you better check yourself from one of those implant things :)

Seriously, UFO's do exist - whether they're from another planet or the US govt, I don't know but neither scenario would surprise me. Considering how vast space is, I just think there's GOTTA be somebody else around. Don't know why they hang around earth though, but maybe we have some rare mineral they need.

"I woke up in the CRAZY HOUSE."

mehitable  posted on  2006-05-24   11:06:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Axenolith (#28)

When they are as small as insects, we'll need some strong mosquito netting.

Freedom DDT...

Oh I like that! Good code name.

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

"If the president made us go to war with Iraq, why doesn't he go over there and fight the war?" Christian May [6th grader]

robin  posted on  2006-05-24   11:08:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Phaedrus (#27)

Proof of poor eyesight. Mistook him for christine.

Just put me in a red uniform and send me into the cave. "Oh, that's curious -- aaaah!"


The dictionary keeps shrinking. Now that everything is racist, we are surrounded; we can now shoot in any direction.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-05-24   11:09:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: Starwind (#26)

:P

christine  posted on  2006-05-24   11:14:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: peteatomic (#12)

UFO/ Ultrasecret aircraft bump.

Once when I was San Luis Obisbo I looked up and saw a stealth bomber. No noise at all, just a coincidence that I looked up and saw the ragged boomerang shape This was shortly after it's existence was made public. Otherwise I would have put it down to a UFO.

Pandora  posted on  2006-05-24   11:44:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Tauzero (#31)

lol ... trying to keep a straight face but just gotta laugh.

Phaedrus  posted on  2006-05-24   12:04:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: mehitable (#29)

Don't know why they hang around earth though, but maybe we have some rare mineral they need.

All that alienation sends them in search of the bizarre, violent, and depraved.


The dictionary keeps shrinking. Now that everything is racist, we are surrounded; we can now shoot in any direction.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-05-24   12:17:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Tauzero (#0)

The spookiest thing was how quiet it was, and the character of the sound. It wasn't any louder than the directionless background noise from the interstate about two miles away. Kind of a low hollow sound, of understated power

A serious question, Did you feel anything as it passed over (compression waves or vibrations, however slight), and did you sense any change in sight, sound, feeling as it passed over (ie from a doppler shift reversal)?

(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)

Starwind  posted on  2006-05-24   12:22:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Pandora (#33)

Once when I was San Luis Obisbo I looked up and saw a stealth bomber. No noise at all, just a coincidence that I looked up and saw the ragged boomerang shape This was shortly after it's existence was made public. Otherwise I would have put it down to a UFO.

I saw one take off from Riverside AFB while driving a bunch of Jr High wannabe Basketball players to 29 Palms for a tournament. It was a known aircraft, but the entire car of kids could not believe how fast it took off and was just plain gone from sight. Really alien lookin'.

Guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism. – George Washington

"If the president made us go to war with Iraq, why doesn't he go over there and fight the war?" Christian May [6th grader]

robin  posted on  2006-05-24   12:26:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: Tauzero (#0)

Sounds to me like modified Tesla disks, or ufo's. Tesla invented them back in 1922.

Truthseeker

loner  posted on  2006-05-24   12:48:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Starwind (#36)

Did you feel anything as it passed over (compression waves or vibrations, however slight), and did you sense any change in sight, sound, feeling as it passed over (ie from a doppler shift reversal)?

Nope. Good questions. I hadn't thought of those. Well, maybe there was a slight doppler shift. But that may be just leading the witness.


The dictionary keeps shrinking. Now that everything is racist, we are surrounded; we can now shoot in any direction.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-05-24   12:52:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: loner (#38)

I'm going with the high-tech blimb theory.

The thing did have quite clear blue and red lights, one on the left and one on the right, just like a normal aircraft.


The dictionary keeps shrinking. Now that everything is racist, we are surrounded; we can now shoot in any direction.

Tauzero  posted on  2006-05-24   12:57:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Tauzero (#15)

Well I'll say this for your Sanyo Camera, it takes a damned good picture.

When I ramped up the PPI to 1200 Pixels per inch, It really showed the object, and even captured not only the shape of the object, but some of the underside.

I'm not sure if it's a plane or not, but I live in an area where planes go by with great regularity. If I can snap some pics of my own to compare the two, I will.

It's going to fricking rain again.

What's that Mr. Nipples? You want me to ask the nice lady about her rack?.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2006-05-24   18:01:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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